The gospels seem to attribute the conception of Jesus to holy breath (το γαρ εν αυτη γεννηθεν εκ πνευματος εστιν αγιου):
Yet Jesus’ father is not “the power of the most high” but rather the most high himself AND David:
Why isn’t the breath/spirit considered Jesus’ father? In these gospel passages is the breath/spirit a person? Or God’s “power” and creative “organ”?
This is the BDAG entry for the verb which appears in Matthew 1:20 as “conceived”:
γεννάω fut. γεννήσω; 1 aor. ἐγέννησα; pf. γεγέννηκα. Pass.: fut. pl.
γεννηθήσεσθε Sir 41:9; 1 aor. ἐγεννήθην; pf. γεγέννημαι (Pind.,
Hdt.+).—See ARahlfs, Genesis 1926, 39. Gener., to cause someth. to
come into existence, primarily through procreation or parturition. ①
become the parent of, beget ⓐ by procreation (oft. LXX, fr. Gen 4:18
on) Mt 1:2–20 (cp. Diod S 4, 67, 2–68, 6, the genealogy of the
Aeolians: 67, 4 Ἄρνη ἐγέννησεν Αἰόλον κ. Βοιωτόν; 67, 7 Ἱππάλκιμος
ἐγέννησε Πηνέλεων; 68:1 Σαλμωνεὺς ἐγέννησε θυγατέρα … Τυρώ; 68, 3
Ποσειδῶν ἐγέννησε Πελίαν κ. Νηλέα; 68, 6 Νηλεὺς παῖδας ἐγέννησε
δώδεκα. Interchanged with ἐγέννησε are ἐτέκνωσε, ἦν υἱός, παῖδες
ἐγένοντο, etc.; cp. PMich 155, 7. The continuity is not formalized to
the degree in Mt, but in Diod S 4, 69, 1–3 ἐγέννησε is repeated six
times in a short space, and 4, 75, 4f ἐγέννησε occurs four times with
the names of fathers and sons; Did., Gen. 144, 27); Ac 7:8, 29. ἐκ w.
gen. of the mother (Hdt. 1, 108, 2; Diod S 4, 2, 1; 4, 62, 1; Palaeph.
44; PLond V, 1730, 10 οἱ ἐξ αὐτῆς γεννηθέντες υἱοί; Tob 1:9; 2 Esdr
10:44; Demetr.: 722 Fgm. 2, 2 Jac.; TestJob 1:6; Jos, Ant. 12, 189) Mt
1:3, 5f.—Pass. be fathered (Orig., C. Cels. 8, 66, 23) ἐκ τῆς
παιδίσκης κατὰ σάρκα w. the slave-woman, according to the flesh (i.e.
in line with human devising; opp. διʼ ἐπαγγελίας) Gal 4:23. ὁ κατὰ
σάρκα γεννηθείς he that was fathered by human design, opp. ὁ κατὰ
πνεῦμα he that was fathered by the Spirit’s design, i.e. in keeping
with the divine promise, vs. 23) vs. 29. τὸ ἐν αὐτῇ γεννηθὲν ἐκ
πνεύματός ἐστιν that which is conceived in her is of the Spirit Mt
1:20 (τὸ γεννηθέν of that which is yet unborn: Diod S 17, 77, 3). Here
the male principle is introduced by ἐκ (Lucian, Dial. Deor. 20, 14 ἐκ
κύκνου γεγεννημένη; Phlegon: 257 Fgm. 36, 2, 4 Jac.; Ps-Callisth. 1,
30, 3 ἐξ Ἄμμωνος ἐγεννήθη; TestSim 2:2) as J 1:13 (ἐγενήθ. P75et al.);
but in 3:6 the imagery is complex, involving a maternal aspect in vs.
4. W. ἀπό (En 15:8 οἱ γίγαντες οἱ γεννηθέντες ἀπὸ τ. πνευμάτων κ. σαρκός) ἀφʼ ἑνὸς ἐγεννήθησαν they were fathered by one man Hb 11:12
(numerous edd. ἐγενήθησαν). ἐκ πορνείας οὐ γεγεννήμεθα (v.l.
