How to interpret Dr. Brown’s politiCostalim?

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MICHAEL L BROWN SHARES WHY EVANGELICAL CHRISTIANS SHOULD NOT SUPPORT #TRUMP

74 Comments

  • Troy Day
    Reply November 5, 2018

    Troy Day

    YES Jerome Herrick Weymouth but NOT old news We’ve been discussing it with Nelson Banuchi his love / hate relationship going on again Then Gary Micheal Epping pointed out his eschatology so ONE cant help but wonder a bit what’s going on http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/michael-l-brown-shares-why-evangelical-christians-should-not-support-trump/

  • Troy Day
    Reply November 5, 2018

    Troy Day

  • Troy Day
    Reply November 5, 2018

    Troy Day

    Gary Micheal Epping to answer your question again, I find this political fog making fogginess the least unbecoming Link Hudson made the comparison with Perry which Ricky Grimsley often make and I cant help but see in this “new” book just another money making red moon cash cow #sorry I’ve seen it before from Brown and find it unbecoming https://twitter.com/DrMichaelLBrown/status/1059209129775038464

    • Gary Micheal Epping
      Reply November 5, 2018

      Gary Micheal Epping

      I thought we were talking about the Rapture. What happened. it’s not a discussion of the life of Dr. Brown.

    • Troy Day
      Reply November 5, 2018

      Troy Day

      NO? Look at OP – the title literally says:

      HOW TO INTERPRET DR. BROWN’S POLITICOSTALIMS?

      You should start checking your facts ASAP – Brown may deny the rapture b/c he is simply a NAR post-mil – I would not call that Pentecostal by no means

      Dr. Brown, who is the lead apologist for the heretical movement, is unique among NAR leaders in that he enjoys close fellowship with non-charismatic evangelical leaders. For the most part, Brown denies that NAR exists or is a strange, convoluted conspiracy theory when in front of non-charismatics, but among NAR audiences, he recognizes its existence and embraces its chief leaders.

      For whatever reason, Dr. Brown chose to go on Alisa Childers’ podcast and debate whether or not NAR is a myth with Dr. Doug Geivett and Holly Pivec. Brown, who won’t typically debate any discerning Christians or those who won’t readily embrace him as a solid Christian brother, made the rare decision to interact with Geivett and Pivec, who wrote the book on NAR (literally).

      https://pulpitandpen.org/2018/04/24/dr-michael-brown-full-damage-control-mode-nar-debate/

    • Gary Micheal Epping
      Reply November 5, 2018

      Gary Micheal Epping

      Troy Day This is getting really off subject from his views on the Rapture. He says that it will not be pretrib, midtrib, but posttrib at the last trumpet. I think he is right.

    • Troy Day
      Reply November 5, 2018

      Troy Day

      Gary dont run away now 🙂 Look up the subject and tell me what it reads? Seems you are getting both topics confused here I call upon Neil Konitshek to speak again

    • Gary Micheal Epping
      Reply November 5, 2018

      Gary Micheal Epping

      Troy Day His views on the Rapture is the topic. You seem to be using diversionary tactics, like old Peter F, when you get put in a corner.

    • Troy Day
      Reply November 5, 2018

      Troy Day

  • Troy Day
    Reply November 5, 2018

    Troy Day

    Peter Vandever have you taken a look at his new book?

    • Peter Vandever
      Reply November 5, 2018

      Peter Vandever

      I have not. I have not read ANY of his political books. I am not a fan of politics for Jesus ministries.

    • Peter Vandever
      Reply November 5, 2018

      Peter Vandever

      With that said, Perry Stone is worst than Brown about being political.

