Ed Lane [02/25/2015 10:06 AM]
John Earp [02/25/2015 10:17 AM]
It is always remarkable how someone with an apparently earned doctorate can be so willfully ignorant of Scripture. It is one thing to critique dispensationalism and the PRETRIB theory, but to say there will be no rapture at all is simply unscriptural.
Bill Coble [02/25/2015 10:25 AM]
The Rapture is Biblical. Allow me to indulge for a moment here. I watched this video and I want to make it clear, I respectfully and completely disagree with this gentleman. Let me start with Revelation 1:10. John begins by saying He is “In the Spirit on the Lord’s Day”. John was not referring to Sunday here, but rather canonically is referring to the START of the Day of the Lord. Note what he sees and hears a voice and a trumpet. When you translate that in Greek you realize that it is the same terms given in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17. Furthermore, you go to Revelation 3:10, and we are kept from the hour of temptation to come upon the whole world. Then we go to Revelation 4:1, and John is told to come up hither and see the things hereafter. If the Rapture is a myth, then why do we see in Revelation 7 the need for 144,000 witnesses during the tribulation, the need for Revelation 11 and the two witnesses, etc. Furthermore, you destroy the Doctrine of the Imminent Return of Jesus by denying the Doctrine of the Rapture. He also discusses the Matthew 24 passage. While the rapture is mentioned in the latter part of the passage, note that Jesus starts the dialogue over again with his disciples rather than being a continuation. Post-Trib holds this text as one continuous text when it is clear he starts the dialogue over with the Parable of the Fig Tree. If the rapture is during or after the Tribulation how in the world can it be a Blessed Hope? Titus 2:13.
Jordan Evans [02/25/2015 10:46 AM]
Absolutely not. I love N.T. Wright’s writings on the topic. Really opened my eyes to the rapture fallacy and current “Left Behind” eschatology perpetrated by Darby and Scofield in the early 1800’s-1900’s.
Laurie Anne Corson [02/25/2015 11:12 AM]
Have to know your history about Scofield and Darby!
Deborah Nimm Dearborn [02/25/2015 11:26 AM]
I am one who agrees that rapture teaching is very problematic because of my own study of the Bible as well as other resources. I believe though that it is difficult for many to simply discard the rapture because in so doing it upsets the entire theology of Christ’s return and his millennial reign on earth before the final judgment. Like the rapture this teaching is nearly set in stone by Evangelicals, yet it too poses many difficulties if one takes the time to closely examine Scripture. One thing we must accept is that the best interpretation of prophecy is done in hindsight. Just as Israel was expecting a politically conquering Messiah king but instead received a suffering servant who was to be crucified, we too may well have a misunderstood expectation of Christ’s second advent.
Pentecostal Theology [02/25/2015 11:31 AM]
There’s also a specific video on Mt. 24 we will try to publish and some Rapture related writings by the early church fathers that prove the doctrine dates all the way back to the 3-4 century
John Earp [02/25/2015 11:32 AM]
I am definitely not a dispensationalist, and I am well aware of the errors of Darby and Scofield, but to deny completely any rapture/resurrection of the dead in Christ at all is patently unscriptural:
1 Thess 4:15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord,d that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18Therefore encourage one another with these words.
1 Cor. 15:50 I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. 54When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.” 55“O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?”
Deborah Nimm Dearborn [02/25/2015 11:38 AM]
Not accepting the rapture does not mean that the resurrection is thrown away also. The resurrection of both the living and the dead will surely happen. The question is whether they are two totally separate events or if they are both contained within the parameters of “the day of the Lord.”
John Earp [02/25/2015 11:40 AM]
In the above video, the professor says there will be no rapture at all. He must willfully ignore the above passages in order to make such a claim.
Jordan Evans [02/25/2015 11:41 AM]
Or interpret them correctly..
John Earp [02/25/2015 11:41 AM]
(As well as several other passages in Scripture).
Pentecostal Theology [02/25/2015 11:44 AM]
Daniel Rushing shared some Thoughts from Revelation that fits this discussion well…
John Earp [02/25/2015 11:46 AM]
Let’s see. Dead in Christ resurrected into incorruptible bodies. Living believers likewise transformed into imperishable bodies. All meet the Lord in the air. All happening at the last trump, when Christ returns. I happen to find the post-trib theory makes the most sense, but whatever one’s eschatology, one cannot legitimately say there will be no rapture/catching away of the saints at all.
