Do PENTECOSTALS still believe that one can be demon possessed?

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Do PENTECOSTALS still believe that one can be demon possessed? 

1. When was the last time you cast out a demon?

2. When was the last time you witness a demon being cast out?

Matthew 10:5-8 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

Luke 4:33-37 And in the synagogue there was a man, which had a spirit of an unclean devil, and cried out with a loud voice, Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art; the Holy One of God. And Jesus rebuked him, saying, Hold thy peace, and come out of him. And when the devil had thrown him in the midst, he came out of him, and hurt him not. And they were all amazed, and spake among themselves, saying, What a word is this! for with authority and power he commandeth the unclean spirits, and they come out. And the fame of him went out into every place of the country round about.

We won a man to our church who brought a whole bunch of people to our church. The mother of one of the families was a very interesting person.
She came to a dinner we had and somehow she found out I was the Pastor and wanted to chat with me. So, I sat at her table to talk and oh my goodness!!! The stuff that came out of her mouth was beyond triple X rated.  

This woman had knowledge of many different religions and had melded them together to come up with this weird belief system. She was extremely jealous of her husband, she was seriously addicted to marijuana, she was extremely angry, extremely bitter, vicious when she would attack people, I believe she was schizophrenic, her children tried to avoid her, her siblings stayed away from her and she could come up with a lie on someone so fast your head would spin. I had never dealt with someone like this before.

One night, I was called to her daughter and son-in-laws house to help them deal with this woman. We sat down and tried to talk through some of the problems they were having. All of a sudden this woman went into a rage (demonic rage) and started accusing her daughter and son-in-law of all kinds of horrible things. We tried to get her to stop but she wouldn’t she continued on for quite a long time.

I told my wife and the couple to not say anything, not to listen to the lies and not to react to her just to pray. At some point, she must have realized what she was saying was not working and then she turned on me. She came up with some stuff that made my hair stand on end. As soon as she started in on me, my wife and I began to immediately rebuke this woman/spirit with everything we had in us. After about 10-15 minutes of serious rebuking, praying and quoting of scripture she finally stopped.

Since this incident, I had to ask her not to come back to the church for a while and after that period of time she came back, we began working with her and the change in this woman is amazing. She is not perfect but she is nothing like what we first saw. God is so good!

Troy Day Troy Day says:

Some do Some dont Until they get into the streets of real ministry and they just dont have a choice to believe it Street Preacherz

We are generally well masked and medicated in America

Shane Snow Shane Snow says:

I saw a girl get possessed when i was a teenager but i didnt know jesus at the time so she was helpless, later i prayed for her daughter and a mirlce happened when i did know jesus, today i prayed for a chatolic ladie that i felt was having demons , she always wore a colorful dress or some robe or something but looked down trodden and in bondage, i asked father to cast out any demon in here today and when i went out by the lake she had on a clean black shirt and was walking her dog and actually looked differnt.

I have seen a demon possessed young man rip a huge family Bible in half in Church. He then proceeded to vomit something green while praying for him.

Lisa Hailey Lisa Hailey says:

Yes I’ve seen it!

I will interject simple truth into this thread…first, the scriptures are clear that the “strong man” of the house will not co-habitate with another “strong man.” Therefore, to be both possessed by a demon and be the possession of Christ is not scriptural. Secondly, I have, through the name of Jesus and with the guidance of the Holy Ghost, cast out many manifesting demons over the years. Some have manifest in open, dramatic fashion, while others have begun to do so, at which time the Holy Ghost would simply speak to me to take authority over that spirit. In my own ministry I have never felt the need to physically restrain any person manifesting. However, we do find that there were times that Jesus cast demons out that were actively injuring those within whom they had taken up residence. It was recorded that the spirits “tare” them, and they fell down wallowing and foaming. I have personally witnessed this type of activity, and I have never ministered outside of the U.S. I have cast out spirits of infirmity in a Hospital room with the patient lying in the floor (where the spirit had thrown them), unrestrained. I have cast out spirits of the psychologically insane sort (don’t know how to label those) and seen individuals leave in their right mind. Most of these have happened within the last decade. There are prayerless individuals who do not believe that demon possession happens, but if ardent prayer leads the charge, there will be times when the church will find it necessary to cast out demons bent upon control. If we get too much human theology into this, we will find a way to explain it away. However, at the very best and most scholarly, we look through a glass darkly…

Troy Day Troy Day says:

Deuteronomy 23:2 “One of illegitimate birth shall not enter the assembly of the Lord; even to the tenth generation none of his descendants shall enter the assembly of the Lord.” – just think about the for a moment (1) how much do we really know the Word f the Lord, (2) how many today fall under curse we have today (3) how many such ;resent during worship without being washed in the blood (4) how does this affect them (5) how does this affect the church that allows / tolerates it

Ok, where to start:

Being totally serious,
(So, going back 10 generations on both sides of the family) I thought the sins/iniquities of the Father was to the third and fourth generation – four times stated in the Pentateuch.

First time I have heard of some one casting a devil out of themselves – what about those that come out only by prayer and fasting?

Why are they laying on them and holding them down?
Jesus and the disciples did not.
Just the seven sons of Sceva did and they lost that conflict.

And the director of the prayer saying, “if I have dominated or controled someone in a wrong way”, (is there a correct way)?.

Anyone following this example is in serious trouble.
It is not even close to what I am talking about.
They maybe be Acts 10:38 (oppressed) but I doubt many if any possessions where casted out.
I would question any Acts10:38s.

Deliverance – delivered from themselves.

Wow, I would not be anywhere even closely associated with it.

Please think about this; many so called christians today practice magic, they Play with the ouiji board, they look at tarot cards, practice “white” magic because it’s “good” magic. Or after church they go off and do things that are foul. So you don’t see these things when they are standing in front of you, but only the “Christian” stamp on the forehead. I don’t understand how in 30 years you cannot see and discern that difference. I don’t mean that in a negative way I promise. but I wonder because it’s quite easy to tell if someone is walking with God or not, if they are believers or not – these are elementary to the way of the cross. We should know that believers do fall, and that is something we all go through, but there is world’s of difference from a believer and a claimer.

This video doesn’t come close to what a possessed person would act like.

But there is a false Holy Spirit floating around these days though in some charismatic circles. I have seen many of these in the churches first hand. It’s the uncontrollable jerking, laughing, weird noise making “holy spirit” that mocks God’s Spirit. Funny because these same bodily movements and noise they make are only a PG13 version of a possession. This new movement reminds me of the false spirits in revelation that Korn singer and some other celebrities are promoting.

Troy Day Troy Day says:

Start watching after the 25th minute

It takes them 25 minutes to start to get people deliverence?
Troy Day
The one you told us about on the Island that was nameless, you said it was over in 2-3 minutes.
Ask yourselves why this took 25+ minutes, if it took at all.

Hi Troy Day. Did these Christians have the Holy Ghost? I the thought of repented saved Christians possessed. Because someone who claims to be Christians does not make them a Christian. When I used to claim I was a christian when I was younger but i did not truly become a Christian until later – not that I was growing in faith, but that I did not truly repent of my sins in Jesus name until later. And it was after repentance that I was convinced in my heart that i was a follower of Jesus.

Troy Day Troy Day says:

Many in these deliverance session are saved Christians and as Robert Borders pointed out some were known pastors from the area

Possession is not handled in sanctification.
It is a salvation issue.
I hate to call into question her pastor, but satan is tricky and has wiles.
Sometimes we believers and ministers see and wish the best when it is not there.
A group of us – 3 ministers, the two parents, and a couple laity were casting devils out of a young woman. It seemed as though she had been delivered. The others in the group were greatful and relaxed. I discerned differently and addressed the person again calling forth the devils.
The devil’s looked at me and said, “shut up, why don’t you go somewhere else, you know too much, we can fool them why can’t I fool you?”
Two other devils were casted out and True salvation occurred.
The others in the room questioned how and why only I knew. They wondered why they missed them.
They discerned the others, how did they miss the last two, the most powerful two.
You see, devils will not manifest unless threatened, angry, or needing to act out for other reasons.

