Real Christians do not drink ANY alcohol

Real Christians do not drink ANY alcohol
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Marc Jackson Emanuel Rodriguez Without further adieu I give you DR. FRENCH L. ARRINGTON Pass him and you are more than welcome to debate me on the topic Ed Brewer
Jeanette Elizondo I agree with your view on total abstinence for Christians !!!
Eric Phillips Troy I was born and raised COG, my grandfather was a pioneer Pastor in the COG….they were founded by a Methodist and a Baptist….in the Methodist tradition they have always been abstainers this is not news.As always they refer to New Wine or watered down wine which has no actual historical basis, even if it did exist it still had alcohol content at least much like modern day beer which in most cases is only 4% to 5% alcohol which still means early christians were not abstainers.I am not pro alcohol, I am in no way encouraging anyone to do something in violation of their conscience. I am saying please don’t insult my intelligence when all of history says different than a modern man made doctrine that is distinctly regional in its application (US and even more so a Southern US thing). God is a worldwide God and holiness is not a regional standard.The problem with any thing that the COG or anyone else puts out on alcohol is that they always and only give extreme examples of drunken out of control behavior. We all agree the Bible is clear on drunkeness and self control….no one is debating that.But to infer somehow that a husband and wife who share a glass of wine with dinner is somehow unholy or sinful is simply ludacris and extreme in the other direction.The bible teaches moderation and self control in any and all things that are allowed under Christian liberty and not strictly prohibited by scripture.Drunkeness is wrong becuase of the loss of self control which leads to all of the other abusive sins associated with alcohol abuse.
Melvin Shomo I personally do not drink but I do agree with you..My thought are that we as Christians need to be a shining example unto others. If we like to keep a case of beer on hand and have a fellow Christian come by that isn’t very learned in scripture, then it is better to keep the beer out of view. The Bible has said not to give place to the devil, and this brother who is week in the faith could take it the wrong way..
Marc Jackson Eric Phillips  Why would you feel that this article by DR. FRENCH L. ARRINGTON insults your intelligence ? http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/dr-french-l-arrington…/
Eric Phillips He states he can’t say whether or not the water Jesus turned to wine had alcohol content or not….but goes onto hypothesize that it did not while later admitting it could.He admits that new testament believers drank what he calls water downed wine.He explains they drank wine as an alternative to the dirty contaminated water of that day and that he estimates based on some other guys theory an alcohol content of 4% to 6% or roughly the same as a modern beer.The insulting part is he tells us they drink wine to avoid contaminated water, only to tell us they take this same filthy water and pour it into good wine 4 parts pond scum to 1 part wine.To believe that I would either have to believe they were some pretty stupid people to contaminate their alternative drink or I would have to be stupid to believe that they were that dumb.And lastly show me any other thing that was not a sin in the NT, something that was permissable, that is now a sin like alcohol is made out to be? And what was the date when it changed from being ok, to your going to hell now for drinking it?
Vickie Embry Ex causes
Marc Jackson Melvin Harter What does your organization’s Practical Commitments require from ministers and members per Dr. Arrington’s exegesis?
Randal W Deese It is an historical fact that the Christian church has used alcoholic wine in the Lords supper, during the days of the Apostles and throughout history until the abstinence movement. Therefore, I would suggest that it is more holy to use alcoholic wine then grape juice, both biblically and historically. The introduction of novel Doctrines does not make them more correct nor more holy
Melvin Harter Let me first say that I find it is a total disgrace to the CoG (Cleveland, TN) for such a subject to be mentioned, let alone for Dr French Arrington to have to write such a statement. I also noticed that even though this particular writing was in recent days (February 2018), I did notice that an earlier writing by Dr Arrington was posted in 2012, which suggests to me that this subject must have been discussed even then. I studied Greek 2 under Dr Arrington at Lee College (University) in the early 1970s. Dr Arrington is an outstanding Professor and his writings can be totally relied upon. Now why is alcoholism a discussion issue today?  Have you ever thought about that?  I contend there are two definite factors that bring about this type of a discussion: (1) the international arm of the CoG; and, (2) the neglect of the Doctrine of Sanctification being taught at Lee College (University).  When the CoG expanded primarily into Europe, having wine with their dinner was a common factor with the European Christians. Instead of the CoG contending against such, they begin to make the argument of acceptance and were influenced by our European brethren. And secondly, at Lee College, designated classes were conducted on subjects such as (1) Soteriology (Doctrine/Study of Salvation) and (2) Pneumatology (Doctrine/Study of the Holy Spirit).  However, there was not even one course offered on the Doctrine of Sanctification. I recall the Doctrine of Sanctification was only brought up in Dr John Sims’ class, Dr Hollis Gause’s Systematic Theology class and in Dr French Arrington’s Greek 2 classes, particularly as it related to our Exegetical Studies. So in essence, the Doctrine of Sanctification was never fully emphasized in our studies at Lee College. I believe it is due to these two factors as to why there is discussion for acceptance of social drink in the CoG.I would encourage every CoG minister & layman to listen to a sermon entitled SOCIAL SINS by CoG minister Dr Ray H Hughes, Sr, a video that I posted on YouTube.
Eric Phillips Influenced by our European brethren who founded most of Christianity’s modern churches and contended for Christ and the church before America even existed! But yes your right we need to explain a thing or two to them about church history (there history)!  I’m reminded of that old hymn “The Church of God is right hallelujah praise the lamb!” Lol
Eric Phillips Dr. Hughes was a great man, not infallible however. I went to Lee myself with some of his grandkids…pretty sure the amount of trouble they stayed in…. they never listened to Papaw lol
Melvin Harter But Bro Eric Phillips, America was basically founded by those who sought religious freedom from the religious restraints in Europe.
Eric Phillips Yes and Melvin Harter I guess your gonna tell me the pilgrims who came here drank fresh water on the trip over across the Atlantic? This is my point to agree with you I would have to suspend logic.Also you do realize the only way the colonies survived was to sale there only cash crop back to Europe? What was it? Tobacco.I am not pro alcohol or pro tobacco however to deny there place in church and American history is what I don’t understand.I respect your position on abstinence from drinking and it may be best to advise that…but not in the context as a damnable offense. Alcoholism is a serious thing as is any addiction. Bu to not differentiate between drinking and drunkeness which the Bible itself does is where you lose me doctrinally.I know many fine men and women who share your stance, I have preached it myself…but the more I studied the Bible and actual human history itself it does not line up with that view.
Melvin Harter Eric Phillips then why did you preach it?
Eric Phillips Because it’s what I was indoctrinated with my entire life and I never questioned it until I started studying on my own.
Melvin Harter I think you have lost your way my brother. You need to return to the old paths again.
Vickie Embry Alcoholic has ruin many family killed people in my eyes it.s evil
Melvin Harter Vickie Embry So true my sister. It has destroyed many families & lives and sent millions of souls to a devil’s hell. So many in the Church have been deceived into thinking social drinking is okay. We need voices to cry out against such a damnable Doctrine that is being taught in many churches by worldly ministers. God bless you Sister Embry.
Vickie Embry Yes too many feel good church I know one church they had a super bowl party an serve beer what a shame I feel sorry for the preacher needs to teach the Bible
Melvin Harter Vickie Embry GOD HELP US.
Vickie Embry I’m glad in old fashion
Marc Jackson I liked Dr.Arrington’s statement. Guess the question was more of how your organizations practical commitments propose to deal with ministers or members who drink (socially) Ed Brewer
Randal W Deese I would suggest that the biblical way of dealing with presbyters who socially drink is to make sure that they are not partying and not getting drunk.
Randal W Deese I should change that to exhort as opposed to make sure… I’m not there daddy
Melvin Harter How does an organization deal with social drinkers who are in their ministry or lay members of their church?  That’s a simple answer. You EXCOMMUNICATE them.
Randal W Deese Oops … There goes Jesus
Melvin Harter Randal W Deese Not true my brother
Randal W Deese Melvin Harter We will have to disagree on this one brother
Melvin Harter Disagree or not my brother, but show one scripture where Jesus sponsored a party where liquor was promoted.  There are none.  Regarding the Marriage in Cana, there is a distinct difference between NEW WINE & OLD WINE.  And I do not believe the scripture will contend that Jesus turned water into OLD WINE.
Randal W Deese Melvin Harter Next you’ll try to convince me that they didn’t get drunk on communion wine in first Corinthians chapter 11
