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Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit (Ephesians 5:18)
Is this a direct command for Christians NOT to drink as Paul commanded the church? John Conger Stan Wayne Alan N Carla Smith Corey Forsyth
Corey Forsyth [01/26/2016 8:33 AM]
Are we voting? đ
John Kissinger [01/26/2016 8:34 AM]
On a direct commandment from the Bible? This is not democracy
Corey Forsyth [01/26/2016 8:36 AM]
I know. Sarcasm. I believe it is clear but the fact is, everyone will read there conviction here. Those convicted against drinking will see this as a command but those who believe it is acceptable to drink will see some wiggle room in the wording “do not be drunk”
John Kissinger [01/26/2016 8:41 AM]
for once I like how the Amplified Bible (AMP) puts it:
18 Do not get drunk with wine, for that is wickedness (corruption, stupidity), but be filled with the [Holy] Spirit and constantly guided by Him.
Corey Forsyth [01/26/2016 8:44 AM]
I love the word stupidity here. If we are instructed over and over again to be sober minded, why introduce anything that compromises that?
Christopher Hart [01/26/2016 8:46 AM]
I don’t drink, but as mentioned already, the prohibition here is against getting drunk — against excessive, not moderate, consumption.
Jimmy Humphrey [01/26/2016 8:55 AM]
This issue is getting really old
John Kissinger [01/26/2016 9:00 AM]
Theology-on-Tap #ToT is a very real current issue among preachers who get together in church to do theology while sipping on an alcoholic beverage https://twitter.com/ourCOG/status/375722463608307712
John Kissinger [01/26/2016 9:04 AM]
sorry about the wrong link – here’s the right one https://thecogpk.wordpress.com/2013/08/23/to-drink-or-not-to-drink-that-is-the-question/
Steve Webb [01/26/2016 9:22 AM]
Dr. Arrington wrote an excellent piece on this. It is in this book:
John Kissinger [01/26/2016 9:34 AM]
Thank you Dr. Steve Webb what an excellent resource. It is great to hear the opinion of actual ministers on the subject of ministers doing #ToT in most cases ministers just remain silent while outspoken voices take over to claim and embrace drinking as not sinful http://christianreader.com/what-would-jesus-drink/
John Conger [01/26/2016 9:49 AM]
Once again drinking and drunkenness is not the same thing. As bad as you would like it to be
John Kissinger [01/26/2016 9:51 AM]
Once again – who do you propose makes the difference? Certainly you dont think the self-intoxicating person should be able to control his self-intoxication while self-intoxicating him/her self, right?
Stan Wayne [01/26/2016 10:06 AM]
^^^ this distinction seems somehow lost
– this is the confusion the temperance people of the 19th Century sowed:
âAnd be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;â
Ephesians 5:18 KJV
âLikewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;â
1 Timothy 3:8 KJV
Steve Webb [01/26/2016 10:26 AM]
The long and short of it falls to this…there is absolutely no need for a Christian to place mind altering alcohol in their body. The article by Dr. Arrington proves this point quite well. I’ll try to pull some highlights when I get home from work this evening.
Charity Alewine Murphy [01/26/2016 10:27 AM]
Wow I’m in a discussion now on this BC I’m getting attacked BC I don’t believe in drinking and BC of that I’m being told that when jesus turned water into wine he served it to others to drink and we can witness while serving and getting others drunk. So I get accused of twisting scripture bc Jesus did it and told I’m denying the miracle and saying Jesus sinned. When in reality I’m against drinking , do not think the wine was the wine we drink today and can’t make my self say its ok. Wow what a morning.
Stan Wayne [01/26/2016 11:09 AM]
Charity – great name – we all agree “getting others drunk” is against scripture – that is not the issue
John Kissinger [01/26/2016 11:27 AM]
#ToT short for Theology on Tap indicates a minister related issue. Who in the discussion IS an active minister and drinks? Pls elaborate
Stan Wayne [01/26/2016 11:28 AM]
Me
John Kissinger [01/26/2016 11:29 AM]
yes Sir Stan Wayne what denomination are you ordained with? //THANKS
John Conger [01/26/2016 11:29 AM]
One if the big problems with discussions like this is that no one wants to apply rom. 14 to themselves. People become convinced of something and they feel that since it makes sense to them then it must be right and therefore everyone should follow it. Whether its eating pork. Or drinking, or KJVO or what day is the Sabbath etc etc. When scripture plainly tells us to give for other beliefs. 2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs. 3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him. 4 Who art thou that judgest another manâs servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. 5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. {fully persuaded: or, fully assured} 6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
Stan Wayne [01/26/2016 11:34 AM]
I was ordained in the A/Gs in 1974 – obeyed the abstinence rule – moved over to Fellowship of Christian Assemblies for a few years – no rule – while in Assemblies my first stint was Teen Challenge Director of Louisiana where we battled drug addiction in youth and am friendly to working against alcohol or drug abuse. Pastored 10 years Taught at Evangel U for 4 years Phillips U for 4 years then missionary for 7 years in Japan – then itinerant preaching in Australia and now in New York – tent making as lawyer – drink beer or wine occasionally – especially if served by host
Mark Gonzales [01/26/2016 11:34 AM]
God never said not to drink. It always says drunkeness. Thats the problem drunkeness
Mark Gonzales [01/26/2016 11:36 AM]
But he also said Gods love is better than wine. Whats Gods love? Its his spirit .The holy spirit in our hearts. Drunk in the spirit is better
Stan Wayne [01/26/2016 11:37 AM]
Agreed Mark but it is not either or – not mutually exclusive
John Kissinger [01/26/2016 11:38 AM]
Mark Gonzales pls do not hi-jack this discussion too. Ephesians 5:18: Do not get drunk on wine – who is to say when the drinking person is drunk? Are you too proposing that the self-intoxicating person should is able to control his/her self-intoxication while self-intoxicating him/her self ???