Jesus spoke of the strong man of the house.
Matt 12, Mark 3, Luke 11.
Luke 11:21-22
When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace: But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils.
Mark 3:27
No man can enter into a strong man’s house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.

Here is a question,
If we are Christians then Jesus (the Spirit if God’s Son) dwells in our hearts. He is then our strong man.
Can satan enter in unless he binds Jesus our strong man.
If Jesus is bound by another spirit inside of us, are we then true believers and Christians?
Will Jesus stay in a house where He is bound?

Now let’s reverse that.
As Luke continues the thought to those possessed with devils and them being freed
Luke 11:14-26
And He was casting out a devil, and it was dumb. And it came to pass, when the devil was gone out, the dumb spake; and the people wondered. But some of them said, He casteth out devils through Beelzebub the chief of the devils. And others, tempting him, sought of him a sign from heaven. But he, knowing their thoughts, said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and a house divided against a house falleth. If Satan also be divided against himself, how shall his kingdom stand? because ye say that I cast out devils through Beelzebub. And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your sons cast them out? therefore shall they be your judges. But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you. * When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace: But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils.
* He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathereth not with me scattereth.

*When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will return unto my house whence I came out. And when he cometh, he findeth it swept and garnished. Then goeth he, and taketh to him seven other spirits more wicked than himself; and they enter in, and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first.

1) Jesus enters by binding the strong man and spoiling satan’s goods – us and his control on us.
2) Jesus then said we are for Him and with Him and gather, or we are against Him and scatter.
– we can’t do and be both.
3) the unclean spirit Goes Out of a man – it just does not decide to leave, it expelled by Jesus moving in?
4) he (the evil spirit) returns to find it swept, garnished – notice swept garnished, but it does not say filled. It can only return to an uninhabited dwelling place..
5) so he goes and gets seven more
Wicked than himself – he could not get back in by himself even with it not being filled. He could not hold his house alone. They enter in and dwell – inhabit, live there, abide/abode. (See note on Revelation later in the thread).
6) the last state is worse than the first – how is the last state worse than the first if Jesus is now there (or for the sake of conversation – if Jesus is there also)?

Dual habitation between Jesus’ Spirit and a devil makes no biblical or theological sense.

I would also examine (continued from point 5 above)….
Revelation of John 3:19-22
As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Jesus will come in and sup with us and us with Him;
After His chastisement due to Him loving us, after we are zealous and REPEAT, after we *hear His voice and we *OPEN the door.
I do not see where an evil spirit is invited at the same time. (it was written to the church), we are the church.

I believe complete cleansing deals with the “every weight” in Hebrews chapter 12 verse 1 in addition to the “sin”.
I do not from my biblical study or personal application of the same see that applied to possession.

Just my thoughts.

Troy Day Troy Day says:

In the testimony of her pastor, truly saved and clearly showing sings of Christian living. The church she belonged to for several years was branch of the church where we ministered (same organization different city location) And yes I have other even more drastic first hand experiences from deliverance ministry… How do we justify all that with Biblical demonology?

And an important point you are making. How do we make sure people who are getting saved are also delivered from demons / generational curses? Do we pray for this by default or should all these come out in entire / progressive sanctification ? Does progressive sanctification allow for any such incidents to occur in any given point of the life of a saved Christian until complete cleansing is reached ?

Troy Day
Accord to scripture
The young lady’s experience would have to be examined on two counts
1) if she was truly saved, not just saying words from the mouth, but believing with the heart.
2) what happened recently in her life just before that service occurred to trigger the change?
One of those two happened.

You see, those around her may have thought she was saved (she could have as well), and the spirits just stayed underground , hidden. Jude talks about those -professing salvation coming in unawares being ungodly.

I ask,
How could she be in that state in her home church under her home pastor with believers and it took a service elsewhere to reveal what was hidden at home.. (?).

It is because the territorial spirits – like the prince of Persia in Daniel over a specific area. Being in a specific area the spirit was not prepared for those ministers of God coming in from other places who mix things up bringing fresh differing understanding the spirits can’t handle.

I have a friend that travels to Africa often who tells of occurrences like this.
It is almost common place.
Thousands a night getting saved, healed, delivered, Spirit filled.

Another point.
I have had times we held people down and wrestled them.
I don’t any longer.
Jesus did not wrestle spirits down or hold them when He casted them out.
It shows a lack of understanding of our commission, ability through Christ, authority, and the power through the work of Jesus.

We yet again need to revisit the miracles of Jesus and the disciples.
(Those wrestling the devil lost – they were the seven sons of Sceva).

Charles Page Charles Page says:

David, if I believed as you do I also would be bearing that heavy burden (that men lay upon you)

I am not bearing a heavy burden,
It is on them, I was not in control of the service.

Charles Byrd
Why would you not have lifted a hand to lighten their burden and offer deliverence?

Charles Page Charles Page says:

They didn’t have demons to be delivered from.

Charles Page
You amaze me. You shouldn’t, but you do.

I am so glad that I don’t have to be subject to your error.

Charles Page Charles Page says:

David Lewayne Porter that works the same with me!!!

Charles Page Charles Page says:

How deep and how wide is the love of God who can discover the width and depth of our wonderful God.

Charles Page
Me, myself can discover the width and depth of God’s love.
But in addition to your two dimensional love of God, my God’s love is breadth, length, depth, and height.
Because I am part of the church.
Ephesians 3:18-19
May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

May God bring you up to that level so you come behind in nothing concerning God’s goodness.

Charles Page Charles Page says:

David Lewayne Porter your prayers to that end are encouraged. I too will pray for you and our prayers will be mutual.

Then you would except the fate of them going to hell and their deliverance was within reach of your hands?
Please explain why Charles Page.

I am free from the judgement of them not being delivered, leadership will answer for it on that day.

Troy Day Troy Day says:

We were ministering on an island the name of which I will not reveal. Held 25 services in two weeks in various locations some connected directly to Bible events. On the last day we held a larger event with some 600 people in attendance. Many of them ministers with their families were seated on the front roads. The service went on for about 4 going on 5 hours with several speakers. We ministered last and opened the altars. As soon as we began praying for unsaved people in the community / island a young girl who has been sitting on the front, singing during worship and so on screamed with a horrific voice and charged the pulpit. The lady next to her later said the body of the girl swarmed like a snake. Three ushers about my size tried to restrain her with no success but holding her back for a short time. She then took a chair and attack all 3 at the same time holding the chair as a weapon – legs pointing at them and hitting them in the chest until pressed to the wall. At which point were able to approach command the demon out and watch her body follow the same motion as before but now on the floor. No understandable words were heard but the screams were simply blood thickening. Whole thing lasting under 2-3 min. after which she quieted down, some ladies proceeded to pray with her and we prayed for a number of new souls never seen anything alike and scared beyond themselves. When she came to herself she was completely normal with no memories of what happened.

Now in the aftermath, we were approached by one of the ministers in the crowd who was her pastor. The girl, obviously not a hard core sinner, came from a family associated with occult (her grandmother, aunt and maybe sister). The mother has reported similar accidents but never manifested in church before. The girl was saved, regularly attended church with her family and occasionally was on the praise team; which dully brings the question about deliverance of the believer after salvation. Some may even see this as part of Wesleyan sanctification and renewal. But if nothing else, it bids the question as per the possibility of such occurrence among (dare I say saved) believers within the church. Terry Wiles Robert Borders David Lewayne Porter

Charles Page Charles Page says:

respectfully I disagree, I agree with your leadership then.

I have also had situations in reverse of Charles.
I discerned at two different times (in church services) those needing deliverence.
In one case the lady never got born again and died in an accident in a state of adultery.
The other was a young man who left the service still bound and he hung himself two weeks later.

In both of these cases the church leadership thought I was just looking for devils and would not let me handle the situation at hand.

There are no points that are always there.
It takes the leading of the Holy Spirit as well as wisdom, knowledge, and discernment for each and every person, situation, and
(spirit / demon / devil).

Respect to you brothers.

