video April 3, 2017 Promise for the Day – Eternal redemption. (Finis J. Dake) | PentecostalTheology.com Promise for the Day – Eternal redemption. (Finis J. Dake) dakedayeternalfinispromiseredemption PentecostalTheology .com Previous articleRanking system in the demonic realms Next articleAnother Pentecostal Perspective on Romans 7:14-25 92 Comments Reply April 3, 2017 Varnel Watson ETERNAL redemption is only possible through an ETERNAL SON – even DAKE admits it to be true Ricky Grimsley Tony Conger Reply April 3, 2017 Tony Conger We can keep round and round about this troy but there’s no sense in it. Please provide scripture for above statement or there’s no need to continue Reply April 4, 2017 Varnel Watson Pls re-read my previous posts. How many times and how many more scripture references will you need? The Bible is no proof for the people who openly rejects God’ supremacy and his omniscience , the absoluteness of the Bible and the eternal existence of the Son in the Trinity Reply April 4, 2017 Tony Conger You write scriptures that prove nothing and then say they do. You take an argument To its extreme position Such as you jusy did above. Not having an eternal sonship doesnt reduce omniscience or sovreignity so your mischaracterizing what wr say. I’m sorry but there’s no need to have conversations like that. Blessings Reply April 4, 2017 Varnel Watson No? You need a special post with just the Scriptures we’ve quoted thus far or just go back and read them again ? What about David Lewayne Porter and Jon Sellers were their scripture references to the eternal Son of God just argument? Reply April 4, 2017 David Lewayne Porter Tony Conger There is one thing I would like to present to you as a thought. The reason conversations get taken to the extreme is because they should be, imo. If each thought and point of theology would be taken to the extreme a lot of decisions would be changed and not made. Just think if Eve and Adam had of thought the original temptation through unto it’s extreme end. What if Cain had though the slaying of Abel through to it’s extreme end when God loving corrected him about his fallen countenance. And of Abraham when he went in unto Hagar. Most thoughts should be contemplated through to their “possible” extreme outcome because that is exactly where satan intends to take us at the ending of it all. He already sees the coming error as beginning small yet ending large. I do personally escalate some conversations as a way to shock people back to their senses and get them to examine the topic on a deeper level. Just a though to contemplate. Blessings. Reply April 4, 2017 Tony Conger Saying it takes away from God’s omniscience or sovreignity isn’t taking it to its conclusion. It’s simply inflammatory. I agree with your premise but it doesn’t apply to what troy has been saying Reply April 4, 2017 David Lewayne Porter Tony Conger My comment was from me to you. Half the time Troy and I agree, half the time I scratch my head and wonder where he is coming from, how he came to some of those beliefs, and why he believes them. I just think everyone needs to look deeper than the surface on the topics that matter. I do wonder how we think that Jesus can be the Redeemer of the Old Testament saints and He was not The Son (equal to The Lamb) for them – Hebrews 11:39-40 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect. Without their understanding of the Lamb which was to be reveled , The Son to come and be revealed they could not have obtained a good report as the rest of that chapter states. When was The Son revealed (Isa 9)? Verse 7 speaks of Christ’s eternal kingdom of peace and Him reigning upon Davids Throne eternally,,, Is Christ not the Eternal King now, even though He is not reigning fully, completely, in full power? Yes He is that King. He is just waiting to reveal it. His Father said this Hebrews 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? He is the King now. So it is with His Sonship. I love the way the question is asked about David and Christ as the Son of David Luke 20:41-44 And he said unto them, How say they that Christ is David’s son? And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Till I make thine enemies thy footstool. David therefore calleth him Lord, how is he then his son? Just a thought. Reply April 4, 2017 Tony Conger David Lewayne PorterI completely understand where you are coming from and you and I have had this discussion before. I certainly understand that point and it’s a great one. Definitely better than I’ve heard from anyone else who simply call me a heretic. Ithree can be no