What do you think about doctrine of oneness?

What do you think about doctrine of oneness?
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Joseph D. Absher Where’s your evidence?
Tekendra Bokati in scripture
Joseph D. Absher Tekendra Bokati  what scripture?
Troy Day Christopher Noel Boggess may have some experience with oneness scriptures
Christopher Noel Boggess Troy day evedince for what
Christopher Noel Boggess Im not oneness
Dan Irving “Oneness” is a misnomer.  What you really mean is “Jesus Name Only Pentecostalism.”
Robbie Asbury Now its often call one God apostolic pentecostals
Dan Irving I’m sure that’s of their own devise, as it is still cloaks their signature doctrine.
Ricky Grimsley If it is a cult, then why does the Holy Ghost move there?
Dan Irving Ricky Grimsley  Yes, they engage in doctrinal error.  All assemblies do, to some extent.  But I believe “cult” is taking the criticism way too far.  The power resides in the lifting up of THE CURE.  Where the name of Jesus is proclaimed, there is power.  If Trinitarian denominations lifted up the name of Jesus to the extent they do, they would know the power, as well.
Ricky Grimsley I agree
Ricky Grimsley I think both oneness and trinitarians have holes in their philosophies and we should give each other the grace to keep searching and clarifying our positions with being called heretics.
Dan Irving Very good point!
Lyn Wilson Dan Irving, oneness pentecostals treat the name of Jesus like a talisman, and their baptisms as a magical incantation of sorts.  They believe they are the only ones with the Holy Spirit and the only ones who can be trusted to correctly interpret the bible.  I’ve been on a forum with them now for about five years, and they just aren’t like other Christians.
Dan Irving Lyn Wilson I know the teaching of EW Kenyon treated the name of Jesus this way, and that it infected Pentecostalism, resulting in the WOF movement, but I’m not aware to what extent this is true for Oneness Pentecostals.  The only personal contact I had with them was one or two services attended many years ago when I was young.
Joseph Kidwell Dan Irving, I agree with you on WOF. You’re comments on Oneness as well as Ricky Grimsley’s are correct as well.
Lyn Wilson Dan Irving, I had no contact with oneness pentecostals at all until I joined a oneness forum about four years ago.  When I was growing up in the AOG, my mother would occasionally talk about “Jesus Only” people in passing and I know that she didn’t think much of them, but I never really pursued any understanding of them.  The forum I joined is a real eye-opener.  You will see them write things every day that are real head scratchers.  Essentially, they feel they are walking, talking apostles whose opinions should be deferred to at every opportunity, and they have a transparent hatred for people who don’t see scripture theyir way.  They seem to believe that the phrase ” in the name of” means “repeat the name in an incantation”.
Joseph Kidwell Lyn Wilson, you paint with too broad of a brush. That may be true of the UPCI, but is not true of many of the African-American organizations including the one that I’m a part of.
Lyn Wilson Joseph Kidwell that may be true.  I’ve never actually met a oneness pentecostal.  Maybe their forum draws the crazies.
Dan Irving Lyn Wilson Such a large and critical component of the Pentecostal history and condition; yet I know so little about it!  I’ll have to do some exploration and research.
Lyn Wilson Dan Irving, if you want a taste of what they are like, join the facebook group  WWGS.  You’ll be astonished.
Dan Irving Lyn Wilson I’m afraid I wouldn’t last very lost as a member. 🤐
Robbie Asbury its crazy to hear the different views of oneness folks vs trinitarian…..both sides call each other heretical or cults, oneness calls trinitarians sell outs to paganism  and how constantine changed things they say
Lyn Wilson Oneness pentecostals feel that they alone should be trusted to understand scripture and correctly apply it.
Joseph Kidwell As does the other side.
Brody Pope Nice people. Just sincerely misled.
Ricky Grimsley I have two upci pastors that work for me. I believe about 95 percent what they do. We just call it different things.
Robbie Asbury I spent 20 yrs in UPC , its very close in many ways
Robbie Asbury however now the UPC is changing alot from what they used to be and have had some big splits, primarily over holiness standards, social media, tv, internet…..the older ways are being rejected by the younger alot, old UPC was much stricter and to many legalistic
Brody Pope A UPC friend of mine told me I needed to be baptized in Jesus name. I told her that I had been baptized twice already, why again in Jesus name? She responded “you just need to”. I then asked her whether or not I was saved. She never answered.
Steve Maxwell Yep, some of them do not believe we are saved, unless we observe Acts 2:38.
Lyn Wilson Brody Pope, Oneness pentecostals consider the baptism confession no different from what others would call a magical incantation.  We all know what the phrase “in the name of” means.  We know it means to do something by the power and authority of someone else, by their order, identifying with them, or in their stead. Oneness pentecostals believe that “in the name of” means “repeat the name in a specified incantation.  So, if the preacher says over you, “I baptize you in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit”, you haven’t really been baptized in the eyes of God.  God is looking for the special “I baptize you in the name of Jesus Christ” incantation, and nothing else will do.It is just not possible to have an honest disagreement on scripture, with oneness pentecostals.  Any disagreement with them is due to some ethical, cognitive, or spiritual deficit on your part.  It’s really quite amusing.
Angel Ruiz Its total different gospel…Oneness Jesus is not the biblical Jesus… For most orthodox Christians, the Oneness movement occupies a kind of cloudy no man’s land between orthodox Christianity and the various groups that, because of their beliefs and practices, are decidedly not orthodox…Sadly, it’s likely that most Christian laypeople, if they were presented with the orthodox view and the Oneness churches’ view, would either shrug off the differences as extremely minor or would not even be able to grasp them. Fortunately, the National Association of Evangelicals, Pentecostal World Fellowship, and Pentecostal Fellowship of North America rightly find Oneness Pentecostals too far removed from classical orthodoxy to include in their ranks.
Jevan Little And we are forever grateful to be excluded from your Ecumenicalism
Jevan Little
