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Ed Lane [02/25/2015 10:06 AM]
YES
John Earp [02/25/2015 10:17 AM]
It is always remarkable how someone with an apparently earned doctorate can be so willfully ignorant of Scripture. It is one thing to critique dispensationalism and the PRETRIB theory, but to say there will be no rapture at all is simply unscriptural.
Bill Coble [02/25/2015 10:25 AM]
The Rapture is Biblical. Allow me to indulge for a moment here. I watched this video and I want to make it clear, I respectfully and completely disagree with this gentleman. Let me start with Revelation 1:10. John begins by saying He is “In the Spirit on the Lord’s Day”. John was not referring to Sunday here, but rather canonically is referring to the START of the Day of the Lord. Note what he sees and hears a voice and a trumpet. When you translate that in Greek you realize that it is the same terms given in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17. Furthermore, you go to Revelation 3:10, and we are kept from the hour of temptation to come upon the whole world. Then we go to Revelation 4:1, and John is told to come up hither and see the things hereafter. If the Rapture is a myth, then why do we see in Revelation 7 the need for 144,000 witnesses during the tribulation, the need for Revelation 11 and the two witnesses, etc. Furthermore, you destroy the Doctrine of the Imminent Return of Jesus by denying the Doctrine of the Rapture. He also discusses the Matthew 24 passage. While the rapture is mentioned in the latter part of the passage, note that Jesus starts the dialogue over again with his disciples rather than being a continuation. Post-Trib holds this text as one continuous text when it is clear he starts the dialogue over with the Parable of the Fig Tree. If the rapture is during or after the Tribulation how in the world can it be a Blessed Hope? Titus 2:13.
Jordan Evans [02/25/2015 10:46 AM]
Absolutely not. I love N.T. Wright’s writings on the topic. Really opened my eyes to the rapture fallacy and current “Left Behind” eschatology perpetrated by Darby and Scofield in the early 1800’s-1900’s.
Laurie Anne Corson [02/25/2015 11:12 AM]
Have to know your history about Scofield and Darby!
Deborah Nimm Dearborn [02/25/2015 11:26 AM]
I am one who agrees that rapture teaching is very problematic because of my own study of the Bible as well as other resources. I believe though that it is difficult for many to simply discard the rapture because in so doing it upsets the entire theology of Christ’s return and his millennial reign on earth before the final judgment. Like the rapture this teaching is nearly set in stone by Evangelicals, yet it too poses many difficulties if one takes the time to closely examine Scripture. One thing we must accept is that the best interpretation of prophecy is done in hindsight. Just as Israel was expecting a politically conquering Messiah king but instead received a suffering servant who was to be crucified, we too may well have a misunderstood expectation of Christ’s second advent.
Pentecostal Theology [02/25/2015 11:31 AM]
There’s also a specific video on Mt. 24 we will try to publish and some Rapture related writings by the early church fathers that prove the doctrine dates all the way back to the 3-4 century
John Earp [02/25/2015 11:32 AM]
I am definitely not a dispensationalist, and I am well aware of the errors of Darby and Scofield, but to deny completely any rapture/resurrection of the dead in Christ at all is patently unscriptural:
1 Thess 4:15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord,d that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18Therefore encourage one another with these words.
1 Cor. 15:50 I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. 54When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.” 55“O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?”
Deborah Nimm Dearborn [02/25/2015 11:38 AM]
Not accepting the rapture does not mean that the resurrection is thrown away also. The resurrection of both the living and the dead will surely happen. The question is whether they are two totally separate events or if they are both contained within the parameters of “the day of the Lord.”
John Earp [02/25/2015 11:40 AM]
In the above video, the professor says there will be no rapture at all. He must willfully ignore the above passages in order to make such a claim.
Jordan Evans [02/25/2015 11:41 AM]
Or interpret them correctly..
John Earp [02/25/2015 11:41 AM]
(As well as several other passages in Scripture).
Pentecostal Theology [02/25/2015 11:44 AM]
Daniel Rushing shared some Thoughts from Revelation that fits this discussion well…
John Earp [02/25/2015 11:46 AM]
Let’s see. Dead in Christ resurrected into incorruptible bodies. Living believers likewise transformed into imperishable bodies. All meet the Lord in the air. All happening at the last trump, when Christ returns. I happen to find the post-trib theory makes the most sense, but whatever one’s eschatology, one cannot legitimately say there will be no rapture/catching away of the saints at all.
Jordan Evans [02/25/2015 11:55 AM]
The earliest known teaching of the modern “rapture” is the 18th century. Other early-ancient writers may have used the word “rapture,” but it is radically different from what see and hear today. They believed all the saints would be resurrected on the last day as Jesus returned with the fullness of the kingdom..Which is still what most Reformed, Lutheran, Orthodox, and the Catholic Church teaches and had been teaching for centuries. Futurism, as we call it, is a relatively new perspective, and is really only popular in the US..(I cant tell you how many friends of mine in other countries had never heard of the modern interpretation of the rapture and Futurism, finding it quite silly). If you want a better understanding of the Biblical writer’s eschatology, I would say look no further than the early Church Fathers, meaning those within the first few generations of the Apostles deaths.