Randal W Deese That alone shows that communion wine was alcoholic….And another is drunken – The word used here (μεθύω methuoÌ„) means properly to become inebriated, or intoxicated; and there is no reason for understanding it here in any other sense.
Melvin Harter No, Brother Randal W Deese, you failed to read verses 18-19.  There were divisions and heresies in the Corinthian Church.  Have you ever considered that drunkenness in vs 21 may be a heresy?
Randal W Deese Melvin Harter They were drunk because they drank too much communion wine. Read the Greek text
Melvin Harter There were divisions & heresies.  Don’t you think it may have been somewhat connected to Communion?
Randal W Deese Melvin Harter “haireseis” a choosing, taking sides, holding views of one party, heresy (our word). “Heresy is theoretical schism, schism practical heresy.” Cf. Tit 3:10; 2Pe 2:1. In Paul only here and Gal 5:20.
Link Hudson That is in direct violation to Romans 14.  You do not judge them.  If they aren’t given to much wine and they don’t get drunk, you should not condemn them.Pentecostals should abstain from dumping their legalism on unbelievers and new converts,too.
Link Hudson Melvin Harter If there were a drinking heresie, then it would have been a faction dedicated to drinking or that separated from others based on drinking.  I don’t see any evidence of that happening in I Corinthians.  But could a church that excommunicates believers who drink like Jesus drank (non-sinfully), as you would recommend, be creating a heresy by their divisive behavior?
Marc Jackson SOCIAL SINS by CoG minister Dr Ray H Hughes  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cd7kC7QXFDs
Melvin Harter Simply put, everyone who drinks alcoholic beverages and liquor GO TO HELL.
Eric Phillips Lol cause I’m Melvin Harter and I said so!I thought God was the judge and the only one who could pronounce judgement and eternal damnation?You having a fit if rage is not really a way to convince others to look seriously at your arguement when you come off like the opening act at a WWE event.
Melvin Harter Eric Phillips not because I said so, but because God says so. Isaiah says for us to Lift up our voice like a trumpet. Show my people their sin.
Eric Phillips But he did not call you to call things sinful, wine in moderation, that he himself did not deem sinful….so yes it is you saying so….you cannot show one verse that backs up what you are saying above, not one that says anyone who has a drink goes to hell.But I can show you what the Bible says about adding to or taking away from his word…to not even add or delete a dot on an I…your adding entire thoughts…dangerous ground.Lastly “showing them there sin” and passing judgement as to decide who will condemend to hell are two different things.Judgement is the Lords.Acts 10:13-15
Link Hudson Where do preachers go who make up doctrine contrary to the Bible and condemn other believers to Hell?Jesus drank.  You can’t be holier to Jesus by holding to a man-made standard that He did not adhere to.  Your post typifies what is wrong with some streams of Pentecostalism and Holiness type teaching, the self-righteous, holier-than-thou man-made legalism aspect of it.  Let’s get back to the Bible.  Bible over tradition, even Pentecostal tradition.That kind of preaching ‘aint holy.  God has the right to condemn men to Hell.  Preachers don’t have the right to condemn men to Hell for not living up to their man-made standards.
Eric Phillips Melvin Harter…when the disciples came out of the Upper Room….tell me why they needed to explain that they were “not drunk with wine as you suppose”?If they were such notorious teetotalers explain the need for that exclaimation?
Melvin Harter Bro Eric Phillips, why would you require an explanation when the scriptures are plainly stated?  It was not the believers who were stating the 120 were drunk. Peter did not quote from the book of Joel to the saints. Just because the saints were baptized in the Holy Ghost and gave an appearance of being drunk on alcohol did not and even today does not mean they actually consumed alcohol. So how do you state they were teetotalers?  Do not confuse the 120 on the Day of Pentecost with the total CoG at Corinth.
Eric Phillips Acts 2:1 -16 …. I am not confused and you did not answer my question …. if they never drank why caveat the statement with seeing it is only the 3rd hour of the morning or 9 AM. If they never drank why add that? Time of day would not matter for someone who abstained 100% correct?
Eric Phillips Not only not drunk with wine as you suppose….but at this hour of the morning…infering you may find them festive later in the evening and not think it strange.
Melvin Harter Wine is a mocker.
Marc Jackson It’s funny to me how someone can take a Scripture that clearly says they do not drink, and twist it to they may drink
Eric Phillips Good greif I did not twist anything, and as usual you have not answered any of my questions.Funny to me for a guy who likes to act like he has all the answers.I simply ask again why announce  your not drunk with wine this early in the morning?
Marc Jackson Eric I was actually responding to bro Melvin but you are welcome to jump in with any comment you may offer on the original Greek of this verse. On another note, you seem to be taking this discussion against drinking way too personal. You probably have a personal reasons to do that and are welcome to share them. But please keep in mind we are all here to discuss theology not personal issues Thanks
Eric Phillips Lol Troy you make me laugh, thank you for the humor.I don’t see a discussion of theology on this subject I see you doing what you do anytime someone disagress with your opinion.
Randal W Deese Can one imagine that God would encourage an alcoholic beverage. Oh my! The ignored tithe passage:Deu 14:24  And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; [your tithe. See vs 1] or if the place be too far from thee, which the LORD thy God shall choose to set his name there, when the LORD thy God hath blessed thee:Deu 14:25  Then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the LORD thy God shall choose:Deu 14:26  And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or FOR WINE, or FOR STRONG DRINK, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,Deu 14:27  And the Levite that is within thy gates; thou shalt not forsake him; for he hath no part nor inheritance with thee.
Melvin Harter Every alcoholic started with his first drink.
Randal W Deese Every adulterer started with his first sexual experience. Ok. So!
Melvin Harter There is a vast difference between the two.
Melvin Harter We are commanded to “shun the very appearance of evil.”
Randal W Deese From a Biblical perspective, alcohol isn’t evil. God even encouraged using it in the verses above – in His Holy, Pure and Righteous Law.
Melvin Harter Wrong again my brother.
Randal W Deese Melvin Harter Explain the verses I quoted above. Your controversy is not with me, but Scripture.
Link Hudson Wine is not evil.  God gave oil to make men’s face shine, and wine to make men’s heart merry, like the Bible says.  Drinking wine in moderation is evil to men who have been pre-programmed to judge others by legalism in their church tradition.
Melvin Harter Let not your good be evil spoken of.
Eric Phillips That assumes wine is evil, which contradicts scripture.
Melvin Harter Eric Phillips not true
Melvin Harter The drinking of alcohol will damn your soul to hell.
Randal W Deese Why do you keep damning Jesus to hell? John the Baptist did not drink wine (oinos in the Greek) or any other form of alcohol because it was prophesied that he wouldn’t (Luke 1:15). However, Jesus Christ did drink oinos (wine) (Matthew 11:19; Luke 7:34). Jesus did not preach against the use of wine; instead he did like most other Jews of his day.
Melvin Harter Randal W Deese , did you read Dr Arrington’s Report?  Wine was not the same as it is today. And why would Jesus promote the drinking of wine when in doing so, sends you to HELL
Eric Phillips You can in no way prove that and his report is not scripture.He is a fine man, but his article stretches to prove his point not to actually give an accurate historical account.Melvin Harter sure wants somebody to go to hell over this subject
Melvin Harter I CORINTHIANS 6:10, “Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor DRUNKARDS, nor revilers, nor extortioners, SHALL INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD.”  If one does not inherit the kingdom of God, then the conclusion is, he is in HELL.
Eric Phillips Melvin Harter….yep Drunkards…not drinkers…you know like….gluttons…. not eaters!We ALL AGREE DRUNKENESS IS SINFUL BECAUSE THE BIBLE SAYS SO!WE DON’T AGREE THAT A DRINK OR DRINKING IN MODERATION LIKE IS REPLETE THROUGHOUT BOTH THE OT AND NT IS SINFUL….BECAUSE IT IS NOT DRUNKENESS AND THE BIBLE DOES NOT CALL IT SIN.Good grief you need to spend a little time studying etymology…words and there meanings matter.
Melvin Harter If you never take the first drink of alcohol, you will have nothing to worry about. But if you take the first drink, it will lead you deeper into sin. There are many scriptures to address total abstinence. Only those unsanctified souls promote social drink. A saint of God will have no desire to even take one drink of liquor.
Randal W Deese Melvin Harter Baloney.
Melvin Harter Randal W Deese , Say what you want. But what if you are wrong?
Randal W Deese Melvin Harter What if you are guilty adding to the Word of God? Serious business my friend…
Melvin Harter Randal W Deese you must not have been a Church of God minister.
Link Hudson Melvin Harter Having a glass of wine and being a drunkard aren’t the same thing.  Do you damn people for having some wine mixed with water?
Link Hudson Melvin HarterIn the context of this passage, what did the Son of Man drink?Luke 733 For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil.34 The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!John did not drink WINE.  The Son of Man came drinking.  The Son of man drank ______?Do you ever encounter a Baptist who believes that if someone repeats a prayer after a preacher, he can go out and fornicate and kill people and he’s guaranteed a place in heaven?  Do you ever think how can someone be so steeped in tradition as to hold to it even when you show him verses to the contrary?Have you ever stopped to think what your beliefs about alcohol, even the extreme of damning people for drinking a little of it, are based on?  It isn’t the Bible.
