In 1 John 4:2b, what does John mean by ἐν σαρκὶ ἐληλυθότα? “In flesh [and blood]” or “among humans/men”? And why is this such an important issue?
Please provide primary source(s) for any historical references.
By the way, my own view is that “John” wrote his letter to correct various misrepresentations of Jesus, such as saying that he was divine or an angel (the message of the antichrists) which he considered idolatry.
σάρξ, σαρκός, ἡ (Hom.+; ‘flesh’). ① the material that covers the bones
of a human or animal body, flesh lit. 1 Cor 15:39abcd; Hv 3, 10, 4; 3,
12, 1. The pl. (which denotes flesh in the mass [Lucian, Dial. Mort.
10, 5], whereas the sing. rather denotes the substance.—Herodas 4, 61;
Gen 40:19; 1 Km 17:44; 4 Km 9:36; PsSol 4:19; TestJob 13:5; Philo;
Jos., Ant. 12, 211; Just., A I, 26, 7; Mel., P. 52, 383; Ath. 34, 2)
Lk 24:39 v.l.; Rv 19:18, 21 (4 [6] Esdr [POxy 1010, 16] cannibalism
out of hunger, sim. Mel., P. 52, 383; Quint. Smyrn. 11, 245: the
σάρκες of the slain are food for the birds) B 10:4; metaph. Rv 17:16.
It decays 1 Cl 25:3; cp. Ac 2:31 (cp. 2a below). Normally gives forth
an evil odor when burned MPol 15:2. W. bones (s. ὀστέον) 1 Cl 6:3 (Gen
2:23); Lk 24:39; Eph 5:30 v.l. (metaph.). Paul speaks of his illness
as a σκόλοψ τῇ σαρκί (s. σκόλοψ) 2 Cor 12:7. ἡ ἐν σαρκὶ περιτομή the
physical circumcision (cp. Just., D. 10, 1 al.) Ro 2:28; cp. Eph
2:11b; Col 2:13 (ἀκροβυστία 2); Gal 6:13 (ἡ σάρξ=the flesh that is
circumcised); B 9:4. Metaph.: the corrosion on the precious metals of
the rich φάγεται τὰς σάρκας ὑμῶν ὡς πῦρ Js 5:3.—Ign. describes the
elements of the Eucharist as σὰρξ (or αἷμα) Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ IRo 7:3;
IPhld 4; ISm 7:1. Also J 6:51–56 urges that one must eat the flesh
(and drink the blood) of the Human One or Son of Man (Just., A I, 66,
2; s. TPhilips, Die Verheissung der hl. Eucharistie nach Joh. 1922;
Bultmann ad loc.; AWikenhauser ’48, 105f).—His anti-Docetic position
also leads Ign. to use the concept ‘flesh (and blood) of p 915
Christ’ in other contexts as well ITr 8:1; IPhld 5:1.—For Mt 16:17;
Gal 1:16; Eph 6:12; and 1 Cor 15:50 s. 3a. ② the physical body as
functioning entity, body, physical body ⓐ as substance and living
entity (Aeschyl., Sept. 622: opp. νοῦς; Ex 30:32; 4 Km 6:30; TestAbr A
20 p. 103, 6 [Stone p. 54] πάντα τὰ μέλη τῆς σαρκός μου; w. καρδία or
ψυχή Alex. Aphr., An. p. 98, 7–10 Br.; Ps 37:8; 62:2; Eccl 2:3; Ezk
11:19; 44:7 a1.; Jos., Bell. 6, 47, Ant. 19, 325; Ar.15, 7) οὔτε ἡ
σὰρξ αὐτοῦ εἶδεν διαφθοράν Ac 2:31 (but s. 1). W. ψυχή 1 Cl 49:6 (Tat.
13:2 al.). W. καρδία Ac 2:26 (Ps 15:9).—Eph 5:29. ἑόρακαν τὸ πρόσωπόν
μου ἐν σαρκί they have seen me face to face Col 2:1. ἕως ἂν τὸν
χριστὸν ἐν σαρκὶ ἴδῃ before he had seen the Messiah in person GJs 24:4
(cp. Lk 2:26). Opp. πνεῦμα (Ath. 31:3; PGM 5, 460 ἐπικαλοῦμαί σε τὸν
κτίσαντα πᾶσαν σάρκα κ. πᾶν πνεῦμα) 1 Cor 5:5; 2 Cor 7:1; Col 2:5; 1
Pt 4:6; Hm 3:1; 10, 2, 6; cp. AcPl Ant 13:17 (=Aa, I 237, 2; s. οἶδα);
also in relation to Christ (though this is disputed) J 6:63; Hs 5, 6,
5–7; cp. 1 Ti 3:16.—ἀσθένεια τῆς σαρκός bodily ailment Gal 4:13; s.
vs. 14. ἀσθενὴς τῇ σαρκί weak in the body Hs 9, 1, 2. ὁ ἀλγῶν σάρκα
the one who is ill in body B 8:6. πάσχειν σαρκί 1 Pt 4:1b. Cp. 2 Cor
7:5. ἡ τῆς σαρκὸς καθαρότης the purity of the body Hb 9:13 (opp.
καθαρίζειν τὴν συνείδησιν vs. 14). σαρκὸς ἀπόθεσις ῥύπου 1 Pt 3:21 (s.