Pentecostal Theology [02/25/2015 11:58 AM]
You are incorrect on the 18th century theory, especially if you decide to read the Eastern Orthodox fathers, however your response answers Rick Wadholm Jr question on Pentecostal Preterists here: http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/are-there-any-pentecostal-scholars/
Jordan Evans [02/25/2015 11:59 AM]
I strongly believe this view presents the strongest example of a Biblical eschatology http://ntwrightpage.com/Wright_BR_Farewell_Rapture.htm
John Earp [02/25/2015 12:00 PM]
I am quite familiar with church history. I affirm historic premillenialism, not dispensationalism.
Pentecostal Theology [02/25/2015 12:15 PM]
Many opponents of the pre-tribulation rapture view have made dogmatic assertions that this view was never taught before 1820. There have been many attempts to attribute the origin of this view to John N. Darby. An ancient citation from a sermon ascribed to Ephraem of Nisibis (306-373 a.d.), clearly teaches that believers will be raptured and taken to Heaven before The Tribulation. http://www.khouse.org/articles/1995/39/
Jordan Evans [02/25/2015 12:24 PM]
That’s an extra-Biblical, non-apostolic-linked source..The point is that the Early Church, at least for the first 250-300 years did not teach a pre-trib rapture, nor had it even been heard of.. To put that in perspective, in that span of time, The United States came together..That’s quite a long time. Definitely enough time for a bit of Gnosticism to blend in with eschatology..
Pentecostal Theology [02/25/2015 12:28 PM]
150BC – 70AD Rapture Mentioned in the Dead Sea Scrolls Dr. William Harold, professor of Canon Law, at the Theological Seminary of Essex, GB wrote: “The scroll, written in Aramaic, the language spoken in the Holy Land during Jesus time on earth, was found in a cave on the shores of the Dead Sea by geologists conducting a survey for the Israeli government.”
The scrolls read: “The Rapture will occur suddenly. And countless thousands will vanish from the earth. Swept up to heaven to live with Jesus and escape the torment of the Tribulation, the others will be left behind.” — The Dead Sea Scrolls Rick Wadholm Jr
Steve Webb [02/25/2015 12:28 PM]
Even Christ referenced the rapture. This was done in speaking of workers in the field, but most explicitly in the parable of the ten virgins. The Jewish wedding is a great picture of the rapture, 7 years in heaven, and return for the 1000 year reign of Christ on earth.
Jordan Evans [02/25/2015 12:29 PM]
Non-apostolic-linked.
Jordan Evans [02/25/2015 12:29 PM]
That reference is about people being taken away as slaves when the Romans invaded Jerusalem in 70AD.
Pentecostal Theology [02/25/2015 12:30 PM]
95-150 AD, the Rapture idea was preached by the Shepherd of Hermas.
“You have escaped from great tribulation on account of your faith, and because you did not doubt in the presence of such a beast. Go, therefore, and tell the elect of the Lord His mighty deeds, and say to them that this beast is a type of the great tribulation that is coming. If then ye prepare yourselves, and repent with all your heart, and turn to the Lord, it will be possible for you to escape it, if your heart be pure and spotless, and ye spend the rest of the days of your life in serving the Lord blamelessly.”
Jordan Evans [02/25/2015 12:32 PM]
Again, that is the different understanding of the rapture I mentioned above. Futurism and a pre-trib rapture are simply not Biblical. It comes from a mix of Gnosticism and extra-Biblical sources.
Varnel Watson
Troy Day liked this on Facebook.
Ed Lane
What are you talking about?
Varnel Watson
Ed Lane Rapture? – just reading some on this fine discussion
Ed Lane
For what?
Ed Lane
Last thing I’ll say there is a Rapture
Robert Borders
Probably not as is commonly taught.
Varnel Watson
I teach pre-trib rapture every chance I get. I wanna make sure Ricky Grimsley dont miss it while waiting on the wrath
Dan Irving
Dispensationalists have a real hard time with spiritual metaphor.
Ricky Grimsley
Well i hope you yall wont lose heart during the first five years or lose heart thinking you missed the rapture when it hasnt happened yet
Varnel Watson
Dont have to be Dispensationalist to believe in the pre-trib rapture
Ricky Grimsley
Please tell me people dont actually believe the rapture is just a metaphor?
Varnel Watson
Oh not at all – some even believe it already happened in 70AD 🙂
Dan Irving
Ricky, No the Second Coming is not metaphor. I speak of the tendency of Dispensationalists to reject clear metaphor in order to hold their eschatoloty together. Troy, many in these days are leaping into Preterism as the hazard of realizing their Dispensationalist teachers were wrong. BTW, I don’t see how one can arrive at a Pre-Trib position without heavy dependence upon JN Darbyism.
Varnel Watson
Pentecostal Pre-Trib position does not involve Dispensations that restrict the work of the Holy Spirit to just one Dispensation. We believe the Holy Spirit worked all through human history and contunues today
Ricky Grimsley
Yeah everyone wants to be orthodox around here when we talk about open-theism but not so much during rapture talk ?