    • Troy Day
      Reply November 5, 2018

      Troy Day

      Cant disagree Ricky Grimsley have even called him part of Deep-State-9 🙂 BUT does Brown really believe that OR wants a seat on Trump’s evangelical board? IDK

  • Troy Day
    Reply November 5, 2018

    Troy Day

    Peter Vandever we’ve been discussing with Nelson Banuchi Brown’s love / hate relationship with Trump. Here’s first look at his new book Just check out the Table of Contents and you can see the SHIFT. Makas one wonder if it does not reflect his FINAL shift toward NAR as well Gary you can check it out as well if you wish I am just trying to make sense out of it – That’s ALL #really

    https://www.amazon.com/Donald-Trump-Not-Savior-Evangelical/dp/0768449936

    • Gary Micheal Epping
      Reply November 5, 2018

      Gary Micheal Epping

      Troy Day One reviewer has a different take on the book than you..”Dr. Michael Brown is one of my heroes, and one of the wisest people who knows and helps me to understand “the signs of the times”(1 Chronicles 12:32). I would recommend anything written by Dr. Michael Brown!”

    • Gary Micheal Epping
      Reply November 5, 2018

      Gary Micheal Epping

      Troy, this should settle your argument that Dr. Brown is a part of NAR. Dr. Michael Brown recently comments, “That’s why I have raised my voice repeatedly in recent months to debunk the myth of NAR: What the critics describe simply doesn’t exist. To this day, when I bring up NAR to colleagues, either they have no idea what I’m referring to, or else they say, ‘That was Peter Wagner’s organization.’ Last year, some colleagues began sending me links to articles and videos attacking me as one of the leaders of NAR. Worse still, the websites claimed, I denied being part of it. How nefarious and dishonest of me! (To this moment, when I tell the truth about “NAR,” I’m called a liar. It would be very funny it wasn’t very sad.) I began to ask other colleagues about NAR (or, in full, the New Apostolic Reformation). Almost to a person, they responded, “What is NAR?” Yet they, too, were alleged leaders in this so-called world movement! How is it they never heard of it either? (According to the critics, all of us are lying about our involvement in NAR because we’re embarrassed by it. Honestly, these critics could make better use of their time writing a novel about the Illuminati.)”

    • Troy Day
      Reply November 5, 2018

      Troy Day

      So you agree with Brown, NAR is just a myth? Angel Ruiz

    • Peter Vandever
      Reply November 5, 2018

      Peter Vandever

      There is not such thing as NAR. It is a term that critic came up with.

    • Troy Day
      Reply November 5, 2018

      Troy Day

      sure there isnt 🙂 Angel Ruiz knows better

    • Gary Micheal Epping
      Reply November 5, 2018

      Gary Micheal Epping

      Troy Day yes.

    • Troy Day
      Reply November 5, 2018

      Troy Day

      Gary did you know they stopped making Mars bars? I loved to eat them while waiting on a game. Keeps you trigger sharp. BTW lots of fat on the game this year; much more like last year DO you too think more fat means much heavier winter?

  • Troy Day
    Reply November 5, 2018

    Troy Day

    who cares is Brown NAR or not?

  • Peter Vandever
    Reply November 5, 2018

    Peter Vandever

    Because it does matter. :0

  • Troy Day
    Reply November 5, 2018

    Troy Day

    I agree It matters IF Brown is NAR or not?

  • Gary Micheal Epping
    Reply November 5, 2018

    Gary Micheal Epping

    Troy Did you not read the quote from Dr. about NAR? The answer is no. I could ask if you you pro NAR and are just pretending to be otherwise. That is as big a lie as saying Dr. Brown is a part of NAR. Maybe we should ask Casper what he thinks about all of this.

  • Troy Day
    Reply November 5, 2018

    Troy Day

    Gary Micheal Epping I spent some times this afternoon to find ANY statement by Brown saying he is NOT NAR and could not. Can you point us to anywhere where he says it plainly?

    • Link Hudson
      Reply November 5, 2018

      Link Hudson

      Troy Day if you believe some church planter and missionaries are apostles does thant make you NAR?