Angel Ruiz Jevan Little  The fact that Pentecostals that share the same doctrine come together you call Ecumenicalism?So when the upci and Pentecostal Assembly of the world come together is that ecumenicalism?
Jevan Little No, it was a joke. If you read through this forum you’ll see mentions of directions Trinitarians are going towards Ecumenicalism with the rest of Christianity We don’t really care that your groups exclude us
Steve Maxwell I debate Oneness folks every day on WWGS. I believe calling them a cult takes it too far. They are saved….even if half of them don’t believe we are.
Angel Ruiz Would u say morons and JW are saved too?
Jevan Little Wow. Angel Ruiz do you think Oneness are not saved?
Angel Ruiz Jevan Little can you tell me what are the essentials for salvation?
Steve Maxwell Angel, admire your Christian love for Mormons. The answer to your question is that I don’t believe neither Mormon or JW doctrine will lead us to Jesus.  However, Jesus can still break through and get to some.Angel Ruiz, please show me the scriptures that require us to have a perfect understanding of the Godhead to be saved.Somehow these “unsaved” Oneness folks are filled with the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues.
Angel Ruiz Steve Maxwell  a have seen Catholics who was filled with the spirit and speak in tongues now does that mean they’re saved
Jevan Little So…if I’m understanding Angel Catholics and Oneness are unsaved…even though they are filled with the Spirit
Angel Ruiz Jevan Little  well I asked you what are the essentials for salvation
Jevan Little I know you did. You didn’t answer me so I ignored you
Angel Ruiz Jevan Little your question was if I believe that Oneness Pentecostals are not saved…. well you don’t know the answer to that question…That is why I asked you the essentials for salvation
Steve Maxwell Angel Ruiz , are you going to explain how someone could be Baptized in the Holy Spirit and not be saved.
Jevan Little And I still don’t know the answer lol
Angel Ruiz Steve Maxwell are you under the impression that people who are baptized in the Holy Spirit can be singled out as saved?
Angel Ruiz Jevan Little well let’s go Clarity to the question can you list the essentials for salvation
Steve Maxwell Just off of the top of my head. I can’t recall anyone be Baptized in the Holy Spirit and then getting saved.
Angel Ruiz Steve Maxwell where Ananias and Sapphira part of the church?
Steve Maxwell So Angel Ruiz, please explain how the Holy Spirit enters into our soul, without conviction.
Steve Maxwell You can’t tell from the scriptures whether they were ever saved or just used the church to build up their esteem. There is definitely no indication that they were filled with the Holy Spirit.
Angel Ruiz Steve Maxwell Ananias and Sapphira we believers…Their story is told in the context of the actions of “all the believers” (Acts 4:32). They knew of the Holy Spirit (Acts 5:3), and Ananias’s lie could have been an earlier promise that he would give the whole amount of the sale to the Lord. But the best evidence that they were children of God may be that they received discipline: “If you are not disciplined and everyone undergoes discipline then you are not legitimate, not true sons and daughters at all” (Hebrews 12:8; 1 Corinthians 5:12).Ananias and his wife had conspired to garner the accolades of the church; but their conspiracy led to the sin unto death.
Matthew Freeman Cult
Steve Maxwell Most of them believe in what is called Modalism. Where there is one God who has three different modes. They frequently claim that Jesus is the Father.
Anthony McCabe Tekendra Bokati ~I wouldn’t go as far as calling them a “Cult” as such BUT I would say they are more on the side of “misguided” or in denial of what is obviously Scripturally explained throughout the Word of God. The “Oneness Pentecostalism”, also known as the “Jesus Only” movement or oneness theology, teaches that there is only one God, but denies the tri-unity of God. In other words, oneness theology does not recognize the distinct embodiments of the “One” Almighty Godhead of Father, Son, and Spirit. It has various forms—some see Jesus Christ as the one God, who sometimes manifests Himself as the Father or the Holy Spirit. The core doctrine of Oneness Pentecostal / Jesus Only is that Jesus is the Father and Jesus is the Spirit. There is one God who reveals Himself in different “modes.”This teaching of the Jesus Only / Oneness Pentecostals has been around for centuries, in one form or another, as modalism. Modalism teaches that God operated in different forms or modes at different times—sometimes as the Father, sometimes as the Son, and sometimes as the Holy Spirit. But passages like Matthew 3:16-17, where two or all three Persons of the Godhead are present, contradict the modalistic view. Modalism was condemned as heretical as early as the second century A.D. The early church strongly contended against the view that God is strictly a singular person who acted in different forms at different times. They argued from Scripture that the tri-unity of God is evident in that more than one Person of the Godhead is often seen simultaneously, and they often interact with one another (examples: Genesis 1:26; 3:22;11:7; Psalm 2:7; 104:30; 110:1; Matthew 28:19; John 14:16). Oneness Pentecostalism / Jesus Only doctrine is “as it seems” unbiblical.The concept of the tri-unity of God, on the other hand, is present throughout Scripture. It is not a concept that is easily grasped by the finite mind. And because man likes everything to make sense in his theology, movements such as the Jesus Only movement—not to mention the Jehovah’s Witnesses—regularly arise to try to explain the nature of God. Of course, this simply cannot be done without doing violence to the biblical text. Christians have come to accept that God’s nature is not subject to the limitations we might like to put on Him. We simply believe Him when He says, “‘For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,’ declares the LORD. ‘As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts”‘ (Isaiah 55:8-9). If we can’t understand His thoughts and ways, we accept that we cannot fully understand His nature, either.Recommended Resource: Making Sense of the Trinity: Three Crucial Questions by Millard Erickson.Shalom and blessings to you and all.
Steve Maxwell Have there been any enclaves of Oneness that you know of, existing between the fourth and twentieth centuries.
Anthony McCabe I think the earist recorded would be around the mid to 1920s time BUT you can actually research such things online. Though I will have a little search myself on this?!
Steve Maxwell I’ve found some evidence a little before then, but the reason I ask is that they lay claim to believing that the Apostles and early church being Oneness.  They believe that the “evil” Catholic church instituted the pagan belief of the Trinity.