Varnel Watson
The main great problem of Open Theism is the Open Revelation. The very notion that God can learn new things and acquires new information puts in question the entire Revelation and allows for Open Revelation based on the new information acquired. From this point on both Open Theism and Open Revelation become a downhill fallacy IMHO
Dan Irving
I just hope the Chuck Smith rule doesn’t apply here.
Dan Irving
I think the reason Darby came up with 3 comings of Christ was to accommodate the literal sealing of a literal 144,000 literal Israelites under circumstances in which there was literally no Christian Gentiles around to complicate matters.
Varnel Watson
Dan Irving Like Scofield, Darby followed earlier theological research and did not discover neither the rapture nor Dispensations. Dispensations as an American theological teaching was promoted first by the Dallas Theological Seminary as typical secessionism. We’ve seen all this before in the discussion on Thomas Newberry Reference Bible of 1890 published in London http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/thomas-newberry-reference-bible-of-1890-published-in-london/
Dan Irving
A parallel-thread of Dispensationalism? I’ve always accepted the history of the teaching as arising near 1840 when JN Darby visited the Scotland home of Mary MacDonald and accepted her prophecy “Not every eye shall see him.”
Varnel Watson
In short, the objection is that rather than being a real part of the Bible, the entire idea of a pre-Great Tribulational Rapture was just an invention by Darby and “not even heretics” ever used it. This is very strong language, but is it true? Were there no ancient Christian writings about the church being Raptured before Great Tribulation? An examination of early church writings shows that this charge is false and there were some church fathers who indeed wrote about the Rapture. Clement of Rome (30-100) spoke about the Rapture in his First Epistle to the Corinthians…
Ricky Grimsley
I dont see that to be the case. These people saw the return of christ as imminent because they thought the tribulation had already begun and nero or some other Caesar was the antichrist because of persecution. That was he reason that paul wrote 2 thess because it was already common in his day.
Varnel Watson
“Blessed Assurance” is a well-known Christian hymn. The lyrics were written in 1873 by blind hymn writer Fanny Crosby to the music written in 1873 by Phoebe Knapp. Even then people knew about:
Visions of rapture now burst on my sight;
Angels, descending, bring from above
Echoes of mercy, whispers of love.
Dan Irving
Troy, I scanned through my copy of Clement’s letter; didn’t see anything about Rapture. Although I have not read the letter in many years, THAT would have caught my attention, if it is in there (& would seem to have prevented the universal charge critics of PTR have asserted since the days of Scofield)
Varnel Watson
Dan Irving Thanks for taking the time. Pls see my full info detail comment below. This is the part about Clement of Rome 68 or 97 AD – – –
In Clement’s Epistles to the Corinthians: “Let us take (for instance) Enoch…Noah…and the Lord saved by him the animals which, with one accord, entered into the ark. On account of his hospitality and godliness, Lot was saved out of Sodore when all the country round was punished by means of fire and brimstone, the Lord thus making it manifest that He does not forsake those that hope in Him.”
Dan Irving
lol right?
Ricky Grimsley
The rapture will happen. Just not before the antichrist gets here.
Varnel Watson
I was gonan say that one’s got to be blind not to see the rapture in the Bible; but no, even blind hymn writer Fanny Crosby saw:
Visions of rapture now burst on my sight;
Angels, descending, bring from above
Echoes of mercy, whispers of love.
Ricky Grimsley
Who is saying there is no rapture?
Varnel Watson
Charles Page and all the preterists out there
Ricky Grimsley
Oh yeah. Nonsense
Varnel Watson
Dan Irving
Clement of Rome 68 or 97 AD
In Clement’s Epistles to the Corinthians: “Let us take (for instance) Enoch…Noah…and the Lord saved by him the animals which, with one accord, entered into the ark. On account of his hospitality and godliness, Lot was saved out of Sodore when all the country round was punished by means of fire and brimstone, the Lord thus making it manifest that He does not forsake those that hope in Him.”
Ephraem the Syrian (4th century AD) of the Byzantine Church wrote about the Lord’s return as being imminent in his sermon “On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World.” He stated, “All saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins.” Pseudo-Ephraem claims that his sermon was written by Ephraem of Nisibis (306 A.D.—373 A.D), considered to be the greatest figure in the history of the Syrian church.”
The Shepherd of Hermas (95-150)
“You have escaped from the great tribulation on account of your faith, and because you did not doubt in the presence of such a beast. Go, therefore, and tell the elect of the Lord His mighty deeds, and say to them that this beast is a type of the great tribulation that is coming. If then ye prepare yourselves, and repent with all your heart, and turn to the Lord, it will be possible for you to escape it, if your heart be pure and spotless, and ye spend the rest of the days of your life serving the Lord blamelessly.”
Victorinus (Well known by 270 and died in 303 A.D.)
His commentary notes in Revelation 6:14 indicate a pretrib reference: “‘And the heaven withdrew as a scroll that is rolled up.’ For the heaven to be rolled away, that is, that the Church shall be taken away. ‘And every mountain and the islands removed from their places’ intimate that in the last persecution all men departed from their places; that is, that the good will be removed, seeking to avoid persecution.”
Robert Borders
I have an interesting book entitled “Apocalyptic Thought in Early Christianity” with Robert J. Daly aa editor. It is published by Baker Academic and has lots of good stuff to chew on.