problem calling Christ the eternal king because it is set in stone. God said it was going to happen so it’s proper and understood that we can call him king and he could definitely be considered the son from the foundations of the world just as he is the lamp. but just as it says he was slain from the foundation of the world we know that didn’t happen till a particular moment in time. we know that king speaks of his future kingdom when he returns. What is your view of the future kingdom of Christ as per 1 for. 15:27-28. Will the son continue to rule over earthly kingdoms or the Godhead collectively? Reply April 4, 2017 David Lewayne Porter Tony Conger Simple question. If God calls something as He sees it and it is, and if He says it and it is If Jesus is that eternal reigning King and yet as of now He is not reigning but is seated at the Father’s right hand What makes Jesus being the Son of God any less real, actual, and a factual reality? Other than our personal inability to grasp, understand, and explain it? I guess the difference is Some of us know when God speaks it and thinks it, it is already a settled and done event. It is just awaiting the appropriate time to be revealed to mankind. Reply April 4, 2017 Tony Conger I never questioned whether or not it would come to pass. Are you a child of God? Are you redeemed? Of course we are so then why does it say in rom. 8:23 We are waiting for adoption? Is it questioning whether or not it will happen? Reply April 4, 2017 David Lewayne Porter Tony Conger Please finish quoting that verse….. Reply April 4, 2017 Tony Conger The redemption of the body? How does that change it? It’s defining adoption as the redemption of the body even though we say we are already adopted Reply April 4, 2017 David Lewayne Porter I hope Tony Conger that you are just debating and that you already know these things. 1) your verse Romans 8:23 adaption future we wait for our bodies, 2) adaption already the spirit of His Son by which we cry Abba Father Romans 8:15 we HAVE RECEIVED The Spirit of Adoption, which sets the stage for the verse you quoted down stream, please read in context don’t just pull a single verse out. Continue reading verses 16 & 17, we ARE the children of God, are*. 3) why are we waiting for the “complete” adoption, the redemption of our bodies for the thing that was be started and revealed but is only partially done to be completed? Because The Father told The Lamb – The Son to sit at his right hand until He made all of His enemies His footstool. The last enemy to be defeated will be death. 1 Corinthians 15:23-28 “But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. * The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death*. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all”. Wasn’t death defeated When Christ came out of the tomb? Yes, but not on the total full scale for all of creation. Creation itself moans and groans in anticipation the verse just before yours Romans 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. The Lamb and His Sonship was began at pre-time, pre-humanity but is revealed in part to humanity at various times as time rolls on according to His plan. You are looking at adoption and redemption through human eyes limited by time. With God it is not so, One thousand years is as but a day 2 Peter 3:8-9 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. Did you notice the verse before it where the world that we see are kept in store by the simple Word of God 2 Peter 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. Back up to verse 5 where we count God’s Word as settled and done 2 Peter 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: So when do we count it as true and fact? Some look for the revealing. I consider it done once it is spoken by God. Here is why Numbers 23:19-20 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good? Behold, I have received commandment to bless: and he hath blessed; and I cannot reverse it. God’s Word is action and creative power. Reply April 4, 2017 Tony Conger I’m not looking at it through human eyes. I believe that when God says it we can take it to the bank, however my point was that even though we have received the spirit of adoption and are redeemed scripture plainly says it has not been fulfilled yet. Just as in the way He is called the lamb slain from the foundation of the WORLD we are called redeemed but it hasn’t been fulfilled yet. Its plain in scripture that God calls those things that are not as though they are because ifbhe determines it then HE WILL make it happen. Lamb/Son/slain/redeemed. I hope you understand. If not I wish you the best Reply April 4, 2017 David Lewayne Porter And I wish you the best. I can’t scripturally back your stance. So you moved from our adoption to redemption due to we have already received our adoption by receiving His Spirit? Ok Are we redeemed? Will we be redeemed? Or were we redeemed? 