ἐγεννήθημεν) J 8:41 (cp. StudPal XX, 4, 30 ἐξ ἀγράφων γάμων
γεγεννῆσθαι). ἐν ἁμαρτίαις σὺ ἐγεννήθης ὅλος you’re a born sinner,
totally! 9:34.—Lk 1:35 (where mng. 2 is also prob. [as in τὸ
γεννώμενον Philo, Plant. 15]. S. AFridrichsen, SymbOsl 6, 1928, 33–36;
HAlmqvist, Plut. u. d. NT ’46, 60f). ⓑ by exercising the role of a
parental figure, ext. of 1a (Philo, Leg. ad Gai. 58 μᾶλλον αὐτὸν τῶν
γονέων γεγέννηκα), of a teacher on pupils ἐν Χ. Ἰ. διὰ τοῦ εὐαγγελίου
ὑμᾶς ἐγέννησα I became your father as Christians through the gospel 1
Cor 4:15; Phlm 10 (s. Ltzm. and JWeiss on 1 Cor 4:15; ADieterich,
Mithraslit. 1903, 146ff).—Pass. ἐκ (τοῦ) θεοῦ γεννᾶσθαι J 1:13 (on the
rdg. of the Lat. ms. b, s. JPryor, NovT 27, ’85, 296–318); 1J 2:29;
3:9; 4:7; 5:1, 4, 18. On γεννᾶσθαι ἐξ ὕδατος κ. πνεύματος J 3:5 cp.
1QS 4:20–22 and s. YYadin, JBL 74, ’55, 40–43. Also ἄνωθεν γ. J 3:3,
7. πᾶς ὁ ἀγαπῶν τὸν γεννήσαντα ἀγαπᾷ τὸν γεγεννημένον ἐξ αὐτοῦ everyone who loves the father (=God) loves the child (=Christ or one’s
fellow Christian) 1J 5:1 (on γεννᾶσθαι ἐκ θεοῦ s. Hdb. on J 3:3 and 1J
3:9 and the sources and lit. listed there; s. also παλιγγενεσία). Cp.
σήμερον γεγέννηκά σε (Ps 2:7) 1 Cl 36:4; GEb 18, 37; Ac 13:33 (held by
some to have been the orig. rdg. Lk 3:22 v.l.; s. JHillmann, Die
Kindheitsgesch. Jesu nach Lucas: Jahrbücher f. Protestantische
Theologie 17/2, 1891, 192–261; HUsener, D. Weihnachtsfest2 1911,
38ff); Hb 1:5; 5:5. p 194 ② to give birth to, bear (Aeschyl.,
Suppl. 48; X., De Rep. Lac. 1, 3; Lucian, Sacrif. 6; Plut., Mor., 3c;
Ps.-Callisth. 1, 9, 2 ἐκ θεοῦ γεννήσασα παῖδα=a woman who has borne a
child to a god; BGU 132 II, 5; Judg 11:1 B; Is 66:9; 4 Macc 10:2) Lk
1:13, 57; 23:29; J 16:21 w. τίκτειν; AcPl Ha 8, 28 εἰς δουλείαν
γεννῶσα who bears children for slavery Gal 4:24. Pass. be born (ἐκ
παρθένου Did., Gen. 96, 13) ἐγεννήθη Μωϋσῆς Ac 7:20; cp. Hb 11:23.
γεγεννημένος ἐν Ταρσῷ Ac 22:3; μήπω … γεννηθέντων Ro 9:11; πρὶν ἡμᾶς
γεννηθῆναι before we were born 1 Cl 38:3. εἰς τὸν κόσμον come into the
world J 16:21; Mt 2:1, 4; 19:12; 26:24 (=1 Cl 46:8); Mk 14:21 (cp. En
38:2); Lk 1:35 (1a is also prob.; a v.l. adds ἐκ σοῦ, which can be
rendered ‘the child to whom you give birth’). ἐκ Μαρίας ἐγεννήθη
AcPlCor 1:14; 2:5 (cp. Mt 1:16); J 3:4; 9:2, 19f, 32; IEph 18:2; ITr
11:2; ἀληθῶς γ. be in fact born (in opp. to Docetism) 9:1. γεγεννημένα
(v.l. γεγενημένα) εἰς ἅλωσιν 2 Pt 2:12. εἰς τοῦτο for this purpose J
18:37. διάλεκτος ἐν ᾑ ἐγεννήθημεν the language in which we were born
i.e., which we have spoken fr. infancy Ac 2:8. ἐγὼ δὲ καὶ γεγέννημαι
but I was actually born a Roman citizen 22:28. οὗτος ἐγεννήθη βασιλεύς
born a king GJs 20:4 codd. γεννῶνται και γεννῶσιν Lk 20:34 v.l. ③ to
cause someth. to happen, bring forth, produce, cause, fig. of various
kinds of production (Pla. et al.; Polyb. 1, 67, 2 στάσις ἐγεννᾶτο;
Philo, De Jos. 254; Jos., Ant. 6, 144) 2 Ti 2:23.—γ. καρπόν produce
fruit (Philo, Op. M. 113) ITr 11:1. Forged writing γεγεννημένον for
γεγενημένον GJs 24:3.—B. 280. DELG s.v. γίγνομαι p. 222. M-M. TW.