Vickie Embry I agree
Link Hudson If someone wants to abstain, that’s fine.  I’d say there are two problems with it– abstaining from the Lord’s Supper is undesirable, certainly if you do it all the time.  Secondly, Paul opposed the idea of Timothy engaging in total abstinence, apparently.  He wanted him to drink a little wine for his stomach’s sake.Still, I find this article to have some logical problems.  He says, “He instructs the church leaders, whether pastors (1 Tim. 3:3; Tit. 1:7) or deacons (1 Tim. 3:8,) regarding the consumption of alcohol to be “blameless,” strongly implying total abstinence is the Biblical standard.”Look at I Timothy 3:8.  It contradicts his conclusion.  Look up that verse in the Greek.  How can you get total abstinence out of a command that deacons not be given to much wine?  If they are not to be given to much wine, they can drink some.And some people do drink dilluted wine.  I hear farmers in the field in Italy drink a bit of wine with lots of water.  I’ve also read the interpretation that ‘strong drink’ is undilluted wine.If you grew up in a Methodist-and-temperance-movement-influenced religion, like Pentecostals or Southern Baptist, maybe some mild drinking would be considered a reproach.  But it is not from a Biblical perspective.Jesus drank wine and gave the apostles wine and told them to drink it.  So how can we be holy by looking down our noses on people Who did what Jesus did.  Isn’t the ‘holier-than-thou’ condemning attitude that a lot of Pentecostals have toward those who drink like Jesus drank (non-sinfully and in moderation) a problem that pastors need to address?  Instead of writing articles in favor of teetotalalism, which we know is not required in scripture, why not also address the issue of legalistic snobby false holiness that consists of adhering to manmade standards (e.g. ‘Taste not’) that God does not require, while looking judgmentally down on those who do not adhere to them.Even John Wesley did not outright condemn the drinking of wine in moderation. He preached against the dangers of distilled liquors. Drunks addicted to gin were an issue in his day, and the preaching evolved to condemning drinking wine and beer in moderation.  I was raised not drinking wine, beer, etc.  I’ve probably drunk much less alcohol (mainly as cough medicine or residual amounts in Japanese or Italian food) than most preachers I’ve encountered who are opposed to alcohol.  Other than cough medicine and small amounts in food cooked with wine, about two years ago, I had maybe an 8th of a glass of red wine on a plan two years ago when I had a throat infection forming in my throat while flying to China for a job interview process that required a presentation and a demo class.  It really helped my throat a lot.  I’ve never been drunk or tipsy from drinking.I say that as a non-drinker, because the legalistic condemning type of Pentecostal likes to respond to reasonable posts on the topic of drinking by accusing the poster of being a drunk, being against holiness.You can’t be holier than Jesus.
Melvin Harter We are commanded not to even have fellowship with drunkards – I Corinthians 5:11.
Link Hudson Romans 14 gives us some wisdom on this:2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.Paul applies his teaching to drinking wine later in the chapter.  Those who are opposed to drinking wine should take this advise as well.  The should not judge those who drink in moderation, and give thanks to God.I don’t know if there were any teetotalers in Paul’s day who’d invented a doctrine of it.  Timothy may have been completely abstaining for whatever reason, and Paul did not agree with that.  Paul could have been a temporary teetotaler if he had a Nazarite vow, but from grapes, grape juice, and raisins also.  I don’t think the post-Wesley doctrine existed then.  There may have been some gnostic type groups or ascetics of different types who wanted to abstain from certain foods to be holy.  My guess would be Paul’s reference to drinking wine might have had something to do with the fear that some of the wine sold in the marketplace had been poured out as a libation to a false god before being sold.  Either that or it could have been some sort of kosher issue.
Marc Jackson Romans 14 speaks specifically to eating (or not eating) sacrifice Has nothing to do with social drinking. It is a far stretch by any exegetical rule. It also insults people who dont drink as weak in the faith which is nowhere close to what Paul was talking about BTW as a I understand Melvin Harter properly any member of the organization called Church of God is NOT allowed to drink per their Practical Commitments. Therefore, no one who drinks wine, beer, stronger drink can hold membership or claim any association with the Church of God. Is this well understood? Ed Brewer
Randal W Deese It is a serious stretch of the imagination and an anachronistic fallacy to teach that social drinking was not the norm in Biblical days. They all drank wine as much as water at every social gathering.
Marc Jackson Dont think Jesus was in anachronistic fallacy  when he said in Matthew 26:29 I tell you, I will not drink from this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.”
Link Hudson Marc I don’t get your point about anachronistic fallacy.  He drank the fruit of the vine then.  The disciples were to continue drinking it.
Randal W Deese Marc You didn’t make any sense.
Marc Jackson I simply quoted what Jesus said – what does not make sense to you in the Words of Jesus?
Link Hudson Marc When did Jesus say ‘anachronistic fallacy’.  That part didn’t make sense.  The anachronistic fallacy would be to assume that first century Jews or Christians held to 19th century Holiness movement beliefs against consumption of any alcoholic beverage.
Marc Jackson That was the term used by Randal W Deese BTW Link you are getting sidetracked again – Are you yourself a Church of God member who drinks beer, wine, stronger drink?
Link Hudson Marc I haven’t claimed I am a part of the Cleveland denomination, but I don’t know if GBI has any teetotaler rules at the denominational level.  I’d be a bit surprised if they did.  When I went to one in the 1990’s. someone had brought back some real wine from Israel in one of the congregations and they’d mix it into the communion wine. I would suspect GPDI to be more likely to have such rules, and they are with Foursquare now.
Eric Phillips Troy Day seems to have a strange love affair with the Practical Commitments of the COG.Notice these are extra and above the Doctrinal Commitments.If you excommunicate any and everyone who doesn’t follow in full the Practical Commitments of the COG you would have to shut many churches and most Pastors would lose their credentials.All non-tithers OUT!Those who don’t submit to the authority placed over them in the Lord OUT!If you read under Spiritual Example and then under Good Stewards it even tells us how to spend our time….they may deem our debate as a waste of time! OUT! It speaks out against to much leisure time OUT!It talks about the wise use of money! All the Preachers who built buildings they couldn’t fill or pay for, all the state offices that just about went under a few years ago and the Int’l Leaders who had to reorganize to keep the COG from Bankruptcy OUT!I could go on and on and on ad homimem since Troy seems to want to kick anyone he can out of the COG and Melvin wants to send them all to hell!
Marc Jackson Only after bro Melvin mentioned them I connected them to Link strange claims he is/was cog member Are you a cog member too??? I am not that familiar with the booklet
Link Hudson Troy Day when did I ever make such a claim? I spent about a year attending COGs in high school bit I spent several years in the A/G.  I was an ‘aktivis’ at a GBI in Indonesia for about a year and I have preached in GBIs. I never applied for membership in a US CoG (Cleveland). My story hasn’t changed.
Marc Jackson well any time you made it I countered that you are not cog or ag but some strange bird sort – you always got upset; now it turns its true our AG dont allow drinking either
Randal W Deese I hate fake holiness. When anyone adds rules to their faith as proof of purity that Scripture does not firmly teach, it is the opposite of true holiness.
Link Hudson Troy Day So what?  The Son of Man came eating and drinking.
Marc Jackson Randal Orthodoxy has plenty of rules on dressing 🙂 especially for the priests – how did you chose your gown colors ? Nothing Link – just that you are not Pentecostal that’s all I rest my case
Randal W Deese Troy Day but… The emphasis is quite different. Every church has rules, but extra rules to become holy…hmmm
Randal W Deese Troy Day I didn’t know Pentecostalism is defined by you? Please give me your definition of a true Pentecostal?
Marc Jackson The emphasis is always on holiness. Remember the guy who lived on top of a pillar ?
Randal W Deese Troy Day Ha ha ha ha
Randal W Deese Your point would be valid if every person was required to live on top of the pillar… If you think about these things a little deeper
Link Hudson Not familiar with the pillar analogy.  Troy Day  are you more concerned with preserving tradition or with the truth of the word of God.You can’t be holier than Jesus.
Link Hudson Troy Day Not drinking doesn’t make someone weak in faith.  If someone thinks all drinking of alcohol in sin, yes he is weak in faith in that area.  Principles of conscience extended beyond issue of meat offered to idols.  Corinthians is clear that is the weak conscience issue. In this passage, we have to guess.  It could have had to do with kashrut or something else entirely.At least Christians who thought mystery meat from the market was unholy had some kind of Biblical or theological basis for their belief.  Even the article you quote cites a verse reference that allows drinking, and tries to spin an article outright.  ‘Not given to much wine’ implies drinking a little is allowed.  Also, I read an article that pointed out the lack of scientific evidence that alcohol in the drinking water killed parasites.  It seems reasonable, but I don’t know if there is any evidence for it, much less the idea that this was the reason they drank back then.  There could be health benefits for the stomach other than antiseptic properties
