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Is open theism heretical?
In an effort to make God more appealing to our society men like Greg Boyd, Clark Pinnock, Richard Rice, and John Sanders have promoted a God who “does not know every detail about what will come to pass…[T]he future is, to some degree at least, open ended and God knows it as such.”[1] Is this a biblical view of God? Have these well-intentioned men simply misinterpreted some biblical passages? Or is it much more sinister?
Jon Sellers [11/06/2015 2:32 PM]
A heresy would be something that denies an essential aspect of God and Christ and the plan of salvation such that to believe it is to miss knowing Christ is a salvific way.
Open Theism affirms all the orthodox qualities of God and Christ and the plan of salvation.
As our understanding of reality has changed over the centuries we can better articulate how the God revealed in Christ relates to the world in which we live.
While we now understand the earth is not supported by pillars and does not have a firmament in the heavens holding back the waters, we still understand that the God of Genesis created the world as we know it. We just know the reality of the world better than the ancient writers could have.
Therefore, Open Theism is not heresy, but a way of understanding the attributes of God in relation the His creation.
John Kissinger [11/06/2015 2:33 PM]
A main concern with open theism is: IF God does not know it all, how can we ever prophecy?
Brian Roden [11/06/2015 2:34 PM]
God could still foretell something through prophecy because He knows what His plans are, and He has the power and authority to carry them out. From what little I’ve read from open theists, they still believe in God’s omnipotence and ability to carry out His plans without being thwarted. Rather than saying that God knows every minute detail of what will happen (exhaustive foreknowledge), they see a God who is big enough to plan for every contingency and still achieve His ultimate will no matter what fallen angels or mere mortals may choose to do in the meantime.
Jon Sellers [11/06/2015 2:35 PM]
What is the nature of prophecies given by people? Are they not mostly conditional, especially today.
Ricky Grimsley [11/06/2015 2:43 PM]
Well greg boyd is not entirely correct because the future is not entirely open ended. There are prophecies that will be fulfilled. However it will be because sets it up to happen not because he foresaw the future. God told ninevah they would be destroyed but they repented and he changed his mind. Jonah 3:10 KJVS [10] And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.
Ricky Grimsley [11/06/2015 2:45 PM]
How many scriptures say this. Why did this happen???? Not because the future was known but so god’s prophecy would be fulfilled. Matthew 26:56 KJVS [56] But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled. Then all the disciples forsook him, and fled.
John Conger
its not to “make God more appealing”. its to legitimately address the scriptures of God learning, reacting, and the issues of God not being responsible for sin and tragedy of in fact he created man knowingnit would happen
Roger David
Everyone who prays is to some degree and Open Theist.
John Conger
lol no doubt
Ricky Grimsley
Not john piper. Lol
Varnel Watson
So Philip Williams are you openly confessing to be openly theistic or are you more of the relational theology inclination ?
Philip Williams
What! God is a person and his children have a relationship with him through his Son, Jesus Christ. But though I personally knew the father of open theism, the process philosopher Charles Hartshorne, I have never been an open theist.
Varnel Watson
relational theology is a very close call IMO
Philip Williams
Troy Day I don’t know what goes by that term in pop theology today. The importance isn’t what anyone thinks or not but whether biblical. If personal relationship is denied, it’s the furthest thing from every Pentecostal I have ever known deserving of the name.
Varnel Watson
not sure what pop theology is either and wasnt addressing it at all in this semi-serious discussion
Neil Short
I don’t see Philip Williams’ comment; but I have to say, it looks like your (1) demonizing open theism, and then (2) outing open theists
Varnel Watson
why dont you see Philip Williams’ comment Neil Short? He says he knows the father but does not agree with the theory
Neil Short
This article does not begin well by assuming something about open theist’s motives. I think their motives are not for appeal except in the fact that the classical model of God (as all foreknowing) is unbiblical and frequently devastating to Christian faith. When people try to draw nearer to God and they encounter contradictions, they don’t know what to believe and their love for God grows more distant and sometimes goes away altogether. The problem is that the God described in the Bible is different from (contradictory to) the classical assumptions of an essentially Calvinist god.
Varnel Watson
What article? – all I see is a discussion…
Neil Short
Quote: In an effort to make God more appealing to our society men like Greg Boyd, Clark Pinnock, Richard Rice, and John Sanders have promoted a God who “does not know every detail about what will come to pass…[T]he future is, to some degree at least, open ended and God knows it as such.”[1]
That’s a little slanted.
Varnel Watson
oh this one is from The Dangers of Open Theism
by Tim Chaffey quoited from [1] Greg Boyd, God of the Possible: A Biblical Introduction to the Open View of God (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker, 2000) p. 8.
demonizing it – NO
calling it open heresy – YES
Neil Short
Neil Short “How many here are open theists? Before you raise your hands let me say with personal confidence that openness theology is heresy. Okay, now raise your hands.”
Neil Short
Oh man. I just wrote a carefully written comment by thumb-typing on my tablet. I accidentally brought up the ani-gifs and lost the whole text. I need to get some sleep; so it’s going to wait at least 6 hours.
Varnel Watson
give us the short version brief then
Neil Short
I came to open theism on my own – without reading any books. I just started noticing the disjunction (contradiction) between the Bible presentation of God and the classical Christian assumptions about God.
I was an Arminian (God is all-foreknowing but does not cause those events — particularly people’s future decisions); but I found this view to assume a lot outside the Bible. If classical Armnianism is true then prayer means nothing and God has no power to alter the course of history. The way the Bible presents God is as one who desires sincere chosen relationship. Thus, the biblical God would not coerce people’s choices and so compromise their choices to freely love God.
I came to this simple understanding in about 1982 which (I think) predates anything written about open theism. In around 2000, I was reading a book that was critical of Calvinism. The author took some time to criticize open theism and I realized that is what I believe. I looked up some of the authors and found that I agree with them.
There are several approaches to open theology. One approach is purely philosophical/theoretical. The other approach is strongly biblical. Different folks approach theology from a combination of the two. I am strongly on the side of the Bible. Philosophy is interesting; but not all that convincing to me.
Varnel Watson
thats like the Jesus only feller who said the Holy Spirit showed him the Jesus only teaching on his own
Philip Williams
Neil Short what you may be overlooking is that it is Christ who appears in the OT passages. The Father appears in the OT only in Christ. It is he who knows all things, even the future. Else he would not be God.
Varnel Watson
IS A THEOPHANY then GOD OR NOT? http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/is-a-theophany-god/
Philip Williams
Troy Day by definition!
Neil Short
Philip Williams woah. Whose definition? Certainly not the Bible’s; so who’s? To say God must be this-or-that or he is not God is not good theology if that definition is invented.
Philip Williams
Neil Short it’s not theology. It’s the definition of a word: theophany.
Varnel Watson
how is the poster posting during church times?
Philip Williams
I am headed to Warsaw to speak to the Roman Catholic Church of Poland. They invited me and are paying my expenses.
Philip Williams
https://www.facebook.com/events/587149661696394/?ti=ia
Varnel Watson
ask them why religia.TV is down
Philip Williams
Troy Day maybe I’ll help em jump start it.
Varnel Watson
we helped them 10 yrs ago but still no go
Neil Short
Philip Williams Theophany? Interesting. You are the first person I have spoken with who actually defended a statement like, “If God does not have exhaustive definite foreknowledge then he is not God.” It is based on the definition of “theophany” (god appears). I do see theophany in the Bible; but I don’t see exhaustive definite foreknowledge in the Bible nor in the basic definition of theophany.
Philip Williams
Neil Short God can wipe out the past, change the future. For him, time travel is a piece of cake.
Neil Short
Philip Williams Is that in the Bible?
Philip Williams
Neil Short certainly is!
Neil Short
Where?
Neil Short
Isaiah 46:10?
Philip Williams
“For nothing will be impossible with God.””
Luke 1:37
Neil Short
Philip Williams You believe that is a general metaphysical claim rather than something relating to Elizabeth’s pregnancy?
Neil Short
Matthew 18:18-19. Was Peter omnipotent? Are we?
Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven. Again, truly I tell you, if two of you agree on earth about anything you ask, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven.
Was Paul omnipotent?
Philippians 4:13
I can do all things through him who strengthens me.
Did John convert everyone in Judea?
Mark 1:5
And all the country of Judea was going out to him, and all the people of Jerusalem; and they were being baptized by him in the Jordan River, confessing their sins.
Does God give everything to everyone?
Acts 17:25
nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things;
When you love some one, do you suddenly believe everything?
1 Corinthians 13:7
It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
Philip Williams
Neil Short I don’t doubt his word. I have unbounded confidence in God’s goodness and power.
Neil Short
Philip Williams Me too.
Varnel Watson
Are open-theists going to hell? If so what can they do since God either… determined that they would be open-theists, or knew they would be open-theists and created them anyway. Seriously, though. How many would consider my position that God does not have exhaustive foreknowledge a “damnable heresy”. Joe Absher Philip Williams
while keeping the main thing the main thing the problem with topics like this started in the group long ago by Ricky Grimsley is that 5000+ discussions later the Link still keeps popping up and ppl discuss it with great interest – but is it finally resolved?
Derrick Stokes
Troy Day If God does not have exhaustive foreknowledge, how can he be God?
Link Hudson
Did Old Testament saints or preAugustinuan believers all go to Hell? It seems likely that some of them were not determinists.
RichardAnna Boyce
people go to hell because of unbelief in Jesus to give them eternal life. If someone believes this at the time of saving faith; but later gets into wrong theology, then they go to heaven, not hell.
Varnel Watson
RichardAnna Boyce do you think open theists progress unbelief in Jesus?
Philip Williams
Troy Day Charles Hartshorne from whom Open Theists derive their arguments was a Panentheist but not a Christian.
But, as I pointed out to Hartshorne, pantheism, which derives from the operations of the physical world, cannot explain backward causation, an empirical truth. In a letter to me, Hartshorne conceded the problem.
Varnel Watson
Philip Williams there is not stronger evidence as to the fallacy of open theism than the fallacy of its author
Philip Williams
It would be good if we acknowledge the Son as God’s agent and presence in the Creation and all throughout the Scriptures. The Son is the Creator of Divine Time and acts within Divine Time just as we see the Lord doing all throughout Scripture. The Son does not have exhaustive foreknowledge, but the Father who lives outside Divine Time as well as inside Divine Time, does.
Thus, we see the Son learning about his own Creation all throughout Scripture. He is doing what pleases his Father, who is God Almighty and a God whose nature is love.
Mike Partyka
Can’t have Christ as “savior“ and not “Lord”. He is both. Open theism denies this.
Philip Williams
We must acknowledge that the Father lives outside of Divine Time, a Creation of his Son, and for sure outside of the physical time in which our bodies live. Otherwise, Time is God rather than a personal God.
RichardAnna Boyce
ive not heard of open theists before. Faith is the persuasion or conviction that something is true. In Acts
17:4 Luke tells us concerning Jews at the synagogue in Thessalonica,
“And some of them were persuaded.” Then in the next verse he reports,
“But the Jews who were not persuaded…attacked the house of Jason…”
A few verses later Luke reports on the response of Jews at the synagogue
in Berea: “Therefore many of them believed…” (v 12). Clearly the persuasion of vv 4-5 is synonymous with the belief of v 12. Faith is persuasion of the truth of a fact or proposition, in this case, that Jesus is the
Messiah who guarantees everlasting life to all who believe in Him.
Philip Williams
RichardAnna Boyce correct. You don’t know this subject that has been discussed among theologians for more than 50 years. Why am I not surprised that you don’t hesitate to opine on a subject about which you have never heard?
RichardAnna Boyce
i was commenting on the OP. I believe that if someone starts off, or learns, the right faith; but later beliefs a wrong faith (open theism) , then that believer goes to heaven not hell.
RichardAnna Boyce
so my comments are on when and why we want to send someone to hell.
Philip Williams
RichardAnna Boyce are you a universalist?
RichardAnna Boyce
Philip Williams of course not. Only those who believe (at a one time event) in Jesus as their personal Saviour (receive eternal life.
Philip Williams
RichardAnna Boyce so you disagree with Jesus, the Apostles, and the book of Hebrews concerning the reality of apostasy. It makes sense that a know-it-all like you would suppose that you know more than all of them.
But why is a Baptist in a Pentecostal forum?
RichardAnna Boyce
Another view, one I am comfortable with, is that a person can grow
in faith by increasing the number of biblical propositions which he or she believes. It is not that a person can have more or less faith in any single proposition. It is that a person can come to be convinced of additional truths found in Scripture.
Varnel Watson
that a person can grow is irrelevant as to the all knowingness of GOD himself – our knowledge does not change Him
Philip Williams
Troy Day why inject a know-it-all like RichardAnna Boyce into this conversation when he knows nothing at all about this topic? The question is for you Troy Day.
RichardAnna Boyce
Troy Day not grow in knowing but grow in believing
George Burbank
If “known to God from eternity are all His works” does not convince you that God has “exhaustive foreknowledge”, what would?
He is, after all, a counter puncher.
Tyler Lee Price
Alright, bucko. Get ready for a ride.
Essentially, my personal position is that of Open Theism. To ask yourself if it is a “damnable heresy”, you must first ask yourself what is orthodoxy? What constitutes heresy?
I, as an Anglican, find my “essentials” theology within the Nicene-Constantinople creed. Open theism does not fall outside of the bounds of the Nicene creed, and therefore would not be considered heresy in any sense of the word.
Now, it may be outside of the traditional view of God’s foreknowledge and Providence, but that would only make it a heterodox view of God.
I can argue scripture, philosophy, and theology all day long on this topic.
Philip Williams
So you think that God is himself subject to Time?
Tyler Lee Price
Philip Williams
No, I think God created time in such a way that he can’t know the future.
Time and eternity, at this point, coexist without surpassing one another temporally, therefore, God cannot be subject to the future because the future does not exist.
What does not exist cannot by nature be known.
Philip Williams
Tyler Lee Price
And so thought Charles Hartshorne, the father of Open Theism, which he called Process Theology.
I pointed out to him that the wavelength of the photon emitted by an electron is determined by its final state. It’s future state is impacting the present world.
So we deny of God even knowledge existing in the material world?
Tyler Lee Price
Philip Williams
That’s a logical fallacy. The final state of something that has not reached its final state cannot affect the present world.
I think the future doesn’t exist and therefore cannot be known by God.
I think prophecy is general in some ways. A lot of OT prophecy is based on contingency. “I will destroy your city if you do not do X”. Moses pleaded with God and changed God’s mind multiple times. God’s wrath was curbed a few times.
I think that prophecy is based on general things. For instance, God may not know WHEN something will happen, but he might know under what conditions he will bring something about.
Philip Williams
Tyler Lee Price
Not a logical fallacy but an empirical fact. Quantum physics upon whose principles are used in constructing that device you are using depends on this fact.
Unless you wish to twist the facts to conform to your dogma. Any third-rate mind can do something like that.
So you deny God’s sovereignty? I don’t refer to a God determining everything, but definitely one who knows everything concerning his own plans and family.
Tyler Lee Price
Philip Williams
I think God knows his own plans and his plans concerning his family, but I think he only knows in contingencies or “counterfactuals”
Essentially, my personal belief is a mixture of middle knowledge and open theism.
Philip Williams
Tyler Lee Price
God the Father? Or God the Son?
Tyler Lee Price
Philip Williams yes
Philip Williams
Tyler Lee Price
Which does/ doesn’t know what?
Tyler Lee Price
Philip Williams
God the Father does not know the future but can see the future in counterfactuals. God the Son is limited to the present in terms of foreknowledge.
Philip Williams
Tyler Lee Price
Oh my! So we can’t rely on those prophecies inspired by the Spirit of Christ in the prophets.
A God who lacks omniscience. Not as big a God as I thought.
Tyler Lee Price
I think half the “prophecies” offered in Charismatic circles are a little on the fleshly side, so I don’t think that most of them are reliable. There are /some/ but I don’t think it’s as common as Charismatics/Pentecostals say it is.