  • Troy Day
    Reply November 5, 2018

    Troy Day

    Watch: Dr. Michael Brown – “Do You Agree with Bill Johnson on Dominionism?” Dr. Michael Brown interacts with Pastor Bill Johnson’s actual words on what he believes in terms of the church having “dominion” in the earth. Sure sounds like it Peter Vandever https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=_dw_PFKIfW0

    • Peter Vandever
      Reply November 5, 2018

      Peter Vandever

      Kingdom Now was actually preached against at Brownsville Revival School of Ministry.

    • Troy Day
      Reply November 5, 2018

      Troy Day

      Seems like things have changed a bit since then

  • Gary Micheal Epping
    Reply November 5, 2018

    Gary Micheal Epping

    Dang! I thought we were surely finished with this non sense, and ready to get back to Dr Brown’s video on if he believes in the Rapture. Who cares about an imaginary NAR? It is as real as Casper.

  • Gary Micheal Epping
    Reply November 5, 2018

    Gary Micheal Epping

    Peter I agree that revival is more important.

  • Gary Micheal Epping
    Reply November 5, 2018

    Gary Micheal Epping

  • Troy Day
    Reply November 5, 2018

    Troy Day

    Gary Micheal Let me point out WHAT is real and maybe that will explain why is it important for tomorrow

    A few years back the IHOP church left their historic pre-Trib position and moved to some sort of post-Trib It was obvious kingdom-now demoniion post-mil for any trained theologian. We spoke with Peter Vandever right then since he knows them @ IHOP and he said NO way. Sure enough less than 6 months later IHOP supported Ted Cruz whose father and whole upbringing is basically NAR IHOPKC still denies NAR affiliation – too bad because they just based their whole eschatology + social involvement after NAR Sounds like renting churches? Nelson Banuchi

    Several of us have noticed many going the same way Brown being one of them No one was gonna mention him since he flips and flops on theological issues BUT Gary mention him as leading authority on eschatology. It JUST happened to be that while flipping from pre-Trib to post-Trib Brown also flipped from anti-Trum to pro-Trump or did he? Who knows? And who cares? The important thing is that this flip comes just in time to server the 2018 elections as a rent-a-church and church followers

    As to the term NAR New Apostolic Reformation, its origins are directly from C. Peter Wagner (1930-2016) who took the idea from G12 while in South America and coined the term in 1994 after trying several alternatives such as “Neopentecostal,” “Neocharismatic,” “Independent,” “Post denominational” or “Nondenominational.” and Third-wave” (also a term coined by Wagner)

    He subsequently wrote of NAR in his books:
    The New Apostolic Churches (1998);
    Churchquake! (1999);
    Apostles and Prophets (2000);
    Changing Church (2004);
    and Apostles Today (2006).

    • Link Hudson
      Reply November 5, 2018

      Link Hudson

      I don’t know how IHOP would have ‘supported’ Ted Cruz with the way the IRS handles such situations. Did they have him speak?

      If I am not mistaken, Ted Cruz is Baptist, and his father, I have read, is in the NAR movement. Even if they outright endorsed his Baptist son, that doesn’t make them NAR< post-mil etc. (I'm not saying they aren't.) Political endorsement or letting someone give a testimony, etc. is not an necessarily eschatological endorsement. Saying something positive about a politician does not mean you endorse his dad's eschatology. 🙂

      Here's a question– if you are pre-trib, does that mean you can't try to elect godly candidates? Do you have to refrain from anything to make government and society more stable, less sinful, etc. so the world can get really bad quick so the tribulation can happen and Jesus can come back? I would imagine you could be pretrib and try to vote for godly leaders, etc. You don't know when Jesus is going to come back. You don't have to vote or refrain from voting to set things up so they will be ripe and ready for the man of sin to take over.

      You could be pre-trib and think it appropriate to have an impact on society, be salt and light in media, for example, or on the school board, right? Should all the pre-tribbers had decided to let Hitleresque philosophies or Communism take over the world in the 30s through the 50s? Do Christians fighting against human trafficking have to be post-tribbers, or can they be pretribbers to?