Marc Jackson Link Hudson Does drinking wine, beer, stronger drink make one not a member of the Church of God? Melvin Harter
Link Hudson No, of course not.  The members of ‘the church of God which is at Corinth’ had ‘real wine’ for what was supposed to be the Lord’s Supper.  Paul doesn’t condemn that.  He does comment on their drunkenness.
Link Hudson Wine had to be fully fermented to be kosher for Passover.  They drank wine in Matthew 26.  In Matthew 23, Jesus had said the scribes and Pharisees sat in Moses seat and to do what they ‘bid you observe.’  The Pharisees had them drinking wine that was completely fermented so all the yeast in the wine would die and they could slough it off the top.  Grape juice could have yeast in it that hadn’t all died off yet, so it wasn’t kosher.
Marc Jackson Link Hudson Seems to me you are not even Church of God after all. It may do you well to do some research how the NT uses words about wine and drinking around Jesus. You will note quickly that NT writers use the words  cup, fruit of the vine and so one. Jesus said This cup – no Gospel writer dared argue what was in it. The fruit of the vine means exactly that not a strong drink like ye suppose. Same goes for Acts 2, Timothy and so on. French Arrington explains it much better than I canBOTTOM LINE: People drink cause they want to drink (and use the Bible as an excuse) If you have a drinking addiction to the point that you need the Bible to justify it, you should look for professional help
Link Hudson Troy Day Those who try to preach teetotalism just have made up doctrine without a leg to stand on Biblically.  The reason the Bible can be an ‘excuse’ to drink is that there are plenty of examples of righteous people drinking wine, etc. and verses that indicate that it is allowed.  There are warnings against excess.  And like I said, I am a non-drinker with the exceptions (e.g. cough syrup, residue in shrimp scampi or Japanese noodles), though legalistic Pentecostals who don’t have any scripture to back up what they say often like to accuse those who do not agree of having a drinking problem or insinuate it.The Gospels do not explicitly say what was in the cup, but Jews drank cups of fully fermented wine for Passover.  I thought you folks who have degrees in theology learned about all that history stuff.
Link Hudson Troy Day I am part of the church of God in the Bible.  As far as the Cleveland denomination goes, I didn’t say I am a part of that.  Maybe you are getting us posters mixed up.  I’ve attended regularly a couple of them in the past if you count GBIs in Indonesia.
Randal W Deese We use real wine in the Lords Supper as it has been done for 2000 years.
Link Hudson Luke 7:33-34For John the Baptist has come eating no bread and drinking no wine, and you say, ‘He has a demon.’The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, ‘Look at him! A glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ (ESV)Troy Day and Melvin Harter Jesus said the Son of Man came eating and drinking.  What was He drinking in this context?
Randal W Deese Grape juice argument began during abstinence movement. It is fraught with historical misinformation so as to justify it’s novelity in the history of His Church!!
Randal W Deese If I had time I would respond to every point Dr French has brought up. … In fact, I need to go… Blessings
Marc Jackson Randal Grape juice argument began during abstinence movement in America, you know? There are other countries in the world You really need to broaden your scope being orthodox and all
Link Hudson Troy Day You are the one who holds to a position created in America that is pretty much unique to America and maybe a few places affected by American missionaries.  Some Presbyterian missionaries to South Korea apparently taught teetotalism.  Strangely enough, Yoido Full Gospel seemed to be serving ‘real wine’ for communion when I visited in the 1990’s.
Marc Jackson Link To be honest I am not surprised to learn that you are not Church of God like you’ve claimed Your amalgamation seems to be somewhat cultural but certainly not theological or practical
Link Hudson Troy Day,  I have been consistent with my claims.  I have attended COG and GBI (Indonesian version of COG) in the past, and I haved preached in GBIs on occasion.Why do I get the sense that denominational affiliation seems to be more important to you than whether your ideas are Biblical?
Angel Ruiz Denominational affiliation is somewhat important maybe not as important as biblical theology but if affiliation someone stresses dissipate in the same Logistics of worship for example Church of God of the USA and Church of God in Mexico are culturally different but we still participate in the same logistical worship values
Marc Jackson Link What does your Church of God practical commitments say about drinking strong drinks and social drinking by members?
Link Hudson Troy Day I’ve heard they are against it.  If Jesus did not abide by a practical commitment, it should be called into question.
Angel Ruiz The same could be said about some of the teachings of the Apostles the apostles spoke on areas of what Jesus never spoke of this was to establish Unity we could say that some of the teachings of the Apostles could be practical commitments for the local church
Link Hudson Are you equating practical commitments ith the epistles. Why not just accept RCC traditions as binding?
Angel Ruiz Cuz Roman Catholic traditions are not found in Scripture
Link Hudson Angel Ruiz and that is an issue with the practical commitments too.
Angel Ruiz Yes they are…
Link Hudson Saying a Christian must abstain from all alcoholic beverages is not Biblical.  Jesus told tge disciples to Drink ye all of it.  Tea is a mood altering substance.
Marc Jackson cog holds it as a matter of membership, which you seem not to hold or if you do is in some strange way of social drinking
Link Hudson Jesus in 20 AD would not have met the qualifications for membership in the COG (Cleveland), would He?
Link Hudson Troy Day I haven’t heard of such requirements around here.  Alcohol is not as much a part of the culture, either.  But it doesn’t effect me anyway.  Btw, as I pointed out, I am not a ‘social drinker.’  Alcoholic beverages stink.  I just don’t condemn people for drinking in moderation like Jesus did.  I would drink communion wine if it were ‘real wine’ as opposed to grape juice.
Marc Jackson That makes sense for organization that is just amalgamated but not really part of  larger denomination Good point
Link Hudson It was the largest national assembly in the denomination the last I heard.
Joseph D. Absher φαρμακεία is pharmakia and translated withcraft in the new testament. Pharmakia means drugs and booze. I’ll often hear a man call it “self medicating.” This includes drinking and weed and dope. Things like this altar a man’s personality. Clouds his judgment, corrupts the morals of a man and pulls down his will. “Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,…”  — Galatians 5:19,20Pharmakia is used again in Revelations”Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.  — Revelation 9:12″But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.”  — Revelation 21:8
Link Hudson Pharmakia means ‘drugs and booze’.  That’s a pretty huge leap.  It’s translated witchcraft.  If it has something to do with potions, that doesn’t mean it refers to the drinking of wine, which is mentioned many times in the Bible.  Paul told Timothy to drink a little wine.  Was he telling him to engage in a little ‘pharmakia’?
Joseph D. Absher A little wine for his stomach is not going change his personality. But even a couple of beers can do that. Link Hudson
Link Hudson They used to mix wine down with water in ancient times.  Shakespeare even mentions the practice.
Joseph D. Absher Yes I’ve heard. It’s in the Bible too. I think that would dilute it. Especially if it’s homemade wine. It would gardly be an alcoholic beverage at all.
Link Hudson Troy Day On some level, you’ve got to realize it doesn’t make any sense to read teetotalerism into the Bible.  Do you think the Pharisees accused Jesus of being a Welch’s grape juice bibber?
Link Hudson I hear the Jewish authorities allowed mixing Passover wine down to a certain ration.  I think it was 5 to1 or 6 to 1.  Children drank during the meals as well.
Marc Jackson The mix drink is just one of many theories out there that people use to justify their love for drinking. The Bible NO where even implies Jesus Himself drunk mixed drink
Link Hudson Jesus said the Son of Man came eating and drinking.What other vines did Jews drink the fruit of.
Joseph D. Absher Do you really think this is over a glass of wine? It’s not even over the scriptures. It’s about men and their sin. People want their sin and so called liberty. Who has one glass of wine. Nobody I know.
Link Hudson Joseph D. Absher I was reading the other day that about half of American drinking-occasions lead to drunkenness while it is like 1 out of 10 for Europeans.  It’s a cultural thing, maybe even something spurred on a bit by prohibition.I’m not into drinking wine or beer, but I am sure you can find people who might drink one craft beer with dinner or one glass of wine.
Joseph D. Absher That’s good blame the law. That’s a hot one
Link Hudson Joseph D. Absher The issue here is men making up doctrine.  Melvin Harter even said social drinkers go to Hell.  Men have no right to damn Christians God hasn’t damned.  That’s false doctrine, and it goes against the teaching of scripture about judging, e.g. Romans 14.
Joseph D. Absher So if you’re for drinking it’s a crusade against judging?
