Click to join the conversation with over 500,000 Pentecostal believers and scholars
Click to get our FREE MOBILE APP and stay connected
| PentecostalTheology.com
Do you celebrate ASH WEDNESDAY?
Do you celebrate ASH WEDNESDAY?
Angel Ruiz
Where are all our Methodist, Lutheran and Episcopalian brothers at?????
Joseph Kidwell
No.
Frederic Buford
I don’t celebrate Ash. I use lotion to get rid of it…lol
Joseph Kidwell
LOL!!!
Daniel Blaylock
I’m a COG pastor (who attended Wesley Biblical Seminary).
Frederic Buford
No. Some churches in our fellowship do, but I’m old-school Pentecostal. We don’t celebrate that.
Ed Dowdell George
Yes
Joseph Kidwell
I’m with you, Frederic Buford.
Varnel Watson
Did JESUS ever commanded anyone to place an ash cross on their forehead?
Angel Bonilla
no, but He did not prohibited it either.
Angel Ruiz
Jesus did not command a lot of the thing we do…
Angel Bonilla
no, but He did not prohibited either.
Varnel Watson
Brody Pope ppl be paying more attention to ashes and crosses, than entire sanctification and speaking in tongues…
Daniel Blaylock
Sunday night we prayed several folks through to the baptism in the Holy Ghost with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues. Wednesday I received the imposition of ashes.
John Wesley, the preacher who revived the doctrine of entire sanctification for the church and from whom we Holiness Pentecostals inherited it, probably participated in Ash Wednesday services. 🙂
Varnel Watson
Are you saying that without administering ashes you would have not experienced those “several folks through to the baptism in the Holy Ghost with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues” and the second blessing?
Daniel Blaylock
No! I’m saying that observing some rich traditions that help us remember our own mortality and turn our hearts towards the cross are not a hindrance in any way to experiencing Pentecostal services. Your comment seemed to imply they are mutually exclusive. They’re certainly not at our church.
Daniel Blaylock
No, I’m saying that practicing some liturgical elements such as Ash Wednesday is not a hindrance to having Pentecostal services. Tradition is not the same as traditionalism!
Varnel Watson
So why adding a high church liturgy if NOT needed at all for the praxis of our faith?
Daniel Blaylock
Are the second blessing and baptism in the Holy Spirit the only thing needed for the practice of our faith? When did Pentecost get so reductionistic?
Joseph Kidwell
I don’t think that there is anything wrong with observing it. However, I personally find it totally unnecessary & really don’t see it as adding anything to our Pentecostal Faith.
Daniel Blaylock
I notice in your profile pic that you wear a collar clerical and shirt. “I don’t think there is anything wrong with it. However, I personally find it totally unnecessary & really don’t see it as adding anything to our Pentecostal Faith.”
Smile ?
Daniel Blaylock
I imagine it helps you build bridges in your particular ministry context and that’s why you do it. Adding some liturgical elements to our worship service helps me do the same in one of the oldest Catholic cities in America. ?
Joseph Kidwell
That is you’re right. However, for me, it has served a number of purposes & I would like to point out that Black Pentecostals have always worn collars, even in you’re denomination, Church of God. How do I know? Because I pastored the Cocoa Florida Office church in Pompano Beach Florida and was State Evangelist for 4 years. In both hospitals and jails it it serves to identify me as a member of the clergy. I have been asked multitudes of times by strangers for prayer in both of those settings as well as on the street. Also, I have been pastoring in inner city settings for decades and I do street evangelism. Once again, it serves to identify me, not as an insurance salesman or a detective, but a minister of the gospel. The clerical collar is not a vestment but a clerical. Learn the difference.
Joseph Kidwell
I did not say that it was wrong. I simply gave my personal perspective.
Daniel Blaylock
I actually don’t have any problem at all with your collar. I was just pointing out that in my context, it’s the same sort of issue as adding some liturgical elements. It fits both the context of my town and the unique blend of Christians from various backgrounds who found a home over the years at Forest Hill.