1 Peter 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not *redeemed* with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; * We Have Been Redeemed. You are correct in that our redemption is not completed all at once. As you are holding on for the part not yet completed you can not deny the portions of our redemption that has been completed as showing in scriptures. There is my stance. Does not your Bible say, 2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. Can un-redeemed souls be present with the Lord after departing from these bodies? Can a redeemed soul be in the presence of God before their bodily resurrection? Our bodies are waiting. (Man is a Spirit, that lives in a body, that possesses a soul). All three are not done now, not all at one time. It is however done now in part. So back to the original issue, The Sonship of Christ from before eternity past, just because it was not revealed in the Old Testament to where it is crystal clear does not discount the revealing of it in the New Testament partially at different times. Reply April 5, 2017 Tony Conger That’s exactly my point. What is foretold is as good as done…but it’s not done. Just as he was not slain until a particular time even though he was called slain. (He even prayed for another way ….) The question of his eternal sonship can be asked like this “if God had not created man then wpuld jehovah still be considered the Son? Since the lack of creation would in no way affect the essence or nature of the Godhead? Reply April 5, 2017 David Lewayne Porter Then the answer is yes He would still be the son. He always has been. He is. He always will be. You said what God foretold Is as good as done (it is done – does not God’s simple Words have creative power). Due to “time” as known by man it may take some “time” to be revealed to us. Remember what Peter said about a thousand years of man being the same day to God. I think we both get the point each other is saying. That one hangup of “revealed” verses actually being “done” as much as I don’t like that we disagree I can deal with it. Blessings Reply April 5, 2017 Tony Conger You too sir Reply April 4, 2017 Varnel Watson Back to OP Tony Conger How is ETERNAL redemption even possible without an ETERNAL SON sacrifice? Reply April 4, 2017 Ricky Grimsley Your question doesnt make any sense Reply April 4, 2017 Varnel Watson Cheap excuse #Majorfail Tony Conger says Bible verses make no sense to him. When people do not recognize the Bible as THE final authority on God no theological doctrine makes sense to them Reply April 4, 2017 Tony Conger That’s not what I said if you can’t be honest in your argument therm we’re done. That’s called lying Troy Day you know what the bible says about lying? Reply April 4, 2017 Varnel Watson Cheap talk. No Bible. Just explaining your heresy away and when out of Biblical arguments start calling me names? Pls read my previous posts with so many many scripture references from the Bible and report back which ones you dont understand. Reply April 4, 2017 Ricky Grimsley Isaiah 7:14 KJVS  Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. Sounds like a future thing to me? Reply April 4, 2017 Tony Conger Your scriptures establish the eternity of Christ, not the sonship Reply April 4, 2017 Varnel Watson Which ones are you exactly referring to? Reply April 4, 2017 Tony Conger Please go back and read all my answers to specific scriptures. If you have questions feel free ask Reply April 4, 2017 Varnel Watson You have not answered any Scriptures. You have just explained it all away. All while not presenting not a single BIBLE verse to back your humanistic philosophy Reply April 4, 2017 Ricky Grimsley By Humanistic philosophy do you mean “the meaning of words” because there is no text that says jesus was the son from eternity past. He has no beginning, therefore sonship has to be a role that he submitted to and that requires a choice that a “person” can make, which denotes a chronology, which means there was a time before. Otherwise, you are saying that you have three persons in one being that somehow one is a father, and one is a son……but what about the other one? Reply April 4, 2017 Tony Conger What do you mean eternal son sacrifice? How does the mantle of sonship ending after