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Corey Forsyth | PentecostalTheology.com
Since we have been engrossed with demonology on many levels, I have a question. Is there a ranking system in the demonic realms? If so, where do we find this information?
Brian Crisp [11/15/2015 8:31 PM]
Yes. Ephesians 6:12
John Kissinger [11/15/2015 9:11 PM]
Nice question. Most certainly there’s such. Here’s a book about it written by someone who was heavily involved in occult http://www.divinerevelations.info/dreams_and_visions/dilivered_from_the_powers_of_darkness_by_emmanuel_eni.htm
Varnel Watson
I believe this to be true David Lewayne Porter
Terry Wiles
The Bible doesn’t rank them
David Lewayne Porter
I disagree with the ranking of the church under angelic host;
Ephesians 3:10.
Varnel Watson
You believe you can fly? Hebrews 2:7 You made them a little lower than the angels;
David Lewayne Porter
Lets clarify;
He was made lower than the angels how?
Let’s continue your verse –
“For the Suffering of DEATH”.
Physically because of our “human forms” we are lower than the angels, yes.
But not as God’s peak and priced creation.
Not as our “redeemed Spiritual standing”. I will again refer you to Eph 3:10 where the church is enlightening and educating the heavenly host.
Can angels be redeemed once they fall? No. Did God make a way for their redemption? No.
Can an Angel cast out another spiritual being? No
But WE do.
Do I think I can fly? You are so hilarious some times. I wonder where you come up with some of your statements.
Are you one of those that think saints die because God needs another angel? Do you believe they get their wings?
No, I don’t believe I can fly. I don’t believe I will fly in the new heaven and earth.
It will be more like a “hover”.
Those who minister, serve, care for others. Are they the higher rank or are they the servant to for those they are serving and ministering to?
Hebrews 1:13-14
But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
Are they (angels) not all “ministering spirits”, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
Angels ministering to the church, the redeemed, mankind.
One glad morning when this life is o’re
I’ll “hover” away……….
Varnel Watson
Not He – they, humans – Hebrews 2:7 You made them a little lower than the angels;
David Lewayne Porter
How are humans (He, we, they) made a little lower than the angels?
Only because of death.
Only, physical death.
Funny how you ignored the rest of the post,,,
I (dont) wonder why.
Varnel Watson
We dont know how. The Bible only tells us that they are Hebrews 2:7 You made them a little lower than the angels;
David Lewayne Porter
You may want to reread your verse.
αὐτός
Varnel Watson
I think NOT
Psalm 8:4 What is man that You take thought of him, And the son of man that You care for him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
ו ותחסרהו מעט מאלהים וכבוד והדר תעטרהו
τί ἐστιν ἄνθρωπος ὅτι μιμνῄσκῃ αὐτοῦ ἢ υἱὸς ἀνθρώπου ὅτι ἐπισκέπτῃ αὐτόν
The Authorised Version follows the LXX. in a translation suggested doubtlessly by the desire to tone down an expression about the Deity that seemed too bold. That version was adopted in his quotation by the author of the Epistle to the Hebrews (Hebrews 2:6-7). Undoubtedly the word Elohim, being used to express a class of supernatural beings, includes angels as well as the Divine being. But here there is nothing in the context to suggest limitation to one part of that class.
David Lewayne Porter
So you use the Greek in Hebrews 2:7 which is 3rd person singular for your reference and then cross reference to the Hebrew of Ps 8 which is in types and shadows to try and prove plurality.
Ok, let’s go your way.
I can handle that.
Christ,
and mankind
was made a little lower than the angels.
Yes
But you did not address the
How? or
Why?
By the ability to die.
We can die physically, the angels can’t.
But we can be and will be crowned with glory and be redeemed, we will judge those angels, so who is lower and how? Physically, only. Pre resurrection, pre glorification.
Hebrews 2:5-9
“For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak. But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
* But we see Jesus,
* who was made a little lower than the angels
* for the suffering of death,
crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.”
* our God is mindful of us, wow,
but continuing,
1 Corinthians 6:3a
“Know ye not that we shall judge angels?”