ῥύπος 1). The σάρξ is raised fr. the dead (s. ParJer 6:9; Theoph. Ant.
1, 7 [74, 2]) 1 Cl 26:3; 2 Cl 9:1. ἀνάστασις σαρκός AcPlCor 1:12; 2:24
(σαρκὸς ἀνάστασιν Just., D. 80, 5); cp. ἀναστήσεσθε ἔχοντες ὑγιῆ τὴν
σάρκα AcPlCor 2:32. Of the body of Christ during his earthly ministry
Eph 2:14 (JHart, The Enmity in His Flesh: Exp. 6th ser., 3, 1901,
135–41); Hb 10:20; 1 Pt 3:18; 4:1a; 1J 4:2; 2J 7; B 5:1, 10f; 6:7, 9;
7:5; 12:10; IEph 7:2; Pol 7:1; AcPlCor 2:6b. Married couples form μία
σάρξ (Gen 2:24; s. Ath. 33, 2 τὴν σάρκα πρὸς σάρκα …
κοινωνίαν.—GAicher, Mann u. Weib ein Fleisch: BZ 5, 1907, 159–65) Mt
19:5f; Mk 10:8ab; 1 Cor 6:16; Eph 5:31 (on these passages, TBurkill,
ZNW 62, ’71, 115–20). δικαιώματα σαρκός behind ‘all sorts of
ceremonial washings’ there are regulations that concern the physical
body Hb 9:10.—On ὑποτάγητε τῷ ἐπισκόπῳ ὡς ὁ Χριστὸς τῷ πατρὶ κατὰ
σάρκα IMg 13:2 s. Hdb. ad loc. and MRackl, Die Christologie des hl.
Ignatius v. Ant. 1914, 228.—πνεῦμα δυνάμεως … ὁ θεὸς … κατέπεμψεν εἰς
σάρκα τουτέστιν εἰς τὴν Μαρίαν God sent a powerful spirit (prob. a
ref. to the kind of divine breath that brought the first human being
to life [Gen 2:7]) into flesh, that is, into Mary AcPl Ha 8, 26=BMM
recto 34; s. AcPlCor 1:14. ⓑ as someth. with physical limitations,
life here on earth (ApcEsdr 4:4 p. 28, 3 Tdf. σάρκα ἀνθρωπίνην φορῶ)
θλῖψιν τῇ σαρκὶ ἕξουσιν 1 Cor 7:28. Cp. 2 Cor 4:11; Col 1:24. Of
Christ τὸ σῶμα τῆς σαρκὸς αὐτοῦ his body with its physical limitations
Col 1:22; cp. 2:11 and s. cα below (cp. En 102:5 τὸ σῶμα τῆς σαρκὸς
ὑμῶν; 1QpHab 9:2; Orig., C. Cels. 6, 29, 25).—Of human life: ἀποδημεῖν
τῆς σαρκός MPol 2:2 (s. ἀποδημέω). ἐπιμένειν ἐν τῇ σαρκί Phil 1:24.
ζῆν ἐν σαρκί vs. 22; Gal 2:20. ἐν σ. περιπατεῖν 2 Cor 10:3a. ἐν σ.
τυγχάνειν Dg 5:8a. ὄντος ἔτι ἐν σ. σου AcPlCor 1:6. τὸν ἐπίλοιπον ἐν
σ. χρόνον 1 Pt 4:2. ἡ ἐπιδημία τῆς σαρκὸς ταύτης our sojourn in life
2 Cl 5:5. ἐν τῇ σαρκί in our earthly life 8:2. ⓒ as instrument of
various actions or expressions. α. In Paul’s thought esp., all parts
of the body constitute a totality known as σ. or flesh, which is
dominated by sin to such a degree that wherever flesh is, all forms of
sin are likew. present, and no good thing can live in the σάρξ Ro 7:18
(cp. Philo, Gig. 29 αἴτιον δὲ τῆς ἀνεπιστημοσύνης μέγιστον ἡ σὰρξ καὶ
ἡ πρὸς σάρκα οἰκείωσις; Sextus 317 ἀγαθὸν ἐν σαρκὶ μὴ ἐπιζήτει. The OT
lays no stress on a necessary relationship betw. flesh as a substance,
and sin. But for Epicurus the σάρξ is the bearer of sinful feelings
and desires as well as the means of sensual enjoyment: Ep. in Plut.,
Mor. 135c; 1087bf; 1089e; 1096c αἱ τῆς σαρκὸς ἐπιθυμίαι. Also Diog. L.
10, 145. Likew. Plut. himself: Mor. 101b ταῖς τῆς σαρκὸς ἡδοναῖς;
672e; 688d; 734a; Ps.-Plut., Mor. 107f σαρκὶ καὶ τοῖς πάθεσι ταύτης;
Maximus Tyr. 33, 7a. Cp. 4 Macc 7:18 τὰ τῆς σαρκὸς πάθη; Philo, Deus
Imm. 143 σαρκὸς ἡδονή, Gig. 29; TestJud 19:4; TestZeb 9:7; ApcMos 25
[p. 14, 2 Tdf.] εἰς τὴν ἁμαρτίαν τῆς σαρκός); Ro 6:19; 7:25 (opp.