Stan Wayne [01/26/2016 11:38 AM]
Mark – different subject
Stan Wayne [01/26/2016 11:39 AM]
This self intoxicating theory is crazy – of course a person can control that – usually they count how much is consumed
John Conger [01/26/2016 11:41 AM]
You should never be attacked for your personal conviction but if you don’t believe it was alcoholic wine then you have to accept that scripture commands ministers should not be given to grape juice
Louise Cummings
True. I don’t believe in alcoholic drinks at all.
Walter Polasik
This is where you need to know HISTORY. Vodka, Whiskey, anything DISTILLED, is something they DIDN’T HAVE in Jesus’ day. But then again, they didn’t have “soft drinks”, “iced-tea”, or Cool-Aid. They had juice, maybe lemon-aide (if somebody had thought of it) pure, cold water, beer and wine. The Bible speaks out against STRONG WINE, that is, UNDILUTED wine. But here’s another news flash: Jesus was no tee-totaler. The Pharisees accused him of being a ‘winebibber” because he did, in fact, drink wine a dinner while sitting with “sinners and publicans”. Jesus provided wine at Cana in Galilee. The Bible DOES speak out against being DRUNK, not against moderate or once-in-awhile drinking. And, in fact, all of the Christians in France and Germany who have wine and beer with dinner must be total sinners by some standards. Charles Spurgeon liked to have a “hot toddy” (tea with alcohol). Prince of preachers or vile hypocrite? I go by what the Bible ACTUALLY teaches (once again). not by Eve’s standard, “The Lord God said, you must not eat of it, NEITHER SHALL YOU TOUCH IT” (a false prohibition never stated). This is, again, rank legalism. Show me where the Bible teaches teetotalling to a believer and you’ve sold me. Otherwise, don’t teach legalism. đ
Louise Cummings
Study it out in the Bible where the grapes on the vine was called wine. So what they had many times in the Bible they had juice straight from the vine with the foam still in the juice. You study how In the Hebrew brings out. The Bible says drunk on wine is excess. Look it up. You can always make the Bible say to mean what you want it to mean. I’ll look up some Scriptures. I hope as many things and accusation as the Pharisees brought against Jesus that was false. And you believe this one they called a winebibber.
David Bast
So true they drank juice and to preserve it it was fermented, a natural process. It was mixed with water too! The problem is drunkenness and today we have a different product! We also have impure food and drink today! Treat your bodies as a temple to the Lord, should we be careful what we put in our bodies and how also?
Walter Polasik
Yes, but not to make it a legalistic rule and then judge people by it. We already have Seventh-Day Adventists that do that. (As well as Mormons).
David Bast
I agree I’m a Methodist, who graduated from a Baptist seminary, the law was not replaced by Christ, it was fulfilled and all legalism was replaced with the new covenant summed up: Mark 12:30,31″ And you must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your mind, and all your strength. The second equally important: Love your neighbor as yourself.”
Grover Katzmarek Sr
Part of that was true about legalism. Although the Christian life is one of self discipline. I believe that that was what Paul was talking about in Romans 12:1-2.
We see or I should say some sees a Christian doing something like smoking but that same group with stomachs hanging over their belts isn’t that just as bad. I believe we are as responsive le about healthy eating and exercise being a part of our life.
David Bast
At a meeting of Pastors recently I asked how many have a sermon on gluttony? They laughed and when I pushed for an answer no one commented!
Mike Schwiebert
This should be a no-brainer. Either we value the Bible for what it says or we try to make it mean something it doesn’t say.
Trying to make this an issue is evidence of not being able to handle the word of truth.
Do not be drunk does not mean do not drink. In any universe.
Respect the Bible or don’t. But don’t pretend you are by making it say things it doesn’t say.