      I remember in the 1980's, Jimmy Swaggart addressed problems with Waltern Mondale's political stances on issues like abortion, and decried some of the immoral stances in government. He was very much pre-trib, but somewhat political in his preaching. I have read the Jerry Falwell also believed in a pre-trib rapture. I'm sure there have been many, many, many pre-trib preachers who have also tried to get people to vote for a positive change in the political arena. Does any call for Christians to have a positive impact through voting or civil engagement have to be interpreted as evidence of a post-mil viewpoint?

    • Troy Day
      Reply November 5, 2018

      Troy Day

    • Link Hudson
      Reply November 5, 2018

      Link Hudson

      Troy Day I’m not sure how this works, but I’d imagine a preacher as a private citizen can endorse a candidate without the church he goes to doing so. And I’d imagine the IRS is supposed to allow that.

      If Mike Bickle endorsed Baptist Ted Cruz, and Ted Cruz’s dad is in the NAR movement, I don’t think that is some kind of evidence for Mike Bickle or IHOP having NAR or dominionist leanings.

    • Troy Day
      Reply November 5, 2018

      Troy Day

      Ted Cruz baptist? His dad is NAR Nelson Banuchi has tagged them as churches for rent

    • Gary Micheal Epping
      Reply November 5, 2018

      Gary Micheal Epping

      Troy Day Michael Brown has always been posttrib and never was pretrib. He says that nowhere in the Bible does it say directly that Jesus is coming back before the Tribulation. However MAT 24:19 say He comes after the Tribulation.

  • Troy Day
    Reply November 5, 2018

    Troy Day

    In favor of what Peter Vandever has told us about IHOPKC, they have recently (2017) stated

    “We deny that the Church will take over all the governments of the earth before the return of Christ. In this we would differ from others who hold to more of a triumphalist eschatology that many organs of government will become Christianized before the return of Christ.”

    This clarifies it plainly. Perhaps Gary can ask Dr Brown for one such statement that could resolve the question. His new book however _leans_ toward dominionism in ways that nobody can tell you otherwise Is this just a coincidence with the 2018 elections?

    • Link Hudson
      Reply November 5, 2018

      Link Hudson

      Doesn’t say if they are premil or postmil, though.

    • Troy Day
      Reply November 5, 2018

      Troy Day

      well its pretty clear they are premil – says Christ comes back

    • Gary Micheal Epping
      Reply November 5, 2018

      Gary Micheal Epping

      I think we should run Casper as president of the NAR.

    • Link Hudson
      Reply November 5, 2018

      Link Hudson

      Troy Day There are amils who believe Jesus is coming back, too. They don’t believe in the literal milinneum.

    • Troy Day
      Reply November 6, 2018

      Troy Day

      Who are you talking about Link Hudson ? IHOP has clearly stated their position Where are you getting a-mil from Gary Micheal are you really saying NAR does not exist? 🙂

    • Link Hudson
      Reply November 6, 2018

      Link Hudson

      Troy Day you can sayNAR doesn’t exist if you do not believe it is a Reformation.

  • Troy Day
    Reply November 6, 2018

    Troy Day

    BTW Link Hudson What did you mean when you asked HOW they supported Ted’s taxes ? The same way many here support Trump’s cuts – they could care less for the poor and needy

    • Link Hudson
      Reply November 6, 2018

      Link Hudson

      Troy Day Ted’s taxes? I can’t find my post in this window on the phone. I meant how can IHOP endorse a candidate without getting in trouble with the IRS. Bickle is a private citizen. He is not IHOP or KCCF or whatever that church is called now.

    • Troy Day
      Reply November 6, 2018

      Troy Day

      the same way Trump never showed his taxes?