νοῦς); 8:3a, 4–9 (cp. Persius 2, 63 scelerata pulpa, which
contaminates devotion to deity), 12f; Gal 5:13, 24; Col 2:23; Jd 23;
AcPlCor 2:11, 15; Dg 6:5 (opp. ψυχή, as Plut., Mor. 101b). Opp. τὸ
πνεῦμα Ro 8:4, 5, 6, 9, 13; Gal 3:3; 5:16, 17ab; 6:8ab; J 3:6; B 10:9.
τὸ μὲν πνεῦμα πρόθυμον, ἡ δὲ σὰρξ ἀσθενής (cp. Orig., C. Cels. 2, 25,
8) Mt 26:41; Mk 14:38; Pol 7:2. σὰρξ ἁμαρτίας sinful flesh Ro 8:3b.
ἐπιθυμία (τῆς) σαρκός (cp. Maximus Tyr. 20, 9f σαρκῶν … ἐπιθυμίας) Gal
5:16; 1J 2:16; B 10:9. Pl. Eph 2:3a, cp. b; 2 Pt 2:18; cp. Ro 13:14.
τὰ ἔργα τῆς σαρκός Gal 5:19 (s. Vögtle at πλεονεξία). τὰ θελήματα τῆς
σαρκός Eph 2:3b. ὁ νοῦς τῆς σαρκός Col 2:18. τὸ σῶμα τῆς σαρκός the
body of (sinful) flesh 2:11; cp. 1:22 and s. b above (cp. Sir 23:17
σῶμα σαρκὸς αὐτοῦ; En 102:5 τῷ σώματι τῆς σαρκὸς ὑμῶν). τὰ τῆς σαρκός
what pertains to (sinful) flesh Ro 8:5b. ἐν (τῇ) σαρκὶ εἶναι be in an
unregenerate (and sinful) state Ro 7:5; 8:8f. τὰ ἔθνη ἐν σαρκί Eph
2:11a. κατὰ σάρκα εἶναι Ro 8:5a; ζῆν vs. 12b; 13; Dg 5:8b; περιπατεῖν
Ro 8:4; 2 Cor 10:2; βουλεύεσθαι 1:17; στρατεύεσθαι 10:3b; cp. IRo 8:3
(opp. κατὰ γνώμην θεοῦ). β. source of the sexual urge. The σάρξ is the
source of the sexual urge, without any suggestion of sinfulness
connected w. it ἐκ θελήματος σαρκὸς ἐγεννήθησαν J 1:13. ⓓ as someth.
attractive 2 Pt 2:10 (a Hebraism, cp. Judg 2:12; 3 Km 11:10; Sir
46:10). S. also 3b. ③ one who is or becomes a physical being, living
being with flesh ⓐ of humans person, human being: πᾶσα σάρξ every
person, everyone (LXX; TestAbr B 7 p. 112, 3 [Stone p. 72]; GrBar
4:10; ApcEsdr 7:7; ApcMos 13 [p. 7, 1 Tdf.]; Mel., P. 55, 400: for
כָּל-בָּשָׂר; s. πᾶς 1aα) Lk 3:6 (Is 40:5); J 17:2; Ac 2:17 (Jo 3:1);
1 Pt 1:24 (Is 40:6); 1 Cl 59:3; 64; 2 Cl 7:6; 17:5 (the last two Is
66:24); AcPlCor 2:6a. οὐ πᾶσα σάρξ no person, nobody (En 14:21
end.—W-S. §26, 10a; B-D-F §275, 4; 302, 1; Rob. 752) Mt 24:22; Mk
13:20; Ro 3:20 (cp. Ps 142:2 πᾶς ζῶν); 1 Cor 1:29 (μή); Gal
2:16.—Though σ. in the foll. passages refers to body in its physical
aspect, it cannot be divorced from its conjunction with αἷμα, and the
unit σὰρξ καὶ αἷμα (cp. Sir 17:31; TestAbr B 13 p. 117, 26 [Stone p.