And
Who are teaching the spiritual beings – among who the angels are included – teaching them what?
Ephesians 3:10
“To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,”
The angels desire what we have and they are over us (spiritually speaking?, I think NOT!, I believe you put it that way)
David, your writer in Ps 8 was called a prophet and prophesied to our day to see – they enquired and searched diligently for – what we would receive. The same things the THE ANGELS DESIRE to simply Look Into.
1 Peter 1:10-12
“Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into”.
We “were” lower than the angels, it was called the fall,,, when man forfeited his authority to the serpent, satan, the devil.
Jesus was quoted this by satan during his temptation which was from Psalms 91:11-12
“For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways. They shall bear thee up in their hands, lest thou dash thy foot against a stone”.
* it appears that the angels are doing it but continuing,
“vss 13-16 Thou shalt tread upon the lion and adder: the young lion and the dragon shalt thou trample under feet. Because he hath set his love upon me, therefore will I deliver him: I will set him on high, because he hath known my name. He shall call upon me, and I will answer him: I will be with him in trouble; I will deliver him, and honour him. With long life will I satisfy him, and shew him my salvation”.
Are the Angels doing it as those over us, more powerful with more authority?
* We are the ones doing it, treading upon the lion and adder: the young lion and the dragon shalt thou trample under feet.
Why?
because the authority as in your diagram changed when Jesus came out of the tomb;
You are correct in the pre-Christ, and pre-resurrection age.
Here is what Jesus post-glorification says about it to the New Covenant New Testament church,
Mark 16:15-18 “And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.”
Was it because of those angels that are ministering spirits sent forth to minister unto the heirs of salvation?
No
Continuing Mark 16:20, “And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen”.
The Lord of glory Jesus was working with them personally one on one under His authority, not the authority of the angels, but His authority given to us.
With the glorification of Christ post death, burial, resurrection, and Ascension our authority is not under the angels.
Continuing Acts 1:8
But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judæa, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
Are those empowered with the indwelling Holy Spirit the Third Person of The God-Head/Trinity any less Spiritually Authoritative than the angels who are our ministering agents?
Yup
Hebrews 2:7
Greek 3rd person singular.
Varnel Watson
David Lewayne Porter Psalm 8:5 quoted in Hebrews 2:7 is also 3rd person singular (both hebrew and greek) referring to Adam not Son of God as you seem to imply. The only way your argument could work is giving the redeemed Church is the Body of Christ and hence above angelic beings. Argumentatively this could be true theologically, but just for the Redeemed part of human kind and not the whole human kind as referred to in Psalm 8:5 then in turn quoted in Hebrews 2:7
David Lewayne Porter
Troy Day
You got it!
Yes, the redemptive work and the redeemed portion of human kind. That is who we are and the reason we are here. That is why Jesus came afterall.
Other than the evangelistic aspect why would I be concerned about the authority rankings of angels or satan/demons when we have authority over them as the redeemed and Church?
Let’s address something you said;
Undoubtedly the word Elohim, being used to express a class of supernatural beings, includes angels as well as the Divine being. But here there is nothing in the context to suggest limitation to one part of that class.
The Divine Being,,,, Exactly, Deity!
So you think it includes angels?
Did you not read this in Hebrews chapter 1 that sets the foundation for chapter 2, Hebrews 1:6
“And again, when He bringeth in the Firstbegotten into the world, He saith, And let all the angels of God worship Him”.
Do angels worship anything or anyone other than God or Deity?
Even in human form Jesus was to be worshipped by the angels.
He was not created lower than the “angels” but lower than God/The Godhead – κενόω Philippians 2:7.
And what about the rest of mankind? I am glad you asked;
John 10:34-36 “Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law,
I said,
Ye are gods?
If he called them gods,
unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?”.
Man was never created less than the angels (less than is the original meaning, not lower than). They were created in the image of God, by God.
Man threw away their position of authority after they were created for it and given it.
I see where the thoughts (false thoughts) have come from as to how blood bought redeemed Christian believers could be possessed and have devils and be powerless to stop it.
They come by the error of thinking angels out rank believers.