Angel Ruiz
Joseph Kidwell I,agree with you…. And i also agree with you Daniel Blaylock…. I see the richness and some liturgical practices but I as a Hispanic minister, ministering to Hispanic culture most of our congregants have come out of the Catholic faith. So in our congregations anything that associate with the Catholic Church it’s considered a taboo….
Joseph Kidwell
Angel Ruiz, I feel you. I came out of the United Methodist Church and associated anything that smacked of what I came out of with cold, dead dry formalism. I have my African-American brethren to thank for showing me that one can preach under the anointing in a pulpit robe.
Daniel Blaylock
Angel Ruiz , I’d feel the same way in your context. We have a Hispanic congregation under our covering. They are much less liturgical for that very reason.
Angel Ruiz
I do have a white color ministers uniform but I still find myself not brave enough to use in my conversation
Angel Ruiz
However I did have the opportunity to use the White Color uniform when a friend got ordination…. Assembly of Christian Churches Inc. They are a separation of the Assemblies of God
Varnel Watson
Angel This is exactly what I was thinking of posting this morning. Ministerial white clergy colors that are completely unnecessary, uncharacteristic for Pentecostalism and very very Catholic Joseph
Daniel Blaylock
Troy how do you explain that the largest Pentecostal denomination in the US, the Church of God in Christ, uses liturgical garb in more places than not?
Daniel Blaylock
Several older ministers in their movement have been against the trend, too.
Varnel Watson
Sours for your claim pls !!! Assemblies of God is the U.S.’s largest and fastest-growing Pentecostal denomination. Most clergy attire is purely cultural and has no spiritual significance. Lots of upcoming young ministers also take interest in similar liturgical elements which have nothing to do with true spirituality and do not contribute to it in any way thereof. Pentecostalism is not liturgical
In all essence, the praxis of liturgical elements withing the worship that have no clear Biblical grounds takes time and attention from the true move of the Spirit within the congregation. And in most cases, as the vail that hung in the temple these extra-biblical liturgical elements simply cover the long lost spirituality i.e. nothing of the Spirit left behind the vail, clergy color, crosses of ashes and dust to dust…
Daniel Blaylock
Troy, if Pentecostalism is truly a return to early church spirituality, it will contain liturgical elements. What makes a church dead and dry is not liturgical elements. I’ve been in many dead Pentecostal churches–and there’s nothing deader!
Varnel Watson
Early church – liturgical ? Where are you getting this from?
Daniel Blaylock
All churches have a liturgy, even low church traditions. Three songs, offering, special music, sermon–that’s a liturgy.
Even in the New Testament there are liturgical elements–the hymn in text of Philippians 2, the songs of Revelation. They celebrated communion at almost every gathering.
Perhaps you’re misunderstanding what I mean by liturgical. I’m not talking about a totally scripted service of rote prayer, readings, etc. Our services have liturgical elements (responsive readings, frequent communion, reading psalms together aloud, reciting the Lord’s Prayer together.
They are also marked by spontaneous messages in tongues with interpretation, services where the Spirit falls and there is no preaching, people saved, healed, delivered, baptized in the Spirit. We’re liturgical Pentecostals, our church is growing, and our tribe is increasing! Don’t tell me we can’t do it; we do it weekly.
Love you; not going to fight all night about it. Do what you like to stay the course.
Varnel Watson
Or perhaps you dont know what liturgical really is?
Daniel Blaylock
Troy Day, that’s doubtful. I graduated a Methodist seminary. Perhaps I’m not the one who doesn’t know…
Varnel Watson
Daniel Blaylock Most of us here have graduated from seminary and hold at least one doctoral degree. This attitude will not bring your much respect around here. The combination of litos and argos in ancient Greece was a public office performed by a rich Athenians voluntarily. It transferred to some of the early churches as lay-person ministry who had to follow a somewhat written clerical form hense called liturgy / liturgical reading. It had little to do with what you are describing from your tradition and was definitely rejected by early Pentecostal as a man-made creed. Now, per your OP are you aware that early Catholic tradition used the ashes of saints on Ash Wednesday?