the millennial reign affect the cross? Reply April 4, 2017 Varnel Watson The Bible speaks of NO “mantle of sonship” This is your only creation. If it is not the Bible it must be heresy Reply April 4, 2017 Varnel Watson Tony Conger Pls read my previous posts with so many many scripture references from the Bible and report back which ones you dont understand. Happy to explain them to you and Ricky Grimsley Reply April 4, 2017 Varnel Watson Enough with the cheap talk Tony Conger Ricky Grimsley Bro. David Lewayne Porter pointed to the eternal sacrifice of the Lamb / Son of God. Here it is again as plainly as possible from the BIBLE REVELATION 5:9; REVELATION 5:12; REVELATION 13:8; ISAIAH 53:7; JOHN 1:29; JOHN 1:36; 1 PETER 1:19 9 And they sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood wyou ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation, 12 saying with a loud voice, “Worthy is the Lamb who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing!” 8 and all awho dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb dwho was slain. 7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, syet he opened not his mouth; like a ulamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent, so he opened not his mouth. Behold, the Lamb of God 29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who ytakes away the sin of the world! 36 and he looked at Jesus as he walked by and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God!” 19 but twith the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb vwithout blemish or spot. Reply April 4, 2017 Ricky Grimsley No mention of sonship? Reply April 4, 2017 Tony Conger How does any of those prove eternal sonship? please expound Reply April 4, 2017 Varnel Watson No need to expound the Bible It is sufficient for itself Are you hereby openly denying the Lamb of God is the Son of God? Reply April 4, 2017 Tony Conger What? You know very well I believe he is both the son and the lamb. Either you don’t understand what I believe or you’re intentionally mischaracterizing Reply April 4, 2017 Varnel Watson Really? That’s all you got? Are you saying the Lamb of God is not the Son of God? #hello believing in 2+ sons arent you? Tony Conger Reply April 4, 2017 Ricky Grimsley I think troy just avoids what you say because he has no argument Reply April 4, 2017 Tony Conger Yeah I see that Reply April 4, 2017 Ricky Grimsley Jesus is God Jesus is the lamb Jesus is the word Jesus is the only unique son of God. However, he took on flesh at a certain time and died and was resurrected as a son. Just post one scripture that says Jesus was a son at creation and then we we will say you win? Reply April 4, 2017 Varnel Watson You just denied REVELATION 5:9; REVELATION 5:12; REVELATION 13:8; ISAIAH 53:7; JOHN 1:29; JOHN 1:36; 1 PETER 1:19 Reply April 4, 2017 Tony Conger How??? Why won’t you explain??? Reply April 4, 2017 Varnel Watson You 2 are yet to cite any Bible to back your heresy … but wait aint no Bible to back yours or any heresy – just humanistic blah-blah-blah from u2 – I cite again REVELATION 5:9; REVELATION 5:12; REVELATION 13:8; ISAIAH 53:7; JOHN 1:29; JOHN 1:36; 1 PETER 1:19 Reply April 4, 2017 Tony Conger Were not the ones saying he was the in the beginning and you still won’t explain how anyone of those scriptures shows your belief. Tell me this do you believe he was the lamb before the foundation of the worlds? Reply April 4, 2017 David Lewayne Porter Yes Reply April 4, 2017 Ricky Grimsley We dont need bible to back what we say. We are asking you to prove what you say. You say jesus was a son back in eternity past…. Show me one scripture and it sufficeth us. Lol Reply April 4, 2017 Tony Conger Bueller????….bueller??….. Reply April 4, 2017 Varnel Watson Many Scriptures shown above straight from the BIBLE but the blind cant see it… Instead they keep on saying (and I quote) “Ricky Grimsley: We dont need bible to back what we say” Of course not. Who needs the Bible to back up your humanistic philosophy right? Reply April 4, 2017 Ricky Grimsley I dont have to back what i say because im not trying to prove anything except the absence of what you are saying. Reply April 4, 2017 Varnel Watson A very typical response by humanistic philosophy – a clear refusal to agree with the Bible and an open rejection of the Word of God i.e. heresy Reply April 4, 2017 Ricky Grimsley Show me one scripture i disagree with? Reply April 4, 2017 Varnel Watson Seriously? Again? Is this really all you got in this discussion? It’ starting to be such a lame move that I will quote the Street Preacherz — A wicked and adulterous