Now as far as me personally,
I have seen and handled,
(You know of the gentleman at my house and the dog had to be put down).

I have seen lights leave the body of people, go into walls, and laugh at the believer’s who aided their deliverance.

Green goo thrown up laying in the floor laughing and talking.

Black goo thrown up laying in the floor shaking talking.

Small bodied people trying to be restrained by multiple men 250# to over 300# and the gentlemen trying to restrain them getting thrown around as if they were lite weight pillows.

Voices non-human, and other things I will not even discuss here.

Shortened version,
A young man came to my house (in my yard) for counseling, due to sensing something was not right my wife and I pressed him on the point. Spirits manifested. Over a few minutes he was saved, sanctified, Holy Ghost filled with the evidence of speaking in tongues. At that exact moment the neighbors loving collie ran up to the property line growling, snarling, foaming at the mouth. We wrestled it down in old quilts and took it to the animal shelter. We checked a few days later and they said she had to be put to sleep due to being too aggressive.

Charles Page Charles Page says:

fantasy, illusions and hysteria!

No, not at all.
Glad you were not there Charles.
I would have given you your leave.

Troy Day Troy Day says:

David Lewayne Porter Would you pls repost your experience with demonized people. I’ve looked for an hour and could not find to re-read it. Thanks

Charles Page Charles Page says:

I had two distinct cases where it was said the person was demon possessed In neither case did I discern demon possession. But the people around then said they were possessed. They wanted a deliverance. I never did a deliverance but did oversee the ones who attempted deliverance. No demons were cast out. There were none to exorcise!

I was honest and sincere so I was left with the accusations that I was hindering because I was not believing. That is a poor reason for why they were not delivered from demons. Five hours and two boxes of kleenex and still no deliverance.

Now as a pastor if I had left there would have been a deliverance!!! No, I said I am staying for the whole session and no deliverance. Experientially, that is reason enough for me. It does not work.

Charles Page Charles Page says:

It is group manipulation and control. Say it over and over and the crowd will believe you and after the eventual convulsions from throat breathing some phelm will be produced and a kleenex will display the demon.

You see,
Troy Day
Now that is what I have been trying to get to.
“Demons can and will speak through people attending church…..”

I simply stated that a true Christian /believer can’t be possessed of a demon/devil.

How many times did I say that brother?
And you would reaffirm a statement as if just because someone was standing in the church they were a true believer and can manifest evil spirits.

No more, no less
My stance
A true saved believing Christian can not be (at the same time) Possessed with a devil/demon.

It does not matter if they are in the altar, church, during service or not, or as most of the ones I have dealt with,
Out side the church.

Short simple, my stance – biblically.

No more to say.
I can’t state it any more plain.

Troy Day Troy Day says:

I don’t necessarily disagree with what you last said bro. David. I will share several cases that have actually happened to us in services around the world and cannot be put in the boxed theology of believers can or cant or whatever. Demons spoke through people attending church during preaching and prayer and they had to be cast out much like in the times of Jesus. Several attacked physically to the point of having to be restrained. I did not have a way of knowing if the people demons manifested through were truly and entirely saved and had no time to inquire. We simply cast the demon/s out. You may agree with me that asking a question concerning ministry is neither sin nor a statement. We are all searching for the truth here (I think)

The devil will help you sing amazing grace.

Dearest Pastor with all due love and respect. The doors are always open to those in need of Christ His mercy grace peace and TESHUWA. from proverbs 21:32 translated safety, salvation, deliverance, victory, gotta run,
… much love bro joe

Charles Page Charles Page says:

Are there pigs in the church’s parlor?

Or in the pulpits?

Troy Day Troy Day says:

Did the parlor in the book with the same name about the church or the home? Watch out Robert Borders they will eat you alive if you suspect that a preacher is controlled by a demon and speaks demons. Hence the relevance of spirit of antichrist in church today Dan Irving

When a grown man looses his mind it’s no cliché. Jesus is the same yesterday today and forever! There is no health like mental health! !!! I know I’m ignorant and foolhardy but people need help and Jesus can help them!!!

Charles Page Charles Page says:

Good clichés

Troy Day Troy Day says:

What spirit would possess a person to drink strong wine and then try to speak in tongues? Alan N Carla Smith

Charles Page Charles Page says:

Same Spirit Christ had

Troy Day Troy Day says:

The sad day is when the Great Comission turns to a Great Omission because too many preachers theologize instead of praxticing the Gospel

It’s a sad day when people don’t get the help they need in the house of God. Especially when they want help and seek God for help. Do you say Let’s fight this evil together or, comeback after you see the psych?

Charles Page Charles Page says:

It does draw a good audience

Charles Page Charles Page says:

Even with pre-mil /dipsy I still didn’t get into deliverance ministry
More psychological than theological

Generally true but occasionally run into the real thing. Actually often a combination of both and counseling is often need with and after deliverance.

Thank you for standing up for deliverance. Jesus was and is an exorcist. Casting out the t.v. is not as meaningful as it once was with media so readily available on our phones. But it’s a good start. The t.v. is a one eyed demon!!! LOL

Troy Day Troy Day says:

Straw man technique as well – trying to prove an argument that no one is really arguing . Like some imaginary difference between possession and oppression that is not in the Biblical text and Jesus himself never addressed. When Jesus met a demoniac (demonized person) He never conversed with them if they were saved or in covenant or did they just made sacrificed and were under the blood of the sacrifice. It was namely because they were Israelites in a covenant relationship with God by birth, that Jesus simply cast the demon out. Period!

As many times as we have had demon or demons manifest themselves during preaching or altar call, we did not ask if they saved or baptized. It was irrelevant. The Great Commission commands to cast the demon out regardless if the person is saved or not saved. If I get more time in the next few days I will share a few notable cases from our deliverance ministry just as a practical application. And as a reference that the whole thing about possessed/oppressed or saved/not saved is not even a question when a demonized person attacks you physically during prayer and an immediate response is needed. The possessed/oppressed or saved/not saved is an argument from silence that is simply irrelevant. Now this is what Jesus actually said about the real way demons operate. One can interpret if the clean house is a saved person or not:

Matthew 12:43. “When an unclean spirit goes out of a man, he goes through dry places, seeking rest, and finds none.
44 “Then he says, ‘I will return to my house from which I came.’ And when he comes, he finds it empty, swept, and put in order.
45 “Then he goes and takes with him seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter and dwell there; and the last state of that man is worse than the first. So shall it also be with this wicked generation.”

Troy Day
You were the one asking if a christian and believer could be demon possessed.
Did you not?

I said they could not.
I agree that when a person in the church manifest a devil, it needs to be addressed.
My statements were directed as to you saying a believer could be.

Here is the question for you concerning this post.

If you don’t ask if they are saved
If it is irrelevant – and it is,
Then you still don’t know if a believer can be or is possessed.

That is my point.

Right there Troy Day.
Right there,
Allow me to use your words.
and YOU say still a christian – show that in the Bible.
Why do you think Paul said to turn such as one over to satan?
Paul had enough sense to know that it was not to be so.
As far as still operating a spiritual gift – I guess you think satan’s soothsayers are using God’s giftings?
I guess you thing those possessed speaking in false tongues,are from God?
And jezebel operating in a “spiritual gift” – not from God.
As far as still “CALLED” – I love the fact you phrased it that way, (c)hristian (by whom)?, still a member of the church – shame on the church, still on the pastors council – glad you have finally shown your true sources – extra biblical,

And you still don’t get what is truly happening with devils manifesting themselves in church while – true believing pastors preach the blood of the Eternal Son of God from the pulpit….
LoL, most of those I have helped to be delivered have not been during church services.

Maybe you missed this,
Jude 4
For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Did Jude call them brothers?
Did Jude call them Christians?
Did Jude call them believers?

But you do?
I wonder why?
I wonder why you can’t discerning that they may be AMOUNG us but are not OF US,
1 John 2:18
Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
BUT it seems once you get their name on your roll you keep them at all costs…
I wonder why.??