Anthony McCabe Steve Maxwell ~I DO agree of the “Catholic Church” being a little cultish in their ways and that’s NOT a personal dig at the attendees of that Church as I believe they have been “unfortunately” mislead and misguided.I also know of the Catholic Church’s tampering of the “Word of God” though only slightly in comparison to the whole.And talking about misguidance (misunderstanding) the “Triune God” is NOT a claim of Three Different God’s BUT “One Almighty Godhead” and within that “One” Almighty Godhead are the Son, Father and the Spirit.Just like a (mere) Man “though just One person” can be ALL of a husband to someone, a father to someone and also a son to someone, then so AND all the more so “Almighty God” can be Three in One of and in the “One Godhead”. “I mean” who are We to limit Almighty God?.Plus, in Chapter One of Genesis, it talks of the “SPIRIT” of God hovering over the waters. A little later on God goes on to say; let “US” make humanity in “OUR” image, which is a CLEAR implication He wasn’t all alone up there!Shalom and blessings to you
Steve Maxwell They get really frustrated and accuse you of mocking God, when you say that according their beliefs God sent himself, was greater than himself, spoke of himself in the third person all of the time, prayed to himself, forsakes himself and doesn’t understand why.If you really want to tick off someone who is oneness, this is the ticket.
Jessica Matkin Exodus 20:3-5 King James Version (KJV)3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.In Acts 19, there were certain people who already believed on Jesus Christ, but had not yet received the Holy Ghost into their hearts. The apostle Paul knew the correct way to receive the Holy Ghost, so he asked them, “Unto what then were ye baptized?” And they said, “Unto John’s baptism.” (Acts 19:3) Paul saw that they were not baptized according to Peter’s commandment in Acts 2:38, so he instructed them to be re-baptized in the Name of the Lord Jesus. Then, as promised, they received the Holy Ghost.So, why did the disciples baptize in the Name of Jesus when Jesus, Himself, told them to baptize in the Name (not “names”) of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost? (Matt 28:19) Did they make a mistake? No! They did exactly as they were instructed Philippians 2:6-7 says that, although Jesus was “in very nature God, He did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.” Colossians 2:9 says, “In Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form.” And there is no such a thing in the Bible as anybody ever being baptized in the name of the Father, Son, Holy Ghost; because there is no such a thing. Father’s no name; and Son’s no name; and Holy Ghost is no name; but the Name of the Father, Son, Holy Ghost is the Lord Jesus Christ.John 14:9-10, Jesus said, “Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.”
Brody Pope Actually the name if the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost is Jehovah.
Anthony McCabe Brody Pope ~Contrary to what some Christians believe (and at least one cult), Jehovah is not the Divine Name revealed to Israel. The name Jehovah is a product of mixing different words and different alphabets of different languages. Due to a fear of accidentally taking God’s name in vain (Leviticus 24:16), the Jews basically quit saying it out loud altogether. Instead, when reading Scripture aloud, the Jews substituted the tetragrammaton YHWH with the word Adonai (“Lord”). Even in the Septuagint (the Greek translation of the Old Testament), the translators substituted Kurios (“Lord”) for the Divine Name. Eventually, the vowels from Adonai (“Lord”) or Elohim (“God”) found their way in between the consonants of YHWH, thus forming YaHWeH. But this interpolation of vowels does not mean that was how God’s name was originally pronounced. In fact, we aren’t entirely sure if YHWH should have two syllables or three.Any number of vowel sounds can be inserted within YHWH, and Jewish scholars are as uncertain of the real pronunciation as Christian scholars are. Jehovah is actually a much later (probably 16th-century) variant. The word Jehovah comes from a three-syllable version of YHWH, YeHoWeH. The Y was replaced with a J (although Hebrew does not even have a J sound) and the W with a V, plus the extra vowel in the middle, resulting in JeHoVaH. These vowels are the abbreviated forms of the imperfect tense, the participial form, and the perfect tense of the Hebrew being verb (English is)—thus the meaning of Jehovah could be understood as “He who will be, is, and has been.”So, what is God’s Name, and what does it mean? The most likely choice for how the tetragrammaton was pronounced is “YAH-way,” “YAH-weh,” or something similar. The name Yahweh refers to God’s self-existence. Yahweh is linked to how God described Himself in Exodus 3:14, “God said to Moses, ‘I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: “I AM has sent me to you.”’” God’s name is a reflection of His being. God is the only self-existent or self-sufficient Being. Only God has life in and of Himself. That is the essential meaning of the tetragrammaton, YHWH.Shalom and blessings to you brother
James Armstrong Then why is Jesus the only name by which men are saved?
Brody Pope Because it’s through Jesus that we have access to the Father.
Steve Maxwell Here’s your problem with this tortured logic,Jessica. Oneness folks basically believe that the Apostles debunked Jesus.Jesus is the best teacher to walk the face of the Earth and he would know how to never lead people astray by using words incorrectly.  We know this because he is omnipresent, even in time. Jesus would k bbn ow the effect his words would have through the centuries. I find it hard to believe that Jesus would utter words that would lead 99.5% of all Christians astray, when he gave instructions for the words to utter during baptism. Christians know why they are being baptized and Jesus know our heart. We don’t have to utter a perfect incantation to be saved.
Anthony McCabe James Armstrong ~Is Jesus (Yeshua) the Only Way to Heaven?(writings/video)https://www.gotquestions.org/Jesus-only-way.html