Grover Katzmarek Sr
It’s the example we set forward when we do things. Drinking is included
Mike Schwiebert
Hi Grover, I’m really not trying to be argumentative or bombastic (seeing as how we don’t personally know one another this could be misunderstood), but I am concerned when we take this kind of approach to Christian living.
“The example we set forward” is a purely subjective thing.
When we have specific scriptural clarity, adjusting that to a subjective standard is, IMHO, a path to legalism.
Particularly in this case.
When set up extra biblical frameworks like “the example we set forward,” we ultimately undermine the God and standard we are trying to uphold. We make our personal preferences and perspectives the standard of what holiness looks like. That’s not a good path.
Of course, I may be misunderstanding the point you are making.
Link Hudson
Jesus was criticized for drinking.
Varnel Watson
Jesus also said he would not drink anylonger after the Last Supper
Link Hudson
And left the disciples a practice of eating and drinking to show forth His death until He comes.
Varnel Watson
So you think Holy Communion and getting drunk to be the same thing in Christ’s commandment?
Link Hudson
Troy Day What are you talking about?
The issue is whether one may drink beverages with alcohol in it. Clearly, ‘real wine’ was used in the first century. Paul wrote against the excess of it when writing to the church in Corinth when he wrote, ‘one man is hungry, and another is drunken.’
Varnel Watson
Your comment sounds like Holy Communion and getting drunk to be the same thing for you – why”s that now?
Link Hudson
Troy Day Maybe because you have something wrong with your comprehension. Drinking wine and getting drunk are not the same thing. Drunkenness results from excessive use of alcohol.
The Corinthians used ‘real wine.’ Paul did not rebuke them for that part. Show me your Biblical evidence for communion using unfermented grape juice in the Bible?
Also, from a historical and cultural perspective, wine had to be fermented back then to be considered kosher for Passover. They fermented it and then removed the dead yeast from the top. If they did not ferment it it would not be complete dead. Jesus said, ‘the scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. Whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do , but do not ye after their works.”
Richard Swenson
Link Hudson has nothing to do with anything except conflict and debate the 3rd or 4th posting on the subject in a week only seeking conflict among brethren……
For me drinking is a sin absolutely but I have struggled with addiction so I “believe” it is a different accountability for myself than others.
We are all in agreement that Jesus said do this in remembrance of me…… I often say to the die hard anti alcohol folks. What if on judgement day Jesus say I gave instruction to do this in remembrance of me and you spent so much time telling other not to. Again I don’t know what is rite except in my own case but I can not think that Catholics, Lutheran, Protestant, and so forth are doomed because they think they can have a glass of wine with dinner. (Yes drunkenness is a different subject) I also believe that when we become a church of laws rather than a church of love we have lost the battle. Some folks wake up everyday and think who will I poke with a stick today. It does absolutely nothing to build the church but only causes dissension among brethren……… this would be the point of attack where I am told I am wrong bla bla bla ……. tell ya a secret I’m a sinner …….. and doubt I’ll ever be part of the “bullies with Bibles club” unfortunately I have not been able to trade my bible for a cape being a bulletproof super Christian yet……. until then I’ll continue to love and take shelter under grace……. NUFF SAID !!!!!!
Link Hudson
Richard Swenson If you have a problem with alcohol, abstain. The only problem with that is if it is the Lord’s Supper at a place that uses ‘real wine.’ Unfermeted wine is the fruit of the vine as well.
Disagreement and strife aren’t the same thing. Jesus pointed out error in the beliefs of those He spoke to. Paul did the same thing in his writings.
I don’t drink socially or for entertainment. My wife may use a bit in cooking, since she is a skilled cook and used to work as a chef for our former business. Alcohol cooks off. I have probably had less alcohol in my life then most posters who oppose it. I have probably had far less than Jesus did in His 33 years in the earth in my 44+ years on this earth.
Richard Swenson
Ps when Jesus turned water to wine how much was it ….. a glass ????? More like 260 gallons “the GOOD stuff” being an ex addict I’m well aware of what “the Good stuff” means. I have seen many many lives destroyed by drugs and alcoholism. However have not found it where this should be condemned (alcohol before it’s twisted) if anyone should I probably should be one as my testimony with alcoholism dates back 3 -4 generations. I pray I have broken the generational curse. I would much rather share the gospel of love and let God sort it out as he did for me. As I say to my pastor….. we can bring them in the front door and give them love but by the end of the service folks will be beating them out the back door with their bibles….. shameful it is……….
Link Hudson
Richard Swenson In the first century, I’ve read that they used to mix wine with water. I’ve read four parts. When I was in high school, the footnotes on ‘qualifying’ wine said that they used to mix wine with water back in Shakespeare’s day, too.