1 John 2:19
They went out from us,
*oh, they may be on your (paper) roll.
but they were not of us;
*name on the book of man, holding offices but NOT OF US… WOW,

for if they had been of us,
*they would no doubt have continued with us:
sounds like (they that endure to the end….
Or the overcomers of Revelation chapters 2 and 3.

but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
* manifested to not all have been of us,
And yet the church tries to keep them and justify them.

Keep your 30 years of experience,
It can’t help me in bringing any one true deliverance.

Dan Irving Dan Irving says:

But what does that phrase mean, “they went out from us?”

Dan Irving
Context of the set of verses,
From us (verses) of us.
They did not continue – with us.
((Notice *us* used verses *they*)).
The meaning and purpose of they – went out – to manifest that they were NOT OF US.

Simple enough for anyone with eyes to see and ears to hear.

Matthew Henry commentary says this,
Some account of these seducers or antichrists. 1. More positively. They were once entertainers or professors of apostolical doctrine: “They went out from us (1 John 2:19), from our company and communion;” possibly from the church of Jerusalem, or some of the churches of Judea, as Acts 15:1, Certain men came down from Judea, and taught the brethren, &c. The purest churches may have their apostates and revolters; the apostolic doctrine did not convert all whom it convinced of its truth. 2. More privately. “They were not inwardly such as we are: But they were not of us; they had not from the heart obeyed the form of sound doctrine delivered to them; they were not of our union with Christ the head.” Then here is, (1.) The reason upon which it is concluded that they were not of us, were not what they pretended, or what we are, and that is their actual defection: “For, if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us (1 John 2:19); had the sacred truth been rooted in their hearts it would have held them with us; had they had the anointing from above, by which they had been made true and real Christians, they would not have turned antichrists.” Those that apostatize from religion sufficiently indicate that, before, they were hypocrites in religion: those who have imbibed the spirit of gospel truth have a good preservative against destructive error. (2.) The reason why they are permitted thus to depart from apostolical doctrine and communion–that their insincerity may be detected: But this was done (or they went out) that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us,.

Dan Irving Dan Irving says:

This whole line appears an apples-to-oranges deflection in the argument. The original question was whether a Christian could be demonically bound. And now, we are somehow involved in an explanation of antichrist. This is unfortunate, as I see a potential of unrighteous judgment by mixing these two very distinct principles. I might not have “ears to hear,” but I think I have logical sense.

We got here because Troy was trolling with his original post.
It was intended to get us to (can a believer be demon possessed)? As discussed by Troy many times before.
The antichrist(s) was brought in to show that not everyone who calls themselves christians, and not everyone considered by others to be Christians are.

That being said,
If one considered christian is (possessed to where they lose control over their faculties and selves) then they may very well be possessed, but they are not at that moment a believer/Christian according to the biblical standard.

There are the apple to apples and orange to oranges.
No deflection, it is called rightly dividing.

(2 Peter 2:1 KJV) But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

It is unfortunate but true. The devil knows his Bible and can quote it. A stack of Bibles under their arm dies not make them devout, pious, or true. Have you read “screwtape letters?”

Tis grace hath brought me safe thus far. Tis grace shall lead me home!!!

Troy Day Troy Day says:

2 Pet. 2:20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.

How are they worse off Troy Day
If they are still (now) a believer and christian?
Your argument defeats itself.

I submit this for the sake of discussion. I don’t claim to be a theologin.
Pentecostals still believe that one can be demon possessed? “One” being defined as a member of the human race. Yes. “Possessed” being controlled by evil spirits. Yes. However, if I steal my neighbors my neighbors bike. I possess it. I control it, but I don’t own it. It’s not mine.
This is an example. I was preaching on Milwaukee’s fashionable East side. One Muslim wanted to beat me up, his friend intervened.
At the same time an ambulance drove by and was using their speaker system to growl, “praise satan.”
This is a fine company. Well respected and very professional. The ambulance driver actually went around the block and came back with ice cream music playing to drown out the preaching. The man, the ER guy, is one of an elite. Generally speaking E.R. people are conscientious and caring people. They are the type that don’t even get a parking ticket. Good people.
However being a slave to sin and a child of darkness, an evil spirit was able to “pull his strings.” If his boss was there or his mother or some other restraining power was there he would not have acted this way.
It was so bizarre my friend who was with me asked, “what just happened” I said, God just exposed the devil.

There is alot of evil in this world some of it is undercover. People living what they think is a good moral life will act out when confronted with the gospel of Jesus Christ. And spirits in hiding can only be exposed by preaching Jesus Christ. Demons must be confronted and exposed. It is possible to preach with boldness and kindness. authority and compassion. And to be direct without being rude.
The short answer is yes. Absolutely people in modern times can be controlled and possessed by demons.

Troy Day Troy Day says:

There you go Dan Finally someone that makes sense for the ministry. Saved – tempted – fallen in temptation – fallen from grace – bound and eventually possessed but still called Christian, still member in the church, still on the pastors council and God forbid still “operating” a previous spiritual gift like did Jezabel. And then we wonder why demons manifest themselves in church while we preach the Blood of the Eternal Son of God from the pulpit… #noughsaid

Right there Troy Day.
Right there,
Allow me to use your words.
and YOU say still a christian – show that in the Bible.
Why do you think Paul said to turn such as one over to satan?
Paul had enough sense to know that it was not to be so.
As far as still operating a spiritual gift – I guess you think satan’s soothsayers are using God’s giftings?
I guess you thing those possessed speaking in false tongues,are from God?
And jezebel operating in a “spiritual gift” – not from God.
As far as still “CALLED” – I love the fact you phrased it that way, (c)hristian (by whom)?, still a member of the church – shame on the church, still on the pastors council – glad you have finally shown your true sources – extra biblical,

And you still don’t get what is truly happening with devils manifesting themselves in church while – true believing pastors preach the blood of the Eternal Son of God from the pulpit….
LoL, most of those I have helped to be delivered have not been during church services.

Maybe you missed this,
Jude 4
For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Did Jude call them brothers?
Did Jude call them Christians?
Did Jude call them believers?

But you do?
I wonder why?
I wonder why you can’t discerning that they may be AMOUNG us but are not OF US,
1 John 2:18
Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
BUT it seems once you get their name on your roll you keep them at all costs…
I wonder why.??

1 John 2:19
They went out from us,
*oh, they may be on your (paper) roll.
but they were not of us;
*name on the book of man, holding offices but NOT OF US… WOW,

for if they had been of us,
*they would no doubt have continued with us:
sounds like (they that endure to the end….
Or the overcomes of revelation chapters 2 and 3.

but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
* manifested to not all have been of us,
And yet the church tries to keep them and justify them.

Keep your 30 years of experience,
It can’t help me in bringing any one true deliverance.

Dan Irving Dan Irving says:

A member of the body of Christ may certainly come under bondage to demonic control when he/she does not resist temptation and rather indulges the flesh, covetous desire, egotism, etc. Why else would Paul warn us against coming under Sin’s dominion by not resisting such things? (Rom 6:14) In fact, the ministry is particularly susceptible to falling prey in this way, being given over to excited lusts, greed, or and/or vain-glory, only to be placed on public display as a trophy of the Devil and a slander of the faith. (Do I need to name names?)

Hi Troy Day,

(1 John 2:18 KJV) Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
(1 John 2:19 KJV) They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

This shows that, although Judas Iscariot was among the 12 he was not of them. His heart was never there. And about that Corinthian being handed over to Satan, he is not being handed over to be possessed but to be disciplined, God being merciful, before there’s no return. This reminds me of Israel being chastised by God. Whenever Israel behaves God gives them prosperity yet when they rebel God sends the neighbors to whoop them in shape to come back to Himself. Same with our everyday lives. Things just won’t turn out right when I screw up.
(Leviticus 26:28 KJV) Then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins.

