In 1 John 4:2b, what does John mean by ἐν σαρκὶ ἐληλυθότα? “In flesh [and blood]” or “among humans/men”? And why is this such an important issue?
Please provide primary source(s) for any historical references.
By the way, my own view is that “John” wrote his letter to correct various misrepresentations of Jesus, such as saying that he was divine or an angel (the message of the antichrists) which he considered idolatry.
σάρξ, σαρκός, ἡ (Hom.+; ‘flesh’). ① the material that covers the bones
of a human or animal body, flesh lit. 1 Cor 15:39abcd; Hv 3, 10, 4; 3,
12, 1. The pl. (which denotes flesh in the mass [Lucian, Dial. Mort.
10, 5], whereas the sing. rather denotes the substance.—Herodas 4, 61;
Gen 40:19; 1 Km 17:44; 4 Km 9:36; PsSol 4:19; TestJob 13:5; Philo;
Jos., Ant. 12, 211; Just., A I, 26, 7; Mel., P. 52, 383; Ath. 34, 2)
Lk 24:39 v.l.; Rv 19:18, 21 (4 [6] Esdr [POxy 1010, 16] cannibalism
out of hunger, sim. Mel., P. 52, 383; Quint. Smyrn. 11, 245: the
σάρκες of the slain are food for the birds) B 10:4; metaph. Rv 17:16.
It decays 1 Cl 25:3; cp. Ac 2:31 (cp. 2a below). Normally gives forth
an evil odor when burned MPol 15:2. W. bones (s. ὀστέον) 1 Cl 6:3 (Gen
2:23); Lk 24:39; Eph 5:30 v.l. (metaph.). Paul speaks of his illness
as a σκόλοψ τῇ σαρκί (s. σκόλοψ) 2 Cor 12:7. ἡ ἐν σαρκὶ περιτομή the
physical circumcision (cp. Just., D. 10, 1 al.) Ro 2:28; cp. Eph
2:11b; Col 2:13 (ἀκροβυστία 2); Gal 6:13 (ἡ σάρξ=the flesh that is
circumcised); B 9:4. Metaph.: the corrosion on the precious metals of
the rich φάγεται τὰς σάρκας ὑμῶν ὡς πῦρ Js 5:3.—Ign. describes the
elements of the Eucharist as σὰρξ (or αἷμα) Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ IRo 7:3;
IPhld 4; ISm 7:1. Also J 6:51–56 urges that one must eat the flesh
(and drink the blood) of the Human One or Son of Man (Just., A I, 66,
2; s. TPhilips, Die Verheissung der hl. Eucharistie nach Joh. 1922;
Bultmann ad loc.; AWikenhauser ’48, 105f).—His anti-Docetic position
also leads Ign. to use the concept ‘flesh (and blood) of p 915
Christ’ in other contexts as well ITr 8:1; IPhld 5:1.—For Mt 16:17;
Gal 1:16; Eph 6:12; and 1 Cor 15:50 s. 3a. ② the physical body as
functioning entity, body, physical body ⓐ as substance and living
entity (Aeschyl., Sept. 622: opp. νοῦς; Ex 30:32; 4 Km 6:30; TestAbr A
20 p. 103, 6 [Stone p. 54] πάντα τὰ μέλη τῆς σαρκός μου; w. καρδία or
ψυχή Alex. Aphr., An. p. 98, 7–10 Br.; Ps 37:8; 62:2; Eccl 2:3; Ezk
11:19; 44:7 a1.; Jos., Bell. 6, 47, Ant. 19, 325; Ar.15, 7) οὔτε ἡ
σὰρξ αὐτοῦ εἶδεν διαφθοράν Ac 2:31 (but s. 1). W. ψυχή 1 Cl 49:6 (Tat.
13:2 al.). W. καρδία Ac 2:26 (Ps 15:9).—Eph 5:29. ἑόρακαν τὸ πρόσωπόν
μου ἐν σαρκί they have seen me face to face Col 2:1. ἕως ἂν τὸν
χριστὸν ἐν σαρκὶ ἴδῃ before he had seen the Messiah in person GJs 24:4
(cp. Lk 2:26). Opp. πνεῦμα (Ath. 31:3; PGM 5, 460 ἐπικαλοῦμαί σε τὸν
κτίσαντα πᾶσαν σάρκα κ. πᾶν πνεῦμα) 1 Cor 5:5; 2 Cor 7:1; Col 2:5; 1
Pt 4:6; Hm 3:1; 10, 2, 6; cp. AcPl Ant 13:17 (=Aa, I 237, 2; s. οἶδα);
also in relation to Christ (though this is disputed) J 6:63; Hs 5, 6,
5–7; cp. 1 Ti 3:16.—ἀσθένεια τῆς σαρκός bodily ailment Gal 4:13; s.
vs. 14. ἀσθενὴς τῇ σαρκί weak in the body Hs 9, 1, 2. ὁ ἀλγῶν σάρκα
the one who is ill in body B 8:6. πάσχειν σαρκί 1 Pt 4:1b. Cp. 2 Cor
7:5. ἡ τῆς σαρκὸς καθαρότης the purity of the body Hb 9:13 (opp.