  • Troy Day
    Reply November 6, 2018

    Troy Day

    Gary Micheal Epping Peter Vandever Our friend Nelson Banuchi has received an answer to his question from Dr. Brown which we were asked to repost here for our readers to enjoy Here it is

    “Nelson Banuchi, thanks for your question! Yes, I’m quite aware of that video, which I watched more than once, and it’s still on our YT channel and our website because I wanted everyone to see what my position was and why I held to those views. That’s also why we reprinted all my early, anti-Trump articles in my new book. So, how did I end up voting for Trump, and why would I vote for him vs. Hillary again? These articles will help explain: https://askdrbrown.org/…/why-i%E2%80%99m-actually… and https://askdrbrown.org/library/why-i-will-vote-donald-trump. Also, https://askdrbrown.org/…/donald-trump-did-not-die-my-sins (I’d love to interact more, but time does not allow for that.)” ~Dr. Michael L Brown

    • Troy Day
      Reply November 6, 2018

      Troy Day

      Peter Vandever do you too get Error 404

      Nothing Found

      It seems that we can’t find what you’re looking for. Perhaps searching can help.

    • Gary Micheal Epping
      Reply November 6, 2018

      Gary Micheal Epping

      I think it is great Dr. Brown supports Trump. I do too. He is not NAR and neither am I. Is Troy NAR? Who is the boogy man that keeps floating all of the false media about the NAR, which is nothing but a myth and should be forgotten.

  • Gary Micheal Epping
    Reply November 6, 2018

    Gary Micheal Epping

    Dr. Brown has some advice for the NAR critics that are “scaring people with false accusations of a conspiratorial, worldwide, demonic movement,” some of which may be on this thread. He advises that they should “engage in constructive, fruitful interaction,” according to the following guidelines:

    First, get rid of the extreme rhetoric (“not Christian”; “aberrant movement”; etc.). You’re slandering your brothers and sisters.

    Second, drop the general term NAR. It’s ambiguous at best and misleading at worst and should only be used with reference to the organization once led by Peter Wagner.

    Third, don’t put widely disparate groups under the same heading. That only leads to confusion.

    Fourth, identify the beliefs or practices you question, be sure you rightly understand them from an insider perspective, then respond to them based on Scripture and fruit. Fifth, recognize the wonderful things the Spirit is doing around the world today. https://askdrbrown.org/library/dispelling-myths-about-nar-new-apostolic-reformation

  • Troy Day
    Reply November 6, 2018

    Troy Day

    Yet he never says he is NOT NAR 🙂 BTW if you noticed I did call for using the terms dominionism and kingdom-now, which are both prevalent in Dr. Brown’s new book on Trump Gary Micheal

    • Gary Micheal Epping
      Reply November 6, 2018

      Gary Micheal Epping

      Dr. Brown in that article does comment of dominionism, “I had seen articles on radical-left websites accusing political leaders like Ted Cruz of being part of “NAR.” By this the critics meant an alleged Christian dominionist movement that wanted to take over America. But that, apparently, was quite different than this new description of NAR, since most of its supposed followers are not dominionist.”

    • Gary Micheal Epping
      Reply November 6, 2018

      Gary Micheal Epping

      Another comment from the article indicates he is not a member of NAR, but also doesn’t even know what NAR is. He said, “So I continued to wonder, “What is this so-called NAR?” Last year, some colleagues began sending me links to articles and videos attacking me as one of the leaders of NAR. Worse still, the websites claimed, I denied being part of it. How nefarious and dishonest of me! (To this moment, when I tell the truth about “NAR,” I’m called a liar. It would be very funny if wasn’t very sad)… According to the critics, all of us are lying about our involvement in NAR because we’re embarrassed by it. Honestly, these critics could make better use of their time writing a novel about the Illuminati… Why are these critics making such outlandish charges?.. That’s why I have raised my voice repeatedly in recent months to debunk the myth of NAR: What the critics describe simply doesn’t exist.”