82]; Philo, Quis Div. Rer. Her. 57; Just., D. 135, 6) refers to a
human being in contrast to God and other transcendent beings Mt 16:17;
Gal 1:16; Eph 6:12 (here vice versa, αἷ. καὶ σ.). τὰ παιδία
κεκοινώνηκεν αἵματος καὶ σαρκός the children share mortal nature Hb
2:14, but with suggestion of its frailty, as indicated by the context
with its ref. to death. Because they are the opposites of the divine
nature σὰρξ καὶ αἷμα βασιλείαν θεοῦ κληρονομῆσαι οὐ δύναται 1 Cor
15:50 (JJeremias, NTS 2, ’56, 151–59). For Jd 7 s. b next. Cp. AcPl
Ant 13, 17 (=Aa I 237, 2) σαρκί personally (s. οἶδα 2). ⓑ of
transcendent entities ὁ λόγος σὰρξ ἐγένετο J 1:14 (RSeeberg, Festgabe
AvHarnack dargebracht 1921, 263–81.—Artem. 2, 35 p. 132, 27 ἐὰν
σάρκινοι οἱ θεοὶ φαίνωνται; Synes., Dio 6 p. 45b).—Of flesh other than
human: ὀπίσω σαρκὸς ἑτέρας after another kind of flesh (cp. Judg 2:12
ὀπίσω θεῶν ἑτέρων) i.e. of divine messengers who take on σ. when they
appear to humans (so Windisch et al.; difft. Frame et al. of same-sex
activity) Jd 7. p 916
…④ human/ancestral connection, human/mortal nature, earthly
descent (Did., Gen. 144, 25) Ἀβραὰμ τὸν προπάτορα ἡμῶν κατὰ σάρκα Ro
4:1 (Just., D. 43, 7 al.). οἱ συγγενεῖς μου κατὰ σάρκα 9:3. τοὺς τῆς
σαρκὸς ἡμῶν πατέρας Hb 12:9. τὸν Ἰσραὴλ κατὰ σάρκα the earthly Israel
1 Cor 10:18 (opp. τὸν Ἰσραὴλ τοῦ θεοῦ Gal 6:16). Of natural descent
τὰ τέκνα τῆς σαρκός children by natural descent Ro 9:8 (opp. τὰ τέκνα
τῆς ἐπαγγελίας). ὁ μὲν ἐκ τῆς παιδίσκης κατὰ σάρκα γεγέννηται Gal
4:23; cp. vs. 29. μου τὴν σάρκα my compatriots Ro 11:14 (s. Gen
37:27).—Of Christ’s physical nature Ro 8:3c; Hb 5:7. Christ is
descended fr. the patriarchs and fr. David (τὸ) κατὰ σάρκα according
to the human side of his nature, as far as his physical descent is
concerned Ro 1:3 (JDunn, Jesus: Flesh and Spirit [Ro 1:3f], JTS 24,
’73, 40–68); 9:5; 1 Cl 32:2; IEph 20:2. The context of 2 Cor 11:18
includes ancestry as a reason for boasting, but σ. in this pass.
applies as well to other aspects of Paul’s career and therefore
belongs more properly in 5…
⑤ the outward side of life as determined by normal perspectives or
standards, a transf. sense of 1 and 2. Usually w. κατά indicating norm
or standard σοφοὶ κατὰ σάρκα wise (people) according to human
standards 1 Cor 1:26. καυχᾶσθαι κατὰ (τὴν) σάρκα boast of one’s
outward circumstances, i.e. descent, manner of life, etc. (cp. 11:22)
2 Cor 11:18. κατὰ σάρκα Χριστόν Christ (the Messiah) from a human
point of view or as far as externals are concerned 5:16b, cp. a (κατά
B5bβ and 7a; also VWeber, BZ 2, 1904, 178–88; HWindisch, exc. ad loc.;
Rtzst., Mysterienrel.3, 374–76; FPorter, Does Paul Claim to Have Known
the Historical Jesus [2 Cor 5:16]?: JBL 47, 1928, 257–75; RMoxon, CQR
108, 1929, 320–28). οἱ κατὰ σάρκα κύριοι those who, according to human
standards, are masters Eph 6:5; Col 3:22. ὑμεῖς κατὰ τὴν σ. κρίνετε
you judge by outward things, by externals J 8:15. Of the route taken
in one’s earthly life ἡ ὁδὸς ἡ κατὰ σάρκα IRo 9:3.—ἐν σαρκὶ πεποιθέναι
place one’s trust in earthly things or physical advantages Phil 3:3f.
εὐπροσωπῆσαι ἐν σαρκί Gal 6:12. Onesimus is a beloved brother to
Philemon καὶ ἐν σαρκὶ καὶ ἐν κυρίῳ both as a human being (=personally,
in the external relationship betw. master and slave) and as a
Christian Phlm 16. ὑμῶν δὲ ἐν σαρκὶ ἐπισκόπῳ IEph 1:3 (cp. IMg
3:2).—HWindisch, Taufe u. Sünde 1908; EBurton, ICC Gal. 1920, 492–95;
WSchauf, Sarx 1924; WBieder, Auferstehung des Fleisches od. des
Leibes?: TZ 1, ’45, 105–20. W. special ref. to Paul: Ltzm., Hdb. exc.
on Ro 7:14 and 8:11; Lohmeyer (ἁμαρτία 3a); EKäsemann, Leib u. Leib
Christi ’33; RGrant, ATR 22, ’40, 199–203; RBultmann, Theologie des
NTs ’48, 228–49 (Engl. tr. by KGrobel, ’51 I, 227–59); LMarshall,
Challenge of NT Ethics ’47, 267–70; E Schweizer, Die hellenist.
Komponente im NT sarx-Begriff: ZNW 48, ’57, 237–53; two in KStendahl,
The Scrolls and the NT, ’57: KKuhn, 94–113 and WDavies, 157–82;
JPryke, ‘Spirit’ and ‘Flesh’ in Qumran and NT: RevQ 5, ’65, 346–60;
DLys, La chair dans l’AT ’67; ASand, D. Begriff ‘Fleisch’ ’67 (Paul);
RJewett, Paul’s Anthropological Terms ’71, 49–166. On Ign.:
CRichardson, The Christianity of Ign. of Ant. ’35, esp. 49 and 61. S.
also the lit. s.v. πνεῦμα, end.—B. 202. DELG. M-M. EDNT. TW. Spicq.
Sv.
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., & Bauer, W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon
of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p.
916). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
Anonymous
RT Peter Vandever For all those who have been part of houses of prayer because of the influence of IHOPKC, now is not the time to leave the house of prayer because of discouragement or disillusionment. It’s the time to run TO the house of prayer! https://www.pentecostaltheology.com/why-i-left-ihop-church/
Anonymous
https://www.pentecostaltheology.com/mike-bickle-of-ihop-just-endorsed-ted-cruz/
Anonymous
https://www.kctv5.com/2023/10/30/leader-church-headquartered-kansas-city-investigated-sexual-immorality/
Anonymous
https://www.kctv5.com/2023/10/30/leader-church-headquartered-kansas-city-investigated-sexual-immorality/
Anonymous
We are heartbroken to share that we have recently become aware of serious allegations including sexual immorality directed against Mike Bickle, the founder of IHOPKC. Our leadership team takes these allegations very seriously and we are laboring for truth, light, redemption, and righteousness.
IHOPKC Executive Leadership Team Statement https://fox4kc.com/news/ihop-founder-investigated-for-sexual-immorality/
Anonymous
Troy Day thatâs a shame
Anonymous
Brett Dobbs ???
Anonymous
Dwayne Roberts and Brian Kim, former IHOPKC Executive Leadership Team Members and Board Members and Wes Martin, Former Forerunner Christian Fellowship Pastor and IHOPU employee released a statement concerning claims made against Bickle. The statement was posted on the website of the FlorianĂłpolis House of Prayer. It is a Brazilian church Roberts founded in 2013.
In the statement released Saturday, the three former church leaders said they informed current IHOPKC leadership about âserious allegationsâ involving Bickle. They claim the accusations against Bickle are sexual in nature. They claim Bickle sexually abused church members for decades which are credible based on the âcollective and corroborating testimonyâ of several alleged victims.
When these allegations were brought to our attention, we were shocked. We could never have imagined that inappropriate conduct with women as something we would ever need to be concerned about. The allegations seemed out of character to the man we thought we knew, but they were so serious we could not ignore them.â
Former IHOPKC Executive Leadership Team
Anonymous
âAs difficult as this is for many, we are trusting in Jesusâ wise and good leadership to help and strengthen us as we anchor our hope in Him,â IHOPâs leadership team said in a statement. IHOPKC opened in Grandview in 1999.
It also operates International House of Prayer University. People from around the world have come to the Kansas City-area to attend IHOPU. The organization says itâs mission is to train leaders through prayer and worship to prepare them for the return of Jesus.
Anonymous
I just finished my writing of the draft for the new e-book. This one will cause me some friends đ
Anonymous
https://www.pentecostaltheology.com/ihop-kc-has-moved-to-a-post-trib-eschatology/
Anonymous
Troy Day – IHOP has always been post-trib. I did a 4 month internship at the base in KC.
Anonymous
Ben Bottke so did Peter Vandever did you ever meet him? What is going on with this church right very now?
Anonymous
Troy Day – can you respond to my message to you on Facebook messenger? Weâre not Facebook friends so youâll have to find my message. We can become Facebook friends if you like.
Anonymous
Troy Day – it looks like I canât send you a friend request. I can only follow you.
Anonymous
Troy Day – What would you like to know about IHOP? Maybe you can send me some articles, posts, videos, etc. to show me what youâve seen.
Anonymous
Troy Day – I was really into IHOP for a while. From the summer of 2006 to around 2011. Iâve listened to a lot of their teachings. I was a part of getting a house of prayer off the ground here where I live. We tried to model it after IHOP. We used their model of worship & prayer they call harp & bowl and followed their 2 part manual for houses of prayer.
Anonymous
Philip Williams Jesuit or freemason?
Anonymous
Troy Day Iâm not a Bicklite!
Anonymous
Philip Williams you regret it as much as Peter Vandever ?
Anonymous
Troy Day say it ainât so, Joe!
Anonymous
Yes, those who pursue biblical truth will leave groups like IHOP II Tim. 2:15.
Anonymous
Duane L Burgess what do you know about all this Ben Bottke ?
Anonymous
https://www.pentecostaltheology.com/dictators-at-who-aim-to-begin-installing-a-one-world-government/
Anonymous
Jeffrey Snyder it is hard to follow what you said because you are all over the place
is this information of yours current or is it just heresay heresy or what?
Jeffrey Snyder
I remember (which in itself is a miracle of God) reading something similar when they were discussing a teaching using Songs of Solomon that Jesus is the woman/wifeâs boyfriend. The 24hr prayer- a good work. The cultish undergirding a sorrowful outcome.
Anonymous
it is hard to follow what Peter Vandever said because he seems upset now with them –
is this information of yours current or is it just heresay heresy or what?