Joseph Kidwell
Troy Day, you obviously know nothing about the Pentecostal movement among African-Americans. Secondly, I wear a collar that was designed by a protestant as it’s an Episcopal collar. Third, you need to lean the difference between vestments and clericals. Fourth, you can’t get any more Protestant than the Lutherans and most of their clergy wear collars. Fifth, you need to do some research before posting.
Daniel Blaylock
Troy Day, I’m not the one who copped an attitude and accused someone of not knowing what liturgical meant. You bit first friend.
Varnel Watson
One thing seem sure: ashes on the face do not produce humbleness of heart…
Daniel Blaylock
Troy Day no one said they did.
Varnel Watson
Too bad no one observed Ash Wednesday during the first century
Matthew 6:16 When you fast, do not look somber as the hypocrites do, for they disfigure their faces to show others they are fasting. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full.
Hypocrite is a Greek term for stage actors who darkened their faces with ashes when playing a darker character role or sad emotion. When masks were used, in many cases they were chiseled from the burnt wood used in temple idol worship especially when the theatrical role/character was related to a false Greek god. It was further believed that that deity would embody the actor during his performance.
https://www.workingpreacher.org/preaching.aspx?commentary_id=252
Daniel Blaylock
You are assuming that everyone who participates in an Ash Wednesday service does so from motives of pride and intent to be showy.
Did every person in the Old Testament rent their garments and dressed in sackcloth and ashes have a proud heart?
There are quite a few things we do today even in Pentecostal churches that they did not do in the first century.
And I’m aware of the etymology of “hypocrite”; even we humble M. Div. students took that course. ?
Daniel Blaylock
Troy, i’m done for the night. This conversation ceased to be edifying or productive about three posts back. I’m going to help my men prepare for a wild game dinner that our church is hosting. You can let me know if that is Penecostal or not, OK?
Varnel Watson
Angel Ruiz I think the discussion was helpful to establish that neither ashes nor colors no other liturgical element has any significance or place in Pentecostal worship As discussed with Walter Polasik and Dan Irving IF the systematic in Pentecostal theology is subjectionable how much more impossible is systematic liturgy and liturgical order in Pentecostal worship
Daniel Blaylock
But Troy, many of our churches are so scripted and time bound due to the restraints of multiple services, they already have a low church version of liturgy called an order of worship that often stifles what you seem to believe should be the norm for Pentecostal worship. When a clock starts cog bring down from 5:00 minutes on the back wall as the next portion of service begins, we’ve already moved away from that.
If we fail to acknowledge that, we discount the reality in hundreds of AG, COG, and independent Pentecostal church services. If we fail to acknowledge that thousands of African American Pentecostals do use the clerical attire and colors found in higher church traditions, we discount the lives reality of nearly an entire large denomination of Pentecostal Christians.
Even our aversion to man made creeds has changed historically. All major Pentecostal denominations have a statement of faith now. We found them just as necessary as our third and fourth century counterparts.
I guess the question is this:
Is Pentecostal worship what it was in 1896 or 1906? Is it what our textbooks say it should be? Or is Pentecostal worship the way we do actually engage in our various contexts on Sunday mornings in Pentecostal churches all over the world?