Anthony McCabe James Armstrong ~Jesus saves, but who is Jesus?Most people understand that Jesus was a man who lived in Israel approximately 2,000 years ago. Virtually every religion in the world views Jesus as a good teacher and/or a prophet. And while those things are most definitely true of Jesus, they do not capture who Jesus truly is, nor do they explain how or why Jesus saves. Jesus is God in human form (John 1:1, 14). Jesus is God, come to Earth, as a true human being (1 John 4:2). God became a human being in the person of Jesus in order to save us. That brings up the next question: why do we need to be saved?Jesus saves, but why do we need to be saved?The Bible declares that every human being who has ever lived has sinned (Ecclesiastes 7:20; Romans 3:23). To sin is to do something, whether in thought, word, or deed, that contradicts God’s perfect and holy character. Because of our sin, we all deserve judgment from God (John 3:18, 36). God is perfectly just, so He cannot allow sin and evil to go unpunished. Since God is infinite and eternal, and since all sin is ultimately against God (Psalm 51:4), only an infinite and eternal punishment is sufficient. Eternal death is the only just punishment for sin. That is why we need to be saved.Jesus saves, but how does He save?Because we have sinned against an infinite God, either a finite person (us) must pay for our sins for an infinite amount of time, or an infinite Person (Jesus) must pay for our sins one time. There is no other option. Jesus saves us by dying in our place. In the person of Jesus Christ, God sacrificed Himself on our behalf, paying the infinite and eternal penalty only He could pay (2 Corinthians 5:21; 1 John 2:2). Jesus took the punishment that we deserve in order to save us from a horrible eternal destiny, the just consequence of our sin. Because of His great love for us, Jesus laid down His life (John 15:13), paying the penalty that we had earned, but could not pay. Jesus was then resurrected, demonstrating that His death was indeed sufficient to pay the penalty for our sins (1 Corinthians 15).Jesus saves, but whom does He save?Jesus saves all who will receive His gift of salvation. Jesus saves all those who fully trust in His sacrifice alone as the payment for sin (John 3:16; Acts 16:31). While Jesus’ sacrifice was perfectly sufficient to pay for the sins of all humanity, Jesus only saves those who personally receive His most precious of gifts (John 1:12).Shalom and blessings to you
James Armstrong Brody Pope  so you want his access but not his name?
James Armstrong These post are what Paul warned is about. Endless questions and vain jangling. All I know is I attend a church where the blind see, the sick are healed and People are baptized in Jesus name and receive the Holy Ghost. With biblical evidence and not some crazy man traditions.
Christopher Noel Boggess I dont think its a cult i think they just dont understand scripture and have been taught wrong
Jevan Little Tekendra, define Oneness theology
Bill Terrell They strain out a gnat and swallow a camel at least the ones I was around,you don’t have to break down the God head to the lowest common denominator to get saved or to be a Christian just believe Jesus is the son of God and died for your sins..years ago as a youngster I got saved in prison got filled with the Holy Ghost with the evidence of prophecy/visions/and tongues,the prison I was in had five different services a week I loved to attend church every night i was on fire one of those nights was the oneness service,I went into the service excited to tell the preacher about the baptism of the HolyGhost then he drops a bombshell and starts talking their doctrine,nevertheless I attended their service but every Time I went I would get a terrible headache and I would feel a strong urge not to attend that service in which only a couple of inmates went,but there was a lil non denomination Mexican Man who had a Monday night service and it was packed and the Spirit of the Lord was heavy and signs and wonders followed and many men were saved..im so glad God didn’t let me get caught up in that bondage..
Diana Kay Miller Sheek False doctrine.
Jevan Little Can anyone explain Oneness Theology?
Christopher Noel Boggess That jesus is the father
Jevan Little That’s not a theology. That’s a slogan.
Christopher Noel Boggess Its crazy the denonce the trinity and claim the are one person
Jevan Little That’s not a theology either. It’s safe to say you probably don’t really understand the theology
Christopher Noel Boggess I do not believe oneness theology btw
Christopher Noel Boggess Theology is a believe system
Jevan Little You don’t know what Oneness Theology is.
Jevan Little I know you don’t believe it
Christopher Noel Boggess the·ol·o·gy[THēˈälÉ™jÄ“]NOUNthe study of the nature of God and religious belief.religious beliefs and theory when systematically developed.”a willingness to tolerate new theologies” · [more]synonyms: theology · religious studies · religion · scripture
Jevan Little Yes…theology. And it seems you don’t really know Oneness Theology
Jevan Little There are books detailing it.
Lyn Wilson There are two main points to oneness theology.  One is that the phrase “in the name of” should be interpreted as “repeat the name in an incantation” of their choosing as they understand scripture.  The other main point is that oneness pentecostals feel that they are the only ones who have the influence of the Holy Spirit and therefore are the only ones capable of actually understanding the scripture.
Christopher Noel Boggess That is crasy Lyn Wilson do they realy believe that
Lyn Wilson Christopher Noel Boggess , if you don’t believe it, go on the facebook group WWGS and you will see what I mean.
Christopher Noel Boggess I was in a onwness church and they didnt teach that just jesus is the father and there is no trinity
Christopher Noel Boggess Its a dangerious doctrine because if you believe jesus is the father then you dont believe jesus is the son of god but the father
Jevan Little Christopher Noel Boggess Lyn Wilson just confused Theology with Soterology
Jevan Little Christopher Noel Boggess we teach Jesus is the Son of God. See that’s what I mean. You haven’t heard Oneness Theology.Also Lyn lies. We don’t believe in incantations. He is not a very honest person
Christopher Noel Boggess If jesus is the son of God how can he be the father
Christopher Noel Boggess It says he sent his only born son not the father sent himself
Jevan Little I didn’t say the Son is the Father
Jevan Little See what I mean. You can’t oppose a doctrine you don’t know
Christopher Noel Boggess I went to a oneness group
Christopher Noel Boggess Or church
Jevan Little I am Oneness, over 30 years. Most Trinitarians just hear sound bytes, not an actual theological system
Christopher Noel Boggess I know little on mans doctrine but know the bible
Jevan Little Good to hear
Lyn Wilson Jevan Little , you don’t believe in incantations?  Can the preacher say in a baptism, “based on your confession of faith in Jesus Christ, I baptize you in the name of the father, son, and Holy Spirit “?
Debbie Coone Lyn Wilson and, no answer…..hmm
Jevan Little Debbie Coone hmmmm.  I ANSWERED Lyn Wilson THE FIRST DOZEN TIMES. He just asks it over and over without engaging my answer The simple fact is we believe in obeying what the bible teaches us to do. Is that witchcraft? Obeying Jesus and his Apostles? No of course not.Being inflammatory like that isn’t convincing anyone but the haters