He’s still omniscient, I’m just saying that he can’t know what can’t be known because of the nature of that which is unknowable.
RichardAnna Boyce
Philip Williams, APOSTASY
1 Tim 1:19-20 ‘having faith and a good conscience, which some having rejected, concerning the faith have suffered shipwreck, 20 of whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I delivered to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme.’
They had faith and good consciences, but both lost their faith, rejected and shipwrecked.
They had been regenerated, shown evidence of faith and conscience, but blasphemed, and needed to be taught (gr paideuo) as regenerates in 1 Cor 11:32; Titus 2:12-13; Heb 12:5-6.
The only other Christian handed over to Satan was 1 Cor 5:1-5 so he’ll stay saved eternally.
They are all carnal Christians who have denied their faith, and lost rewards at the Judgement Seat of Christ , but their spirit is eternally saved.
2 Tim 2:17-19 ‘And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, 18 who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ[a] depart from iniquity.”
The same Hymenaeus had destroyed others faith.
‘The Lord knows who are His’ refers to Num 16:5 means God knows who are His leaders are, not God knows who are regenerate Christians. God knows H and A are appointed regenerate leaders who have committed apostasy against His appointed leader Paul.
Apostasy in Hebrews 10:38-39 ‘Now the just shall live by faith; But if anyone draws back,
My soul has no pleasure in him.”
39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.
‘Preserving of the soul’ means maintain physical life, never going to heaven when you die.
Heb 10:26-38 refers to a Carnal Christian ‘righteous one’ (having the righteousness of Christ) ruining his physical life and if he loses his faith then God will be angry with him at the Judgement Seat of Christ, taking his rewards away and not being co-heir with Christ, but going to heaven as a child of God.
Apostasy in Galatians 6:12 ‘As many as desire to make a good showing in the flesh, these would compel you to be circumcised, only that they may not suffer persecution for the cross of Christ.’
They had severed himself from Christ (5:2) fallen from grace (5:4) and were liable for judgement by forfeiting their share of rewards in the coming kingdom (5:10).
2 John 8. ‘Look to yourselves, that we do not lose those things we worked for, but that we may receive a full reward.’
Apostasy in the Last Days in 1 Tim 4:1-3 ‘Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.’
They are regenerate Christians who are contrasted with liars with a seared conscience (V2), the latter non Christians leading these believers away into apostasy.
Denial of the Faith of Christians in 1 Tim 5:8, and apostasy of widows who turn away from the Christian life in 1 Tim 5:14-15
1 Tim 6:21 Timothy, a Christian, is being warned against the possibility of apostasy.
Apostasy of Demas and others.
Philemon 24 Demas was a fellow worker with Paul and Luke in Col 4:14 but deserted the imprisoned Paul and ‘loved this present world’ (2 Tim 4:10)
2 Tim 2:24-26 refers to those in opposition needing to repent ‘leading to knowledge of the truth’ and parallel usage in Tit 1:1 refers to the knowledge of Christians to lead Godly lives.
1 Tim 3:7 parallel passage about being ensnared by the devil clearly refers to believers.
2 Tim 2:24-28 Regenerate believers have fallen from the faith and are opponents of Paul.
The Free Grace partner’s belief is that the combined weight of the warning passages,
the passages illustrating the fact of the carnal Christian,
and the specific biblical illustrations of apostasy,
firmly establish the possible existence of the permanently carnal Christian
who is living a lifestyle of sin or has lost his faith.
After careful examination of the biblical data, the only reason for believing this is not true, that carnal Christians can’t exist, is ‘my denomination believes something different.’
Scripture doesn’t prove that those who believe will keep their faith to the final hour.
Scripture guarantees that God’s faithfulness is independent of man’s faith.
‘If we are faithless, God will remain faithful.’
The sense of moral revulsion that God would allow a sinning Christian to enter heaven, betrays a lack of appreciation of grace in our lives, and the motive behind Lordship Salvation exegesis.
Philip Williams
RichardAnna Boyce
I don’t intend to read your reactive boilerplate. If Troy Day wishes to allow you to do that so as to drive people from his forum, he has a right to do that. But unless you can make your point in the few words of someone who has a grasp of the issues, I will not be reading your blab.
Varnel Watson
Philip Williams what is APOSTASY?
Philip Williams
Troy Day rebelling against Jesus by those who have known him.
Varnel Watson
Philip Williams Jews or open theists?
Philip Williams
unbelieving Jews definitely in rebellion. Also many Pentecostal preachers.
Larry
I’m afraid some will pull back from their faith just from the confusion generated by these contentious remarks!! I know this site is just for biblical “experts” and I don’t belong. So don’t bother attacking my ignorance, I’m out!!
Joe Absher
A really ridiculous meme.
Varnel Watson
I may have to agree with that
Steve Losee
that’s the way they were heading…and Scripture doesn’t say GOD said that; it says Jonah (the one with the bad attitude) said it.
Ricky Grimsley
People who believe God has exhaustive foreknowledge but still believe in free-will just haven’t thought it through yet.
Philip Williams
Ricky Grimsley I discussed this more than 40 years ago with the creator of open theism. I see no problem with freewill and exhaustive foreknowledge. God the Father exists above and beyond any kind of Time, all part of his own creation.
Ricky Grimsley
Philip Williams You see no problem with it because you are still stuck in the delusion. “Oh I’m sorry little girl that you were born to the pedophile…….I knew that was gonna happen before I created the world but I did nothing to change it and it was impossible to change from the moment o decided to create”
Ricky Grimsley
Oh wait. There can’t be a moment before God decided to create#iwin
Philip Williams
Ricky Grimsley
You are equating your tiny, tiny little mind with the Creator of Heaven and earth. If ever a better example of arrogance, I cannot imagine.
Ricky Grimsley
Philip Williams it’s not arrogance. It’s just common sense. Even my tiny mind can let the Bible say what it says. Your too bound by tradition to even refute it with scripture
Philip Williams
Ricky Grimsley
“Jesus replied, “What is impossible with man is possible with God.””
Luke 18:27
Philip Williams
Ricky Grimsley
Has anyone ever held a too great view of God?
Philip Williams
Ricky Grimsley
How did God foreknow?
“For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.” Romans 8:29
Philip Williams
How did he predestine us before the beginning of time?
“For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—”
Ephesians 1:4-5
Ricky Grimsley
Philip Williams it means all logical things are possible with god. Not everything is possible with god though. Hebrews 6:18 KJVS
[18] That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:
https://tbibl.es/8uot
Ricky Grimsley
Philip Williams the great view is the true view
Ricky Grimsley
Philip Williams this also implies though that there are though that he does not foreknow. Because “those god foreknew”
Philip Williams
Ricky Grimsley
What is illogical about God transcending Time?
Philip Williams
Ricky Grimsley the reasoning that you use pertains to classical mechanical thought. But it’s also inadequate for the physical world, as in the case of backward causation. How much less God’s ways and world! Your little view of God is manifestly not a great view.
Philip Williams
“this also implies though that there are though that he does not foreknow. Because “those god foreknew”
Scratch head. ?
LeeLee Hall
Choose this day ( we choose ) that does Not stop God’s ability to provide A Spotless Lamb one that He Knew we would need from the foundations of the world ..
His ways are so much higher!
Revelation 13:8 “the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
The Father and The Son being one even so The Son has no knowledge of the the day or the hour , this does not mean that ability to know the future doesn’t exist , God may choose to for example ” throw our sins into The Sea Of Forgetfulness” …. God is also All Powerful Omnipotent… He has no limits . We are the ones with limits not Him.
LeeLee Hall
Ricky Grimsley ” All Things ” not everything …. All things are possible .
Matthew 19:26
“Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
Varnel Watson
I dont see how neither of you could be right
Ricky Grimsley
Philip Williams because that concept is irrelevant. The future doesn’t exist so he doesn’t step outside time and look at it. The past already happened so he can’t change that.