Varnel Watson
I disagree with your statement. I most certainly disagree that we should submit to any such trend and simply become a nominal “ash” church…
Daniel Blaylock
Troy Day no one said we should become nominal. Keep kicking that straw man
Angel Ruiz
Troy Day something I love about our Pentecostal heritage is that we can paint the most colorful pictures as we describe the Old Testament ceremonies… Pentecostals are the ones who find the most elaborate ways to preach Christ from the Old Testament ceremonies… I believe that as Pentecostals we have capability and imagination… To use the liturgy as an example of mans way to reach God… A few years ago a preached a sermon about ash Wednesday… Spoke of why, reasoning, the attitude and how they do the 40 day fast… “I said that to those who practice Ash Wednesday it is a reminder a point of contact for there spirituality but for us as Pentecostals who believe in the baptism of the Holy Spirit we don’t need the point of contact we are constantly reminded by the Holy Spirit… so we don’t have to practice Ash Wednesday” and all we did was 40 days of 6am prayer at the altar… I certainly agree with you Troy the liturgical elements I have no place in Pentecostal worship but we can really learn from them
Varnel Watson
A church having more people wearing ash cross than speaking in tongues is already a nominal church #noughsaid
Daniel Blaylock
Who said a Pentecostal church that chooses to add some liturgical elements such as this has fewer people speaking in tongues?
Varnel Watson
Well lets investigate: How many people in your church got an ash cross this past Wednesday? And how many people in your church speak in tongues? If you dont really know and have to really really think about it … Exactly my point! David Lewayne Porter Angel Ruiz
Daniel Blaylock
Troy, two of us got Ash and about two hundred of us speak with tongues.
Varnel Watson
Which means you did not even have Ash Wednesday as you were claiming above OR the 200 speaking in tongues saw no reason to be ash-ed …
BTW just out of curiosity HOW exactly do you count the speaking in tongues in your congregation? Do you have a special tongue counting person that goes around and listens to everyone? And how exactly that counting person determines if these are real tongues etc. Some establishment you are running there 🙂
Daniel Blaylock
I never claimed above that my local church had an Ash Wednesday service. It’s one of the many co cousins you’ve jumped to in this conversation.
I have several COG pastor friends who did. I attend an Ash Wednesday service every year. My church does quite a few liturgical things–Advent wreath, rich biblical liturgy at communion each month, other elements during Lent, Good Friday, and Easter season. We may add Ash Wednesday next year.
While we’re crunching the numbers…you said the majority of this group attended seminary and had doctorates. I noticed there are over 3,600 members in this group. Could you please list for me the 1,800 who have doctorates?
Daniel Blaylock
Troy, I count you as a brother and fellow laborer. Our conversation is once again producing more heat than light. We both have some deeply held beliefs around be this subject.
I imagine in a face-to-face conversation, we would be able to have a productive discussion about it. However, in this medium, too much gets misread because tone is hard to read in such a “text message” style interchange. And for me, it siphons too much time that rightly belong to others; that’s not your fault, it’s mine.
God bless you and Angel for all you do for the kingdom. Maybe one day the Lord will grant us a better opportunity to dialogue one day that would better contribute to unity and edification. I apologize if I have offended you.
Angel Ruiz
Brother in no way have offended me… You present your point of view and you give your reasons and only that you seek to bring out the Good in what you do… I am only 30 years old and I am learning from you guys…Daniel Blaylock, Troy Day you guys I am proud to call brothers in Christ….
Varnel Watson
I saw a good comment by bro. Robert Borders recently on the difficulty to have informed discussions nowadays. I wish I had saved it to copy here. Nevertheless, Pentecostalism had lots of legalism to deal with in its time and there’s no good reason to return to it or its nominal liturgical praxis. Talking about true Pentecostalism not this wishy-washy bapticostal charismata wanna-be we’ve been served on so often today. Just saying… http://www.theopenscroll.com/ashWednesday.htm
Varnel Watson
ASH What?
It’s not mentioned in the Bible. None of the apostles observed it. Nowhere are Christians commanded to keep it. It was not even officially practiced until nearly 1000 years after Christ’s resurrection. Like so many other non-biblical “Christian” customs, it has pagan roots. It’s a sad fact that modern Christianity has appropriated so many customs from the practice of the heathens, that one might wonder if it should still be called Christianity.