Richard Swenson
Link Hudson I really don’t want to debate this but link the grape begins to ferment the second it is plucked from the vine. It’s comical do we really believe that they could not come up with a term for juice. LoL they said wine and wine is wine. I have heard the debates that it was actually a jelly mixed with water…… I personally think it is not an area that builds the church. Just separates folks from the church…… there are countless debates that can be had over subjects. I tend to defend “ALL” Christians including Pentecostal. Ya see some of us hunger for knowledge and others seek conflict and self sanctification. More often than not self proclaimed preachers.
Link Hudson
Richard Swenson I didn’t realize we were disagreeing. You said you didn’t condemn those (Lutherans, etc.) who had one glass of wine or a beer with dinner. That’s my concern. That’s the attitude I actually learned to have growing up from the tee-totalerism preaching. I’m not encouraging anyone to drink socially. I just don’t think we should condemn other people over it.
Words in different languages have different meanings. If we have two words in our language, another language could have one word for it. In Indonesian ‘malu’ means shame, embarrassment, and shyness. They have one word for those things which are distinct words in English. A language could use the same word for ‘wine’ and ‘juice’ which makes a lot of sense considering it starts to ferment on the vine. Nazarites, Old Testament tee-totalers weren’t allowed to eat raw grapes or dried raisins.
Richard Swenson
Link Hudson nope not trying to disagree with anyone…. and yes languages can be translated differently……. on a side note I have herd the translation of raisins and virgins is very close perhaps the jihadist when they do their thing get 72 raisins and not 72 virgins …..
Link Hudson
Richard Swenson I read that, too, white raisins or something like that. I did not go far enough with Arabic to know. There is a way to combat terrorism. Tell potential terrorists that there are no virgins waiting on the other side, and offer them a box of raisins and say that is what they get in exchange for their life.
I have heard of women doing suicide bombing and know of one case where one was involved in another act of lethal terrorism. I wouldn’t imagine the women would get any virgins according to their religion. But the scary thing is the only promise of salvation that Muslims have, if I am not mistaken, in their religion is to die in a jihad.
Other Muslims believe they have to go to Hell for a while to pay for their sins. That’s something many Christians and Muslims agree on, that Muslims go to Hell. They have no guarantee that God will forgive their sins, either, except if they die in jihad. And there are radical groups that persuade individuals that blowing up buses and trains qualifies them as jihadist ‘martyrs.’
Richard Swenson
Link Hudson yup it’s sad….. Catholics also believe that there must be atonement for sins (purgatory) who knows. Not me …… I just work on me …… daily ……. my goal has always been to share the book of love not the book of laws.
Thomas Chadwick
I thank God I was set free from alcohol and drugs. Back when I was a leader in The KKK. I drunk and did drugs all the time. But when Christ got a hold my life . And changed it thank God for the Holy Ghost. Because it helped me to overcome .
Ed Brewer
…..the bible doesn’t say ‘don’t eat Tide pods’ either…..just sayin…
Varnel Watson
Ed This is what DR. FRENCH L. ARRINGTON says Emanuel Rodriguez Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit (Ephesians 5:18)
Is this a direct command for Christians NOT to drink http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/dr-french-l-arrington-the-bible-and-alcoholic-beverages-beer-wine-liquors-and-total-abstinence/
Emanuel Rodriguez
Troy Day please be careful, look at the scriptures carefully
Emanuel Rodriguez
You are rebuking the scriptures
Varnel Watson
I have looked at every NT scripture you can cite in favor of your conviction and am ready to debate you openly on any and all of them in due time proving the case of TOTAL ABSTINENCE
Emanuel Rodriguez
Troy Day, you can make the case of abstinence in wisdom. Against that I cannot argue.
I am pleading that you be cautious as to prohibit against the law or add to the letter of the law. This is the sin I am trying to avoid
Ed Brewer
Dr. Arrington did a great job in this article (as usual) – my point with the Tide Pods crack was to point out how ludicrous a standard it is to think that just because the verbiage of scripture doesn’t EXPLICITLY prohibit a thing it is permissible. The bible, most scholars agree, has an IMPLICIT bias against fermented drink, and as such demonstrates the heart of the Father on the matter. Do not we, who will judge angels, have the ability to discern conclusively what the Father’s will on this matter without demanding a comprehensiveness from scripture that was never God’s intent? The Word shows us His heart, His priorities, and how to enter into a productive relationship with Him, unencumbered with such foolish distractions as these. Rightly Dividing the Word is the standard, not mollifying the demands of the unsanctified.
Varnel Watson
Emanuel Rodriguez Empty talk is not theology proper. I plead with you to give up the sin of drinking for you are way too young to control the spirits
Emanuel Rodriguez
Troy Day this isnât an issue of theology proper as theology proper deals with the doctrines of God… concerning his immovability, his immutability and such of the like