Ricky Grimsley
Philip Williams I meant the fact that there are those he foreknew implies that there are those he didn’t foreknow
Philip Williams
Ricky Grimsley He who is both beginning and the end most certainly exists,
Philip Williams
Ricky Grimsley Many years ago I wrote to Hartshorne, father of your dogma, God isn’t interested in unclean garbage dumps, lottery results, or the details of evil doing, But he does know everything about which he cares. If he knows some things and some not yet born, he certainly knows the future.
LeeLee Hall
Our God is omniscient , Alpha and Omega , The Beginning And The End !
Varnel Watson
I don think much
Philip Williams
“I don think much”
So, I have noticed.
Varnel Watson
Philip Williams isnt that precisely the thing with open theism?
Davidking Manelli
We are pray
Varnel Watson
the truth is out there Ricky Grimsley may know it
Chukwu Amarachi Marcus
I am an open theist
Uchechi Daniel
Chukwu Amarachi Marcus congratulations to you sir.
Carlos Sotelo
How unfortunate, I hope and pray you repent of believing in such a false theology.
Johnathon Morris
Yes, so they would repent.
Arthur Adam Haglund
Johnathon Morris the question of the OP simple. Did God lie
Varnel Watson
Arthur Adam Haglund well not intended that
Johnathon Morris
Arthur Adam Haglund false question
Arthur Adam Haglund
Johnathon Morris No, it is not.
If you agree with the OP, then you believe that God lied. Well unless you give a deeper explanation.
But since Open Theism claims that God does not know, CAN NOT KNOW, the free will choices of any creature, Then God’s absolute declarations about future things are only hunches, guesses and so on.
Johan did not want to give the proclamation against Ninevah, as is stated, because he knew that God is a forgiving God and that he would forgive and relent if Ninevah repented, turning from their sin.
Jeremiah 18:1-10 covers this, as does Ezekiel, chapters 18 and 33.
the Open theist cannot have his cake and eat it too.
He cannot have God cannot know, and God making absolute declarations, prophetic words of truth about the free will of any man or nation.
Johnathon Morris
Arthur Adam Haglund incorrect, it is impossible for God to lie. It is a false question because you seek to question God, whom you also claim doesn’t exist. So which is it? A fool would only question something he doesn’t believe in, and a fool says within his heart, “there is no God.” Does a loving parent not warn us so that we may turn to Him? Only a fool would question and test God, whom promises His wrath abides on you for your sin against Him. God is not mocked, He will have the final say. Go to Him through Jesus for mercy and grace, or receive judgement for your iniquities. Whatever you choose, there will be consequences for your actions and questioning of foolishness.
Arthur Adam Haglund
Johnathon Morris I agree that God cannot lie. That fact does not change another fact, that being that Open Theism calls God a liar by claiming two polar and mutually exclusive opposites at the same time.
Perhaps an example is in order.
God proclaims that one army will attack. Since he does not know the decisions (IN Open Theism), such a prophecy could be a lie, since he is declaring something he is not controlling, actively bringing to pass. Thus, the other army may very well NOT attack.
Open Theism states these two things:
1. God knows everything, exhaustively, all the things he controls.
2. Since man has free will and is not controlled by God, Goda cannot know the future actions, thoughts of mankind
The error lies in one or both of those. It is axiomatic that God knows what he will do and since he does it, it is under his control.
With that being said, the error must fall under the second claim, and here there are two possibilities, God does control mankind and there is no free will or that there is free will, God not controlling mankind, yet God still knows what men will do.
You wrote, “It is a false question because you seek to question God, whom you also claim doesn’t exist.”
Unless I made a typo, had a palm check on my touchpad (or otherwise had my cursor placed in a wrong place and typed without noticing it), you cannot find that I have claimed that God does not exist. I suppose that it is possible that my brain got adled and I wrot the word not when I did not intend to, which would make your claim technically true, but true due my error.
I affirm there is A god, that such god is THE God of the Bible.
Johnathon Morris
Arthur Adam Haglund incorrect. God forbid having any personal interpretation on His Word. Unless you are saved by Jesus Christ, you will be blind to the truth because of you sin. Does the pot question the potter or the potter’s will? Clearly not. Trust in Christ. Reas His Word how He says His Will is done.
Arthur Adam Haglund
Johnathon Morris, “Unless you are saved by Jesus Christ, you will be blind to the truth because of you sin”
Unbiblical
“Does the pot question the potter or the potter’s will? Clearly not.”
This shows a lack of understanding on your part, I am guessing that you hold to Calvinism.
Do you, better asked, CAN you, and if you can, WILL you explain YOUR thinking, YOUR understanding of WHY that section is in Romans9 and what it really means.
Johnathon Morris
Arthur Adam Haglund no I am not a calvinist, I am a biblical Christian. Go back and read the book of Roman’s. God made Himself known to you, even the nature of the Godhead that you have no excuse. God gave you up to your sin. All those that deny Him do so because of unrighteousness. Will will not enter heaven until you are saved by Jesus Christ. You are blind to the truth until you are saved. Jesus Christ is the truth. You may not pick and choose what to believe in scripture. It is not merely literature. It is the Word of God, and it doesn’t change according to our feelings and beliefs, but it is the standard of which we ought to believe. We must trust in Christ to be saved. The fear of God is the beginning of knowledge, wisdom, and understanding. The only way to the father is through Christ.
Arthur Adam Haglund
Johnathon Morris “Does the pot question the potter or the potter’s will? Clearly not.”
This shows a lack of understanding on your part, I am guessing that you hold to Calvinism.
Do you, better asked, CAN you, and if you can, WILL you explain YOUR thinking, YOUR understanding of WHY that section is in Romans9 and what it really means.
Arthur Adam Haglund
“I am not a calvinist, I am a biblical Christian.”+Calvinistic interpretation= Calvinist.
Johnathon Morris
Arthur Adam Haglund that shalt not question the LORD YOUR GOD.
Johnathon Morris
Incorrect. My standard of truth is the Bible.
Arthur Adam Haglund
Do you know what section of scripture Paul refers to when he speaks of the Potter and the Clay?
Johnathon Morris
Irrelevant. The Bible changes not for any person. Nor is God a respecter of persons. We must trust in Christ to get to heaven. Unless we are saved we will perish. We are blind in our sin until we put our trust in Christ.
Arthur Adam Haglund
Johnathon Morris You just aid that the passage that Paul cites is irrelevant.
Sorry, but you just showed a sinful, yes, SIN, in your practice of biblical study and teaching!
You just said that the example given, to help them understand, has zero importance to the message he used the example to illustrate.
Well, it is of the utmost importance and without understanding his reference, you cannot understand his current teaching.
I will now instruct you.
Jeremiah is the section of reference. And the reason that they cannot complain against the potter is because they put themselves in the position to be formed as they are and, thus, rightly receive the consequences.
The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying, “Arise, and go down to the potter’s house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words.”
Then I went down to the potter’s house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels. And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, “O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter?” Saith the LORD, “Behold, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel. At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it? If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it? If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.”
There two unmentioned pots as well. But they do not need to be mentioned for they did not have marred clay. they neither repented of Evil nor good.
So, In Romans 9, when Paul says to them that they will say, “How can God find fault in us, HE MADE US THIS WAY!”, Paul is rebuking such a thought. The Potter was not forming their actions, but the end consequence of their actions. Paul is telling them that God had NOTHING to do with what they did, but DOES bring righteous punishment!
ANY OTHER reading, especially one that pretends that this teaches that God causes them to commit their sin (potter forming clay) and then judging them for HIS doings is Satanic doctrine!
Johnathon Morris
Arthur Adam Haglund incorrect.
Arthur Adam Haglund
Not only am I NOT incorrect, YOU cannot show error in it!
Go to the Old Testament and search for every occurance of the word, POTTER. No other passage CAN possibly be the reference of Paul, and God, himself, gives the teaching. So, you are saying that GOD IS WRONG!
Arthur Adam Haglund
Which is typical for the Verse Theology of the Calvinist, which you are.