Link Hudson Joseph D. Absher I’m against false doctrine and legalism.  I grew up not drinking.  I am not a ‘social drinker.’  I’ll drink cough medicine if I need it, and wine in communion if they use ‘real wine’ (which some Pentecostal churches do, btw, in Indonesia and South Korea).  I’m not trying to get people to drink.But it is wrong for Pentecostals to look down their noses at believers who drink in moderation.  And it is very wrong to condemn them to Hell for it.
Link Hudson I’m also a bit tired of tradition-generated stupidity.  If someone says something stupid from the pulpit, don’t believe it just because it’s from the pulpit or because your papaw and your meemaw’s preacher used to say it.  If it’s old timey preaching that doesn’t make it right.If you can open up the BIble and see the preacher contradicted the Bible, it’s wrong.
Joseph D. Absher So you’re promoting and defending drinking? “In moderation?”
Marc Jackson Great point bro Joseph D. Absher Was this the wine is mocker comment you had the other day?
Joseph D. Absher “Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.”  – Proverbs 20:1May God have mercy on us forgive us. So sad really. Jesus paid an awful price for our liberty and comfort and strength. I’m heartbroken. Brothers sleeping with women that ain’t there wife talking about “lust is such a hard problem” and ministers of Christ so-signing it.Then I hear talk about oh we had mighty move of God but there was no moral change at all. High feelings and maybe somebody got healed or got a little relief or a little blessing, but still loving the world drinking the devil’s cup. A devil for a deacon and pervert for leading the choir. No conviction in pew and no backbone in the pulpit.I don’t know if anybody used the pharmikia argument but drink changes you. The will is undermined. Conviction looses it morings. Sin gets easier and praying get harder. If want to be free you can be free. If you want victory over sin you can have it in Jesus name. If you will learn to draw your comfort and rest and sleep and peace from Christ you will have it in plenty. You can poor your southern comfort down the toilet and honey jack too. Then there will light in the land Goshen and not the darkness of Bacardi bats. Fellowship with the Lord Jesus Christ and tell that old devil “get behind me satan, for it is written thou shalt worship the Lord the God and him only shalt thou serve.” I’m not serving booze or lust or worry or the opinions of men I’m serving God by faith in Jesus Christ.We need to put the P of purity and “cost” back in Pentecost. Buy of me gold tried in the fire Jesus said. or go back to your vomit and wallowing in the mire. So sad people would rather argue the Bible than pray through to victory. God help us and have mercy on us.
Marc Jackson Thank you bro Joseph D. Absher The argument people are making to drink without getting intoxicating is NOT from the BIBLE It is liberally borrowed from the Clintons who spoke pot but did not inhale People drink because they want to drinknot because the Bible says they can drink wineIf you are delivered from it you dont mess with it no more [period]Drinking socially shows a deep social psychological disorderThe need to justify it with the Bible is fundamentally wrong theology
Randal W Deese Hahaha
Randal W Deese 1. I use real wine in the Lord’s Supper because it’s an act of holiness
Randal W Deese 2. I drink wine at home as a reminder of God’s blessing and fruitfulness.
Randal W Deese 3. As one who was powerful he delivered from alcohol and drug abuse, the Lord has set me free from desire to get high either.
Randal W Deese And for the record, I drink alcohol with a dinner about one time in every three months. He who is free is free indeed. I have no desire to ever go back to my pre-conversion days of alcohol and drug abuse.
Marc Jackson You are so funny 🙂
Randal W Deese Troy Day Thank you.
Joseph D. Absher What does it represent. Success, fellow ship, comfort, status, fun,Then consider the other uses in the Bible stubbornness, pride. The wrath of God. This might be the one case where I “spiritualize” the Bible. New wine is joy and gladness and cleansing.
Joseph D. Absher In court with a new believer. On a different case a young man was sentenced. Two years in prison. Unsuccessful in drug court. The charge was two overdoses in one day. Thats right he was revived and released  and found dead a second time the same day. With heroin and needles. He O.D.’ed behind the wheel. People think overdose happens immediately. It doesn’t. Same with alcohol deaths. It takes time to work it’s way into the system. You can work with a man and they will get drunker even after they have stopped drinking. Sober minded means more than abstinence from drugs and alcohol. It be honest before God and not self deceived.
Marc Jackson Randal W Deese Joseph D. Absher IF I MAY cite David Lewayne Porter here just for my friend Dr. Melvin HarterDavid Lewayne Porter11 ago hrs · Harnett, NC, United States · “From a ministry friend:Alcohol-Related Deaths:An estimated 88,000 people (approximately 62,000 men and 26,000 women)die from alcohol-related causes annually in the United States.In 2014, alcohol-impaired driving fatalities accounted for 9,967 deaths (31 percent of overall driving fatalities).Economic Burden:In 2010, alcohol misuse cost the United States $249.0 billion.Three-quarters of the total cost of alcohol misuse is related to binge drinking.Why aren’t we dealing with this abomination?” [end OF quote]WE START with getting rid of ToT sipping dipping and tripping preachers FIRST in the church, so we can PREACH the pure Gospel of salvation and holiness without being made fun of by the world where drinking cigs and drugs are long discarded from the social normWe start in the church and establish NON-drinking standard of holiness there FIRST before consuming ourselves with stats from the world. Look at the Church first – the world will close their own bars and pubs when the Church is on Fire of Revival – it happened before in history you know Alan Smith http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/newspring-removes…/
Randal W Deese That isn’t in the Bible..hmmmm
Marc Jackson drugs are not in the bible ?
Randal W Deese Troy Day Number of new syphilis cases: 74,702 (2015)Number of new chlamydia cases: 1,526,658 (2015)Number of new gonorrhea cases: 395,216 (2015)And what about all the deaths from the same…We should ban sex because someone might abuse it… Haha
Marc Jackson was the next thing I was gonna post for David
David Lewayne Porter The world will close it’s own bars and pubs….Quoting Troy Day.Is that why the wheat and tares grow together,That is why men will grow worse and worseThat is why there will be a GREAT falling away.Yes we will draw some, but don’t count on the world closing up all our even many of it’s pubs and bars (unless of course you pull a Smith Wigglesworth and personally get the owner saved).
David Lewayne Porter You guys are hilariousTroy Day Randal W Deese…Ban sex.Sex is not the issue. Using it contrary to God’s guidelines is the issue.So let’s discuss the other THINGS, items, and situations in which the item is not the issue, the over indulgence or use other than God intends is the actual issue.
Randal W Deese David Lewayne Porter You proved my point. Thank you
David Lewayne Porter If you think I proved your point you are truly lost Randal W Deese.There was no point.It is funny he Troy Day only posted part of the original post. As normal he twist things to fit his agenda.
Randal W Deese David Lewayne Porter Having alcohol is fine if used in accordance to GODs guidelines.Having sex is fine if it is done in accordance to GODs guidelines.Simple, logical and Scriptural.Both are allowed within perimeters.
David Lewayne Porter Exactly
David Lewayne Porter So Randal W DeeseYour point was different from mine how?
Randal W Deese David Lewayne Porter I didn’t say yours was different
David Lewayne Porter It came across that way. Here is the entire post,  including what Troy Day left out. …From a ministry friend:Alcohol-Related Deaths:An estimated 88,000 people (approximately 62,000 men and 26,000 women)die from alcohol-related causes annually in the United States. In 2014, alcohol-impaired driving fatalities accounted for 9,967 deaths (31 percent of overall driving fatalities).Economic Burden:In 2010, alcohol misuse cost the United States $249.0 billion.Three-quarters of the total cost of alcohol misuse is related to binge drinking.Why aren’t we dealing with this abomination?Shouldn’t the alcohol industry be held financially accountable and that money used to repair the damage being done instead of our tax dollars.- end from friend -….IMHO(And they are after certain style guns:Sad, sad indeed).Need we discuss abortion?
Link Hudson How many early deaths occur due to overeating?  Does that make it a sin to eat food?
Marc Jackson David Lewayne Porter to respond to you misquoting me again:”Is that why the wheat and tares grow together,That is why men will grow worse and worseThat is why there will be a GREAT falling away.””The messages of Evan Roberts were simple and yet powerful, so much so that it was reported that even the bars (pubs) closed for lack of patrons. ” – just one of many examples. This WHY we should study church history – so we dont repeat it. The reason we have a falling away is namely because preachers drink and are scared to preach the holiness way because their drinking parishioners would not pay them – so much for holiness by the church clerk paycheck IF churches preach holiness way again bars will close down BTW if you believe the great falling away you should also believe in a last days great revival. But how do I explain something like that to a pessimistic eschatologian?  AMEN Melvin Harter https://www.proclaimanddefend.org/…/evan-roberts-and…/
David Lewayne Porter Troy DayIf you don’t think that you are  able to explain anything to a pessimistic eschatologian Then why do you troll and tag them?When you can reconcile Spirit Filled Holy Ghost believers being demonized and acting out during services as they hold positions of authority within the ChurchThen maybe just maybe those pessimistic eschatologians will listen to you as an authoritative source.