Medo-Persia after Babylon reigned over the earth and the jews in the physical world, yet in the spiritual world a prince of Persia reigned and the angel was captured by him.
This tells me that Persia is not Israel and is not within or a part of Israel, but it can harm Israel from without.
So those persons were never loved the Lord with their heart, mind, and soul. They were simply infiltrators who were inwardly wolves and outwardly sheep and Judas Iscariot is a prime example. Jesus knew his heart was not for the poor when he loathed the perfume being poured on the Lord’s feet.

Troy Day Troy Day says:

Bro. David I will be happy to answer any of your questions on demonology I can from my ministry experience and years of theological education after church tonight, but here;s a few NT examples to consider:

1. Judas – an elect apostle of Christ was later possessed by Satan

2. The Corinthian church was ordered by the apostle Paul to 1 Corinthians 5:5 hand this man over to Satan – which tells us that not just a man but via sin whole churches (ecclessias) could be demonized

3. This goes with the theology of Apostle John who is the only one to mention the Spirit of AntiChrist in the New Testament and seems to be considering that many antichrist(s) have come out of the saved people in the (church) ecclesia. Not sure if you consider a person with the spirit of antichrist oppressed or depressed, but since such terminology is not Biblical we can most certainly consider them under the proper Biblical terms demonized and bound by Satan.

4. Apostle John furthermore calls one such gathering (ecclessia) the Synagogue/Church of Satan

5. In Revelation we read about Jazabel ruling one of the church. This is not just a spirit, but a spirit with Old Testament manifestation who is now prominent in a Christian church ruling over saved and Spirit filled people who are further commanded to hear what the Spirit is saying to the Church. Please note here that many theologians consider Jezabel to be the very much saved Lydia, Paul’s first convert in Philippi (Acts 16.14). The mention of Jezabel in Revelation has a further church / state apocalyptic political connotation, but we will not go that deep for now

Finally, virtually all demoniaks (demonized people) in the NT were in covenant with God (at least in one time). Some of them were even children which forgoes your whole statement about being saved (via a conscious decision of accepting Jesus in one’s heart), being under the blood (for they were all washed with lamb’s blood at the Exodus) or whatever churchified terminology may be used that has nothing to do with the actual language of the Bible.

Robert Borders who have studied demonology perhaps to the same depth as myself in the past 30 years have also shown supporting evidence from practice to much of the above. Many in this group who actually practice deliverance from demons in their ministry would also agree. But with all this and much more being discussed thus far, how exactly do you feel that my view on demonology and deliverance in the church differs from yours theologically?

Troy Day Troy Day says:

What spirit would possess a person to drink strong wine and then speak in tongues?

Lennie Marx Lennie Marx says:

Troy, Read Acts 8 to help answer the question you are presenting! Any other questions!

Dan Irving Dan Irving says:

If one reads the prophets, they will be impressed how they speak of all tenses of salvation and deliverance for Zion; past, present, future, continuous, etc. This seems to defy hard and fast rules. We come into the knowledge of God via deliverance from ours/his enemies. These are spiritual, and not flesh. But there does appear a danger in a doctrinal position that “Satan can never do (ect. ect), where God’s word does not expressly say he can never do etc., etc.

Charles Page Charles Page says:

Seems that a covenant child of God could be demonized upto the return of Christ in 70 AD

Troy Day Troy Day says:

What spirit would possess a person to drink strong wine and then speak in tongues?

See, there you go deflecting.
You chose judas.
Handle him.

Your daughter of Abraham was a sickness, go read it.
It was not to the extent of ((possession)) as to behave in a mannerism contrary to her normal personality.

Troy Day Troy Day says:

Good point, except you did not answer my question while freely talking about your possession – a term not found in the New Testament. The Bible uses the terms demonized and bound. So again – Was this woman saved by covenant with God and still bound by Satan?

I did not have a “your possession”.
I was never possessed.
Was this woman s(h)aved by covenant with God and still bound by satan.
I don’t know if she was shaved or not.
I do know that you must come through Jesus to receive salvation, so was she s()aved and bound by satan?
You mean not having a devil that effected her personality, but simply her body with a sickness vs12 – 769 feebleness of the mind or body, malady. Frailty, disease, infirmity, sickness, weakness. [Oppression. That word is biblical Acts,10:38].

I answered your (demonized)
They were said to have spirits or devils (definition interchanges devils, supernatural spirits, demons) 1139 – from 1142.
Also 1140 diety, devil – god.
(See screenshot)
**Exercised by a devil – meaning control by.
There is the difference made between possession and oppression.
You see, You have not addressed Acts 10:38 oppressed, 2616 – to exercise dominion against – not inside of, but over against.
If you can’t work that into your theology, and you have refused to even up til now, your theology is incomplete and incorrect.

You present your discussion as if you believe ALL devils are the same.
Not all spirits can invade/enter people.
Not all people can be entered/invaded.
Classes of spirits in the devil’s kingdom;
Ephesians 6:12-13 For we *wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against
*principalities, against
*powers, against
*the rulers of the darkness of this world, against
*spiritual wickedness in high places. Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that
*ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Next verse starts *STAND THEREFORE*.

Do yourself a favor and research the six places that the New Testament mentions principalities and powers together.
In the reference above we *wrestle against them*
We don’t lay down for them, we don’t just allow them, we don’t get controled by them at their will.
The referenced verses continues to say, *they we maybe able to *withstand* in the evil day, having done all to STAND, STAND therefore.
Does not sound like believers just roll over according to your thoughts and allow the devils inside.
That is what has to happen before a (fallen believer) could even possibly allow an evil spirit inside to where they are controlled – are out of their own control.
I am finished debating with you the twisted thought that possesses your mind that a believer can be possessed/controlled at the will of satan without us being able to do anything to stop him.
I wonder how long before your church members see their pastor controlled by a devil against his will manifesting in the church during service.
According to you it can and foes happen and you will be powerless to prevent it from happening. (Again this is your thoughts, beliefs, and thinking).

You act as though everyone must answer you yet you will not answer what is presented to you.
So are your members possessed?
Have you never read and examined Acts 10:38?

I have another series of questions for you on a reply just after this one.

Troy Day
Have you ever personally had to help one controlled by a devil get freedom?

No, don’t answer yet.
You see I mean under the influence of satan as the lunatic boy that the devil would tear him, throw him to the ground, into the water, and into the fire.

No, don’t answer yet,,,
I mean the two in the tombs that could not live among mankind due to their fierce violence.

No, not yet
I mean legion that was unable to be bound in chains, fetters, etc and was still uncontrollable.
(He was in such bad shape special note was made to when he was delivered he was CLOTHED).

And yet, the devil could not even leave the person and go to swine without permission from Jesus.
(Are we not now His Spirit filled agents operating as His ambassadors with His commission, power, and authority?
And you think satan and his devils can just have their way with us – believers.

You can look up those scriptures.

Now as far as me personally,
I have seen and handled,
(You know of the gentleman at my house and the dog had to be put down).

I have seen lights leave the body of people, go into walls, and laugh at the believer’s who aided their deliverance.

Green goo thrown up laying in the floor laughing and talking.

Black goo thrown up laying in the floor shaking talking.

Small bodied people trying to be restrained by multiple men 250# to over 300# and the gentlemen trying to restrain them getting thrown around as if they were lite weight pillows.

Voices non-human, and other things I will not even discuss here.

So have you Troy encountered devils that this kind cometh out but by prayer (and fasting) Matt 17:21 and Mark 9:29.

Until then, you can’t even begin to understand what I am saying, nor my understanding in this manner of spiritual activity.

The sad thing is
You think you have it all figured out and will have nothing to do with what God’s deliverance through Jesus is actually about.

My brother, until you can grasp that or are willing to listen.
I am done casting my pearl before swine.

Troy Day Troy Day says:

David Lewayne Porter Luke 13:16 ► Then should not this woman, a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan has kept bound for eighteen long years, be set free on the Sabbath day from what bound her?” – Was she saved by covenant with God and still bound by Satan?

Any body that is faking their relationship with God declaring themselves to be Christ like, when they are not born again, but trying to shack with God, God doesn’t shack up with nobody, Those folks can be possessed with demons, and devils, True born again children of God cannot be possessed with demons devils, The Bible (KJV) says we are sealed with the Holy Ghost until the end. demons and devils cannot cross the blood line of Jesus Christ. we that are born again are sealed with the promises of God.