Dan Irving
I saw that quote of Clement (I had it underlined.) To me, he does not appear to assert anything other than what Peter says regarding Noah as depicting those preserved from wrath (which, in Christ, we are.) Further, I don’t deny we have reason to hope in being saved from the Tribulation, as we are to pray for just that. But remember, it is for the sake of the ELECT, those days are cut short by His appearing. I think that draws a clear limitation as to how far one can run with surmise.
Varnel Watson
Specifically about Ephraem of Nisibis who wrote an important sermon “On the Last Times, the Antichrist and the End of the World.” As a prominent theologian and prolific writer of the Eastern Byzantine church, he advocated for a pretribulational rapture position for the church. Dr. Grant Jeffrey has noted that he had a profound love for the Scriptures. Below is a selected quote that concerns the escape of God’s people from the horrible tribulation. He stated:
“We ought to understand thoroughly therefore, my brothers, what is imminent or overhanging. Already there have been hunger and plagues, violent movements of nations and signs, which have been predicted by the Lord, they have already been fulfilled, and there is not other which remains, except the advent of the wicked one in the completion of hte Roman kingdom. Why therefore are we ovvupied with wordly business, and why is our mind held fixed on the lusts of the world or the anxieties of the ages? Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that He may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms the world? Believe you me, dearest brothers, because the coming of the Lord is nigh, believe you me, because the end of the world is at hand, believe me, because it it the very last time. Or do you not believe unless you see it with your eyes? See to it that this sentence be not fulfilled among you of the prophet who declares: “Woe to those who desire to see the Day of the Lord!” Because all saints and the Elect of the Lord are gathered together before the tribulation which is to about to come and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins. And so brothers, most dear to me, it is the eleventh hour, and the end of this world comes to the harvest, and angels, armed and prepared, hold sickles in their earth exists with blind infidelity, arriving at its downfall early. Commotions are brought forth, wars of diverse peoples and battles and invasions of the barbarians threaten, and our regions shall be desolated, and we neither become very much afraid of the report nor of the appearance, in order that we may at least do penance; because they hurl fear at us, and we do not wish to be changed although we at least stand in need of penance for our actions!
Notice that there is a clear teaching on the rapture of the saints before the terrible tribulation period. This theologian admonishes the people not to desire to see the Day of the Lord? Why? Because in his mind to see the day of the Lord means a person is not a believer. The believers will be snatched away and taken to the Lord before this time period begins. Look closely at what he says again:
”
See to it that this sentence be not fulfilled among you of the prophet who declares: “Woe to those who desire to see the Day of the Lord!” Because all saints and the Elect of the Lord are gathered together before the tribulation which is to about to come and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins.”
Dan Irving
I will accept this as evidence some well-regarded leaders taught PTR. I would observe there may be a mis-assumption that Ephraem was addressing the modern PTR position, when rather, he seems (to me) to be generalizing on last-days-things. This appears from his statement, “the coming of the Lord is nigh . . because the end of the world is at hand . .it is the very last time.” (ie. he appears to wrap up a lot of eschatology in a single sentence if we are working from a Dispensational or from a PTR position.) The Non-PTR position would accept Ephraem’s statement as valid on its face without the need to question sequencing. These would say, “the Day of the Lord is coming, which includes God’s wrath, and therefore, we can expect to be saved from that day by His appearing.” No argument with Ephream. But I think your main interest is with his statement, “the elect of the Lord are gathered out before the tribulation which is about to come and are taken to the Lord.” As a PTR advocate, you make the assumption Ephraem is speaking of a literal 7-year Tribulation (big “T”) and has a working knowledge of (dare I say it,) the Scofield Ref Bible.
Varnel Watson
Dan Irving Also on your question about Darby there were a good number of pre-Darby rapture theorists. Peter Jurieu in his book, Approaching Deliverance of the Church (1687) taught that Christ would come in the air to rapture the saints and return to Heaven before the battle of Armageddon… Philip Doddridge’s commentary on the New Testament (1738) and John Gill’s commentary on the New Testament (1748) both use the term rapture and speak of it as imminent. It is clear these men believed that this coming will precede Christ’s descent to the earth and the time of judgment. The purpose was to preserve believers from the time of judgment. James Macknight (1763) and Thomas Scott (1792) taught that the righteous will be carried to heaven, where they will be secure until the time of judgment is over.
Dan Irving
This is very interesting. BUT, I wonder whether you have a pre-Darby source that actually states what Darby stated, ie. a secret coming to evacuate the saints seven years (or thereabouts) in advance of the Blessed Hope of the Church, which is the Parousia of Jesus Christ and coincident physical resurrection of the elect into immortal bodies. If you do, that would certainly prove your case the doctrine existed in Church history. Although, you would have yet to prove the doctrine from Scripture, which is, of course, the main thing.
Varnel Watson
Philip Doddridge’s commentary on the New Testament (1738) and John Gill’s commentary on the New Testament (1748) both use the term rapture and speak of it as imminent. You Should check them out. There are many others of course
Varnel Watson
oh yes and you better be ready for it Ricky Grimsley
Link Hudson
I believe in the rapture. According to what Paul wrote, the rapture occurs immediately after the resurrection of the dead in Christ, and they that are Christ’s will be made alive’at His coming’.