Marc Jackson I dont think I am able to explain anything to a pessimistic eschatologian  either. Are you one? Praise GOD anyhow Joseph D. Absher David Lewayne Porter and  how do you  reconcile Spirit Filled Holy Ghost believers drinking beer and strong drinks?
David Lewayne Porter So Troy DayYou believe that a great end time revival is going to close bars and pubs while they are going to be needed for the simultaneous falling away?Nice theology there.Yes, I see said the blind man.8)
Marc Jackson David Lewayne Porter What is the measure in your practical commitments against drinking preachers / members and preachers who condone social drinking? The exact measure pls
Link Hudson A Biblical tithe:Deuteronomy 14:26And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,Troy Day and Melvin Harter Do you think God was wrong?
David Lewayne Porter Now Link,Don’t confuse Troy.
Link Hudson The idea that tradition, including stuff preached from old timey pulpits, might not be Biblical can be confusing to some people.
Link Hudson If you insist that a man not drink wine to be holy shouldn’t you also insist that he grow his hair long?
Marc Jackson Sorry for not including you in my cog references Angel Ruiz whats your take on all this?
Joseph D. Absher Not to throw the discussion off but if I remember correctly the grand old methodist Mr. Wesley recommended some wine to his preachers. But the climate in jolly old England is rather damp.
David Lewayne Porter I have seen where Wesley was against alcohol use except for as prescribed by a physician. Yet and using alcohol as prescribed by a physician, it still shows the moderation of use. That’s why I stand the way I do. If someone says they’re a teetotaler, then they can’t use it anytime anyway in any form.
Joseph D. Absher I believe Wesley was referring to strong drink. Gin etc.
David Lewayne Porter The Johnathon Wesley foundation has some interesting reading on the subject.
Joseph D. Absher I have on fact read Wesley was a home brewer
David Lewayne Porter Sources please
Joseph D. Absher Leaving for early church. Later?
David Lewayne Porter I am almost at service now
Joseph D. Absher Yup and praying for focus lol
Link Hudson There is a sermon quote where he recommended beer I came across not too long ago.  He was apparently against distilled liquor.
David Lewayne Porter Source please
Marc Jackson Many preachers been sipping nyquil this flue season
Randal W Deese Oh no… They are sinning. Take their license… Ha ha ha ha ha ha
Marc Jackson now thats a proven fact http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/newspring-removes…/
Randal W Deese Troy Day If the man is getting drunk on a regular basis… Of course… But you mentioned NyQuil
David Lewayne Porter Perry Noble had a larger issue than nyquil or medicine or for that matter flavorings.He had an issue, a youthful lust – with alcohol which was shown by a lack of moderation, as in he had no moderation.
Marc Jackson He has been reinstated  in Clemson – probably because of the building project he started next to the campus and needed to supervise Do you know him personally?
Marc Jackson O HOLY GOD we, have come to a point wherepastors text and post on facebook during sermon hour while thousands are going to hell in a hand basket at the same time teachers be sipping a beer with friends on Saturday night and get up to teach Sunday school on Sunday morning still with alcohol on their breathseminary professors teaching it is OK to drink in the Bible during the so called Theology on Tap meetings in a local publonely pastors sitting in their cars shooting whiskey in the darkness of the church parking lot after preaching 2-3 services on Sundaypreachers are concerned with every social, political and cultural issues except the salvation of eternal human souls Alan Smith Melvin Harter
Link Hudson Preacher be eating and drinking with sinners while teaching them about the kungdom of heaven then be condemned by the Pharisees for doing so.
Marc Jackson cheap excuse
Link Hudson Your whole way of thinking about this is so alien to the way the apostles thought about it and what the Bible teaches.It’s kind of like this anti-beard Oneness preacher.  Most of us don’t care one way or another about beards.  Wearing a beard doesn’t make you any less holy.  But because of this guy’s tradition for whatever reason, they must have some weird idea that not wearing a beard is more holy.   He wrote,”When Apostolic Pentecostal Churches And Organizations Say It Is Ok To Wear Beards, The Question Soon Arises…Why?What do they hope to gain?Does that bring revival?Is this in anyway related to the same spirit of rebellion of the Hippies?What is the purpose?In some twisted way does the wearer feel it makes them more like Jesus? How?Isn’t pride part of it?”From: https://martynballestero.com/…/i-dont-like-facial-hair…/Isn’t that whole line of questioning just dumb?  Why think there is anything wrong with beards in the first place?  Some people interpret Isaiah to mean Jesus ahd a beard.
Marc Jackson beards? another cheap excuse when out of ammo ? attack the issue not the person – the issue is depressed preachers turn to whisky and substance abuse
Link Hudson Troy Day I notice your tactic when someone demolishes one of your arguments– call their post a ‘cheap excuse.’
Marc Jackson You are out of order. Speak to the issue please
Link Hudson Preachers shouldn’t get drunk. Neither should deacons or any other Christian. But Jesus instituted something that involved drinking alcohol in church.
Randal W Deese Link Hudson You are absolutely right link. Therefore, those who do not use alcoholic wine in the Lord supper are not following after holiness. They’re following after their own ideals.
Link Hudson Randal W Deese If they aren’t Jewish and it isn’t around Passover time, does it matter if the wine is kosher?
Randal W Deese Link Hudson The only thing that’s important to me as we follow scripture as best as we can without playing games with his word for our own personal agendas
Marc Jackson Nowhere JESUS said to use wine for the Supper. He literally said THIS CUP – go figure it out when you learn Greek
Randal W Deese Troy Day Perhaps you could go study the idiom of Hebrew called fruit of the vine… grape juice wasn’t introduced until recent history everybody understood what fruit of the vine meant… This novel Doctrine is sin
Link Hudson Troy Day It says cup.  It says fruit of the vine.  But Jews drank wine at Passover–fully fermented to be kosher for Passover.  And what ever the Corinthians were drinking could get an individual drunk if he drank it in excess.
Marc Jackson You know that for a fact from where? Not the Bible at all means There is no single verse in the NT saying Jesus drunk strong wine. Show me one? The only one you’ve been copy pasting is false accusation from his enemies which still does not imply he practiced social drinking as you imply.
Link Hudson Troy Day Of John the Baptist we read,13 But the angel said to him, “Do not be afraid, Zacharias, for your prayer is heard; and your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you shall call his name John. 14 And you will have joy and gladness, and many will rejoice at his birth. 15 For he will be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink. (NKJV)What did John not drink?Luke 733 For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine, and you say, ‘He has a demon.’ 34 The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, ‘Look, a glutton and a winebibber, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ 35 But wisdom is justified by all her children.”(NKJV)Jesus said the Son of Man came eating and drinking.  Do you disagree?  The accusation implied excess, which was not true.
Marc Jackson It is plausible to suggest Jesus held the same standards as John  the Baptist did They read from the same Scriptures in the same community => same standards
Link Hudson Troy Day Nazarites were not allowed wine or strong drink.But strong drink was poured out as an offering before the Lord.  He apparently didn’t think of it as some preachers do, as if it were dung in the camp.  And Jews were allowed to use one of the tithes, if they lived far from the place the LORD chose, to buy food, wine, and strong drink to consume.So drinking wine and strong drink (some would say beer) is specifically allowed in the Bible, and nowhere was it forbidden.. except in special cases like those who took the Nazarite vow.  They weren’t allowed to touch dead bodies.  But someone has to or cities would get nasty really fast.
Link Hudson Troy Day Jesus and John were different.  John did not come eating or drinking, but the Son of Man came eating and drinking.
Marc Jackson So said his enemies only – no one else They did quote from the same OT manuscripts however which denotes their interpretation was not that much different. But again NO where the Bible says Jesus drunk wine. Dr. Arrington makes a great case for that –  read it in the article and good luck
Link Hudson Troy Day Jesus said the Son of Man came eating and drinking.  HIs opponents took this and distorted it to call Him a winebibber.  What beverage was discussed in that passage in Luke 7?
Link Hudson Jesus said that whatever the scribes and Pharisees ‘bid you observe, that observe and do.’  Why would He have had a beverage besides wine in the cup if that were the case?
Marc Jackson So do you do everything that the scribes and Pharisees ‘bid or just the social drinking. This is again a partial argument so easily excuse. You simple have no Biblical evidence for social drinking. That’s all