Exactly, thank you my brother.

Troy Day Troy Day says:

Sounds like OSAS – once sealed always sealed. What about Judas the apostle – was Judas not sealed?

Jesus Christ said he never lost anyone Except Judas, that the gospel might be full filled as far as OSAS, you ask me a question, now let me ask you a question? Can you be born again from your mother? course not, nether can you be born again the second time, spiritually, and if God says you are sealed, you are sealed. you have any other questions about that ask God, or read your Bible.

Troy Day Troy Day says:

Harold E. Klump As long as we agree that Judas was saved, elect apostle of Jesus Christ who was afterwords possessed by the devil… I rest my case

Troy Day you can’t rest your case.
Was Judas a true believer/follower of Christ when (at the very point in time) that he betrayed the son of God into the hands of wicked men?

Your argument on him being possessed as a believer/Christian fails until you come to grip with that.

Are you a (OSAS)?
If so you make Jesus in John 17 a liar when he spoke of Judas being lost. That means you must not be what you say you are (a follower of christ).
Romans 3:3-4
For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? God forbid: yea,
*let God be true, but every man a liar;*
as it is written,
That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

Troy Day
Are you just not reading what I post.
Or do you truly not understand (demonology)?

Maybe you did not understand the rules of the game.
I said “A Believer at the time of being a believer, was taken by satan at his will against their own will and then them made to act contrary to Christian behavior”.

You answered

Let me yet again give you this one;
JESUS your Saviour,
the one you are following that you are called a Christian after said concerning Judas;
John 17:12
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
Jesus said that Judas IS “LOST”.
(Judas was called by Jesus The son of perdition).
What does that mean exactly?
Well the son of perdition in another scripture is given these qualities;
2 Thessalonians 2:3-4
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Man of sin, (opposeth God). Wow.
Sounds like what Jesus said to another group here;
John 8:41-44
Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Now the question would be when Judas did the deeds he did and why;
Mark 14:10-11
And Judas Iscariot, one of the twelve, went unto the chief priests, to betray him unto them. And when they heard it, they were glad, and promised to give him money. And he sought how he might conveniently betray him.
(Judas, not a spirit, devil, demon within him).
Matthew 26:14-16
Then one of the twelve, called Judas Iscariot, went unto the chief priests, And said unto them, What will ye give me, and I will deliver him unto you? And they covenanted with him for thirty pieces of silver. And from that time he sought opportunity to betray him.

Here is a thought,
Jesus addresses him as Judas and as a friend (not as He did Peter with – get thee behind me satan –
Matthew 26:47-50
And while he yet spake, lo, Judas, one of the twelve, came, and with him a great multitude with swords and staves, from the chief priests and elders of the people. Now he that betrayed him gave them a sign, saying, Whomsoever I shall kiss, that same is he: hold him fast. And forthwith he came to Jesus, and said, Hail, master; and kissed him.
And Jesus said unto him,
Friend, wherefore art thou come? Then came they, and laid hands on Jesus, and took him.

Now Luke says satan entered into him before he sought money to betray Jesus;
Luke 22:3-6
Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve. And he went his way, and communed with the chief priests and captains, how he might betray him unto them. And they were glad, and covenanted to give him money. And he promised, and sought opportunity to betray him unto them in the absence of the multitude.
1519 – into the intent of the mind.

But then we are told that satan entered into Judas (his heart – temptation) after the supper;
John 13:2 And supper being ended, the devil having now put
*into the heart* of Judas Iscariot, Simon’s son, to betray him;

We were told by Jesus way before we even discuss Judas and if he was a true believer that 12 were chosen and one IS A DEVIL; John 6:70-71 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

So you are going to have to pick someone other than Judas to try and prove your point.

Try Ananias and Sapphira
Simon the sorcerer.
They would give us great discussions.

Troy Day Troy Day says:

David Lewayne Porter Judas?

Troy Day
Define church member…
You mean calling themselves a church member?
You mean calling themselves christians?
Or do you mean living the Christian life according to biblical definition and guidelines?

Some were from “religious” back grounds.
Some had attended churches.
Some had their names on church rolls.
Some were ex-attenders
Some were ex-members
Some were currently attending.
Some were currently “members” in name only.

Some were handled in the church, some were handled in the parsonage, some were handled outside in the yard, some in their homes.

Some during church services.
Yes in the church during the preaching and altar services.

So they are never the same, never.

By the way a blind survey and study by (I believe Barna Group) says according to straight biblical based theology only 80% of those sitting in the church are saved – according to their beliefs and life styles. Yet those 80% claim to be believing – heaven ready Christians.

So please define what you mean by church member.

Charles Page Charles Page says:

Personally I don’t know what Troy believes 😉

Troy Day Troy Day says:

Were they members of your church congratulation? If they were, you well know people attending your church and are saved can have a demon. Except of course if you have people in your membership that are not saved, but thats a question for a different discussion and probably breaks a few membership requirements

Troy Day
These were not members of MY church.

Does having your name on a church roll make you a christian?

Does attending a church make you a christian?

Where you there?

You asked the other day what was the difference between possession and oppression.
And you want to tell me what happened in situations where you were not even there.

Just think about that for a few moments.
Brother, You have some issues.
So are you
Having another one of those non-biblical terminology conversations from a viewpoint and standing of not having been there?

Your church members may very well have demons – I am sorry devils (to be biblically accurate).
My truly saved attending members who are Christians because they have accepted forgiveness of sins and deliverance
Can’t be possessed.

Charles Page Charles Page says:

At Antioch they were church members and were call Christians

Ty Charles Page.
Why were they called Christians. (Notice, not a ?)

Charles Page Charles Page says:

They were identified with the body of believing followers of Christ. There was a recording of names on scrolls for posterity’s sake.

Troy Day Troy Day says:

Well David Lewayne Porter there are certain requirements for church membership and one of them is salvation right?

Troy Day
So all of your church members are truly saved by biblical standards?
More than just a name on a roll?

That tells me that
1) you believe everyone on you roll tells the truth all of the time
2) you can decern all spirits effecting your church members, especially their individual spirits.

So Troy, is that what you are saying?
Does having your name on a roll save you?
Does attending church save you?

All of those on my church roll when I got there were received into membership under previous pastors (trust me, the ones on the roll WERE NOT all Christians).

I have actually not allowed some people to join the church while I have been there due to their life styles and other habits.

So Troy
Yet again
Stop dancing around it,
Straight up Bible without non – biblical theology.
Trying to justify with arguments and situations which are not biblical.

Show me in the Bible where a believer – at the time of being a believer, was ever taken by satan at his will against their own will and then them made to act contrary to Christian behavior (ungodly, wicked, evil).
That is what being possessed by a devil is.

Charles Page Charles Page says:

Satan is alive however not on the earth and certainly not doing well.

1 Peter 5:8
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

I know that He is the prince and power of the air, but does he walk through the air?

I believe that 80% is just too high a percentage of “ready” Christians. Even pastors and not just “laymen” have to be accounted for in the overall percentage because there are a many that struggle like the rest. Or there are those that just hold the office and title yet are far from walking with God. And who would admit that to a survey?

It was a blind survey mailed out to church distributed to the congregation, filled out, returned without any information except the answer to the questions.

They are who woould.

There was also a survey taken of preachers in 2010 within the same guidelines in which the pastors,you referred to admitted at a percentage of 70% to viewing pornography at least 3 times a week.

Here is a more startling thought;
You asked,
“Who would admit thst to a survey?”.
So them if they agreed to answer the survey and did not admit it then they make themselves liars.
What does revelations say about that?
Says they disqualify themselves and are become unusable
Revelation of John 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

That bothers me as much as the 80% and the 70% pastors viewing pornography.

By the way,
One of the questions for the survey of 80% not truly saved believing that they are was,
“Is it ever ok to lie/be deceitful”.
You know those – as some people say (white lies).