Varnel Watson
Well not so quick. This is still not completed until the finial unification of Christ the Head with the Church Body. So for right now unless you can fly you are a bit lower than the angels.
David Lewayne Porter
Troy Day
As you said,
Well,
Not so quick.
Are you saying that Jesus was wrong when He stated as I pointed out
John 10:34-35 “Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are(εἰμί) gods(θεός)? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;”
Are you Troy Day, also trying to break the Word of God, break the Scriptures?
I have authority with my position as the Body now under the Head Jesus now.
Have you not read Ephesians 5:23, 1 Corinthians 11:3, and Col 2:11.
You see it is in effect “now” where you are waiting for “then” in the future.
May explain some other issues you are having with theology and application in the Church and Ministry setting.
Show me where WE ever fly according to the Scriptures.
How did THE LORD fly?
(Screen shot inserted)
In 1 Sam and Ps 18.
Do riches have wings and fly?
Provide 23:5.
Did Israel as a nation develop wings?
1 Samuel 15:19.
Did Moab as a nation have wings?
Jeremiah 48:9
Was the Woman of Rev given actual wings to fly?
Rev 12:14.
Jesus did not fly away, He ascended Acts 1:9 – He was taken up(ἐπαίρω), a cloud received(ὑπολαμβάνω) Him.
Or Paul 2 Corinthians 12:14.
Then the dead in Christ “shall rise” not fly(ἀνίστημι) 1 Thes 4:16
And us at our going to heaven “shall be caught up”(ἁρπάζω) 1 Thes 4:17.
As the ole song says,
“Some glad morning when this life is o’re, I’ll FLOAT away.
Varnel Watson
No to your personal questions. I am just quoting Psalm 8:5 which states man was created a bit lower than the angels. It’s what the BIBLE says not man etc.:
Psalm 8:5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
David Lewayne Porter
When was man created lower than the angels Troy?
Please do remember that you pointed out that Ps 8:5 actually was angels ĕlôhı̂ym – God.
Genesis 1:26-28
“And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.”
Was not satan casted down to the earth and was still living according to Rev 12:9?
When did that happen?
Didn’t satan say this in “Job 1:7
And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it”.
or
1 Peter 5:8
“Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour”.
Man gave over authority in the Garden in Eden after the fall.
Angels in Ps 8:5 ĕlôhı̂ym – God.
Exactly.
That lines up perfectly with Hebrews chapter 2, especially when you have just read Hebrews chapter 1 and understand exactly what the writer was communicating about Christ pre incarnation, at the incarnation, after the Incarnation, and post glorification.
Verse 4 is awesome.
Varnel Watson
In Psalm 8:5 him refers to Adam – as simple as that…
David Lewayne Porter
Adam, yes as he was mankind’s representative before the fall.
And yet a prophecy concerning Jesus the Christ.
Angels in that verse is what?
ĕlôhı̂ym
Meaning whom exactly?
Now then
Since the writer of Hebrews referenced that exact verse for Jesus
how then
do those over you of more authority, let’s say the angels worship one that is of lesser rank and authority?
Hebrews 1:6-8
And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
As Jesus was brought into the world the angels “worshipped” Him.
Let’s back up
Hebrews 1:2-5
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
You do remember that Christ came to put US back where WE where originally? Where is that,,,,
First Adam, second Adam 1 Corinthians 15.
We shall judge the Angels 1 Corinthians 6:3.
So you believe pre-fall that Adam was of lesser quality of the angels?
That is the meaning of “a little lower” than the angels,,, less in quality.
Sad, very sad belief and interpretation of that verse.
Let’s cut through it all,
What do the angels themselves who desire to look into the things we possess say about it?
Rev 19:10 & Rev 22:9 the angel calls man, redeemed man his fellowservant.
Meaning are we doing all we can, all we are called and equipped to do?
With the believe that you are made so low, so poorly, of a lesser and inferior quality
How are those possessed (c)hristians coming along?
You may want to call for angelic reenforcements. (Not that I personally believe either of those last two statements).