I was part of the IHOP movement from 1999-2004 (off and on) and this is what I saw from an insiderâs point of view.
https://www.pentecostaltheology.com/i-was-part-of-the-ihop-movement-from-1999-2004/
5yrs over 20+ years ago does NOT bring ANY current perspective IMHO
Anonymous
Philip Williams it is hard for Duane L Burgess to follow what you said because you are all over the place is this information of yours current or is it just heresay heresy or what? are you ONLY talking about BETHEL or the whole movement including ihopKC https://www.pentecostaltheology.com/bethel-redding-is-a-very-cool-church/
Anonymous
Philip Williams since you are ignoring the real question here posting on minutia items I Will straight forward and directly address it for Duane L Burgess Peter Vandever and Ben Bottke NOT sure if Link Hudson has enough knowledge
Primary issues with IHOP: Heresy (New Apostolic Reformation â NAR), false teachers/heretics, women âpastorsâ/preachers
From my article Godâs Not Like âWhatever, Dude,â About The Way Heâs Approached in Worship:âŠ
Bethel âChurchâ in Redding, California, and IHOP are, functionally, ground zero for the New Apostolic Reformation heresy. Heresy. Not, âThey just have a more expressive, contemporary style of worship,â. Not, âItâs a secondary theological issue we can agree to disagree on.â Heresy. Denial of the deity of Christ. Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Demonstrably false prophecy that the head of IHOP, Mike Bickle, has publicly rejoiced in (He estimates that 80% of IHOPâs âpropheciesâ are false.) And thatâs just the tip of our metaphorical ice berg when it comes to the NAR.
IHOP and Bethel are, by biblical definition, not Christian organizations and certainly not Christian churches. They are pagan centers of idol worship just as much as the Old Testament temples of Baal were. The only difference is that, instead of being creative and coming up with their own name for their god, theyâve stolen the name Jesus and blasphemously baptized their idol with that moniker.
https://michellelesley.com/2020/07/24/the-international-house-of-prayer-ihop-mike-bickle/
Anonymous
Duane L Burgess Philip Williams Peter Vandever Ben Bottke Terry Wiles https://www.pentecostaltheology.com/bethel-church-glory-cloud-and-gold-glitter-investigation-and-responce/
Anonymous
it is hard to follow what Link Hudson said about pos-trib because he seems upset now with them – is this information of yours current or is it just heresay heresy or what? Does this mean he approves of the whole praxis @ ihopKC or just post-mil What about the approval of NAR leadership with Ted Cruse
Here is MY take on it – #IHOP-KC has moved to a post-trib eschatology
Finally able to locate in my notes collections, the handout from #IHOP-KC and confirm what Peter A Vandever was talking about their move toward post-trib eschatology Rick Wadholm Jr
#IHOP-KC has moved to a post-trib eschatology Finally able to locate in my notes collections, the handout from #IHOP-KC and confirm what Peter A Vandever was talking about their move toward post-trib eschatology Rick Wadholm Jr https://www.pentecostaltheology.com/ihop-kc-has-moved-to-a-post-trib-eschatology/
Anonymous
Ben Bottke my brother – I am not certain what you are saying or doing? SO o follow what you said because you are all over the place is this information of yours current or is it just heresay heresy or what? are you ONLY talking about KC ??!? or the whole movement including ihop church and Bethel?
====
I was really into IHOP for a while. From the summer of 2006 to around 2011. Iâve listened to a lot of their teachings. I was a part of getting a house of prayer off the ground here where I live. We tried to model it after IHOP. We used their model of worship & prayer they call harp & bowl and followed their 2 part manual for houses of prayer.
manual for houses of prayer IS the same thing Terry Wiles released from the BROWNSVILLE REVIVAL that Peter Vandever Gary Micheal Epping had never seen before though they claim acquaintance for some times. Means they were just visitors and not participants. Were you JUST a visitor too? https://www.pentecostaltheology.com/brownsville-revival-deliverance-nar-manuals/
Anonymous
Ben Bottke my original question was about you knowing and/or supporting or disregarding THAT #IHOP-KC has moved to a post-trib eschatology https://www.pentecostaltheology.com/ihop-kc-has-moved-to-a-post-trib-eschatology/
Anonymous
Ben Bottke my next question was WHEN MIKE #BICKLE OF #IHOP JUST ENDORSED #TEDCRUZ Were there for that one? Were you in full support of it AND Israel at the same time/ https://www.pentecostaltheology.com/mike-bickle-of-ihop-just-endorsed-ted-cruz/
Anonymous
Troy Day A formerly AG pastor at a church associated with an IHOP in Lawrenceville GA as of about 4 or 5 years ago said they believed in post trib or historical premillenialism.
Anonymous
Link Hudson old and unconfirmed info as usual of course Ben Bottke do you have insider knowledge when they changed their Trib stance ?
Anonymous
Troy Day No, I had a conversation with a pastor at Newbridge, now Gateway in Lawrenceville some time around 2018 or 2019.
Anonymous
Link Hudson IHOPs move to post-trib/post-mil was cir. SEPT 2016 https://www.pentecostaltheology.com/ihop-kc-has-moved-to-a-post-trib-eschatology/
Anonymous
Troy Day good for them.
Anonymous
Link Hudson yeah NOT so good as we can see right about now !
Anonymous
Troy Day troubles they are going through aren’t because of post-trib eschatology.
Anonymous
Troy Day – I started listening to IHOP teachings in 2006. Since then they have been very strongly post-trib. And they are very focused on end times. They used to preach on it at least 1x/week. Their weekend services were:
Friday: Intimacy
Saturday: End-times
Sunday: Various subjects
(Friday & Saturdays subjects might be flipped around. Itâs been a while.)
Where did you get the information from that said IHOP recently changed their position to be post-trib?