Troy Day Troy Day says:

David Lewayne Porter For the sake of this (I bevel helpful) conversation, were the people you delivered from demon(s) among church members ?

Troy Day

I do not have time for this.
I am not too sure of the “source”.

My personal opinion.

Still believe? I was not aware that Pentecostals ever believed such a thing.

People possessed yes, not believers.

Troy Day Troy Day says:

or backsliden believers right?

Backsliden who used to be believers,

Troy Day Troy Day says:

Many churches are full with those Robert Borders

Rijo Koshy Rijo Koshy says:

Jesus is coming soon

Oppressed and attacked yes, but not possessed. I have the Holy Ghost, but for the past 3 years I have been really struggling with God. What I have learned from this experience of, having the Holy Ghost yet being distant from God, is that the demons will attack and oppress mentally while im awake and also tangibly oppressing, outside of my body of course, while I am sleeping and in my dreams. No physical pain, just a tangible presence around me when I’m near awake.
I notice that when I draw close to God by praying, or even just by reading the Bible, God’s in filling causes the “shadows” or demonic entities, their presence, to actually scatter and flee.

Never thought about that with Cornelius. But you’re right they were fasting and praying. There is something wonderful that takes place when a man that was dead in sin comes alive to God in Jesus Christ. There is very real seperation from sin. And set aside. Is it unreasonable to think the glories of this takes thought and time. Best described as Romans 12:1&2

Terry Wiles Terry Wiles says:

There’s “a rat” in separation. 🙂

Troy Day Troy Day says:

We may need to rethink the sanctification of the Roman centurion Cornelius may need to be And may be just may be as I suggested to Dan Irving we may have been looking at the wrong majority?

Troy Day Troy Day says:

Terry Wiles Its Wesley’s argument not Cog and we as AG have a hard time to understand it. Nevertheless, all of the people in Acts had a time of prayer and sanctification prior to receiving the Holy Spirit. Just think about it… Acts 2 (10 days), Cornelius (4 days), the Ephesians (since Johns baptism) and so on…

Terry Wiles Terry Wiles says:

Doesn’t fit the definition of sanctification.

Terry Wiles Terry Wiles says:

Still is strange that no one inside can explain it. Don’t blame Wesley. They made it their distinctive doctrine if I’m not mistaken.

Troy Day Troy Day says:

How does it not fit? Acts they prayed for 10 days. Cornelius prayed and fasted for 4 days, etc.

Terry Wiles Terry Wiles says:

So to be sanctified you need to fast and pray. Then what happens and how does anyone know it happens as a defining work of grace.

Troy Day Troy Day says:

Live without sin?

Terry Wiles Terry Wiles says:

That’s subjective, like saying 7 people got healed of back pain. How do others know you are sanctified?

Would the example of the the children of Israel and the Passover be a legitimate example. The were saved from death and judgment by the blood of the Lamb, but they still had to get up and walk out of Egypt. Is that a valid example?

Troy Day Troy Day says:

Wilmer L. Kerns A church goer at least or not?

In my review of works by George Barna and many others, it is estimated that less than 10% of American churchgoers would meet criteria for being born again.

Troy Day Troy Day says:

I’ve read that only 5-10% of Catholics are truly devoted

Charles Page Charles Page says:

I know that would be true of COG bishops – less than 10% are truly born again!

Troy Day Troy Day says:

AG would be only 10% of the person sanctified the other 90% of the person progressing toward sanctification

Charles Page Charles Page says:

I don’t believe you can be sanctified progressively. It is entire and instantaneous if you are truly sanctified.

Terry Wiles Terry Wiles says:

I’ve tried to understand the arguments of COG Concerning sanctification. The best I can make is they are talking about salvation. Using Charles Page argument even the apostle Paul wouldn’t be sanctified.

For it to be their defining doctrine one would think some contemporary could explain it rather than refer to some writing that simply talks around the issue.

Or maybe they don’t want anyone to know? :).

Charles Page Charles Page says:

Terry, what Paul and I believe is different from your interpretation of what you assume I believe

Terry Wiles Terry Wiles says:

Charles Page still waiting for a clear explanation of sanctification according to the COG.

Charles Page Charles Page says:

Give me your clear explanation

Terry Wiles Terry Wiles says:

You are the COG insider. I am trying to research their defining doctrine but nobody will answer.

Charles Page Charles Page says:

Terry Wiles they don’t know either

It is a second work of grace after one has been born again.
The born again exercise faith in the blood of Christ, they believe on the word of God and they cooperate with the Holy Ghost. When those three things have been done by one already born again he will attain the holiness that is God’s standard of living for us.

Did you do those things (in truth and honesty)? Then you have been sanctified. That is clear COG teaching!

Terry Wiles Terry Wiles says:

Charles Page so what is evidence? Are you saying the teaching is that those who are sanctified do not sin?

Charles Page Charles Page says:

Terry Wiles the COG does not teach that they don’t sin and they teach that the tongues are the initial evidence of the baptism with the Holy Ghost.

There are COG preachers who teach that the sanctified don’t sin however it is not a teaching of the church.

Terry Wiles Terry Wiles says:

So what does sanctification bring if they do not sin?

Charles Page Charles Page says:

If demons were here with us I would keep them on their toes and very busy

Troy Day Troy Day says:

and you probably do 🙂

Troy Day Troy Day says:

Wilmer L. Kerns Were these Christian people or unbelievers? Terry Wiles Would you say deliberate passive aggressiveness and conniving church politics are two of these western cases of demonization?

It is difficult to judge. The first one was not a Christian. I did not know him personally, but was part of a prayer team that was called to his house by his wife. The last one was a person who had been baptized and had followed the Lord, but fell into sin. None were Christians who were walking in the light at that time. I think I see why you raised the question. Recently, I have read about the possibility of demons taking over a professing Christian’s life. I have always opposed this kind of thinking, but in recent years I have second thoughts.One example was a person who was overcome by lust and pornography; yet they were professing Christians, even ministers. It could be very subtle, and not the violent kinds I dealt with and described above.

Troy Day Troy Day says:

as we’ve discussed the possibility with David Lewayne Porter

I like and do appreciate that you pointed out they were “professing (c)hristians”.
Lust and pornography,
This,is,what the Bible says about lust,
It is the individual, not just a spirit;
James 1:14-16
But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. Do not err, my beloved brethren.

So can a true believing Christian be controlled to habitually sin..
Not according to Scripture.
Scripture overrides our experiences.

Terry Wiles Terry Wiles says:

No. even the devil wouldn’t stoop that low. That is carnal at its best.

David Lewayne Porter You are not saying that sin is just a matter of human nature or the carnal mind, without the influence of satan’s angels (demons) are you? To be tempted, there has to be a tempter. It is also possible to be deceived, but others discern it. This hasn’t happened to me, thank the Lord, but I have seen it happen to others. i wouldn’t call it possession, but it is not a spirit filled life, even though the person professes and may be in a ministry.

I will agree with everything you said after your (?-mark).
As far as the question,
Satan and his devils can lay the bait (temptation) before a person, but the sinful carnal nature of man determines what each person is willing to fall for and accept (lust). (See verses in previous reply).

I am glad you stated that you would not call it possession (because it is not). It is normally just dealing with temptation and the battle of a sanctified and overcoming life. It is at worst oppression, but not possession unless they are out of control during those times, not weak or yielding, but out of their own control.

I am also very glad that you stated it was not a Spirit filled life, even though the person professes and may (even) be in a ministry.

It sounds like we agree my brother, and almost perfectly.

Troy Day
I think the demons/devils are staying hidden and are more sly until they feel threatened.

I believe that the more pressing question would be,
“When is the last time a devil was threatened by our presence”?
The presence of the Holy Spirit/God within us?

Dr. John White (now deceased) was a Canadian psychiatrist and later a preacher and prolific author who often had people begin to manifest with demons when he stepped up to preach. Smith Wigglesworth saw this happen in every day life. I have seen a few people begin to manifest in church services and in psychiatric hospital settings but not on a regular basis.