Debbie Coone Jevan Little I’m sorry; I read the entire thread, but must have missed that answer. What was it?
Jevan Little Debbie Coone I just gave it and Lyn Wilson is dragging this here from another forum you are not in.Also I don’t really need to answer my false accusers
Debbie Coone I’m….not…in…the….other….forum…..Never mind. Thanks anyway.
Lyn Wilson No, I don’t have a problem with a programmed prayer or statement.  But when someone says that only one programmed phrase can be used for a specific communication to God, it becomes a magical incantation instead of a statement made to God.  If trinitarians insisted that “I baptize you in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit” was required verbatim in every baptism, then it would be a magical incantation as well.
Steve Maxwell After debating Oneness folks, I can see that there is  a spectrum on each side of the debate that makes it very difficult to characterize.  I’ve seen the Modalist Oneness folks, who claim that the one God named Jesus operates in three different modes. ie, Jesus and the Holy Spirit is also the Father. Then you have your Mike Conns, who are Oneness, but believe that we still have the Intercessor, Jesus in Heaven and there is something a little separate between Jesus and the Father.On the Trinity side, everyone claims that there is only one God. Some, especially Catholics understand that to mean that there are three distinct separate eternal individuals.Then there is the group that I fit into. I believe in one awesome amazing God that is too amazing for us to comprehend his greatness. I know that when Jesus was on the Earth as a man,  he spoke of the Father and the Holy Spirit as beings separate from himself. I believe and worship him, in the way he explained it.Nonetheless, salvation is simple, what we should do is simple and we know what pleases God.
Joseph Kidwell While I reject Modalism, I do not believe that  the Doctrine of the Trinity answers all of our questions either. We will not be able to fully understand how God can be one, yet three until we get to the other side.
Lyn Wilson I agree, Joseph Kidwell.  One of the principles of the trinity is that God is mysterious and we don’t comprehend his entire nature.  It’s a rough estimate, and when we get to the other side we will probably find that some parts of it are wrong.  Oneness pentecostals, though, have a different take.  Their view is that salvation itself rests with agreeing with them on God’s structure.  If you don’t agree with their theology right down the line, you’re serving a “different God” than the one in the bible.
Joseph Kidwell That would be the UPCI. That’s not all Apostolics. I am an Apostolic Bishop and our organization has had a number of Trinitarian Pentecostal preachers minister at our convocation. We are the New Life Global Fellowship and are affiliated with the Apostolic Church of Jesus.
Lyn Wilson Joseph Kidwell hmmm.   Then you’re very different from the oneness pentecostals I’ve run across on these forums.
Joseph Kidwell All Apostolic groups are not the same. I have found that for the most part, the black groups are not nearly as dogmatic as the primarily white UPC.
Lyn Wilson in my experiences, it is about 50-50.  I’m debating a young black UPCI woman now who is convinced that she’s an apostle.  Her last post, in fact, was that she didn’t have opinions at all, but was just telling us what the apostles want us to do.  You find that quite often among oneness pentecostals.  It’s sort of a very bizarre type of “humble brag”.  They have these really strange beliefs but never portray them as opinions.  They are always “the word of God”.  So essentially they want to be deferred to as prophets under the guise of not really having any opinions of their own.You read what they say and how they portray themselves, and you wonder what kind of spiritual environment would create such people.
Joseph Kidwell Please note, she is UPCI.
Brent Welke When I was at seminary a few years ago, I got the shock of my life. I got ahold of the historical notes of the Council of Chalcedon.  That is where the Godhead was decided by the church at large.  They spent several months in prayer at the Chalcedon monastery. and then today’s “Trinity” was presented.  It was voted DOWN. They spent several more months in prayer and finally decided that the Godhead consisted of 3 persona, (the computer keeps correcting me but it is spelled with two n’s).  The word means “actor’s mask”.  Itinerant actors would do plays in public places, changing masks with the dialogue.  The idea of 3 persons was utterly rejected.  The actor’s mask idea is exactly what the Oneness people call “manifestations”.  Otherwise, if there are 3 persons, it is tritheism.  The irony is that, though the Oneness people thunder against the “trinity’ from their pulpits, they are the world’s last surviving Trinitarians.  We also are made in the image of God and have a body, soul and spirit..  Where are our other two persons?
Steve Maxwell I’m sure the Apostles never utter the words, Oneness or Trinity.
Angel Ruiz Source
Steve Maxwell The words are not in the Bible.
Angel Ruiz Brent Welke could you give the the source
Joseph Kidwell The whole issue of the the godhead calls for humility on our parts. Paul said “great is the mystery of Godliness”.
Troy Day Joseph how is the Father higher than Jesus ?
Joseph Kidwell As a result of Christ’s Self humbling (Phil. 2:6-8) He submitted Himself to the Father for the purpose of fulfilling His redemptive mission.
Dan Irving Jesus said, “If ye loved me ye would rejoice because I said I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.: (Jn. 14:28)
Jerome Herrick Weymouth Modalism.from Father to Son to Spirit… Never at the same time did they exist.
Angel Ruiz In the baptism of Jesus?
Jevan Little Troy Day the same way He is higher than you and I.
Troy Day We are not Jesus This seems like a poor comparison
Jevan Little No but He was HUMAN like you and I except he was without sin.
Jevan Little Oneness are not modalists
Angel Ruiz But modalists are oneness
Joseph Kidwell Wrong! My Bishop identifies as Oneness and Modalist.
Nathaniel Rodriguez No Revelation…
Jevan Little Oneness theology asserts God is Father, Son and Spirit at the same time, not sequentially 1 at a time
Angel Ruiz If that is true… That would mean that Jesus has no beginning or end…Something that oneness don’t believe
Jevan Little 1..Saying God is ALL 3 right now doesn’t mean God has always been all 32…Oneness asserts Jesus is the Eternal God, the Creator incarnate