Johnathon Morris
Sure I can. The pot cannot question the potter. Go to any pot and watch them mold the pot to there will, and you will never see the pot question the potter. But when the pot moves against the potter, the potter corrects the pot, or starts afresh. If the clay is not yet ready for the potter to mold, it is rejected, and yet when the clay is ready the potter molds the clay to the pot of His desire.
I have already testified that all scripture is true, I also testify that it is the standard of truth. As the pot does not question the potter, we shall not test the Lord our God. Look to job.
My memorizing certain verses does not change the nature and characteristics of truth, nor is God’s nature or characteristics changed. No man goes to the Father but through Jesus Christ. Is is by faith in Jesus Christ that we are saved not by our works lest any man should boast.
Arthur Adam Haglund
Johnathon Morris IF the pot could not, the question of condemning the pot doing it cannot exist.
The mar in the clay, and GOD HIMSELF EXPLAINS HIMSELF is repentance of the nation. The Clay is NOT cooperating with being formed unto either destruction or blessing, this is reformed according to its current national manner, either righteousness or sinfulness.
WHO ARE YOU; O MAN is not saying there is no abulity to question God, but that doing so is wrong, for it accuses God of unrighteousness, when God is righteously making the Pot according to the characteristic of the clay. Notice that God does not fit a sinful nation for blessing, nor a righteous nation for destruction.
Johnathon Morris
You cannot claim truthfully that I am a calvinist, because I do not testify calvinism. I testify that Jesus Christ Alone is the Lord, not John Calvin. Any who lean to the left or right, to armenianism or calvinism do error in their desire of doctrines of men. God is indeed sovereign, and yet in His sovereignty we have freewill, but our freewill does not change the justice of God, or His nature, but it is in His nature to give us mercy and grace, only by His means and not our desires. That is through Jesus Christ alone, and not our works. No man is free to fly like a bird by flapping his arms, nor is any man free to be God Himself, and yet we are free to love each other as ourselves as God commanded, free to obey and disobey His commandments, and free to love Him with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength. Though we have this limited freedom, we are not free of the consequences of our sin. And so we must choose to trust wholly unto Christ, or reject Him, of which both have detrimental consequences.
Johnathon Morris
Arthur Adam Haglund incorrect again. If we live in sin we are condemned already, but we only receive forgiveness of sins if we live in Christ.
Arthur Adam Haglund
“The pot cannot question the potter. Go to any pot and watch them mold the pot to there will, and you will never see the pot question the potter. But when the pot moves against the potter, the potter corrects the pot, or starts afresh. If the clay is not yet ready for the potter to mold, it is rejected, and yet when the clay is ready the potter molds the clay to the pot of His desire.”
Fully contrary to scripture and you cannot quote scripture and show parallel of rightly divided scripture to support this!
Johnathon Morris
Gods Word is the standard of truth. What I say when my statements are true does not contradict scripture, because scripture itself is my standard. You cannot get to heaven by your good works. There is none good but God. Until you put you trust in Christ you will not receive the truth, though you know the truth, if your trusting in your works to save you, the truth will escape you as your conscience bares witness to your sins.
Bob McKay
Doesn’t open Theology destroy God’s. Pure foreknowledge???
Bob McKay
There are contingent proclamations….
Varnel Watson
what do you mean by that?
Bob McKay
Troy Day God eventually did judge Ninevah ?
Varnel Watson
Bob McKay oh OK you are commenting on the thumb but did not read the actual article No problem there
Chukwu Amarachi Marcus
God knows what he want to do, what you are thinking , what you thought. God doesn’t know before hand those things. God knew it as you are thinking of it. That is why he was recorded as one who regretted in Genesis 6
Arthur Adam Haglund
Chukwu Amarachi Marcus WRONG
Varnel Watson
I’d say it is now Isara Mo Steve Losee
Steve Losee
I’m having a hard time keeping up with the labels. I’m a Biblical Inerrantist. If Scripture teaches it, it’s so. I believe God means what He says when He says it, even when He knows things will change in such a way to cause a change in His actions to remain consistent with His character.
Varnel Watson
Steve Losee you may be open theist then
Steve Losee
I’ve been called worse.
Varnel Watson
Steve Losee its not a calling but a question Just clarifying with a question in order to provide an answer
Olivaire Watler
Isaiah 46:10 NLT
“Only I can tell you the future before it even happens. Everything I plan will come to pass, for I do whatever I wish.”
Carlos Sotelo
Open theism is of satan. That is all.
Varnel Watson
some BIBLE to support such claim pls?
Philip Williams
Open Theism has a non-transcendent God just like the pagan gods. Of course it’s heretical.
Varnel Watson
I am not sure how do you see this as it applies in the case of free grace preached by RichardAnna Boyce
Adam Daniel Broughton
Yes. God is proactive, not reactive. Try to surprise God and tell me if you think it worked.
Varnel Watson
was God surprised by what you just said?
Adam Daniel Broughton
Troy Day never is
Karl Ernst Von Buddenbrock
Why do we need to make God more appealing to our society? We should make our society appeal to God for mercy.
Varnel Watson
do you feel open theism does all that ?
Karl Ernst Von Buddenbrock
It’s so funny seeing talk of DYNAMIC nature of God’s will, and the PANDERING to human whim. The old reformers knew best. We’re in a desperate sinful state and unless we turn to God the dynamism gets real hot. Better just to present the gospel, plain and simple.
Varnel Watson
Karl Ernst Von Buddenbrock what about relational theology ?
Karl Ernst Von Buddenbrock
Another new hip and happening term. Here’s the relation. We sin and are deserving of God’s wrath. We throw ourselves on His mercy. He forgives us. We live in the fading kingdom and look forward to the advancing one.
Karl Ernst Von Buddenbrock
Reprehensible theology.
Varnel Watson
Philip Williams I suspect open theism is about as dangerous and heretical as free grace by RichardAnna Boyce
Johnathon Morris
Thall shalt NOT test the Lord your God! Go back and read about Job.
Arthur Adam Haglund
Johnathon Morris I am NOT wrong, and not wrong, again. You are jeaving Romans 9 and the refernce OF Romans 9 to wrongfully inject portions of scripture that are neither of those contexts.
Paul speaks
Paul makes a reference while speaking.
You cannot know his meaning without the reference
You avoid the reference and go elsewhere.
This is dishonest study.
Arthur Adam Haglund
Johnathon Morris Again, not touching the passage of Romans, nor the reference IN romans, thus dishonest.
Arthur Adam Haglund
Johnathon Morris Scripture is not your standard. your Calvinistic interpretation which you learned outside ot the Bible and not from pure Bible study, is your standard.
Johnathon Morris
Arthur Adam Haglund incorrect.
Arthur Adam Haglund
Johnathon Morris See, taht is not how iit works. You have not shown that Paul does not refer to Jeremiah 18, but to another passage.
You have only said, incorrect
You have not countered the point that when reference is made, it has the purpose of exposition and expounding what is being said and this causes the need to understand the reference..
Saying and repeating, “Incorrect” only shows that you cannot do those things I just listed. Your ineptitude and impotence lead you to simple contradiction without basis.
Johnathon Morris
Arthur Adam Haglund if my words are not true, then why do you seek to disobey God by striving against me? But if my words are true when what do you have against me? Calvinism and Armenianism are both heresies alike. God’s Word speaks of freewill and God’s Sovereignty. Scripture is clear and is the standard of truth, morality, and behavior. Any deviation to the left or right is sin. The only acceptable interpretation of scripture is it’s own interpretation. The word I speak are made manifest from scripture, though my words are imperfect, it does not take away from the perfection of scripture. Therefore seek to be corrected by scripture and not doctrines of men, nor desire to please men, or yourself by agreeing to doctrines of men or anything, but agree in the Holy Spirit. God made Himself known to everyone that He exists, that they are without excuse for the sin against the God they know exist. They don’t deny Him because they don’t believe in Him, but they come up with excuses and lies that will permit them from sin. God does not force them away from sin, but He gives then up to their desires, that they be blind to there sin.