Anonymous
Ben Bottke đ
Anonymous
Link Hudson guessUdono
Anonymous
Troy Day Don’t know what? I saw a Michael Brown video on something a couple of days ago, first I’d heard of it, but it has nothing to do with pretrib.
I don’t agree with flippant attitudes towards false prophecy, but that doesn’t have much to do with eschatology. I’m sure I can think of pretribbers who had affairs or worse.
Anonymous
Link Hudson what going through as related to their post-trib eschatology
Anonymous
Ben Bottke HOW many women total have come out ? Peter Vandever knows 2mo International House of Prayer Kansas City founder Mike Bickle has agreed to step away from public ministry as he is investigated SAYS misconduct by multiple women Peter Vandever so have been claims toward many other TV evangelists – To be clear, the allegations made about Mike Bickleâs misconduct were sexual in nature where the marriage covenant was not honored. Furthermore, the allegations made also reveal that Mike Bickle used his position of spiritual authority over the victims to manipulate them https://acrobat.adobe.com/link/review?uri=urn%3Aaaid%3Ascds%3AUS%3Ad5880c52-be86-3dd3-8aa6-ec71974efceb
Anonymous
Troy Day – oh, I wasnât aware of the allegations against Mike Bickle. Why didnât you tell me that yesterday when you were talking with me?
Anonymous
Troy Day – could you send me any other videos, articles, documents, etc. about the situation?
Anonymous
Ben Bottke all in the comments here I do know Peter Vandever know a couple but not allowed to say Did you not meet any of the individuals involved while you were studying there or if you were ever present?
Anonymous
Terry Wiles your book and I would like to offer All PERRY Stone Teachings on the TRIBULATOIN to correct the wrong views Gary Micheal Epping Ben Bottke have received from iHOP Peter Vandever has changed to pre-trib while Ricky Grimsley is still way out there on the next asteroid 3rd rock for the moon … #FAKEblueBeam https://www.pentecostaltheology.com/all-perry-stone-teachings-on-the-tribulation/
Anonymous
Another matter related to full disclosure is my personal relationship with Mike Bickle. Some will insist that because of our friendship Iâm incapable of providing you with an objective perspective and that I will gloss over significant problems at IHOP. I doubt if there is anything I can say that will put to rest the fears of some critics. So I wonât try. What I will say is that Mike is one of my dearest, most beloved, and deeply cherished friends. That doesnât mean he and I agree on everything, as youâll shortly see. But it does mean that I know him better than most. My wife and I were part of a small accountability group for nearly seven years that included Mike, his wife Diane, and two other couples who were part of the senior leadership of the church before IHOP was launched. There isnât much we donât know about each other, our children, and our struggles. When we moved back to Kansas City in 2004, I was not officially a part of IHOP, but both my wife and I were regularly present for the prayer meetings, conferences, and other gatherings. When Mikeâs brother, Pat, went to be with the Lord in 2007, Mike gave me the privilege and honor of officiating his funeral service. https://www.samstorms.org/enjoying-god-blog/post/what-should-we-think-about-the-international-house-of-prayer–ihop–and-mike-bickle-part-one
Anonymous
@sam Storms have chosen to reflect A POINT-BY-POINT RESPONSE TO THE FILM, âCESSATIONISTâ â PART FIFTEEN – #15 instead of addressing the ihop FIRE – prior to the scandal Sam wrote in pre-pandemix 2019 From 1993-2000 I served as Mike Bickleâs associate pastor at what was first Metro Vineyard Fellowship in Kansas City, later called Metro Christian Fellowship. I also served as the President of our full-time Bible school, Grace Training Center. I was present when the 24-7 prayer movement first began. In May of 1999, we initially met at midnight on Friday and prayed and worshipped until 8:00 a.m. on Saturday. In September of 1999, the House of Prayer moved to 24 hours of prayer, 7 days a week. I was on its Board of Directors when the House of Prayer began, but resigned about a year later after having moved to Wheaton, Illinois, where I taught theology at Wheaton College from 2000-2004. My resignation was entirely due to the logistical challenges of serving actively on a board while living a considerable distance from the ministry. https://www.samstorms.org/enjoying-god-blog/post/what-should-we-think-about-the-international-house-of-prayer–ihop–and-mike-bickle-part-one
Anonymous
Alleged Victim 1
According to the Complaint Group this victim claims Bickle âemotionally pursued and âprophetically manipulatedâ her. The relationship happened more than 25 years ago, prior to IHOPKCâs founding. The relationship was not sexual, according to the information IHOPKC said it received.
Alleged Victim 2
IHOPKC said it was able to at least partially confirm this victimâs claims against Bickle. The allegation is form 26 years ago, also before IHOPKC was founded. The allegations include physical contact between Bickle and the alleged victim. While it is also insinuated that a crime was involved in the relationship, IHOPKC said it has not been able to confirm that claim.
Alleged Victim 3
The information IHOPKC provided shows this victim claimed Bickle pursued her emotionally and by âprophetic manipulationâ from 2013-2018. The woman then issued a public statement on Nov. 2, 2023, that she was not a victim of Bickleâs.
Alleged Victim 4
While the Complaint Group included this woman as a victim of Bickleâs she refuted the claims. She also said she did not want to be contacted about the issue again, according to IHOPKC.