Angel Ruiz Jevan Little so your god is mutable.Cuz my Jesus never changes…he is the same yesterday today and forevermore.
Jevan Little 1…I didn’t say God changed. His person and nature remain unchanged2..immutibility in the bible has to do with God’s promises unchanging.3…while Jesus is the same…something was different beginning around 1 or 2 A.D. can you guess what happened?
Jevan Little Angel Ruiz
Angel Ruiz Jevan Little tell me what change?
Jevan Little Notice I didn’t say Change.
Jevan Little I’ll give you a hint…it involved a Virgin
Angel Ruiz That does not implicate a change
Jevan Little I didn’t SAY there was a change. Sheeeesh
Jevan Little
Angel Ruiz So what is it
Jevan Little Jesus, who is the Eternal God, added humanity to himself when he was born from Mary.Now, before you ignore everything I wrote and quip something about not changing,  I didn’t say he chsnged
Joseph Kidwell Jevan Little, that depends on who you talk to.
Jevan Little Well I suppose the same is true of any group, but as codified in publications such as David Bernards works,  Oneness teaches God is ALL 3 now
Joseph Kidwell I have heard it preached many tiimes that Jesus is the Father in creation, the Son in redemption and the Holy Ghist in regeneration
Jevan Little Maybe So but that is not saying Jesus isn’t  all 3 at the same time
Joseph Kidwell There are different Oneness views just as there are different Trinity views.
Jevan Little Yes perhaps but as I said before. It’s codified as all 3 at the same time. Modalists teach God is just the Holy Spirit. Oneness does not
Joseph Kidwell Listen, there are many Modalists among Oneness believers. You are correct that not all are, but many are Just as there are Trinity believers who are in fact, tritheists, but not all are.
Nathaniel Rodriguez When Jesus was baptized, the Father from heaven said: this is my beloved Son…and the Holy Spirit came down upon him…the Godhead/Trinity defies the imagination…but not the Revelation of Jesus Christ that is seated at the right hand of the Father. Many leave a seminary more confused than when they went in.
Brian James Isaiah 9:6For unto us a Child is born,Unto us a Son is given;And the government will be upon His shoulder.And His name will be calledWonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Bill Terrell John 16:7 Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you.
Jerome Herrick Weymouth Yes “send Him to you” not come back as the Spirit forever
Bill Terrell 1cor15:7For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him.
Joseph Kidwell The above referenced verse is actually 1 Cor. 15: 27. now, let’s first talk about what this verse is NOT saying. It certainly is NOT saying that Christ is not co-equal and co-eternal with the Father for that would be a contradiction of the doctrine of the Trinity which teaches that the the three persons of the godhead are co-equal and co-eternal. the context is set in verse 24: “Then comes the end when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.” in other words, when the redemptive mission of the Son is complete. The Son will say, “Mission accomplished.” There will be no further need of these ‘Father/Son roles that have been assumed since the Incarnation and things will revert back to the way they were before the Incarnation. This passage also puts a dagger in the the heart of the so-called ‘Eternal Sonship doctrine. If ‘Eternal Sonship is right, then the doctrine of the Trinity falls. This is why Tinitarians like Adam Clarke and Walter Martin taught ‘Incarnational Sonship. These were simply roles taken by two members of the godhead for the purpose of securing redemption for fallen man.
Bill Terrell Thank you sir I didn’t realize I left out the 2.also I’m just sharing a scripture that speaks for itself,reading scriptures bless me.
Joseph Kidwell Bill Terrell I figured that it was just a typo. I was simply giving my take on the ex[osition of the passage. God bless you.
Bill Terrell Joseph Kidwell right on brotha pastor The Lord is good and His power is great i am thanking God that we have great men of God to lift up one another,I don’t know you sir but I’m praying that the power of God and His anointing increase in a mighty way I’m praying your ministry flourishes like never before for the glory of God in Jesus name!may His Hand of revelation be upon you without measure!get ready your about to enter a new season your about reap where you have been planting for years your about to see a harvest in the mighty name of Jesus!
Joseph Kidwell I receive that.
Jerome Herrick Weymouth Joseph Kidwell Give me 3 scriptures that say that Christ returns to his pre-incarnation state. Actual verses only…not what your interpretation says.
Dallas Mooney You know the complexity and fullness of God Huh? We have limited revelation of who he is even with the scriptures and the indwelling Holy Spirit. 3 in 1. 1 in 3. I just thank him He made it easy to get to know him. JESUS
Ricky Grimsley I feel as if the Godhead is like Body, soul and spirit. 3 will just like we have. Your flesh wants cake and you go back and forth with soul and spirit to decide whether you eat cake. God  is a spirit but Jesus is the body. Isaiah saw the lord on his throne but John says he saw Jesus?
Louise Cummings I’ve wandered about them sometimes there seems to be Scriptures they teach. Such as they was baptized in the name of the Lord. Or In the Name Of The Lord Jesus. I told my brother that believed that. About Jesus saying as He was going away. Go into all the world and preach the gospel, Baptizing them In The Name Of The Father , The Son, and The Holy Ghost. He said His Name Was Jesus. That we Baptist in s title. Not s Name. So I don’t agree with some of their teachings. I believe in the way Jesus said. But I do wonder about some of the things they teach. I don’t think I would go s far as to say they are a cult. But I have noticed that all of their messages is about Baptism. There so much more in the Bible to preach. I guess the reason is because they know people doesn’t believe in the way way they teach it.
Brent Welke In Matthew 24 the emphasis is on the name of those titles.  If not, Jesus picked 12 disobedient or incompetent apostles, because they all “disobeyed”.  All baptisms were conducted in the name of Jesus in the Book of Acts Ch. 2, 8, 10, 19.  Several Oneness churches have offered $10,000 bounties for anyone who could prove that anyone was baptized in the name of the father, son and holy ghost.  None have ever paid a dime, nor should they have.  When I baptize, I baptize in the name of Jesus “which is the name of the father, son and holy ghost” for the sake of unity, since there is no prohibition on adding more.
Jerome Herrick Weymouth O.t. names of God is Yahweh Elohim. El Shaddai,  and Yeshua and see that oneness folk ignore the names of God.