Jordan Evans [02/25/2015 11:55 AM]
The earliest known teaching of the modern “rapture” is the 18th century. Other early-ancient writers may have used the word “rapture,” but it is radically different from what see and hear today. They believed all the saints would be resurrected on the last day as Jesus returned with the fullness of the kingdom..Which is still what most Reformed, Lutheran, Orthodox, and the Catholic Church teaches and had been teaching for centuries. Futurism, as we call it, is a relatively new perspective, and is really only popular in the US..(I cant tell you how many friends of mine in other countries had never heard of the modern interpretation of the rapture and Futurism, finding it quite silly). If you want a better understanding of the Biblical writer’s eschatology, I would say look no further than the early Church Fathers, meaning those within the first few generations of the Apostles deaths.
Pentecostal Theology [02/25/2015 11:58 AM]
You are incorrect on the 18th century theory, especially if you decide to read the Eastern Orthodox fathers, however your response answers Rick Wadholm Jr question on Pentecostal Preterists here: http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/are-there-any-pentecostal-scholars/
Jordan Evans [02/25/2015 11:59 AM]
I strongly believe this view presents the strongest example of a Biblical eschatology http://ntwrightpage.com/Wright_BR_Farewell_Rapture.htm
John Earp [02/25/2015 12:00 PM]
I am quite familiar with church history. I affirm historic premillenialism, not dispensationalism.
Pentecostal Theology [02/25/2015 12:15 PM]
Many opponents of the pre-tribulation rapture view have made dogmatic assertions that this view was never taught before 1820. There have been many attempts to attribute the origin of this view to John N. Darby. An ancient citation from a sermon ascribed to Ephraem of Nisibis (306-373 a.d.), clearly teaches that believers will be raptured and taken to Heaven before The Tribulation. http://www.khouse.org/articles/1995/39/
Jordan Evans [02/25/2015 12:24 PM]
That’s an extra-Biblical, non-apostolic-linked source..The point is that the Early Church, at least for the first 250-300 years did not teach a pre-trib rapture, nor had it even been heard of.. To put that in perspective, in that span of time, The United States came together..That’s quite a long time. Definitely enough time for a bit of Gnosticism to blend in with eschatology..
Pentecostal Theology [02/25/2015 12:28 PM]
150BC – 70AD Rapture Mentioned in the Dead Sea Scrolls Dr. William Harold, professor of Canon Law, at the Theological Seminary of Essex, GB wrote: “The scroll, written in Aramaic, the language spoken in the Holy Land during Jesus time on earth, was found in a cave on the shores of the Dead Sea by geologists conducting a survey for the Israeli government.”
The scrolls read: “The Rapture will occur suddenly. And countless thousands will vanish from the earth. Swept up to heaven to live with Jesus and escape the torment of the Tribulation, the others will be left behind.” — The Dead Sea Scrolls Rick Wadholm Jr
Steve Webb [02/25/2015 12:28 PM]
Even Christ referenced the rapture. This was done in speaking of workers in the field, but most explicitly in the parable of the ten virgins. The Jewish wedding is a great picture of the rapture, 7 years in heaven, and return for the 1000 year reign of Christ on earth.
Jordan Evans [02/25/2015 12:29 PM]
Jordan Evans [02/25/2015 12:29 PM]
That reference is about people being taken away as slaves when the Romans invaded Jerusalem in 70AD.
Pentecostal Theology [02/25/2015 12:30 PM]
95-150 AD, the Rapture idea was preached by the Shepherd of Hermas.
“You have escaped from great tribulation on account of your faith, and because you did not doubt in the presence of such a beast. Go, therefore, and tell the elect of the Lord His mighty deeds, and say to them that this beast is a type of the great tribulation that is coming. If then ye prepare yourselves, and repent with all your heart, and turn to the Lord, it will be possible for you to escape it, if your heart be pure and spotless, and ye spend the rest of the days of your life in serving the Lord blamelessly.”
Jordan Evans [02/25/2015 12:32 PM]
Again, that is the different understanding of the rapture I mentioned above. Futurism and a pre-trib rapture are simply not Biblical. It comes from a mix of Gnosticism and extra-Biblical sources.