καθαρίζειν τὴν συνείδησιν vs. 14). σαρκὸς ἀπόθεσις ῥύπου 1 Pt 3:21 (s.
ῥύπος 1). The σάρξ is raised fr. the dead (s. ParJer 6:9; Theoph. Ant.
1, 7 [74, 2]) 1 Cl 26:3; 2 Cl 9:1. ἀνάστασις σαρκός AcPlCor 1:12; 2:24
(σαρκὸς ἀνάστασιν Just., D. 80, 5); cp. ἀναστήσεσθε ἔχοντες ὑγιῆ τὴν
σάρκα AcPlCor 2:32. Of the body of Christ during his earthly ministry
Eph 2:14 (JHart, The Enmity in His Flesh: Exp. 6th ser., 3, 1901,
135–41); Hb 10:20; 1 Pt 3:18; 4:1a; 1J 4:2; 2J 7; B 5:1, 10f; 6:7, 9;
7:5; 12:10; IEph 7:2; Pol 7:1; AcPlCor 2:6b. Married couples form μία
σάρξ (Gen 2:24; s. Ath. 33, 2 τὴν σάρκα πρὸς σάρκα …
κοινωνίαν.—GAicher, Mann u. Weib ein Fleisch: BZ 5, 1907, 159–65) Mt
19:5f; Mk 10:8ab; 1 Cor 6:16; Eph 5:31 (on these passages, TBurkill,
ZNW 62, ’71, 115–20). δικαιώματα σαρκός behind ‘all sorts of
ceremonial washings’ there are regulations that concern the physical
body Hb 9:10.—On ὑποτάγητε τῷ ἐπισκόπῳ ὡς ὁ Χριστὸς τῷ πατρὶ κατὰ
σάρκα IMg 13:2 s. Hdb. ad loc. and MRackl, Die Christologie des hl.
Ignatius v. Ant. 1914, 228.—πνεῦμα δυνάμεως … ὁ θεὸς … κατέπεμψεν εἰς
σάρκα τουτέστιν εἰς τὴν Μαρίαν God sent a powerful spirit (prob. a
ref. to the kind of divine breath that brought the first human being
to life [Gen 2:7]) into flesh, that is, into Mary AcPl Ha 8, 26=BMM
recto 34; s. AcPlCor 1:14. ⓑ as someth. with physical limitations,
life here on earth (ApcEsdr 4:4 p. 28, 3 Tdf. σάρκα ἀνθρωπίνην φορῶ)
θλῖψιν τῇ σαρκὶ ἕξουσιν 1 Cor 7:28. Cp. 2 Cor 4:11; Col 1:24. Of
Christ τὸ σῶμα τῆς σαρκὸς αὐτοῦ his body with its physical limitations
Col 1:22; cp. 2:11 and s. cα below (cp. En 102:5 τὸ σῶμα τῆς σαρκὸς
ὑμῶν; 1QpHab 9:2; Orig., C. Cels. 6, 29, 25).—Of human life: ἀποδημεῖν
τῆς σαρκός MPol 2:2 (s. ἀποδημέω). ἐπιμένειν ἐν τῇ σαρκί Phil 1:24.
ζῆν ἐν σαρκί vs. 22; Gal 2:20. ἐν σ. περιπατεῖν 2 Cor 10:3a. ἐν σ.
τυγχάνειν Dg 5:8a. ὄντος ἔτι ἐν σ. σου AcPlCor 1:6. τὸν ἐπίλοιπον ἐν
σ. χρόνον 1 Pt 4:2. ἡ ἐπιδημία τῆς σαρκὸς ταύτης our sojourn in life
2 Cl 5:5. ἐν τῇ σαρκί in our earthly life 8:2. ⓒ as instrument of
various actions or expressions. α. In Paul’s thought esp., all parts
of the body constitute a totality known as σ. or flesh, which is
dominated by sin to such a degree that wherever flesh is, all forms of
sin are likew. present, and no good thing can live in the σάρξ Ro 7:18
(cp. Philo, Gig. 29 αἴτιον δὲ τῆς ἀνεπιστημοσύνης μέγιστον ἡ σὰρξ καὶ
ἡ πρὸς σάρκα οἰκείωσις; Sextus 317 ἀγαθὸν ἐν σαρκὶ μὴ ἐπιζήτει. The OT
lays no stress on a necessary relationship betw. flesh as a substance,
and sin. But for Epicurus the σάρξ is the bearer of sinful feelings
and desires as well as the means of sensual enjoyment: Ep. in Plut.,
Mor. 135c; 1087bf; 1089e; 1096c αἱ τῆς σαρκὸς ἐπιθυμίαι. Also Diog. L.