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., & Bauer, W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon
of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed.,
pp. 193–194). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
Varnel Watson
The original snake handler 🙂 http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/for-all-the-snake-handlers-out-here-st-patrick-left-none/
Link Hudson
No clear references to tongues there, bot Patrick was no cessatioñist. He was known for healing and raising the dead .
Stan Wayne
I would say “unspeakable sighs” is close enough
Varnel Watson
I would not say that
Stan Wayne
Don’t know about Patrick for sure but I think Paul is referring to tongues there
Varnel Watson
So was he Pentecostal ?
Varnel Watson
Stan Wayne The Spirit helps the weaknesses of our prayer; for we do know what it is we should pray, but the very Spirit pleads for us with unspeakable sighs, which cannot be expressed in words
Stan Wayne
Maybe
Varnel Watson
Maybe Timothy K. Wiebe can take him to the movies sometimes 🙂
Stan Wayne
Dean Henry Alford always insightful:
groanings which cannot be expressed:—i.e. the Holy Spirit of God dwelling in us, knowing our wants better than we, Himself pleads in our prayers, raising us to higher and holier desires than we can express in words, which can only find utterance in sighings and aspirations: see next verse. So De W., Thol., Olsh. Chrys. (Hom, xiv., p. 586) interprets it of the χάρισμα of prayer—and adds ὁ γὰρ τοιαύτης καταξιωθεὶς χάριτος, ἑστὼς μετὰ πολλῆς τῆς κατανύξεως
similarly Œc(54) and Theophyl. Calv. understands, that the Spirit suggests to us the proper words of acceptable prayer, which would otherwise have been unutterable by us: and similarly Beza, Grot.
ἀλαλήτοις may bear three meanings—1, unspoken: 2, that does not speak,—mute (see LXX, Job 38:14; Sirach 18:33 compl.): 3, that cannot be spoken. The analogy of verbals in – τος in the N. T. favours the latter meaning: compare ἀνεκδιήγητος, 2 Corinthians 9:15,— ἄῤῥητος, 2 Corinthians 12:4,— ἀνεκλάλητος, 1 Peter 1:8 (Thol.).
in nobis gemit, quia gemere nos facit.’ No intercession in heaven is here spoken of, but a pleading in us by the indwelling Spirit, of a nature above our comprehension and utterance
Varnel Watson
William DeArteaga was St Patrick an anglican roman Pentecostal ?
William DeArteaga
YES,but he would not use that vocabulary.
Varnel Watson
in that case he reminds me of Philip Williams 🙂
Link Hudson
There are historians who accept two documents as coming from him. If I recall correctly, the account of his seeing a vision that instructed him to escape from Ireland and the account of the supernatural voice that led him to go back to minister are both from his own writings. Having visions and hearing supernatural voices are in line with Pentecosotal beliefs, generally.
There are writings a generation or two after he passed away that tell of his performing a great number of healings, including raising a number of people from the dead and even one horse.
There are things that are not culturally ‘Pentecostal’ about the story of Patrick. For one thing, he confessed his sin to a fellow priest/elder who blabbed of his shameful sin of his youth, something that he was quite ashamed of, but that we do not know about. Patrick had some conflict with the church establishment in Briton. There was probably some jealousy over his great success in Ireland, and he wrote a scathing letter wanting bishops to excommunicate kings who were capturing Christians and selling them off into slavery, if I recall correctly. On one occasion, his sin was published.
Confessing sins to an elder is more a Roman Catholic practice than a Pentecostal one.
Patrick was also a monk, apparently. He established monastaries that would later become both centers for learning and centers for expansion of the gospel. The existence of celibate believers dedicated to living a celibate life to glorify God is not antithetical to the Bible, though it is not really a part of Pentecostal culture or tradition.
Varnel Watson
which are those historians and what documents?
Link Hudson
Troy Day You can look it up yourself. I think there are just two.
Varnel Watson
which ones should I be looking for namely ? Have you mention them before. Can you pass the Link pls
Link Hudson
Troy Day Confessio and Letter to the Soldiers of Coroticus. Check Wikipedia for links.
Varnel Watson
if you are still referring to his Confessio and Epistola I read them many years ago in my program in Dublin in their original However, which part from this letters do you see relevant to OP? Their authorship has been questioned BTW
Troy Day
Neil Steven Lawrence Oscar Valdez @highlight Philip Williams https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/god-doesn-t-exist-america-s-most-atheist-states-ranked/ss-BB1jSB1o?ocid=msedgntp&pc=U531&cvid=7571297a8f5a4541a73c9a6dc19c993d&ei=5