Varnel Watson
“God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind…” (Numb. 23:19)
David Lewayne Porter
Troy Day
One of my favorite verses.
And you are quoting it why?
Varnel Watson
God is not man … or a son of man (Numb. 23:19)
David Lewayne Porter
And?
Varnel Watson
And what was said above. You cant fly therefore below angels
David Lewayne Porter
So you count flying as the pentacle?
Funny,
Peter said salvation was what counted according to the very angels that you are judging man by;
1 Peter 1:12
Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
Brother,
If you want to be lower than the angels, then go for it.
You only raise to the level in Jesus that you personally decide to.
By the way,,,,,
Where does the Bible say man will fly?
Hover, yes
Be translated, yes
Oh yes,
Philip
Acts 8:39-40
And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Cæsarea.
Oh my, oh my.
Or Elijah
2 Kings 2:1
And it came to pass, when the Lord would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal.
2 Kings 2:11
And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
Oh, one more
Genesis 5:24
And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
When did God care enough about the angels to come reclaim one of them?
Who is the Apple of God’s eye?
An angel?
I think not,,,,
Deuteronomy 32:8-14
When the most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel. For the Lord’s portion is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance. He found him in a desert land, and in the waste howling wilderness; he led him about, he instructed him, he kept him as the apple of his eye. As an eagle stirreth up her nest, fluttereth over her young, spreadeth abroad her wings, taketh them, beareth them on her wings: So the Lord alone did lead him, and there was no strange god with him. He made him ride on the high places of the earth, that he might eat the increase of the fields; and he made him to suck honey out of the rock, and oil out of the flinty rock; Butter of kine, and milk of sheep, with fat of lambs, and rams of the breed of Bashan, and goats, with the fat of kidneys of wheat; and thou didst drink the pure blood of the grape.
And
Yet
Again
David, a man after God’s own heart said this,
“Psalms 17:8
Keep me as the apple of the eye, hide me under the shadow of thy wings,”
By the way,
The rest of that chapter would really do you some good.
Varnel Watson
Well just thinking logically. Flying is up there. You are down here. Just like the Bible says lower than the angels
David Lewayne Porter
You have yet to show where men will fly.
Troy Day
Your logic lacks scriptural support.
I have shown where we will get there without flying.
Varnel Watson
More Scriptural support to what I have given so far Matthew 22:30 ► At the resurrection people …. will be like the angels in heaven.
David Lewayne Porter
Lol,
And the verses explains it as context continues
“Matthew 22:30
For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.”
We are like them as we do not marry.
If we are going to be l like the angels, are the Angels going to be redeemed? Are they going to judge the angels?
Are they going to join in the song of the redeemed?
Please twist scripture with some one that does not know the scripture.
Here is the verse just preceeding your reference,
“Matthew 22:29
Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.”
Show me please oh show me where any “angel” other than the cherubims and seraphims have wings.
Are you using anthropomorphisms as reality.
When is the last time you mounted up with wings as an eagle?
Isa 40:31.
Did God actually bear Israel to Himself on eagle’s wings or did He lead through the wilderness for forty years by a cloud and a fiery pillar?
Exodus 19:1, Exodus 13:21.
Please continue
Varnel Watson
So are you saying that the context denies angels fly and humans will like angels only in heaven?
David Lewayne Porter
How are we like the angels Troy Day?
Please post your reference completely.
It will tell you how we will be like the angels.
Jesus said we would be like the angels as referring to Marriage in eternity.
Are the Angels redeemed?
Will we be (exactly) like/as the angels?
Come on brother.
Your theology is limited in the character and purpose of angels as well as the final state of the redeemed.
You will only find one verse in the entire bible where “angel” is used in a flying situation.
How does your God fly?
2 Samuel 22:7-11
In my distress I called upon the Lord, and cried to my God: and he did hear my voice out of his temple, and my cry did enter into his ears. Then the earth shook and trembled; the foundations of heaven moved and shook, because he was wroth. There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it. He bowed the heavens also, and came down; and darkness was under his feet.
And he rode upon a cherub,
and did fly:
and he was seen upon the wings of the wind.
On a cherubim.