Some people teach the rapture occurs 7 years before His coming or gave Jesus returning twice. Where does the Bible teach this? I know you can assume it interpret some passages around the assumption, but where does it actually teach it?
Louise Cummings
He doesn’t come all the way to earth, at the Rapture. He comes in the clouds and we are caught up. To meet Him in the air.
Link Hudson
I am not seeing any evidence in scripture that Jesus comes back twice. Wouldn’t the Bible tells us if this were the case? What is the two comings based on?
Varnel Watson
He is not coming back to Earth twice Link
Louise Cummings
He is coming all the way back to earth. To fight for the Jews. And the final war with the devil. All Nations will gathered to fight againstJesus as they see him coming in the battle of Armageddon, Ridding on a day whit horse, with the army’s Of Heaven. That would be the saints of God that was Raptured seven years before. And probably some angels of Heaven to fight the final war with the devil. You can read it all in Revelation chapters 19!!20. Then go to Jude start at verse 14 and read, I would read the rest of the chapter. Or you could read Jude first. Then Revelation.
Link Hudson
Louise Cummings or the saints that were raptured right then…of course there are also the holy angels He returns with in II Thessalonians 1.
Why buy into two second comings in the first place? Why interpret these scriptures through that framework?
Link Hudson
Troy Day is the rapture the coming of Christ in Paul’s letters or not?
Varnel Watson
What?
Louise Cummings
What scripture are you referring to. I am writing about 1st Thessalonians 4:13 -18. Verse 17 tells about meeting Him in the air. The Rapture. Then in Jude and Revelation tells about Him coming back to earth again. And rule for a thousand years. It’s called the Millennium. That’s means Thousand. Same meaning.
Louise Cummings
Revelation 20: 11. Starts telling about where the sinners will. Rise and stand before White Throne Judgement. Verse 13- tells about the sea giving up the dead. And death and dead sinners are raised. Verse 14- says death and Hell were cast into Hohenwald Lake of Fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the Book of Life. Was cast into the Lake of Fire. Thank God in chapter 21: it tells of a ew Heaven and New Earth. Also New Jerusalem. Descending from God out of Heaven.
Louise Cummings
I m trying to write on my eye pad. It won’t hardly write. I’m going back to face book.
Louise Cummings
Ridding on a White Horse. I can’t seem to be able to write on Facebook either. You just have to learn to read between the lines in my writing. That means guess at what I’m saying. Lol.
Link Hudson
Troy Day when Paul writes about the coming of Christ or the revelation of Christ from heaven do uou believe those passages are about Jesus coming for the saints at the rapture or at the Second coming. I do not ser two events but how do you interpret it?
Varnel Watson
Paul did not write the revelation You need to be more specific with the passages you have in mind and I will be more than happy to provide the Greek behind them for a true interpretation
Louise Cummings
He’s going to rule here the second Coming. A thousand years. I think you have it mixed up. He came the first. A little Baby wrapped in swaddling clothes. And grew up to die for us. And He Did. That was His first coming. When He Raptured The Church. He’s not coming to earth. He will steps out on a cloud. And we will go there. Where He told us before He ascended back to Heaven. I’m going to prepared for you. So we will go there How Beautiful it must be. To read how He deveined. His second Coming will be when He comes back, all the way back to earth. Ridding white horse. And the Raptured Saints. That went to meet Him. Will follow him back to earth , ridding on White Horses behind Him. He will come all the way to earth with the Saints. To bind the anti christ and the false prophet. And He will cast the devil into hell first one. That’s the Second Coming.
Louise Cummings
Link Hudson I don’t read where the angels will be with us when we rise out of the grave. It says The last Trump will sound. And the dead in Christ will rise first. And we which are alive and remain. Will be changed in a moment , in the Twinkling of an eye. And we shall rise tighter with the dead in Christ shall go up together to need Him in the air. So shall we ever be with the Lord. It doesn’t say anything about angels helping up. We will go up in the Clouds. Just like Jesus did when He ascended back to the Father. The angels will come at the second Coming. When He binds that old devil. And cast him into the lake of fire. That’s when the angels will come as Jesus Comes back ridding White horses. And we will be with Him.
Louise Cummings
First Thessalonians 4:13. Is the Rapture. Where we get up out of the grave. And the Christians living. Will be changed out of this fleshly body because flesh and bones in our body can’t get into Heaven. That’s why this mortal body will have to be changed to an immortal body. That will never die again. Then we that have been changed to an immortal body and go up as the dead rises. Because they will already have that I mortal body. We will rise together to meet the Lord in the air. That’s the Rapture. In Thessalonians. When the Tribulations are going on. That’s where the mark of the beast comes in. If you miss the Rapture. Don’t take that mark. Let them take your life or behead you , because if you do that. You can still be raised at the end of that seven years. But if you take the mark where you can buy or eat. You are eternally lost. He’ll forever. Let them take your life unless you can hide and get by without the mark. But I don’t think that will be possible. It will might wait until the middle of the Tribulations. Then it might happen at the beginning. But please don’t take the mark. But back to the subject. Thessalonians will be the Rapture. He will not come to earth at this time. We will go up where He is. Because if we are Christians. We will have our glorified body. So we will rise to meet Him. And be in Heaven with Him. Until the second Coming. In Revelation, and Jude tells us. He will come back here. That’s the second Coming of Christ. And we will be with Him, ridding on White horses.
