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Sovereignty and Freedom
A panel discussion about “How Much Does God Control?”
Varnel Watson
CrossTheology Sovereignty and Freedom: “How Much Does God Control?” GO! Brody Pope
Nelson Banuchi
Troy Day, Thanks for posting that debate for me. I’ve seen that debate and Dr. Brown expertly uses the OT to support his position (as his forte is the OT), which is an obvious weakness for White. One of the better, if not the best, debates with White specifically on this issue.
Varnel Watson
Nelson I watched Brown debate with someone (bald-head) and honestly I did not enjoy it neither could I figure out the relevance of some of the arguments they were bringing; though I enjoy Brown
Nelson Banuchi
Troy Day Surprised you were unable to follow. White is bald.
Varnel Watson
It’s a free country. Still. Stan Wayne David Lewayne Porter
CrossTheology
I would say most Pentecostals affirm Simple Foreknowledge in classical Arminianism. I believe in Open Theism (the present knowledge variant), which is accepted by the Assemblies of God.
Stan Wayne
I do not understand open theism if it means God did know something at some time (incarnation excepted)
Varnel Watson
Stan Wayne I am with you on this brother. Open theism makes no sense to lots of people but it does to bro. Ricky Grimsley 🙂
Robert Borders
Should be interesting. Randy Clark touches on this a bit in his new book entitled The Healing Breakthrough.
CrossTheology
Stan Wayne I think my apology for Open Theism gives a good start in understanding Open Theism: https://crosstheology.wordpress.com/an-apology-for-open-theism/
Henry Volk
Any Process people here?
http://www.patheos.com/Resources/Additional-Resources/Process-Theology-A-Beginners-Guide-Bruce-Epperly-01-03-2012
Varnel Watson
Robert Borders Should be interesting!
Robert Borders
I am presently reviewing process theology and Open Theism. I tend to be rather eclectic and open to theological mixes as I do not know everything about anything.
Nelson Banuchi
Re: Open Theism, I will go as far as to say, assuming God does not foreknow human free will choices, that God foreknows every possible choice one can make and has provided every possible response for every possible choice that one may actually make. Therefore, God is not caught by surprised, no guess work is needed for God to determine what to do next or, actually, what you will do.
Simply stated, although one may claim God does not know the exact choice to be actualized, nevertheless, God can still bring future events to pass as he will knowing the full array of possible human choices and where each and every potential choice would lead if actualized.
I’m not sure how this is different from Open Theism, but this is how I would describe an “open” view.
Varnel Watson
This is one of the reasons why I am not a Calvinist Ricky Grimsley if God does not know the future how does he hold the future? http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/why-am-i-not-a-calvinist/
Robert Borders
Robert Borders liked this on Facebook.
Varnel Watson
Troy Day liked this on Facebook.
Ricky Grimsley
God controls everything in the sense that he sets parameters and gives things life and the power to do what they do.
David Lewayne Porter
And He knows what we will do before we do it. He knew it all from the beginning. ?
CrossTheology
David Lewayne Porter you should consider the context of the passage you alluded to: https://crosstheology.wordpress.com/declaring-the-end-from-the-beginning/
David Lewayne Porter
Tom I have considered the context of the passage.
I choose to not take any interpretation of any scripture by any person that lessens the Character of God as defined in the very same Scriptures.
According to this, the author dances around the issues that would give him major issues,,, example Old Testament prophecy being fulfilled to the letter in the New Testament. (Example the betrayer and his bishopric being left empty, the field purchased with the monies – named before hand by quantity).
Not to mention all the situations yet to occur in Revelation that God has already told us concerning).
God has both intuitive knowledge and experiential knowledge.
I love the fact some people are willing to take man’s interpretations and ideas over that of Jehovah God.
Think of God the way you choice to brother. My God is omnipotent enough to know the end from the beginning down to the smallest detail and allow us to have total free-will at the same time.
He does know the end from the beginning and He is the only one that knows and controls somethings. Matthew 24:36
But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
I just pray the church stops thinking of God in their terms and learn about the true fulness of God.
CrossTheology
neither the Son knows that hour… think about it…
David Lewayne Porter
I did think about it.
Trust me, I think about what I believe before I speak.
The thoughts have already been dealt with.
Are you questioning the Father’s abilities? You do realize there is a God-Head correct?
Think about it.
Take your time.
CrossTheology
Nelson Banuchi you can hold to an Open View with Middle Knowledge. I personally disagree and only hold to present knowledge (term by David Basinger). More information available here: https://crosstheology.wordpress.com/a-perfect-world/
Nelson Banuchi
CrossTheology, I don’t know exactly what I hold to. My preference, unless I am better convinced otherwise, is that God’s possess a foreknowledge that is simple but exhaustive, certain but not decreeing.
CrossTheology
that’s what most Pentecostals believe. People call it the Arminian view but it’s often differently explained than Arminius himself would have explained it. 🙂
Nelson Banuchi
CrossTheology How does Arminius explain it? Please provide a quote by him, if possible.
Louise Cummings
I believe God knows everything. And can control everything. But He gives us choices to stay with Him or go our own way. Of Course in the end we will reel what we sow. He Will have the final say.
Varnel Watson
On another note, this panel discussion about “How Much Does God Control?” may be just out of control
David Lewayne Porter
Our control? (or His, not His, ?)
Ricky Grimsley
I cant believe anyone believes that God actually controls everything unless by that you mean that he sets parameters.
Nelson Banuchi
Essentially, Reformed Calvinist do, with double-think statements…see: http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/index.html
Jerome T Morris
Jerome T Morris liked this on Facebook.
Varnel Watson
A good like by Jerome T Morris