Troy Day Troy Day says:

Thanks for the mention David Lewayne Porter

The only thing that threatens devil’s is the word of God in the bosom of a sanctified heart and preached with authority in Jesus name! Your presence not so much.

You have to go where the people are.

Troy Day Troy Day says:

Mt. 3:5 All people came to where John the Baptist was

Street Preacherz
Maybe you stopped reading my post one sentence too soon.
You need to finish it.
If The Word was enough
Why did Jesus tell His disciples to wait and tarry until endued with power from on high?..

You’re right. I didn’t see it. However for me the preaching of God’s Word exposes the works of darkness. “These three agree in heaven.” I don’t see much an anointing for deliverance apart from the preaching of God’s word! Sorry this has to be short. But the scripture cleary says and the Lord worked with them confirming the word with signs following. I may have taken offense at the statements of the presence of men. Men are nothing. The born again spirit of men submitted to God and walking in agreement with Christ and doing his will is another matter. Sorry.. Please forgive me. Some people and their presence is nothing but self importance, vanity and empty promises. Again sorry.

Yes sorry. Deleted. Thank you for your patience.

I’m not John Baptist. LOL

Amen. Reading the word with intent and praying with intent throughout the day everyday will cause them to manifest in non believers. Many a homeless people are possessed. Once I encountered a homeless man who had more than one devil in him as he was speaking in the plural “us.” He was in his late 50’s to early 60’s asking for money. Thank God He was walking with a walker. I wonder if he wasn’t on a walker that he would try to aggressively approach me because he was extremely infuriated( teeth clenching angry reddish eyes) with me when I started praying to God in Jesus name in front of him.

Many truly homeless people are either addicted to drugs and, or, are “mentally” I’ll. It seems they cannot escape whatever it is that is causing them mental anguish. I’ll bet a hundred doves with a temple priest that it has to do with their past experiences.
Their past experiences in either, or a combo of witchcraft, drugs, promiscuity, prostitution, abuse, regrets, etc. All gateways for a devilish entrance into a person’s lives. They’re like a bunch of Mary Magdalenes before her deliverance.

You guys kow what is the “scary” part about discerning a devil/demon possessed person is? It’s when they know you have the Spirit of God in you. I started noticing a strange repeating occurrence with possessed people. One example is prostitutes. After receiving the Holy Ghost, I started noticing( really it’s God revealing to me) the many possessed woman. How? I noticed that every time I was driving past on the road and them on the sidewalk, yet still a ways behind them, that they turn around to stare me straight in the eyes while I’m still 100 ft behind them with cars before and behind me. Yet they stare straight at me. Happens every time and never fails. Doesn’t happen to the car in front or the back, its just to me. Very strange experiences. This was all after the Holy Ghost. I questioned God and asked what in the world under heaven is going on? He didn’t answer me, but I’m slowly learning. Long story short…yes I believe believers(should be “walkers” with God) do experience, and, can discern open manifestations if they accept the reality and pay more attention, not to the demons, but to God, and the devils will show themselves because now they all know you know that they know you know they know.
And when they know that you are slipping, they will take every single opportunity to mess with you. Little things that they never considered bothering you over, now they take advantage of that license to mess with you, sigh, but then again I guess that’s how we grow and learn right? If we don’t trip sometimes we can’t become stronger I suppose. It’s like our sore legs needs some stretching to become stronger and more flexible.
Just thought Id share my thoughts and experiences with the group.

Let’s be Believers not Beliebers. Whatever happened in the bible 2000 yrs ago can happen today. Baptism of the Holy Ghost, miracles, angels and angels disguised as people, demonic oppression and possession not all are mental disorders. some are, not all. The bible is a package deal.

Troy Day
If people can’t still be demon possessed then most of what Jesus came for and commissioned us to do is null and void.

Isaiah 61:1-3
The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the Lord, that he might be glorified.

Jesus himself pointed out that it was more than just salvation
Luke 4:18-27
The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him. And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears. And all bare him witness, and wondered at the gracious words which proceeded out of his mouth. And they said, Is not this Joseph’s son? And he said unto them, Ye will surely say unto me this proverb, Physician, heal thyself: whatsoever we have heard done in Capernaum, do also here in thy country. And he said, Verily I say unto you, No prophet is accepted in his own country. But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when great famine was throughout all the land; But unto none of them was Elias sent, save unto Sarepta, a city of Sidon, unto a woman that was a widow. And many lepers were in Israel in the time of Eliseus the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, saving Naaman the Syrian.

Remember His final earthly charge to His true followers.

The last time I prayed for a man and deliverance was man struggling to be free from heroin addiction. He is saved and free and serving God. This was last month. God honors prayers in Jesus name!

Troy Day Troy Day says:

Do PENTECOSTALS still believe that one can be demon possessed?

1. When was the last time you cast out a demon?

2. When was the last time you witness a demon being cast out?

I personally have been involved on 3 occasions in the last 15 years.

I witnessed others being delivered on two occasions (I’m 84), and I experienced it alone four years ago, when confronted by demons, with no choice. One of the demons identified himself and used the persons mouthpiece to utter threats and accusations. I heard for myself a satanic scream that Catholic priests have described. It was directed toward me in a voice that was beyond the range of the possessed. Anyone who has ever heard this will never mistake it for something psychological. I felt a mixture of fear and boldness quoting the Word of God and praying for two days before the person was released. I am a layman. Yes, I have read Derek Prince and others. I try to say as far away as possible from such encounters.

Terry Wiles Terry Wiles says:

I think it is necessary to let God rise up and His enemies will be scattered.

Troy Day Troy Day says:

And how about in West Salem?

Sorry I don’t get it. West Salem?

Terry Wiles Terry Wiles says:

In the West Satan most often possesses the mind. In the Eastern world and in non developed countries body possession is more prominent.

This is changing as East comes West. One evidence is the rise of exorcisms among Romanists as is being reported in the news.

Intellectual possession is harder to recognize and arrogant. It is often manifested by cutting, piercing, anger, etc., along with many other body manifestations sexually, socially, and spiritually which are common our society.

However, the Western church is not open to making connections with such. Many are openly hostile to connecting with hardened sinners and instead flourish in patronizing the saint who has little tolerance for “Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done.”

Paul’s comments about our effective weapons tearing down strongholds is referring to this type of mental oppression and/or possession.

Our society recognizes these type possessions as “disorders” which can be medically suppressed or cured. This adds to the problem.

Because of this lack of recognition our children are educated in a godless society and indoctrinated in the ways of the devil.

A current example of this is the new Disney children’s movie “Luana” which portrays the mental attitude that rejects The Creator God.

One biblical solution would be to deliberately and systematically preach the Word. Another would be for Gods people to repent, pray, and seek Gods face instead of Gods hands.

And still another would be for us to “train up” our children in the way they should go.

Do think it is necessary to rebuke carnal/demonic reactions while preaching?

I on part way through Wesley’s work on the subject of entire sanctification. He is explaining / defending his process over the years in coming to Christian perfection. He hasn’t mention get the devil “off” yet.

Troy Day Troy Day says:

On holiness Charles Page Isnt entire sanctification namely dealing with the demons in your life once you get saved and regenerated?

I don’t think it is possible to practice or teach holiness with out teaching how to fight temptation and the authority of Jesus name.

I took a seminary class in Spiritual Warfare in Indiana back in 1990 and I was the only Pentecostal in the class. The only persons I knew that would schedule appointments for persons wanting deliverance were a Baptist minister and a Mennonite layman. In more recent years a rural Catholic parish in Indiana had a two-year waiting list for people that had appointments for deliverance ministry. Traditional Pentecostal churches are still the last place that I would refer people to in Indiana if they wanted or needed deliverance ministry do to poor theology and practice.

Troy Day Troy Day says:

Many times. Win Worley too. And many others… Robert Borders

Right. Have you read Derk Prince? “They shall expel demons”

Troy Day Troy Day says:

Gr. word is demonized

Isn’t it one of those translation things? Possessed, owned, controlled, inhabited?

Troy Day Troy Day says:

I am starting to wonder that myself sometimes Robert Borders David Lewayne Porter