46 Comments

  • Jeffry Woolston
    Reply June 17, 2019

    Jeffry Woolston

    I feel that it takes away from the deity of the Father and Holy Spirit by attributing everything to the Son, Jesus.

  • Troy Day
    Reply June 17, 2019

    Troy Day

    When T.D. Jakes is labeled as a “modalist” it surprises of some Oneness Pentecostals that their theology proper was equated with that particular ancient heresy. Why? Well, while many Oneness Pentecostals explain their view of God using terminology and word-pictures that are essentially descriptions of modalism most of their theologians have worked hard to avoid such pitfalls. It would be argued that these efforts have been fruitless, but I think it is fair to give their best thinkers the microphone. We Trinitarians do not want people to call Trinitarianism “Tritheism” because some of us using tritheistic language to explain the Trinity. We should give the best formulated, well-articulated thinkers the right to represent their group.

    Modalism in general is the idea that Father, Son, and Spirit are three “modes” that the one uni-personal God adopts. Some people explain this as something successive (God was “the Father” to Israel, “the Son” on earth in the incarnation, and “the Spirit” after Pentecost), but this is rare.

  • Louise Cummings
    Reply June 17, 2019

    Louise Cummings

    God Himself , is the one who gave His Only Begotten Son to give His life on Calvary , to bring us a Way back to God. It took His Sin. I think that’s pretty special. Our fellow ship was broken with The Father in the Garden Of Eden. made a Way back to Him through His Son Jesus Christ. What I call a MercifulGod Myself. Thank God HisSon Jesus was willing to pay that Price , for a sinner like me.

  • Shane Vanmeter
    Reply June 17, 2019

    Shane Vanmeter

    The best exegesis of the Trinity is by Dr. James White.

    • Troy Day
      Reply June 17, 2019

      Troy Day

      James White is NO Greek scholar to be making exegesises At lest not until he graduates from Africa

    • Shane Vanmeter
      Reply June 17, 2019

      Shane Vanmeter

      Nice claim.

    • Shane Vanmeter
      Reply June 17, 2019

      Shane Vanmeter

      Troy Day You are speaking about his textual criticism degree that he is currently finishing up. Aside from that he is a well accomplished Greek scholar. He has 7 years of Greek under his belt and with all the work he has been involved in you show you dont know what you’re speaking about.

  • Shane Vanmeter
    Reply June 17, 2019

    Shane Vanmeter

    Hes also the best Apologist on the topic.

    • Troy Day
      Reply June 17, 2019

      Troy Day

      hardly the best but we will take him for now

    • Shane Vanmeter
      Reply June 17, 2019

      Shane Vanmeter

      Could you name someone more accomplished than Dr. White with all the debates with the best Islam has to offer and Catholicism and Unitarians among others. He is the one who led the fight against Roman Catholicism on church history. There is no more accomplished Apologist than Dr. White.

  • Troy Day
    Reply June 17, 2019

    Troy Day

    Stephan Webb didnt know you had fellow Oneness folks locally. From what I hear UPC numbers are way down lately and they are close to disappearing from the face of the earth

  • Vickie Embry
    Reply June 18, 2019

    Vickie Embry

    Ok what a onees?

  • Troy Day
    Reply June 18, 2019

    Troy Day

    According to classical trinitarian thought as formulated by the Cappadocian theologians of the fourth century, the one Godhead mysteriously subsists in three coequal, coeternal, coessential persons. There is communion of substance but distinction of personhood. This trinity is a perfect, inseparable union, and the persons work together in all things. The unique distinguishing characteristics of the persons are as follows: the Father is unbegotten, the Son is begotten, and the Holy Spirit is proceeding. The generation of the Son and the procession of the Holy Spirit are mysteries, however. While the persons are coequal and coeternal, the Father is in some sense the head and the origin

  • Steve Maxwell
    Reply June 18, 2019

    Steve Maxwell

    • Troy Day
      Reply June 18, 2019

      Troy Day

      sure Steve Maxwell I actually KNOW @ed stedzer and know WHY he wrote this article 🙂 Of course he is a baptist and knows nothing about real Pentecostalism. Nevermind just wanting to sell LifeWay stuff to Pentecostal churches for profit while he was the CEO 🙂 You go ahead and believe those quick google searches you prompt from non-Pentecostal sources and marketing gimmicks

      I will stick with our OFFICIAL AG stats for the US and what Bernard says about oneness in rapid decline Zachary K. Mitchell can shows us some actual stats if he’s got them

    • Zachary K. Mitchell
      Reply June 18, 2019

      Zachary K. Mitchell

      Troy Day

    • Steve Maxwell
      Reply June 18, 2019

      Steve Maxwell

      Zachary K. Mitchell 2% growth year over year is good. I had found this document as well.

    • Steve Maxwell
      Reply June 18, 2019

      Steve Maxwell

      Troy, I still haven’t seen you produce any evidence of decline of any of these organizations. Christianity is now 25% Pentecostals. An amazing accompaniment in a century. The Chicken Little claim is hollow.