Louise Cummings
Troy Day I would love to read it too. I just have my Bible. But I do have commentaries in some of mine. I’ve got Perry Stones New Testament. That will be a good one to study out. I don’t think I have studied his. I’ve mostly taken the Bible.
Link Hudson
Louise Cummings in II Thessalonians 1, we read that Jesus gives the chirch rest when He returns with His holy angels. So the church needs relief at that time and is apparently still here.
Louise Cummings
Jesus came into our hearts. As soon as we prayed and believed that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. We have to believe that to become a Christian. Romans 10:9. I think is where it’s found. omnipresent means everywhere at the same time, omniscient means all knowing and omnipotent means all powerful. So He is here. Just not in the body where we can see him. Moses when, he was on my The mountain getting the The Ten Commandments. He wanted to see God. The Lord said no man can look upon me and live. In this body. That’s why we will have to be changed to an immortal body. To be able to look upon Him in Heaven. But Job said, when he was going through his trials. The devil was putting him through. Job made this statement. It’s in the Bible. He said though these skin worms devour this body. Yen in the glorified body He was talking about. He said yet in this body , I will see the Lord. It seems like he said in this flesh. He would see the Lord. But that mortal flesh would have to put on immortal body. I would have to look it up , to see exactly how it says it. God appeared to to Moses in the Burning bush. But Moses couldn’t get close enough to see his. God appeared to Abraham when he was one hundred years old. Abraham had a meal fixed for God an two angels. And they ate with Abraham. But He was covered in a body where Abraham couldn’t see His. If. You seen the Lord in this body. It would be so much Glory. Your eyes would consume in their sockets. That’s in the Bible. God is here. Everywhere. But we won’t see Him face to face. Until our bodies are changed.
Louise Cummings
When He comes back to earth. It will be Jesus Himself. And His Holy angels. That will fight the final battle with the devil.
Link Hudson
Troy Day I was referring to the ἀποκάλυψις or παρουσίᾳ of Christ.
Do you interpret these terms to be about the same event? Do you believe they refer to what happens at the rapture or seven years later in your eschatological system?
Louise Cummings
I wish I could understand Hebrew or Greek or Aramaic. But I can’t read those letters. You will have to tell me in English.
Link Hudson
coming or revelation— words for the second coming.
Ricky Grimsley
Actually we meet him in the air on his way here
Link Hudson
Louise Cummings Isn’t that a disrespectful way to use the word ‘God’?
Louise Cummings
What way have I been respectful. The words of the Bible. Is the way to go. I know there was a lot in Hebrew. Probably that I don’t have.
Louise Cummings
If you are talking about the horse. I do apologize. I erased it once. But then I worded it a different way. I haven’t got to kid with Rickey Grimsley. In a while. I apologize Rickey. I was just kidding with you. Surely you knew I was.
Varnel Watson
There you go Link Hudson even Ricky Grimsley has a different view He gonna jump in the air and virtually NO one will be able to see that in a closing of an eye
Link Hudson
Troy Day i believe the Lord is going to raise us up with no Michael Jordan power jumping necessary.
Do you have any __biblical__ reason to reject Ricky Grimsley’s interpretation?
Varnel Watson
Ricky Grimsley he gonna jump and come down in a split second
Link Hudson
Troy Day I do not know how rapid our descent will be when we return with Christ.
Doesn’t it make more sense to believe we will go up and then come down at the second coming than to believe in two returns of Christ without Biblical evidence for it?
Louise Cummings
When He raises the dead in Christ. And we which are alive and remain. Will be changed in a moment. In the twinkling of an eye. And be caught up together with the dead , will all go to meet Him in the air. That’s Pre Trib. While we are in Heaven with Him. The seven year Tribulations will be going on the earth. All I got to say be ready. Be watching. Don’t be like the foolish Virgins in Matthew 25: that missed the Bride Groom. Because their Oil run out. They didn’t have any light. Or Oil. Just keep your lamps all trimmed and burning. For the Bride Groom watch and pray. Just be ready.
Varnel Watson
Link Hudson I dont know I still seem to remember you said the church is not going to heaven anyways
Link Hudson
Troy Day whai I did was ask you where the Bible teaches that the church will go to heaven.
I cannot say all the saints will not be dressed in green pajamas after the day of judgment butI cannot find it in the Bible. The saints going to heaven is infered from certain passages. I do believe tge saints will go up into the heavens ad in the air to meet Christ as He returns. Where foes the Bibke teach that he will start to return then go back?
Louise Cummings
I’m sure the Bible bears it out. We will be dressed in White. Wearing a crown. But we will take our crowns and cast them at the Savior feet. Because He will be the only one worthy.
Louise Cummings
Well He coming down here on White Horses. Where are you going to get yours. Lol.