10, 145. Likew. Plut. himself: Mor. 101b ταῖς τῆς σαρκὸς ἡδοναῖς;
672e; 688d; 734a; Ps.-Plut., Mor. 107f σαρκὶ καὶ τοῖς πάθεσι ταύτης;
Maximus Tyr. 33, 7a. Cp. 4 Macc 7:18 τὰ τῆς σαρκὸς πάθη; Philo, Deus
Imm. 143 σαρκὸς ἡδονή, Gig. 29; TestJud 19:4; TestZeb 9:7; ApcMos 25
[p. 14, 2 Tdf.] εἰς τὴν ἁμαρτίαν τῆς σαρκός); Ro 6:19; 7:25 (opp.
νοῦς); 8:3a, 4–9 (cp. Persius 2, 63 scelerata pulpa, which
contaminates devotion to deity), 12f; Gal 5:13, 24; Col 2:23; Jd 23;
AcPlCor 2:11, 15; Dg 6:5 (opp. ψυχή, as Plut., Mor. 101b). Opp. τὸ
πνεῦμα Ro 8:4, 5, 6, 9, 13; Gal 3:3; 5:16, 17ab; 6:8ab; J 3:6; B 10:9.
τὸ μὲν πνεῦμα πρόθυμον, ἡ δὲ σὰρξ ἀσθενής (cp. Orig., C. Cels. 2, 25,
8) Mt 26:41; Mk 14:38; Pol 7:2. σὰρξ ἁμαρτίας sinful flesh Ro 8:3b.
ἐπιθυμία (τῆς) σαρκός (cp. Maximus Tyr. 20, 9f σαρκῶν … ἐπιθυμίας) Gal
5:16; 1J 2:16; B 10:9. Pl. Eph 2:3a, cp. b; 2 Pt 2:18; cp. Ro 13:14.
τὰ ἔργα τῆς σαρκός Gal 5:19 (s. Vögtle at πλεονεξία). τὰ θελήματα τῆς
σαρκός Eph 2:3b. ὁ νοῦς τῆς σαρκός Col 2:18. τὸ σῶμα τῆς σαρκός the
body of (sinful) flesh 2:11; cp. 1:22 and s. b above (cp. Sir 23:17
σῶμα σαρκὸς αὐτοῦ; En 102:5 τῷ σώματι τῆς σαρκὸς ὑμῶν). τὰ τῆς σαρκός
what pertains to (sinful) flesh Ro 8:5b. ἐν (τῇ) σαρκὶ εἶναι be in an
unregenerate (and sinful) state Ro 7:5; 8:8f. τὰ ἔθνη ἐν σαρκί Eph
2:11a. κατὰ σάρκα εἶναι Ro 8:5a; ζῆν vs. 12b; 13; Dg 5:8b; περιπατεῖν
Ro 8:4; 2 Cor 10:2; βουλεύεσθαι 1:17; στρατεύεσθαι 10:3b; cp. IRo 8:3
(opp. κατὰ γνώμην θεοῦ). β. source of the sexual urge. The σάρξ is the
source of the sexual urge, without any suggestion of sinfulness
connected w. it ἐκ θελήματος σαρκὸς ἐγεννήθησαν J 1:13. ⓓ as someth.
attractive 2 Pt 2:10 (a Hebraism, cp. Judg 2:12; 3 Km 11:10; Sir
46:10). S. also 3b. ③ one who is or becomes a physical being, living
being with flesh ⓐ of humans person, human being: πᾶσα σάρξ every
person, everyone (LXX; TestAbr B 7 p. 112, 3 [Stone p. 72]; GrBar
4:10; ApcEsdr 7:7; ApcMos 13 [p. 7, 1 Tdf.]; Mel., P. 55, 400: for
כָּל-בָּשָׂר; s. πᾶς 1aα) Lk 3:6 (Is 40:5); J 17:2; Ac 2:17 (Jo 3:1);
1 Pt 1:24 (Is 40:6); 1 Cl 59:3; 64; 2 Cl 7:6; 17:5 (the last two Is
66:24); AcPlCor 2:6a. οὐ πᾶσα σάρξ no person, nobody (En 14:21
end.—W-S. §26, 10a; B-D-F §275, 4; 302, 1; Rob. 752) Mt 24:22; Mk
13:20; Ro 3:20 (cp. Ps 142:2 πᾶς ζῶν); 1 Cor 1:29 (μή); Gal
2:16.—Though σ. in the foll. passages refers to body in its physical
aspect, it cannot be divorced from its conjunction with αἷμα, and the
unit σὰρξ καὶ αἷμα (cp. Sir 17:31; TestAbr B 13 p. 117, 26 [Stone p.