    • Troy Day
      Reply June 18, 2019

      Troy Day

      Steve Maxwell are you kidding? Have you not seen the 2018 stats you were claiming dont exist? Yes Zachary K. Mitchell seems this resent growth was accredited to the NGPA and ARM

  • Steve Maxwell
    Reply June 18, 2019

    Steve Maxwell

    • Troy Day
      Reply June 18, 2019

      Troy Day

      Sure Steve Maxwell you are showing LAST century stats 🙂 You know that makes you funny right? Of course they grew in 20th century as Philip Williams showed they started only then – way much decline in oneness folk This new guy Zachary K. Mitchell can show us source of stats because Bernard stat shows decline in decades past

  • Steve Maxwell
    Reply June 18, 2019

    Steve Maxwell

    I don’t know where you live or get your info, Troy but from where I stand, Pentecostalism of all stripes is doing well. Especially compared to the old mainline churches. My church in New Mexico has recovered from a near death experience twelve years ago, to four times as large as it was two years ago. I go west to Tucson and attend one of three services at Victory AG church, where about two hundred, mainly young people go forward and receive the Holy Ghost.

    The main place that I see huge growth is in California, where I know of many who’ve matriculated from the Catholic church, into mostly the AG church.

    The surveys done by legitimate firms, such as Pew are indicating continued and perplexing growth in the Pentecostal world. So when I’ll take their word for it, not Troy’s.

    • Troy Day
      Reply June 18, 2019

      Troy Day

      This information about Ca/Nv is plain wrong. I get my stats from the official AG website as I’ve shown it to you many times and could show it again if you’ve forgotten so fast. Have plenty of connections in Ca that we can check AG decline as well Peter Vandever will tell you even Bethel is in decline none the less some 100yrs old AG congregations that are disappearing Joe Absher is boots on ground in Ca-AG I hear lots of things not in order there either Joel Roman pastors AG in Ca-hispanic and can tell the real story So is cog in CA Angel Ruiz

    • Joe Absher
      Reply June 18, 2019

      Joe Absher

      Exodus 2:22 KJV — And she bare him a son, and he called his name Gershom: for he said, I have been a stranger in a strange land.

    • Steve Maxwell
      Reply June 18, 2019

      Steve Maxwell

  • Philip Williams
    Reply June 18, 2019

    Philip Williams

    Christianity of all types is in trouble in America today. While Pentecostals have long bucked this trend, even we are in trouble. This bridges the Oneness/Trinitarian divide.

    Thus, we need to focus on what we have in common and how to better understand one another. Maybe if we humble down to better understand one another, God will do something that brings revival.

    • Stephan Webb
      Reply June 18, 2019

      Stephan Webb

      Philip Williams I preached on this Sunday…sort of. I also may need to look for a new appointment because of it. Anyway, for far too long we have built our tents at the place of revelation, and let our preferences stand in the way of our praise. It’s time to come down from the mountains. Sick people are waiting to be delivered at the base….

    • Troy Day
      Reply June 18, 2019

      Troy Day

      Well we obviously dont have the Trinity in common WHAT else is left to bridge? Any oneness would tell you you are not saved and need to be baptized in Jesus-only

    • Philip Williams
      Reply June 18, 2019

      Philip Williams

      Troy Day if we have a personal relationship with Jesus, we do have something in common. Of course that can only be the Jesus of the Bible, the faith once and for all time entrusted to the saints.

    • Troy Day
      Reply June 18, 2019

      Troy Day

      but do you have a personal relationship with Jesus ONLY?

    • Philip Williams
      Reply June 18, 2019

      Philip Williams

      Troy Day maybe you have one with another spirit. Isn’t that demon possession?

  • Troy Day
    Reply June 18, 2019

    Troy Day

    Philip Williams I do hope you are not calling to join the The Fellowship of Reconciling Pentecostals International (FRPI)

    • Philip Williams
      Reply June 18, 2019

      Philip Williams

      Troy Day who are they?

    • Troy Day
      Reply June 18, 2019

      Troy Day

      Philip Williams yeah you dont really wanna know BTW dual covenant theology talk coming in 3 2 1 – 6PM

    • Philip Williams
      Reply June 18, 2019

      Philip Williams

      Troy Day No way. They abandon Jesus just as did the old liberals. May these new liberals like John Hagee be condemned!

  • Steve Losee
    Reply June 18, 2019

    Steve Losee

    in a word: heresy.

  • Troy Day
    Reply June 19, 2019

    Troy Day

    Religious error is a broad designation embracing false
    religions, Christian cults, occult practices and false
    doctrines. Involvement with any of these sources of
    error can open the door for evil spirits. The association
    or contact need not be extensive.

    Any Christian who has had involvement with any kind
    of religious error should renounce it. In most cases
    deliverance is needed to free him of oppression. These
    religious error demons have been found to cause:
    mental confusion, binding of the mind, dullness of
    comprehension, depression, fears, physical pains,
    physical illnesses, false pride, unteachableness,
    resistance to Biblical truth and spiritual hindrances (to
    prayer, Bible reading, sermon listening, gifts of the
    Spirit and faith). Paul L. King Stephan Webb

    • Stephan Webb
      Reply June 19, 2019

      Stephan Webb

      Troy Day unteachableness is the downfall of the church today, at least from my US perspective as a pastor. No one can be taught and/or corrected.

    • Paul L. King
      Reply June 19, 2019

      Paul L. King

      Stephan Webb I agree that unteachableness is one of the downfalls of the church today, yet Scripture tells us to teach and correct. Unteachableness was a problem in the church then too.

    • Troy Day
      Reply June 19, 2019

      Troy Day

      WELL – what do we do about it?

    • Stephan Webb
      Reply June 19, 2019

      Stephan Webb

      Troy Day there’s an old bluegrass song…look it up. Let the Church Roll On. I do say that not in total seriousness.

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