Varnel Watson
When we all get to heaven Link Hudson you ever sang this song? Hey Ricky Grimsley where is your sonne/sonny friend?
Ricky Grimsley
?
Varnel Watson
your TX friend who argued KJV here; forgot his name already
Ricky Grimsley
Tony conger?
Varnel Watson
was it Tony or Mark – I could never figure his name
Varnel Watson
TRULY BIBLICAL teaching
Daniel J Hesse
That’s a rap!
Dustin Wilcox
I sat down with every end-times and rapture verse I could find, and I read them all over and over and over.
I landed on a post-Trib rapture view.
I saw 1 Thes 4:16-17 links to Matt 24:30-31 and Rev 20:4-6 and 2 Thes 2:1-3.
I felt that Matt 24:32-34 wrecks the “imminence” theory. All of the pre-trib theories I found to have too many holes in them for me to believe in. Especially when the Scripture does not plainly state anything about a pre-trib rapture.
Varnel Watson
Neil Steven Lawrence The RAPTURE is God’s sifting between Sheep & goats.
The Rapture is distinct from the Second Coming. People get confused because some of the Gospel writings and letters of Paul mention both together in the same passage.
If the Rapture does not happen first, then what are the people “left behind” too?
The Rapture is definitely a secret event.
The Second Coming is the most public event ever in human history! http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/the-ancient-church-fathers-believed-in-pre-trib-rapture/
Neil Steven Lawrence
Troy Day that is quite an article!
Lawrence Prabhakar Williams
Troy Day Spot on Correct
Rafe Ronning
Troy Day Playing devils advocate here. Show me in scripture where it talks about a pretribulation rapture.
Varnel Watson
hey Mike Henderson Robert Cox now that you told us about the lil’ horn tell us more about this http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/not-afraid-of-the-antichrist-what-if-everybody-was-left-behind/
Allan Boyd
The Rapture is a made up man doctrine
Varnel Watson
says who? the theological frog in your pocket?
Allan Boyd
Troy Day Jesus Christ comes back only a Second time not a third time
Varnel Watson
Allan Boyd read ON my friend http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/the-ancient-church-fathers-believed-in-pre-trib-rapture/
Allan Boyd
Troy Day I am Roman Catholic and we don’t believe in the Rapture or the Great Tribulation
Varnel Watson
Allan Boyd too bad – read the BIBLE http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/one-thousand-comments-on-the-pre-trib-rapture-of-the-church/
Allan Boyd
Troy Day I do read my Bible
Neil Steven Lawrence
Allan Boyd yeah… The whole church will just float into Purgatory.
Chase Ezacharia
Allan Boyd I know, both rapture and purgatory are made up man doctrine.
Allan Boyd
Chase Ezacharia Purgatory isn’t a man made doctrine
Rafe Ronning
A pre tribulation rapture is not biblical. Jesus is coming back once at the 2nd coming.
Neil Steven Lawrence
Rafe Ronning That is a schizophrenic view… “Go up… now come back down!“ brainless.
Varnel Watson
Neil Steven Lawrence some ppl wanna be left behind
Neil Steven Lawrence
Troy Day yeah… It makes them feel like they can tough it out.
Rafe Ronning
Neil Steven Lawrence the end of the age is when Jesus returns at 2nd coming. People will be given a glorified body and the wicked will be judged
Lawrence Prabhakar Williams
Stay back and enjoy the seven years
Robert Cox
24 CLEAR DISTINCTIONS BETWEEN RAPTURE AND SECOND COMING
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THESE TWO EVENTS ARE CLEARLY NOT THE SAME. QUIT BEING DECEIVED BY DECEIVED MEN.
The following 24 distinctions help to grasp the differences between these two great future events. Keep in mind that the RAPTURE happens BEFORE the 7-year Tribulation period; and then after the 7-years the glorious SECOND COMING (glorious appearing) of our great Lord, King and Savior will happen, when the entire world beholds Him…
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1) At the Rapture, Jesus comes FOR His Church. (John 14:1-3, 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17) At the Glorious Appearing (Second Coming), Jesus comes WITH His Church. (Zechariah 14:5, Colossians 3:4, Jude 14, Revelation 19:14)
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2) At the Rapture, Christians are caught up to meet Jesus in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18) At the Glorious Appearing, Jesus’ feet touch the earth (Zechariah 14:4, Revelation 19:11-21)
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3) At the Rapture, Christians are taken first and unbelievers are left behind. (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18) At the Glorious Appearing, the wicked are taken first, but the righteous (the tribulation saints) are left behind. (Matthew 13:28-30)
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4) At the Rapture, Jesus will gather His Bride, the Church, unto Himself in preparation of the Marriage of the Lamb. (Revelation 19:6-9) At the Glorious Appearing, Jesus will execute judgment on the earth and establish His Kingdom. (Zechariah 14:3-4, Jude 14-15, Revelation 19:11-21)
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5) The Marriage of the Lamb takes place in Heaven AFTER the Rapture of the Church. (Revelation 19:6-9 War on earth comes AFTER the Marriage of the Lamb at the Glorious Appearing when the King of Kings and Lord of Lords lays the smackdown on evil! (Revelation 19:11-21)
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6) The Rapture will happen in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye (Blink. It’s over!). (1 Corinthians 15:52) The Glorious Appearing will be a slow coming. Everyone will see Jesus coming with great power and great glory! (Zechariah 12:10, Matthew 24:30, Revelation 1:7)
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7) At the Rapture, only those who are looking for Him (Christians) will see Him. (1 John 3:2, 1 Corinthians 15:52) At the Glorious Appearing, every eye will see Him and those who have rejected Him will wail. (Revelation 1:7)
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? At the Rapture, Jesus will descend from Heaven with a shout (calling for the saints at the resurrection). (1 Thessalonians 4:16) At the Glorious Appearing, no shout is mentioned, although the Lord does slay the wicked with the sword of His mouth. (Revelation 19:11-21)
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9) At the Rapture, a resurrection will take place. (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, 1 Corinthians 15:51-54) At the Glorious Appearing, there is no resurrection spoken of. (Zechariah 12:10, Zechariah14:4-5, Revelation 1:7, 19:11-21)
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10) The Rapture can happen at any time…maybe even now which is why we are to be WATCHING for the return of Jesus Christ! (Revelation 3:3, 1 Thessalonians 5:4-6) The Glorious Appearing will occur at the end of the seven-year tribulation period. (Daniel 9:24-27, Matthew 24:29-30, 2 Thessalonians 2:3-8)
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11) At the Rapture, no angels are sent to gather the Church.