    • Troy Day
      Reply November 6, 2018

      Troy Day

      Gary Micheal you have obviously NOT read the new book yet. Let’s talk after you read it. Brown repents for his prior political stands Nelson Banuchi is talking with him as we speak

  • Troy Day
    Reply November 7, 2018

    Troy Day

    Poll: Trump would lose to every top Democratic woman including Michelle Obama, Hillary Clinton, or Elizabeth Warren

    https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-2020-poll-president-would-lose-against-every-democrat-woman-touted-2018-11

    Terry Wiles the stay-trib church of Link Hudson cant survive American elections but will survive the Tribulation Tell me another one

    It is my desire to follow the Word of God as closely as I can when deciding how I should cast my ballot. I will not vote according to any political party but to God’s Truth, knowing that whoever gets elected will have the power to make policy that agrees with God’s Word or disregards it.

    The Biblical Perspective on the Issues:

    I will vote for the most pro-life candidate possible, because God hates the shedding of innocent blood. (Proverbs 6:17)

    I will vote for the most pro-Israel candidate, because God blesses those who bless Israel and curses those who do not. (Genesis 12:3)

    I will vote for the most pro debt-reduction candidate, because the borrower is the servant to the lender. (Proverbs 22:7)

    I will vote for the most pro-work candidate because God says that if the man will not work, let him not eat. (2 Thessalonians 3:10)

    I will vote for the most pro-marriage candidate because God is for marriage between a man and a woman, as defined in Genesis 2:24.

    I will vote for the candidate who most closely believes government’s purpose is to reward good and punish evil. (Romans 13)

    I will vote for the candidate who stands up for Christian rights and will not discriminate against Christians, so that we may live a peaceful life in godliness and honesty. (1 Timothy 2:2)

    From Dominic Russo

    • Link Hudson
      Reply November 7, 2018

      Link Hudson

      The polls weren’t accurate for the last presidential election.

    • Troy Day
      Reply November 8, 2018

      Troy Day

      They were obviously right about this time claiming since amid 2017 Trump has lost the House. Not sure if this will be a big deal since GOP wasnt using the House anyway as they should have. The administration has been more of totalitarian than House of Reps. oriented. BUT who cares? – the big issue for me is what all this mean for the Church in America. So far Trump has been not one little bit helpful to the church in general. Sure, few advisers have been made to feel special. Dr. Brown has made some money writing books on both sides of the fence but has the church in general benefited in America – hardly so IMO… you?

    • Link Hudson
      Reply November 8, 2018

      Link Hudson

      Troy Day it may be less persecuted, fewer witchhunts for not cowtowing to the LGBT adenda than might have occurred otherwise. We can hope conservative judges cantry to help hold the fabric of civilization together.

    • Troy Day
      Reply November 8, 2018

      Troy Day

      I do hope so though we have not seen it yet but hoping to see more of it soon right? What is Donald Trump’s plan for America? http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/what-is-donald-trumps-plan-for-america/

    • Link Hudson
      Reply November 8, 2018

      Link Hudson

      Troy Day To ‘make America great again’, build a big wall on the southern border (he says), to try to create jobs and renegotiate deals with other countries in a way that is more favorable to our own. Those seem to be the big themes based on his campaign.

    • Troy Day
      Reply November 8, 2018

      Troy Day

      All I am asking is What’s all this to the church?

  • Troy Day
    Reply November 8, 2018

    Troy Day

    Gary Micheal Epping Peter Vandever RT Nelson Banuchi Acosta wasn’t disrespectful nor did he manhandle a woman as falsely charged by @PressSec; that was an outright lie. Agreeing w/the WH not only betrays a bias but also shows a deliberate refusal to face facts & a willingness to promote & encourage falsehood to obtain desired ends. Dr. Brown continues to disappoint me, not so much because he supports Trump but because he seems to fail, despite his (tepid) criticisms of Trump on Stream and elsewhere, to recognize what appears to be his own inconsistency with Biblical convictions and his seeming indifference to the facts (as exemplified with his agreement to suspend Acosta’s press credential while the video shows there was no valid reason to do so). https://twitter.com/DrMichaelLBrown/status/1060384765428334592

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