Link Hudson Troy Day Come on.  Be honest with yourself.  Don’t you realize there is no reason to try to read back teetotalerism into the scriptures except for tradition– your church tradition for about 100 years or a little more has opposed all alcoholic beverages.  But you can read the Bible too.  You can see that drinking wine or beer (or strong drink) for tithes as allowed in the Old Testament, just like I can.Like me, you can’t find where wine was outlawed.  Sure, there are warnings against it.  Excess of wine is a dangerous thing.  But it isn’t forbidden.  There are also some positive statements about wine.  It is given to make men’s heart’s merry.  The Jews drank wine at Passover.  It had to be fermented completely to be kosher, because the yeast had to die completely to be removed.  Jesus drank ‘the fruit of the vine.’  You might insist one of the 12 sailed a boat to the Americas to get some tomato juice, or that some other fruit of the vine was in the cup.  But you know that is ridiculous just as I do.I’m asking you to be honest with yourself.  Depart from tradition for once when it just doesn’t make sense.
Link Hudson Troy Day Kosher wine for Passover was one of the kosher issues the scribes and Pharisees dealt with.  And it was a religous festival, not mere ‘social drinking.’
Randal W Deese And I suppose one could argue that since a group of people were drinking a cup of wine, it was social
Marc Jackson Link You and I just examined your position. If you are to be honest you have to admit there is NO Bible for it. No reason to call me out personally as I dont call you out personally. You free to believe whatever but you and I both saw there is no Biblical evidence Jesus drunk wine. Keep on going to to other NT verses – you have Timothy using as medicine and you have the Corinth church rebuked for using real wine and getting drunk, whereas that should have never been the case – Paul’s stance on it. Then you have one instance of Jesus not drinking fruit of the vine until in Heaven and the whore from Revelation drinking a mix. That’s all – certainly not a consistent Biblical evidence for social drinking – dont you agree? And then the only one left is the  first miracle – love to debate you on that one too 🙂
Link Hudson Troy Day You are clearly eisegeting about Corinth.  If you conclude Paul wrote that because he was against their using wine, that is a ridiculous position to hold.It’s reasonable to take ‘the Son of Man came eating and drinking’ to refer to drinking wine in context.  It is not reasonable to say there is NO evidence because that is evidence right there in Luke 7 and parallel passage(s) (I know there is at least one in Matthew).  There is the cultural context– drinking wine at Passover.  If ‘fruit of the vine’ is an idiom for oinos, that’s evidence.  Apart from that, just form a historical perspective, the fact that He was drinking the fruit of the vine in a Passover seder is good evidence that the fruit came from grapes.  It was during a time when yeast wasn’t allowed, which required that it be fully fermented.  Jesus said to follow as the scribes and Pharisees bid.  Their requirement for kosher wine is also a reasonable interpretation of the requirements for Passover if one is going to drink the fruit of the vine.
Marc Jackson ONLY  passage you got left is John 2 but I doubt you wanna go there with social drinking
Link Hudson Troy Day Do you mean the only passage left after mentioning a number of passages that show that drinking alcohol in moderation was not forbidden?  I’m sure there are other passages.And you know John 2 indicates they served ‘real wine’ at weddings.
Link Hudson I wonder if that Oneness preacher is just convinced that Jesus did not have a beard, not because of the Bible, but because he saw so many clean-shaven faces in Oneness churches, and maybe even heard preaching against facial hair.  The same feeling you probably get, Troy Day, if someone suggests that Jesus drank wine.
Randal W Deese Thank God for wine and Strong drink. May Believers return to the truth of the Bible instead of committing the anachronistic Fallacy with their novel doctrines of Pharisaic Legalism. Talk about a tradition of man!
David Lewayne Porter Not to sure about thanking God for strong drink,,,But I do agree with the rest of it.
Randal W Deese Maybe rejoicing with strong drink would have been a better way of saying it… *Smile*Deu 14:22  Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year.Deu 14:23  And thou shalt eat before the LORD thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always.Deu 14:24  And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; or if the place be too far from thee, which the LORD thy God shall choose to set his name there, when the LORD thy God hath blessed thee:Deu 14:25  Then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the LORD thy God shall choose:Deu 14:26  And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household…
David Lewayne Porter Yes I know the scriptures over strong drink in celebration.I also know the ones against it.
Marc Jackson Nowhere did JESUS say to use wine for the Supper. Literally NO WHERE He said THIS CUP is my blood
Randal W Deese The Hebraism fruit of the vine was always alcoholic beverage… Go study the older Hebrew language
David Lewayne Porter Troy DayHow were the Corinthians leaving the Lord’s table/supper “drunken”?Paul’s commission to them was against drunkenness as he offered moderation and restraint as well as reminding them it was God’s house, not their own.
Marc Jackson David Lewayne Porter Since you ask – how do you practice the Lord’s supper – do you give wine or juice? What has your denomination authorized you to give with the bread? – – – Exactly! I rest my case
David Lewayne Porter No Troy DayYou always divert.You accuse others of teaching man’s traditions and not having proper biblical understanding and follow through, soWhy were the Corinthians leaving drunken?How according to your BIBLE  were they getting drunken?As Jesus said to his Pharisees,”You can’t answer me, then neither do I answer you”.
Marc Jackson No diversion. I ask you directly – do you practice what you preach? It is a simple test for hypocrisy Will you stand you in your church at Communion and serve strong wine? I would and I have.   Dont divert from my question please – what do you serve during Communion?
David Lewayne Porter Troy Day,I asked first, I asked according to scripture.You diverted. You asked according to man’s teaching and traditions. Sad, sad indeed.I just wonder if you do it intentionally or if you truly don’t see it……
Marc Jackson Why you call me a fraud? I havent called you any names? Arent you a fraud being licensed in a non-drinking denomination but you hold a Jesus-drunk theology  David Lewayne Porter You should surrender your license
Randal W Deese Troy Day Certainly Jesus drank alcoholic drinks.Luk 7:33-34 NET.  For John the Baptist has come eating no bread and drinking no wine, and you say, ‘He has a demon!’  (34)  The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, ‘Look at him, a glutton and a drunk, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’The Jews of His day took the fact that Jesus drank wine, to the extreme, in an attempt to paint Jesus in a poor light. I have no doubt that Jesus never got “drunk”, but from this verse it is obvious that He did drink alcohol beverages.
David Lewayne Porter Troy DayYour biblical misunderstanding shows….Allow me,You mentioned strong wine…Biblically speaking.It is wine and then strong drink.Where did you biblically, not man’s traditions, get strong wine?Sad indeed
Marc Jackson I addressed this already Randal W Deese This is what his enemies said about Him.  You got no case there
David Lewayne Porter Troy Day, when you can address the conversation that you left and refuse to address to where you claim spirit filled Holy Ghost believers can possess and manifest demon during church services,,,Then you may sit in a position to require someone else to abide by teaching or surrender credentials.
Marc Jackson David Lewayne Porter  In your organization how does one report a minister  who indulges in social drinking theology? How does the process work exactly? Would you please tell me I also ask bro Melvin Harter on this one Thank you so much for you answer
David Lewayne Porter And for the record I have used both.I have used Welch’sBUT DID YOU KNOW those little premade communion cups will FERMENT before their expiration date? And it is not just one church or service I have been in that used them while they had fermented.So Troy DayTake all their credentials. So back to you. …The Corinthians were leaving  DRUNKEN! Your Bible says that in KJV and Greek.I rest my case.
Marc Jackson David Lewayne Porter Will you please answer my question:  In your organization how does one report a minister who indulges in social drinking theology? How does the process work exactly? No answer? I rest my case
David Lewayne Porter Troy DayWhy, are you a credentialed CoG member wanting to do so?
Marc Jackson What is a credentialed member? I would like to know what the exact process is. Will you tell me please?
David Lewayne Porter Active member or credentialed minister, take your pick, I don’t believe you are either, I have never seen your name on the lists. …
David Lewayne Porter Gotta go, at work, until tonight…Troy Day that gives you time to answer my question biblically
Marc Jackson So you wouldnt tell me 🙂 Surely someone would know what the process is to be followed here Melvin Harter ?
Melvin Harter Bro Day, there have been several CoG ministers who were found to be drinking alcoholic beverages. Their ministries were totally revoked.  Some years later, they were able to get their credentials back. Now those who engage into the social drinking theology?  I can only officially state what it was some years ago. There were two specific questions on every CoG ministerial examination; namely, (1) are there any CoG Teachings that you disagree with? And (2) Do you agree with ALL the Teachings of the CoG and will you abide by each one of them?  Of course, you must answer these questions correctly if you are to be granted ministerial license in the CoG. If you failed to correctly answer either of these two particular questions, then you were denied acceptance.
Randal W Deese Melvin Harter I’m glad I am not a part of humanistic legalistic denomination. Praise God!!! Jesus would lose His credentials!
Melvin Harter Bro Randal W Deese, I too am glad that I am not of a worldly church denomination. Praise God!  Jesus would never be found there.