At the Glorious Appearing, angels will be sent to gather people together for judgment. (Matthew 13:39, 41 & 49, Matthew 24:31, Matthew 25:31, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10)
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12) At the Rapture, those who died in Christ will return with Jesus to recover their resurrected bodies. (1 Thessalonians 4:14-16)
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13) At the Glorious Appearing, Christians will return with Jesus already in their resurrected bodies riding on white horses. (Revelation 19:11-21)
White horse for Jesus or no white horse for Jesus?
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14) At the Rapture, Jesus doesn’t return riding a white horse. At the Glorious Appearing, Jesus will return riding a white horse. (Revelation 19:11)
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15) The Rapture will bring with it a message of hope and comfort. (1 Thessalonians 4:18, Titus 2:13, 1 John 3:3) The Glorious Appearing will bring with it a message of judgment. (Joel 3:12-16, Malachi 4:5, Revelation 19:11-21)
World is deceived. (2 Thessalonians 2:3-12) Satan is bound. (Revelation 20:1-2)
Focus: Lord and Church. (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18) Focus: Israel and Kingdom. (Matthew 24:14)
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16) No signs precede Rapture. (1 Thessalonians 5:1-3) Signs precede Second Coming. (Luke 21:11,15)
Tribulation begins. Millennial kingdom begins.
Removal of believers. (1 Thessalonians 4:17) Manifestation of Christ. (Malachi 4:2) Jesus claims His bride. Jesus comes with His bride. (Revelation 19:6-14)
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17) Marriage Supper Of The Lamb follows the Rapture. (Revelation 19:9) The Great Supper of the wicked follows the Tribulation. (Revelation 19:17)
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18) The world will not see Jesus at the Rapture; but rather, believers ascend go to meet Him in the air. (1 Thessalonians 4:17) Jesus will descend bodily and visibly for all to see, just as He ascended bodily and visibly. (Acts 1:9-11)
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19) The Judgment Seat Of Christ follows the Rapture. (2nd Corinthians 5:9-11) The Judgment of the Nations follows the Tribulation (Matthew 24:32-46)
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20) Believers receive a new, immortal, glorified body fashioned like unto the Lord’s. (Philippians 3:21; 1 Corinthians 15:51-54) Saints saved during the Tribulation enter into the Millennial kingdom with their earthly bodies. (Isaiah 65:20)
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21) The Antichrist is revealed after the Rapture. (2 Thessalonians 2:8) The Antichrist is defeated and cast into the Lake of Fire at the Second Coming. (Revelation 19:20)
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22) Israel is persecuted during the Tribulation. Two-in-three Jews in Israel are killed. (Zechariah 13:8-9) Israel is regathered. (Jeremiah 23:5-8)
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23) World government (New World Order) follows the Rapture. (Revelation 13:15) Christ’s reign and government follows the Second Coming. (Daniel 2:34-35
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24) World famine, pestilence, war and sorrow follow the Rapture. (Matthew 24:6-10; Luke 17:31) World peace follows Christ’s Second Coming when He reigns from Jerusalem (Isaiah 11:6)
Varnel Watson
oops Neil Steven Lawrence Rafe Ronning
Joseph Geranio
Yes read pauls epistles. Thessalonians
Dan Fitzgerald
YES… but not at the time period the person who created the drawing in this post has it set at; he’s 7 years behind time…!
Jeremy Belter
Yes judgement day
John Mergan
The word Paul used in his epistle in the greek is harpazo which means to snatch up or to seize
John Mergan
That is one of the many beautiful things about the Greek language it is very precise.
Lord’s Day Frog Memes
Are any of the other views of eschatology not also acceptable? There can only be one that is correct, however each position uses Scripture to prove their view