Johnathon Morris
Arthur Adam Haglund didnt even see it, you’ve ignored the truth and didnt even know it. Anything that is contrary to the truth is incorrect and everything that is false must be claimed so. If I were to say otherwise I myself would be lying, but I dare not say scripture is a lie and what I say comports and agrees with scripture. Read your Bible and see. Instead of fitting his Word to our prebeliefs, all of our beliefs must be changed to His Word. Assumptions, beliefs, feelings, thoughts, are not truth, but truth is God’s Word.
Johnathon Morris
Arthur Adam Haglund you do not get to decide what is true or false, truth comports to the standard of truth, scripture. I don’t have to give verses for my statements to be true, nor am I obligated to repeat verses to you, but we are to show OURSELVES approved unto the Lord. We are to workout OUR OWN salvation before the Lord. His Word is good for reproof, edification, and correction. He didnt day for some things or things we choose, it is meant to be without exception. God did not give exception to this rule. So go and be corrected by all scripture. Including proverbs, Roman’s, and 2 john.
Arthur Adam Haglund
Johnathon Morris Sorry, If you are wrong, striving against YOU as you say is a sin?
LMBO
And, the totality of your comments can be summed up in this.
“I have my view, you are entitled to it and if you reject it, which happens to be the Calvinistic view that I hold, you are against God. By the Way, I will not address anything you say, because I do not have to. You just must accept that you are wrong and believe me.”
Not your words, but it is your message and stance.
So, once again, you refuse to deal with the Potter and God’s explaining his messge to the prophet who recorded it. Since you do so, your view of Romans 9 is null and void.
One cannot reject the message then proclaim its meaning, which is your method.
Johnathon Morris
Arthur Adam Haglund that is not correct. You make a claim of me without evidence and without a witness. I am not a calvinist, I even proclaim it to be heresy, you don’t have to agree, but you have no basis to say your statement is true, especially because it isnt.
Arthur Adam Haglund
Johnathon Morris Well, stop holding to it.
Johnathon Morris
Arthur Adam Haglund you have made a false assumption. Your assuming I am holding on to calvinism falsely. If you seek to argue against calvinism I will agree with you, but you judgement of my appearance is sin. I am not a calvinist. Perhaps it would be wise to judge righteously, than to judge by appearance, even according to your false assumptions. Even so you are not permitted to hate calvinist but are commanded to preach the gospel to them also out of love and kindness. And you have not done that here.
Arthur Adam Haglund
OK, done with this and you.
You refuse to engage with the text and the reference, So, error away. I am disinterested in your subeterfuge
Arthur Adam Haglund
I am rebuking you for pretending thatyou can read my heart. god reserves this power for himself. Here is a news flash, you are not God.
Johnathon Morris
You are not the standard of which I ought to agree, God’s Word is.
Johnathon Morris
God says in His Word what is in our hearts, our hearts are deceitfully wicked, who can know it?
Varnel Watson
WELL now none of this really makes any good theological sense What does it ALL mean to us?
Glory Kramlich
Let’s see: heretical against whose theology? Self appointed critic of believers? Ok, but one person’s question here. I believe in God in the Blessed Trinity, no heresy. Lots of statements doubting, ok. Statements are ALL they are.
Varnel Watson
BOTTOM LINE on this one Philip Williams It is now shown to be true that OPEN theism of God who dont know ALL and free grace as preached by RichardAnna Boyce come from the same heretical school of frontology and as such should be considered BOTH heretical #noughSaid http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/is-joseph-prince-free-grace/
Philip Williams
These “free grace” preachers are the Nicolatians of our day. They use the grace of God as a license to sin.
Chris Westerman
There are free grace preachers who preach against sin.
Chris Westerman
Please give us a name of a free grace preacher who uses it as a license to sin and tell us what his sins are. If you make a claim you should be able to back it up.
Philip Williams
Chris Westerman Joseph Prince and RichardAnna Boyce
Chris Westerman
Philip Williams What sins does Joseph Prince commit with his license?
Philip Williams
Chris Westerman I refer to his teachings.
Chris Westerman
Philip Williams You said he uses his preaching of free grace as a license to sin. What sins is he commiting? I think it would be wise just to say you disagree with his teaching on grace and not say he uses free grace as a license to commit sin.
Philip Williams
Chris Westerman Does Joseph Prince teach the need for repentance?
Varnel Watson
Philip Williams this is the key difference – Calvin also cares little about repentance RichardAnna Boyce has rejected repentance as being unBiblical though it’s in MY Bible
Philip Williams
Troy Day without repentance we have the grace of God being used as a license to sin.
Varnel Watson
Philip Williams they are all fathered by the same father
Philip Williams
The error of open theism is they don’t recognize that it is Jesus, Israel’s Heavenly Messiah who lives in God the Father, who is making these decisions such as the Flood Nineveh, Sodom, and Nineveh which the Open Theists claim shows that God doesn’t transcend time. The Father in whom the Christ lives, does transcend time and knows the everything about the future as well as the past. Through him, Christ will bring all Creation under subjection to the Father so God can be all in all.
Anonymous
pretty much Duane L Burgess Kyle Williams John Mushenhouse Ricky Grimsley
Anonymous
Troy Day yes
Anonymous
Absolutely, yes, and it is the logical consequence of the Arminian perspective, which is man centered.
Anonymous
do you agree with this stance Ricky Grimsley Link Hudson Kyle Williams
Anonymous
Troy Day Duane is Correct. A consistent Arminian is an open theist and an open theist is heretical.
Anonymous
Kyle Williams WRONG-
Anonymous
Determinism and Open Thiesm hold an identical view of God’s attributes but a different view of how time works.
Determinism sees the future as fixed and inflexible.
Open Theism sees the future as having actual possibilities.
Both views see God as Sovereign, Omnipotent, Omniscient, and Omnipresent.
In determinism, man has no free will, but neither does God, as the future is fixed and inflexible. In determinism, nothing is possible because everything is unalterably predetermined.
Only in Open Theism is “nothing impossible with God” and “nothing impossible to him who believes.” Only in Open Theism can God truly “work all things together for good” in real time. Only on Open Theism is God actually “a present help on thime of trouble.”
Anonymous
Open Theism, as I understand it, affirms God’s sovereignty, omniscience, omnipotence, and omnipresence. It differs from Determinism not in its view of God’s attributes but in its conception of how time works. Is the future fixed and inflexible, or do real possibilities exist?
If the future is fixed and inflexible then God is not presently working all things to our good, all things are unalterably set in stone. All things are not possible by faith, nothing is possible at all!
Only in Open Theism could it be true that God is actually a present help in time of trouble. Only in Open Theism can a soul come before the throne of grace and obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.
Anonymous
Ricky Grimsley upholds this this Kyle Williams Duane L Burgess but I DO NOT
Anonymous
Troy Day everyone tag your friends because I’m about to drop some facts.
The only difference between Calvinism and Arminianism is if God makes it happen or if he knows it will happen and does nothing from before the world began. Molinism is nonsense. If you God exhaustively knows the future the free will is a lie because he would have created the world with all the events already set in stone. It’s not rocket science. Open-theism and Calvinism are the only two viable options and the Bible has way too many “perhaps” “choose” and “now I know” or “then I will know” phrases for me to be believe Calvinism.
Anonymous
Ricky Grimsley you ? drop facts ? tribulation started yet? 🙂
Anonymous
Troy Day could be soon. However if you pray you can hasten the day of the lord. Another clue to open theism.
Anonymous
Ricky Grimsley I wish you finally drop some verses here so I can demolish your fake theology
Anonymous
Ricky Grimsley NO NOT really – your comments are right here waiting for the facts to DROP but Kyle Williams Philip Williams James Philemon Bowers Duane L Burgess Brett Dobbs had not much good to say about it…
Anonymous
Ricky Grimsley God has ordained me to disagree with you.
Anonymous
Brett Dobbs God has ordained Ricky Grimsley to disagree with you BUT then he changed his mind in some uncertain ways
Anonymous
Ricky Grimsley James Philemon Bowers When we speak of God not changing we are speaking of his nature. Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever (Heb. 13:8). Theologically, this is called God’s immutability (Num. 23:19; 1 Sam. 15:29; Isa. 46:9-11; Ezek. 24:14). God is immutable in his essence, attributes, and counsels (or plans). As James P. Boyce states, “By the immutability of God is meant that he is incapable of change, either in duration of life, or in nature, character, will or happiness.” However, this does not mean that God never changes his mind (Jer. 18).