Pagan origins of Ash Wednesday
This ritual “imposition of the ashes” is purportedly in imitation of the repentant act of covering oneself in dust and ashes. Despite Christ’s command to his followers to abstain from the practice of disfiguring their faces during fasting, it has become a regular practice. He also told us to wash our faces during a fast.
The practice of putting ashes on one’s forehead has been known from ancient times. In the Nordic pagan religion, placing ashes above one’s brow was believed to ensure the protection of the Norse god, Odin. This practice spread to Europe during the Vikings conquests. This laying on of ashes was done on Wednesday, the day named for Odin, Odin’s Day. One of Odin’s names is Ygg. The same is Norse for the word Ash. This name Ygg, closely resembles the Vedic name Agni in pronunciation.
The Norse practice which has become known as Ash Wednesday was itself, drawn from the Vedic Indian religion. Ashes were believed to be the seed Agni , the Indian fire god. It is from this name that the Latins used for fire, ignis. It is from this root word that the English language got the words, ignite, igneous and ignition. Agni was said to have the authority to forgive sins. Ashes were also believed to be symbolic for the purifying blood of the Vedic god Shiva, which it is said had the power to cleanse sins.
In Pentecostalism we are given the dunamis / dynamite power of the Holy Ghost – no need for ash to ignite us
Thomas Henry Jr.
The same strawman argument can be made about so many authentic Christian practices that they are all rooted in pagans. e to this place – Where does Ash Wednesday or even Lent nullify the word of God? Guess what it does not. Fasting, sacrifice, penance are all biblical things. Again if you focus on the minors then you will end up in ENDLESS DEBATES like the heathens. Paul took an altar to an unknown God and preach Jesus.
I can take Ash Wednesday and lent and like Paul preach Jesus. Until you can show me it nullify the word of God and you cannot because it is does not do no such thing.
I see nothing wrong in its practice.
Matter of Fact – Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi, Lex Vivendi – How I pray or worship, determines what I believe and how I practice and live out that Faith.
We have too many shallow Christians as it is. If God under the law was not against feasts and ceremonies why would he be against it under the NEW. God is IMMUTABLE. He does not change.
Sadly, when I go to some churches they know more about speaking in tongues than they do about the cross of Christ and any other doctrine of the church.
It is my prayer that the church matures and become more like Paul who learn to used things like an Altar to an UNNAMED GOD to preach Jesus.
Thomas Henry Jr.
Yes the same argument are being made. As a black cleric, I have to deal with Black Hebrews and etc who argue that Christianity was entirely stolen by the “white” man from Egypt. We have for too long misconstrued the words of Christ about tradition and rejected everything.
You worshiping in a church and preaching from a pulpit is not there.
Music during worship in not in the New Testament
Choirs and Worship Team are not there.
I can go on and on and argue against things we as Pentecostals do that is not anywhere in the Scriptures and verses we twist to support some of our practices that we claim are of the Lord.
James P. White
I do, mainly because Luke 9:23 says to follow Jesus we should deny ourselves, so by fasting during Lent we can deny ourselves. I see Ash Wednesday as a way to kick off lent and a reminder to stay humble.
Varnel Watson
but is it evangelical?
Rafy Vazquez
I agree. But it also says to deny
ourselves daily, not only on Ash Wednesday.
Luke 9:23 (KJV) And he said to [them] all, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
Varnel Watson
so is it just for Catholics then?
Rafy Vazquez
Troy Day What does the passage in Luke say?
Eric Gonzalez
Great read, I always thought Ash Wednesday was a catholic holiday and can see the meaning and message of what this day means
Varnel Watson
indeed it is
Jeremiah Würz
Yes, as the beginning of Lent.
Varnel Watson
so are many other days before Lent
Ivory Jones
No!!!
Varnel Watson
why not?
Isara Mo
Nope. Nope. Nope
Varnel Watson
and why nope?