Alleged Victim 5
This woman also refuted claims that she had been sexually and spiritually abused by Bickle. IHOPKC said its attorney spoke to the woman and she continued to deny any misconduct by Bickle.
Alleged Victim 6
IHOPKCâs leadership said a woman emailed after hearing that her name was being used in the allegations against Bickle. She allegedly said that all rumors involving her and Bickle were not true and denied any form of abuse or inappropriate relationship.
IHOPKC stated in the report that during the investigation âit became apparent that the Complaint Group did not have permission to include at least four of the women in their list of alleged victims.â
Anonymous
You mean International House of Pancakes
Anonymous
Evelyn Gardiner you can ask Peter Vandever
Anonymous
IHOP is theologically confused.
Anonymous
Duane L Burgess on which points would you say? Been trying to discuss this for years with Link Hudson Peter Vandever especially ON NAR eschatology once iHOP supported Ted Cruse for office OF course the silly joke by Evelyn Gardiner is that Ted iHop and M Brown do flip the pancake on theological issues
Anonymous
Troy Day I know iHOP teaches a post-mil or historical premil type eschatology, probably doesn’t emphasize it much, believes in salvation by faith, the ministry of peophets, but I don’t know enough detail about them that they have a common theology across their movement other than those and standard evangelical theology. I have never been to their KC IHOP.
Anonymous
Link Hudson you know for a FACT ihop teaches post-mil ?
Anonymous
Troy Day I read it online and a pastor from a large church in Atlanta that is affiliated with iHOP said they believed in post trib or historical premil.
But I do not know that it is a requirement to be in one or be a leader.
Anonymous
Link Hudson where online? you are now saying
post trib or historical premil
Which is not THE same as post-mil you stated in your previous post Perhaps a theological mismatch for you ???
Anonymous
Troy Day read it a while back. I think I read a link from this forum. it seems like you might have been on that thread. I remember posting that it looks like somebody has been reading the Bible.
Anonymous
Link Hudson read WHAT while back and where ???
Check your comments cause you are saying
3 different things in 2 comments !!!!
Are you saying iHOP is POST-MIL or not?
Anonymous
BTW Link Hudson I KNOW in your first statement
and I read it somewhere online long ago
are really 2 different thing – for the most part when you post I have learned that you dont really know much about
Anonymous
Troy Day I believe the leadership in KC MO is and one of the pastor involved with a church that was affiliated with IHOP in Atlanta said that they were post-trib or historical premillennialist but I do not know that it is some sort of a test to be a minister with them but certainly not to attend or participate.
But if you want to look it up look it up yourselves because I read somewhere online long ago it is about all you’re going to get from me on this topic at least anytime soon.
But you can search The forum and probably your own posts on the very topic. Not that Facebook’s tools are particularly helpful when it comes to searching a group.
Anonymous
Link Hudson If you are trying to understand the issues that have become the scandals around Mike Bickle and the International House of Prayer, you are joining many people with more questions than answers. There has been no shortage of dishonesty from the Executive Leadership Team (ELT) that operates basically as congregational elders.
As many know, I have been around IHOP before there was an IHOP and I have been on âmissionary staffâ since coming back in 2020. I know many of the people involved on both sides of this and I was part of IHOPKC when some of these things were going on. When I found out about the sin, the âdots began to connect.â On October 27th, (day I found out) the Holy Spirit spoke to me about four things that must happen prophetically. https://www.pentecostalnews.com/2024/01/07/understanding-ihopkc-crisis/
Anonymous
Troy Day btw, Bickle confessed he had sinned 20+ years ago but denied more recent allegations.
Did God tell you he lied about a prophetic dream?
Anonymous
Link Hudson Bickle confessed NOTHING to anything as Peter Vandever showed already. Our information in the group including this OP comes from Peter alone who was in a meeting with Bickle when we discussed their cameras and LIVE stream of all 24-hr prayer meetings; which meetings are now in question as to the mans place of transgression…. Peter then explained he wasnt in a meeting with Mike, he was in a meeting with a lot of ppl where Mike was prophesying over them into the new year 2022 perhaps it was … Additional information comes from Nelson Banuchi Philip Williams last one declaring Bethel and IHOP open heresy and somewhat a cult – not sure I was gonna poll Terry Wiles and other denominational specialists on the RESTORATION post today https://www.facebook.com/groups/pentecostaltheologygroup/posts/7073748322680122/
Anonymous
Troy Day IHOP comes out of Latter Rain which believe in a great end time revival, the very opposite of the apostate endtime church of Dispensationalism.
Anonymous
HOWEVER Duane L Burgess I suspect Peter Vandever left iHOP not merely on theological issues Philip Williams may have the clue too !
Anonymous
Duane L Burgess you are up and posting on FB @ 2am?
Whats up ? – is everything ok there
Troy Day
THANK YOU Dale M. Coulter THIS @highlight Ben Bottke Terry Wiles Peter Vandever Philip Williams Link Hudson John Mushenhouse Duane L Burgess Isara Mo Junior Beasley Jeffrey Snyder ==> https://julieroys.com/opinion-jack-deere-reevaluates-legacy-mike-bickle-kc-prophets-calls-for-investigation/?fbclid=IwAR1g6j-RW14Nxbwfg0xx3evAsB1IFDqMLKqr-qAm9h-senaExycVWvT_4sc