generation seeks a sign… Reply April 4, 2017 Street Preacherz I think that was Jesus. There is a heroin epidemic, An assault on our culture A church adrift Ok, Carry on…. Reply April 4, 2017 Ricky Grimsley Im not looking for a sign. Just a proof of your accusation. Reply April 4, 2017 Varnel Watson And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. (Colossians 1:17) Reply April 4, 2017 David Lewayne Porter Ricky Grimsley The Old Testament will not show Jesus as the Son of God from eternity past. They saw in types and shadows. Tony Conger asked Troy Day if he believed Jesus was the Lamb before the foundation of the world, (not world-s). According to you Ricky, Jesus is The Word, God, The Lamb, God’s unique Son, St John says “only begotten”. So When was He The Word? When did He as The Word begin? Did He stop being The Word? But When did He get revealed as The Word? Same questions about The Lamb; When was He The Lamb? When did He as The Lamb begin? Did He stop being The Lamb? But When did He get revealed as The Lamb? So When was He God? When did He as God begin? Did He stop being God? But When did He get revealed as God? So it is with The Son, When was He The Son? When did He as The Son begin? Did He stop being The Son? But When did He get revealed as The Son? Did He ever cease being one of these in order to be one of the others? I want to ask this, did He ever add one of these parts of Himself, since you said that this is Who He IS? How do you explain Him being The Redeemer of the saints under the Old Covenant and He at that time “according to your theology” was not yet The Son who is The Lamb? No Son = No Lamb. As The Lamb was in existence from pre-time through timeless history in our future – a future that exists but we just have not had it revealed at the time, so He being The Lamb = The Son we just had the Son revealed at God’s “fulness of time”, Gal 4:4. Gal 4:4 says born of a woman. He was born in the flesh because a body there has prepared me Heb 10:5. It is put this way in Phil 2:6&7 He was equal with God and took upon Himself the “Form” of a servant ὑπάρχω of vs 6 The screen shot of vss 6 &7 is included. God sent forth His Son, John 3:16&17, You don’t sent what does not already exist. John 3:14 Jesus referred to Himself as The Son of Man. John 3:18 Jesus continued the thought by referring to Himself as The Son of God. You may want to research Son of God and Son of Man since you do not understand the “uniqueness” of the relationship between The Father and The Son as in being only begotten. Reply April 4, 2017 Varnel Watson The other way around – I asked Tony Conger if he believed Jesus was the Lamb before the foundation of the world. Instead of answering he just explains away how bad some straw man argument is – an argument no one here even argues The BIBLE says – And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. (Colossians 1:17) Reply April 4, 2017 Varnel Watson AS clear as DAY light – – – Rev 13:8 Book of Life of the Lamb, slain from the foundation of the world. Reply April 4, 2017 Ricky Grimsley But he wasnt actually a lamb was he? Reply April 4, 2017 David Lewayne Porter Yes He was. What was John told? Reply April 4, 2017 Ricky Grimsley But we understand that sacrificial language as opposed to an actual 4-footed animal? Reply April 4, 2017 David Lewayne Porter So your point,,, oh yes, You said pointless ? Reply April 4, 2017 Ricky Grimsley Honestly, my point is trying to interact with people on a whole variety of levels and different points of view. I have yet to see any proof of eternal sonship. Again no meaningful definition of son can be applied to Jesus before creation? What does it mean to be a son.? Reply April 4, 2017 Ricky Grimsley And most of this is pointless because troy day keeps saying things i dont say. Reply April 4, 2017 David Lewayne Porter Ricky I am sorry but you also say that you do not see proof or evidence of exhaustive foreknowledge allowing personal freewill. I do agree that people either misunderstand what we post or do place words in our mouths. I hope it is the first. Reply April 4, 2017 Ricky Grimsley But at least with exhaustive foreknowledge there are scriptures that support your claim from your point of view like “declaring the end from the beginning” and prophecies and such. With eternal sonship there arent any such scriptures that i have seen. Reply April 4, 2017 Tony Conger Again as much as you would for the argument to be about his eternal existence it is not. We all agree to that and again you canmot and will not answer my question. Obviously he existed prior to the