2 Kings chapter 20 actually speaks of Hezekiah changing his mind when approached by God through prophet Isaiah, son of Amoz. Moreover, it reveals that God’s eternal plan is unchangeable.
Anonymous
Open Theism is the logical consequence of Arminian theology and is complete apostasy.
Anonymous
Duane L Burgess Open Theism is NOT consequence of Arminian theology in any given way John Mushenhouse can prove this wrong if heD like to
Anonymous
Link Hudson do you feel Open Theism is the logical consequence of Arminian theology or OSAS? I think OSAS and their pelagian heresy makes a good choice here
Anonymous
Troy Day I don’t know. Some people are Molinists. I’m okay with there being a bit of mysticism.
On the larger topic of determinism, apparently some things are predestined (e.g. Christ’s sacrifice) but the idea that everything is predestined seems inconsistent with certain scripture (e.g. Israel burning their children to Baal or God changing decrees on nations that repented as described in Jeremiah).
Anonymous
Link Hudson Montanism in this equation too big time STILL just another modern Western teaching created in the 80-90s James Philemon Bowers
Anonymous
Duane L Burgess Ro 16:17 / Pr 26:4
Anonymous
RT James Philemon Bowers
Troy Day, funny isn’t it, so many talk like Calvinists but behave like Open Theists when they pray.
IT IS Funny you say this since there are many in this group who were Pentecostal @ one time but now moved to reformed post-Calvinism Tell you the truth the ONLY funnier thing is Pentecostals acting like reformed OR dispensational Baptists Oscar Valdez may have the scoop on this one having followed DTS to the fullest … https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/God-Changing-His-Mind
Anonymous
Troy Day I’m very pleased with my Wesleyan arminianism pentecostal theology, pretrib, moderate progressive DISP.
Anonymous
Oscar Valdez progressive DISP was NEVER believed by NO early Pentecostal – cite 1 or 2 to disprove; it was created by baptists @ DTS
Anonymous
Progressive fits better our eschatology than amill or postmill
Anonymous
Oscar Valdez According to Bock, progressive dispensationalism is “less land-centered and less future-centered and more kingdom-now oriented” (Christianity Today, March 9, 1992, 50). Progressive dispensationalists, like Blaising and Bock, argue for one new covenant with an ongoing partial fulfillment and a future complete fulfillment for Israel. Progressives hold that the new covenant was inaugurated by Christ at the Last Supper. Progressives hold that while there are aspects of the new covenant currently being fulfilled, there is yet to be a final and complete fulfillment of the new covenant in the future. This concept is sometimes referred to as an “already-but-not-yet” fulfillment. As such Progressive dispensationalists are closer to the Reformed Baptist Tradition (BPT) of DTS than Pentecostal eschatology
Media: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1873971569654456&set=p.1873971569654456&type=3
Anonymous
Troy Day Many pentecostal theologians are now on the “already-but-not-yet” position about the Kingdom (not the Kingdom now theology of the prosperity gospel) but a Kingdom theology of holistic salvation.
Anonymous
Oscar Valdez alreadyBUTnotYET is a purely PENTECOSTAL not kingdom-now position YouD be out of your mind if you claim already but not yet has emerged anyWhere else; pls re-read LAND passion for the kingdom BTW in my HumbOpp you are getting ridiculous in all these empty attempts to prove Pentecostal Dispensation – The Spirit works in ALL ages not just 1 disp like reformed Duane L Burgess claim Come on John Mushenhouse
Anonymous
SUCH a SIMPLE BIBLICAL TRUTH Ricky Grimsley 1 Samuel 15:29
Also the Glory of Israel will not lie or change His mind; for He is not a man that He should change His mind.”
Kyle Williams Duane L Burgess John Mushenhouse Philip Williams Michael Chauncey
Anonymous
Troy Day either the effectual prayer of a righteous man avails much. Or it doesn’t do anything. You choose. I don’t have the time to explain every possible scripture to you but I would defined say that God doesn’t change his mind like a man he changes his mind like a God.
Anonymous
Ricky Grimsley yes OK but then again James Philemon Bowers said there was 2 Kings 20:5-6 – I do not believed GOD changed there or that HE changes by prayer – imagine this: GOD would you please stop being GOD – it is a ridiculous humanistic view on prayer Kyle Williams Duane L Burgess
Anonymous
Troy Day you’re right on. Prayer is all about conforming us to God’s will, not us bending God’s will.
Anonymous
Kyle Williams, so, then, don’t waste time “making your requests known to God,” as Paul instructed, just pray you can conform to what God has already decided God will do. It was all settled before you even prayed. In fact, don’t bother praying at all, just declare that God knows what God will do and will do it at the appropriate time. Then, go through Scripture and reject what Scripture clearly says over and over — that God heard the cry of his people and acted (starting with Israel in Egypt) — and note that God did nothing of the kind but simply did what his will was regardless of the prayers of the Israelites. The problem with your view is it is built on a static understanding of God’s will which has no room for the dynamics of relationships and, therefore, reduces human beings to nothing more than pawns in a divinely orchestrated game. It is, at the end of the day, incipient Calvinism or worse. There is no dignity, freedom (by grace or otherwise), or significance for human beings in God’s universe or plans.
Anonymous
James Philemon Bowers Jesus prayed this way… “nevertheless not my will but thine” “thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven”
Anonymous
James Philemon Bowers there is no good thing that you will seek God for that He has intention of withholding from you. Why must we move God?
Anonymous
James Philemon Bowers yap according to reformed calvinists MISSIONS is waste of time too Kyle Williams Duane L Burgess know this well
Anonymous
Troy Day I beg to differ. Calvinism is responsible for the Founding of some of the most prominent missions movements in modern Christian History. Adoniram Judson and William Carey were both staunch Calvinists
Anonymous
Kyle Williams no not really LUTHER specifically wrote against missions and missionaries. Said everyone is a missionary where he is born
Anonymous
And, then there is 2 Kings 20:5-6.
1In those days Hezekiah became sick and was at the point of death. And Isaiah the prophet the son of Amoz came to him and said to him, “Thus says the LORD, ‘Set your house in order, for you shall die; you shall not recover.’” 2Then Hezekiah turned his face to the wall and prayed to the LORD, saying, 3“Now, O LORD, please remember how I have walked before you in faithfulness and with a whole heart, and have done what is good in your sight.” And Hezekiah wept bitterly. 4And before Isaiah had gone out of the middle court, the word of the LORD came to him: 5“Turn back, and say to Hezekiah the leader of my people, Thus says the LORD, the God of David your father: I have heard your prayer; I have seen your tears. Behold, I will heal you. On the third day you shall go up to the house of the LORD, 6and I will add fifteen years to your life. I will deliver you and this city out of the hand of the king of Assyria, and I will defend this city for my own sake and for my servant David’s sake.” 7And Isaiah said, “Bring a cake of figs. And let them take and lay it on the boil, that he may recover” (ESV).
Of course, Hezekiah’s prayer had nothing to do with what God did. God knew what God was going to do all along and was just jerking Hezekiah around to show off his power. Or, this whole explanation of why God acted as God did is simply the writer anthropomorphically putting words in God’s mouth to help us understand how God’s sovereign mercy works. Or, God’s actions are, as it were, preordained to automatically kick in when the appropriate stimulus is provided. Enter tears, prayer, and some remorse and out pops 15 more years of life. Or, God was always going to extend Hezekiah’s life but used the situation to exact a desired response in Hezekiah. Or, the whole episode portraying as it does a personal God who responds personally in time to his creatures is simply an effective creation of the writer to provide human beings some comforting reassurance that they are not alone in the universe—the force is with them.