49 Comments

  • RichardAnna Boyce
    Reply October 2, 2019

    RichardAnna Boyce

    REAL Christians are under the perfect law of liberty. But REAL Christians should not drink ANY alcohol… in front of weak immature christians, such as those posting this, as they may be a stumbling block to them having the liberty we REAL Christians enjoy 🙂

  • Troy Day
    Reply October 2, 2019

    Troy Day

    there is no REAL and unreal ones There is only Christians The whole idea of the invisible church was created by catholics to pay penance The church is very much real and visible

    • RichardAnna Boyce
      Reply October 2, 2019

      RichardAnna Boyce

      Troy sorry for my hyperbole 🙂

    • Isara Mo
      Reply October 3, 2019

      Isara Mo

      Troy Day
      Christiand DO DRINK ALCOHOL but not the children of God..
      Makes a lot of sense isnt it?

  • Robert Erwine
    Reply October 3, 2019

    Robert Erwine

    well I don’t drink….

  • Troy Day
    Reply October 3, 2019

    Troy Day

    is the truth

  • Isara Mo
    Reply October 3, 2019

    Isara Mo

    So do real.Muslims and Hindus and Buddhists..

    • Troy Day
      Reply October 3, 2019

      Troy Day

      YES

    • Isara Mo
      Reply October 3, 2019

      Isara Mo

      Troy Day
      There are murderers who dont touch alcohol , assasins who dont smoke, and even prostitues who dont sip wine…
      A real Christian is the one who KNOWS their God not the ones who dont touch alcohol.
      Spritual seekers know that alcohol corrupts the mind…so they avoid it so did the ancients. It is an old spritual discipline of the Easterners..so I dont give hi fives for any non drinking Christian…No credit at all.Nothimg to be proud of..
      Those who know their God do great exploits not those who are teetotallers…

  • Thomas Henry Jr.
    Reply October 3, 2019

    Thomas Henry Jr.

    Not biblical—sounds like Palmerism to me

    • Isara Mo
      Reply October 3, 2019

      Isara Mo

      Thomas Henry Jr.
      Was not meant to be..
      Internet” is a new word in our dictionaries…and is not Biblical too..

    • Thomas Henry Jr.
      Reply October 3, 2019

      Thomas Henry Jr.

      Isara Mo not sure what you mean

    • Isara Mo
      Reply October 4, 2019

      Isara Mo

      Thomas Henry Jr.
      Sorry Tom i misquoted you …I believe your above post was not directed to me .
      I responded in haste.Apologies

  • Louise Cummings
    Reply October 3, 2019

    Louise Cummings

    I don’t believe they should. I think it’s wrong.

  • Troy Day
    Reply October 3, 2019

    Troy Day

    RT Rick Ferguson some people just love their sin so much that convince themselves it’s ok to stay in it

  • Troy Day
    Reply December 10, 2019

    Troy Day

    TRUE

  • Ken Van Horn
    Reply December 10, 2019

    Ken Van Horn

    None of the Apostles required that believers take the vows of a Nazirite to receive Christ. So either they weren’t Christians or you aren’t teaching Christian doctrine.

    • Troy Day
      Reply December 10, 2019

      Troy Day

      many commanded the cult to Mary but do you believe that too?

    • Ken Van Horn
      Reply December 10, 2019

      Ken Van Horn

      I have no objection if you or anyone else wants to forsake all alcohol or make yourself a Rechabite, but do not confuse your personal conviction or your personal mark of devotion to God with Christian doctrine and Scripture. I commend you for your devotion to God, but the touchstone is Christ, not alcohol.

    • Troy Day
      Reply December 11, 2019

      Troy Day

      Ken Van Horn SO you drink and get in the pulpit right after ? I dont get it Melvin Harter

    • Ken Van Horn
      Reply December 11, 2019

      Ken Van Horn

      Troy Day I fast before I get in the pulpit.

    • Melvin Harter
      Reply December 11, 2019

      Melvin Harter

      A Christian does not drink intoxicating or alcoholic drinks. If they do so, they are not a Christian. Personal conviction has nothing to do with it.

    • Ken Van Horn
      Reply December 11, 2019

      Ken Van Horn

      Melvin Harter You seem to confuse drunkenness with drinking alcohol. We are commanded to not be drunken; we are not commanded to not drink.

      Now if you cannot drink without turning into a drunk, you absolutely should not drink alcohol.

    • Melvin Harter
      Reply December 11, 2019

      Melvin Harter

      Ken Van Horn Every drunkard always started with his first drink.

    • Ken Van Horn
      Reply December 12, 2019

      Ken Van Horn

      Melvin Harter Every glutton begins with his first bite of food. Let your moderation be known to all men.

    • Melvin Harter
      Reply December 12, 2019

      Melvin Harter

      Ken Van Horn My Brother, there is; however, a major difference that must be pointed out. Everyone MUST eat to stay alive. But no one has to drink alcohol, or even take the first drink in order to live.

    • Melvin Harter
      Reply December 12, 2019

      Melvin Harter

      Ken Van Horn Really with your thought of moderation, it implies that SIN is okay, AS LONG AS IT IS IN MODERATION. Every true child of God knows that fact is not true. God will always judge sin, even small or little sins, as well as secret sins. I say, “Get out of the sinning business and really live for God as we should.”

    • Troy Day
      Reply December 12, 2019

      Troy Day

      Melvin Harter WHAT moderation Melvin Harter How can a drunk person moderate themselves Does the BIBLE say anything about adultery with moderation ? Says RUN…

  • Earl Jensen
    Reply December 10, 2019

    Earl Jensen

    real Christians use real wine every Divine Service. Jesus turned water into real wine.

    • Earl Jensen
      Reply December 10, 2019

      Earl Jensen

      my Grandfather hated distilled spirits “whiskey was the work of the devil only made to get people drunk” but beer and wine are natural food. No food should be consumed in excess.

    • Troy Day
      Reply December 11, 2019

      Troy Day

      Earl Jensen probably not far from the truth BUT would you listen to Ken Van Horn preach right after drinking? BTW beer is brewed not natural and wine is fermented

    • Earl Jensen
      Reply December 11, 2019

      Earl Jensen

      Troy Day would you join me in Georgetown, TX at the local brewery for the monthly pint with the Pastor? Third Saturday every month.

    • Troy Day
      Reply December 11, 2019

      Troy Day

      Earl Jensen absolutely NOT Alan Smith theology on tap has been long rejected in this group as the WORD demands our soberness. It is at such drunk meets where most heresies of our times were born Good luck with GOD

    • Earl Jensen
      Reply December 11, 2019

      Earl Jensen

      Troy Day First recorded miracle Jesus turned water into wine.

    • Troy Day
      Reply December 11, 2019

      Troy Day

      Earl Jensen you can make it happen if we come?

    • Ken Van Horn
      Reply December 11, 2019

      Ken Van Horn

      Troy Day Do you know why most churches in America meet at 11 AM on Sunday morning?

      Martin Luther was a night owl who loved his beer and he and other men of God would gather and discuss the Scriptures late into the night.

      Eleven AM is as late as you can gather and still call it “Morning Mass.”

    • Troy Day
      Reply December 11, 2019

      Troy Day

      Ken Van Horn so you can turn water into wine?

    • Ken Van Horn
      Reply December 11, 2019

      Ken Van Horn

      Troy Day Plant grapes, add water. Squeeze grapes into a cup and it will quickly turn to wine. So God regularly turns water into wine.
      Men turn wine back into water. Drink the wine… go take a leak.

    • Louise Cummings
      Reply December 11, 2019

      Louise Cummings

      Amen to what stroud post said.

  • RichardAnna Boyce
    Reply December 11, 2019

    RichardAnna Boyce

    REAL CHRISTIANS DO NOT DRINK ANY ALCOHOL in front of weak believers, if alcohol would be a stumbling block to those believers maturing in their Christian faith.

    • Ken Van Horn
      Reply December 11, 2019

      Ken Van Horn

      RichardAnna Boyce What is the difference between a Baptist and a Methodist? The Methodists say hi to each other at the liquor store.

  • Ken Van Horn
    Reply December 11, 2019

    Ken Van Horn

    Major on the majors and minor on the minors. Being a Christian is not about what we eat or drink and reducing it to that transforms you into something akin to judaizers.

  • Troy Day
    Reply December 11, 2019

    Troy Day

    RichardAnna Boyce you CANNOT expect non-ministers like Ken Van Horn and the other texan feller who started the brew-ha-ha to anticipate other people’s reaction Especially an AAA recovery who comes to church in looks for a working example Daniel J Hesse

    • Ken Van Horn
      Reply December 12, 2019

      Ken Van Horn

      Troy Day This brouhaha was begun by you posting something so outlandish and unbiblical that I felt compelled to respond.

      I have been a pastor for 29 years.

      Now my weakness is that I rarely focus on the who. I focus on the what. But I would be emphatic in an AA group that each of them had already proven they had no moderation in this matter so they should avoid drinking alcohol or they endanger their souls.

    • Troy Day
      Reply December 12, 2019

      Troy Day

      Ken Van Horn Here is the truth of the matter

      there is NOT a SINGLE verse in the whole NT condoning the us of alcohol Even Jesus said He would not drink the fruit of the grapevine until NEW in the KINGDOM

      all your other arguments would be either OT, or cultural or some divination from the BIBLE

      I have no trouble discussing ALL related NT scriptures with you on the topic IF you got the time BUT first I need to make sure you are sober and not drunk Because discussing Bible verses on drinking with a drunk person is about as good as discussing with a drug addict without recovery Joe Absher Melvin Harter know what I am talking about here

    • Joe Absher
      Reply December 12, 2019

      Joe Absher

      If you wait until they’re clean sober you may preach their funeral but you’ve lost your first love and maybe door that God has or will open . but sure it’s a cute jibe .

    • Troy Day
      Reply December 13, 2019

      Troy Day

      Joe Absher we may have lost Ken Van Horn

  • David A Dawson
    Reply December 13, 2019

    David A Dawson

    The Bible tells that Jesus drank wine. I believe he sip the wine. In another bible verse says ” drink a little wine for your stomach “. I have gave up alcohol because it was an addication.

    • Troy Day
      Reply December 14, 2019

      Troy Day

      The BIBLE ALSO tells us JESUS said Himself he shall NOT drink wine no more Shall we NOT do the same?

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