foundation of the world’s correct? I believe that all day long. So was he the lamb prior to the foundatuons of the worlds being made? If not why was he the son? If so please explain the reason why it only says from the foundations of the world? That was the beginning of our time but not the beginning of his!! Reply April 4, 2017 David Lewayne Porter Prior to the foundations of the worlds? Tony Conger You do not even see it is world, not worlds. It is foundation not foundations. When was the book of life written? With the pre-existing God point one, or when He started creation. The book is what was relational to man’s existence and time, not the Lamb or The Son. Go reread it. Reply April 4, 2017 Tony Conger How can the lamb/ son not be relational to mankind? Why would there need to be lamb/son if notto redeem man? Reply April 4, 2017 Tony Conger John: 3. 16. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. – Bible Offline doesn’t this prove that he was the son only because he was begotten? Reply April 4, 2017 Tony Conger Imho it all boils down to this simple question, if God had not created man would jehovah still be called the son? Reply April 4, 2017 David Lewayne Porter Tony Conger I did not say the Lamb and Son where not relational to mankind. I said the book was relational to man’s existence and time. Did you not notice the “and time”. Let me state it this way. The Lamb And The Son are not relational to man as applied to time. They are relational to man because He is the Lamb, He is the Son regardless of the existence or time or the lack there of. The same way He always has been relational to The Father as The Lamb and The Son regardless of time. Time only determines revelation “when the fulness of time had come”, did time fulfill or did just God’s preordained and predetermined timing for that event in human history as preordained by Him pre-time pre-human existence? The Son and Lamb are relational to God the Father whether pre-time, during time, are as it will happen post time (as we know it). Reply April 4, 2017 Ricky Grimsley Pointless Reply April 4, 2017 David Lewayne Porter Exactly Reply April 4, 2017 Ricky Grimsley How about this. Was jesus sin in the beginning or is he sin now? God forbid. 2 Corinthians 5:21 KJVS  For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. Reply April 4, 2017 David Lewayne Porter How about you go study that one before you make some terrible theological errors. Was Jesus ever sin? The only thing that can be laid to Jesus is, Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: Next. …. Reply April 4, 2017 Ricky Grimsley Where is the error? Was jesus a curse from the beginning…..obviously not. Reply April 4, 2017 David Lewayne Porter You said sin,,, not curse. I said curse and shared the verse to explain your thought of Jesus becoming sin. There is a big difference in curse and sin. When had God planned Jesus as the Slain Lamb, according to God’s exhaustive foreknowledge? Goes back to rightly dividing scripture to get a complete thorough understanding. Reply April 4, 2017 Tony Conger Same logic Reply April 4, 2017 Ricky Grimsley Was jesus high priest in the beginning? Reply April 4, 2017 David Lewayne Porter Was He The Lamb in the beginning? If he was the Lamb then He is the High Priest at the same time. The only one qualified to die for our sins is the only one qualified to be the High Priest and offer the blood of That Lamb upon God’s altar for eternity. Reply April 4, 2017 Ricky Grimsley Well again i dont believe that “foundation of the world” = Genesis 1:1 Reply April 4, 2017 David Lewayne Porter So where was your God and The Word prior to Genesis 1:1? Where was The Lamb? Where was the Lamb’s Book of Life? Reply April 4, 2017 Ricky Grimsley The lambs book of life didnt exist prior to genesis 1:1. As for the God head i dont know in what “state” they were. I know that in the beginning was the word, and the word was God and was with God. I believe the foundation of the world was either the fall of lucifer or the fall of adam and then God decided on the lamb plan and slowly revealed it to us starting with the seed of the woman prophecy to satan. Reply April 4, 2017 David Lewayne Porter So you see, that is where we differ. You still believe that God ran around playing catch up after His creation threw Him a curve. Well,,, there was no reason for the Lamb, or His book of life, or that plan according to your theology prior to the fall of man. The fall of lucifer would not have required it because God could not have known lucifer would defile Eve and cause the corruption of Adam and the entire human