Anonymous
Duane L Burgess you said COMPLETELY! but did not explain – pls explain with 2-3 points from the post what is your theological presupposition on this OP? James Philemon Bowers has given some great points here while Ricky Grimsley hid away
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse can you offer correct biblical exegesis on this one Ricky Grimsley John Digsby are just dying to drop some facts on our real theology
Anonymous
Consider the source with those two. —” (John 21:17)- everything or all = pas = the whole of knowledge — Know =eido = see — He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of Jonah, do you love Me?” Peter was grieved because He said to him the third time, “Do you love Me?” And he said to Him, “Lord, You know all things; You know that I love You.” Jesus said to him, “Feed My sheep. — So this says that Jesus sees all and thus knows everything. Jesus didn’t correct Him concerning that statement, but since Simon rightly saw that jesus knows all, Jesus commanded Him to feed the sheep. Sadly few listen to peter.
Anonymous
A true prophet speaks what says the Lord and often speaks about the future. Thus God knows the future -Deut 18 21 And if you say in your heart, ‘How may we know the word that the LORD has not spoken?’— 22 when a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word that the LORD has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously. You need not be afraid of him.
Anonymous
Gen 15 13 Then the LORD said to Abram, “Know for certain that your offspring will be sojourners in a land that is not theirs and will be servants there, and they will be afflicted for four hundred years. 14 But I will bring judgment on the nation that they serve, and afterward they shall come out with great possessions. 15 As for you, you shall go to your fathers in peace; you shall be buried in a good old age. 16 And they shall come back here in the fourth generation, for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete.”
Anonymous
Troy Day needs no interpreting – 23 Now while he was in Jerusalem at the Passover Festival, many people saw the signs he was performing and believed in his name.[d] 24 But Jesus would not entrust himself to them, for he knew all people. 25 He did not need any testimony about mankind, for he knew what was in each person. John 2
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse I AGREE – I think Duane L Burgess Kyle Williams do too
Anonymous
pure heresy Ricky Grimsley James Philemon Bowers
Anonymous
Troy Day how could this be true if not for open theism?
Matthew 26:53-54 KJV
Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels? [54] But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?
Anonymous
Ricky Grimsley Jesus’ prediction, therefore, was rooted in God’s omniscient awareness about Peter’s true character and was given out of love for the purpose of transforming Peter into the type of Christ-like leader the Lord wanted him to be.
Anonymous
Troy Day nonsense
Anonymous
Jesus is saying I could whoop the devil right now but it’s already written what I’m supposed to do so I’m gonna do that
Anonymous
If your view was true Jesus would be lying to Peter because he really would
Have no option to ask the father for the legions.
Anonymous
Ricky Grimsley this is a quote from an open theist Greg Boyd who said
“Jesus’ prediction, therefore, was rooted in God’s omniscient awareness about Peter’s true character …” – read it in his blog
Anonymous
Ricky Grimsley this does NOT prove open theism one little bit
Anonymous
Ricky Grimsley not my view – the view quoted is by open theist Greg Boyd – seems to be a confusion in the open theism camp on this one OR you are simply not aware what fellow open theists are believing on this
Anonymous
Troy Day Greg Boyd has other crazy beliefs but that doesn’t make open theism wrong.
Anonymous
We need a new thread
Anonymous
Ricky Grimsley new thread on WHAT?
Anonymous
Troy Day open theism already started .
Anonymous
Ricky Grimsley so did the tribulation – what should a NEW post on open theism say or state according to your new expectations?
Anonymous
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcnnpJgwL84
Anonymous
Duane L Burgess Kyle Williams John Mushenhouse though we have discussed before OPEN OR RELATIONAL THEOLOGY AS A MODEL FOR THE ALL-KNOWINGNESS OF GOD with Philip Williams James Philemon Bowers we basically must disagree with Ricky Grimsley on this one quite a BIT – not too certain where Link stands https://www.pentecostaltheology.com/open-or-relational-theology-as-a-model-for-the-all-knowingness-of-god/
Anonymous
Open Theists were dishonest from the beginning when they rebranded Charles Hartshorne’s Process Theology as Open Theism. I know this because I knew Hartshorne. My dear friend Norm Geisler knew this because he studied Hartshorne. We also knew that Hartshorne wasn’t a Christian. He was a panentheist and a Buddhist.
Anonymous
Philip Williams YES Philip Williams nothing is destroying ISRAEL more as the fake post-trib theory
Anonymous
Troy Day what has this to do with Open Theism? Clearly, you are loosing your marbles.
Anonymous
Philip Williams are you saying Ricky Grimsley is a dishonest Open Theist ?
Anonymous
Troy Day i don’t think anyone is dumb enough to confuse Calvinism with Open Theism. They could not be more opposed.
Anonymous
Philip Williams I think Ricky Grimsley equates Calvinism with Arminianism
Anonymous
Troy Day well, Arminianism is one point Calvinism. Why I am Pelagian!
Anonymous
Troy Day the only difference is whether the future is settled because god decreed or because gob knows before he creates. Either way the future is settled and all arguments are just dishonest
Anonymous
Ricky Grimsley no Biblical proof for this as Philip Williams noted
Anonymous
Ricky Grimsley you settle your future when you say that Jesus’s warnings about believers falling away were lies.
Anonymous
Open Theism is completely heretical, the work of the natural man who does not receive the things of the spirit.
Anonymous
we were wondering if Ricky Grimsley would agree with Kyle Williams
Anonymous
Duane L Burgess just be quiet. Read the Bible
Anonymous
Ricky Grimsley he is saying Open Theism is completely heretical, the work of the natural man who does not receive the things of the Spirit.
Anonymous
God could still foretell something through prophecy because He knows what His plans are, and He has the power and authority to carry them out. From what little I’ve read from open theists, they still believe in God’s omnipotence and ability to carry out His plans without being thwarted. Rather than saying that God knows every minute detail of what will happen (exhaustive foreknowledge), they see a God who is big enough to plan for every contingency and still achieve His ultimate will no matter what fallen angels or mere mortals may choose to do in the meantime.
Anonymous
Choose this day ( we choose ) that does Not stop God’s ability to provide A Spotless Lamb one that He Knew we would need from the foundations of the world ..
His ways are so much higher!
Revelation 13:8 “the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
The Father and The Son being one even so The Son has no knowledge of the the day or the hour , this does not mean that ability to know the future doesn’t exist , God may choose to for example ” throw our sins into The Sea Of Forgetfulness” …. God is also All Powerful Omnipotent… He has no limits . We are the ones with limits not Him.
Anonymous
Most who say OT is heretical misunderstand and misrepresent it, often strident Calvinists.
OT is a more biblical, coherent, robust, explanatory, less problematic model of providence/free will relational theism than Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Process Thought.
A distinctive is dynamic vs static omniscience. Exhaustive definite foreknowledge is not logically possible with libertarian free will. The future consists of possibilities and God knows this reality as it is. He is not ignorant of anything knowable.
https://drjohnsanders.com/open-theism/
Anonymous
William Lance Huget No, this is due to not believing Jesus words that only the Father knows the future and not recognizing the Messiah as the Lord God in Genesis, the same Christ as created all things. And not believing him when he tells us that the words he spoke to us will never pass away.
Anonymous
Philip Williams The triune God does not have exhaustive definite foreknowledge (logically impossible with LFW).
Huh? I affirm the Messiahship, Deity, words of Christ.
Anonymous
William Lance Huget you neither know the Scriptures nor the greatness and power of God.
Anonymous
How specifically? I have a B. Th. from a Bible College that focused on book by book Bible study more than philosophy, theology, etc.
I have read and studied the Bible in detail since 1970s.
I have been a pastor, elder, am Pentecostal and affirm the greatness and power of God as a worshipper and follower of Jesus.
Why are you such a miserable, grumpy, slanderous old man playing God judging the hearts and minds and motives of believers based on posts.
You seem to have a beef with those who do not bow to your philosophical theories on Open Theism (the view I have studies closely for decades in light of other views….I know the philosophical, theological, biblical issues….you are channeling W. Scott Taylor’s bitter spirit).
Anonymous
William Lance Huget no, your little “God” is not the God of Scripture who transcends time just as he transcends matter and space. Your little “God” must bow down to your god Chronos. That’s a pagan god.
Grow up and don’t be such a crybaby.