race (according to your theology). But you are not sure if the foundation of the world was with lucifer or mankind, so we wait on that one… Moving along, Since you don’t know the state or existence of God – the Godhead prior to Genesis 1:1 we do know He existed, * We know He Existed in light because He is the Father of light and in Him is no darkness or shadow of turning, yet He Existed in darkness – prior to Genesis 1:1. We know that He was self existing, but how? Point number one – it is a fact that has to be accepted but can’t be explained. * We know God created a dark world in chaos being a God of light and order, and lived in it for an undisclosed period,,, why? Point number two – it is a fact and must be accepted even though not explainable. * God existed before time and time was created for creation not the Creator. Point number three – time is of no consequence to God and His personal existence & Character,,, it must be accepted even though it can’t be explained,,,, * God spoke everytime except man (maybe even man) into existence by His Word, we just know that God made man male and female in his image. Male from the dust of the ground, female from the side – rib of the male),, how? Point number four – it must be accepted but can’t be explained, ,,, * God spoke light into existence By His Word and then separated it from the darkness creating recordable time how? Point number five – time does not control everything, especially God. In addition to God other things existed and functioned according to the will of God before time. And even though you admit you don’t know anything prior to Genesis 1:1 you deny Eternal Sonship preexisting, God’s exhaustive foreknowledge, etc. Ok, I get it. I stand firm in the certainty of my theology because these unanswered questions strengthen my stance and belief in an omnipotent and omniscient God and creator. God had everything He needed with Him before man was created either by Their pre-existence or by creating it/them. So on the line of thought that God knows all in eternity past……… How did David call His Son (Son of David) his Lord? Mark 12:35-37 And Jesus answered and said, while he taught in the temple, How say the scribes that Christ is the Son of David? For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The Lord said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool. David therefore himself calleth him Lord; and whence is he then his son? And the common people heard him gladly. When was it determined the Christ would be David’s son? When did God know David would be a man after His own heart? Reply April 4, 2017 Ricky Grimsley You can see over and over that God had a plan that the devil and man kept messing up. God kept separating out a man over and over preserving a bloodline even when they werent righteous because of his choice. God revealed his plan piece by piece. Obviously he intended for perfect humans to subdue his earth but they failed. God chose adam. After the fall he revealed the virgin birth so the devil attacked the women in genesis 6. He chose noah and the devil attacked ham and deceived the people to build babel. So god gave humanity to the angels in deuteronomy 32:18 and picked out abraham. Then god picked isaac then jacob then judahs line to be king. As for david the bible says he looked for a man. Does it not mean that?1 Samuel 13:14 KJVS  But now thy kingdom shall not continue: the Lord hath sought him a man after his own heart, and the Lord hath commanded him to be captain over his people, because thou hast not kept that which the Lord commanded thee. Reply April 5, 2017 David Lewayne Porter You seem to think that God did not know or intend a thing until He actually does it or reveals it. Sorry, I can’t help you get over or around that issue. Reply April 5, 2017 Ricky Grimsley Ok you win. Im a Calvinist now. 1 Peter 2:8 ESV  and “A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense.” They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do. Reply April 5, 2017 David Lewayne Porter Your words brother, not mine. I did not say that nor imply it. I do not agree with Calvinism either. Reply April 5, 2017 Varnel Watson Good questions David Lewayne Porter When was it determined the Christ would be David’s son? When did God know David would be a man after His own heart? Here is another one which Ricky Grimsley and Tony Conger fail to answer: When was that day of Psalm 2:7 You are my Son; TODAY I have begotten you. ?!? Leave a Reply Click here to cancel reply. Cancel replyComment Name Email Website Δ This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.