82]; Philo, Quis Div. Rer. Her. 57; Just., D. 135, 6) refers to a
human being in contrast to God and other transcendent beings Mt 16:17;
Gal 1:16; Eph 6:12 (here vice versa, αἷ. καὶ σ.). τὰ παιδία
κεκοινώνηκεν αἵματος καὶ σαρκός the children share mortal nature Hb
2:14, but with suggestion of its frailty, as indicated by the context
with its ref. to death. Because they are the opposites of the divine
nature σὰρξ καὶ αἷμα βασιλείαν θεοῦ κληρονομῆσαι οὐ δύναται 1 Cor
15:50 (JJeremias, NTS 2, ’56, 151–59). For Jd 7 s. b next. Cp. AcPl
Ant 13, 17 (=Aa I 237, 2) σαρκί personally (s. οἶδα 2). ⓑ of
transcendent entities ὁ λόγος σὰρξ ἐγένετο J 1:14 (RSeeberg, Festgabe
AvHarnack dargebracht 1921, 263–81.—Artem. 2, 35 p. 132, 27 ἐὰν
σάρκινοι οἱ θεοὶ φαίνωνται; Synes., Dio 6 p. 45b).—Of flesh other than
human: ὀπίσω σαρκὸς ἑτέρας after another kind of flesh (cp. Judg 2:12
ὀπίσω θεῶν ἑτέρων) i.e. of divine messengers who take on σ. when they
appear to humans (so Windisch et al.; difft. Frame et al. of same-sex
activity) Jd 7. p 916
…④ human/ancestral connection, human/mortal nature, earthly
descent (Did., Gen. 144, 25) Ἀβραὰμ τὸν προπάτορα ἡμῶν κατὰ σάρκα Ro
4:1 (Just., D. 43, 7 al.). οἱ συγγενεῖς μου κατὰ σάρκα 9:3. τοὺς τῆς
σαρκὸς ἡμῶν πατέρας Hb 12:9. τὸν Ἰσραὴλ κατὰ σάρκα the earthly Israel
1 Cor 10:18 (opp. τὸν Ἰσραὴλ τοῦ θεοῦ Gal 6:16). Of natural descent
τὰ τέκνα τῆς σαρκός children by natural descent Ro 9:8 (opp. τὰ τέκνα
τῆς ἐπαγγελίας). ὁ μὲν ἐκ τῆς παιδίσκης κατὰ σάρκα γεγέννηται Gal
4:23; cp. vs. 29. μου τὴν σάρκα my compatriots Ro 11:14 (s. Gen
37:27).—Of Christ’s physical nature Ro 8:3c; Hb 5:7. Christ is
descended fr. the patriarchs and fr. David (τὸ) κατὰ σάρκα according
to the human side of his nature, as far as his physical descent is
concerned Ro 1:3 (JDunn, Jesus: Flesh and Spirit [Ro 1:3f], JTS 24,
’73, 40–68); 9:5; 1 Cl 32:2; IEph 20:2. The context of 2 Cor 11:18
includes ancestry as a reason for boasting, but σ. in this pass.
applies as well to other aspects of Paul’s career and therefore
belongs more properly in 5…
⑤ the outward side of life as determined by normal perspectives or
standards, a transf. sense of 1 and 2. Usually w. κατά indicating norm
or standard σοφοὶ κατὰ σάρκα wise (people) according to human
standards 1 Cor 1:26. καυχᾶσθαι κατὰ (τὴν) σάρκα boast of one’s
outward circumstances, i.e. descent, manner of life, etc. (cp. 11:22)
2 Cor 11:18. κατὰ σάρκα Χριστόν Christ (the Messiah) from a human
point of view or as far as externals are concerned 5:16b, cp. a (κατά
B5bβ and 7a; also VWeber, BZ 2, 1904, 178–88; HWindisch, exc. ad loc.;
Rtzst., Mysterienrel.3, 374–76; FPorter, Does Paul Claim to Have Known
the Historical Jesus [2 Cor 5:16]?: JBL 47, 1928, 257–75; RMoxon, CQR
108, 1929, 320–28). οἱ κατὰ σάρκα κύριοι those who, according to human
standards, are masters Eph 6:5; Col 3:22. ὑμεῖς κατὰ τὴν σ. κρίνετε
you judge by outward things, by externals J 8:15. Of the route taken
in one’s earthly life ἡ ὁδὸς ἡ κατὰ σάρκα IRo 9:3.—ἐν σαρκὶ πεποιθέναι
place one’s trust in earthly things or physical advantages Phil 3:3f.
εὐπροσωπῆσαι ἐν σαρκί Gal 6:12. Onesimus is a beloved brother to
Philemon καὶ ἐν σαρκὶ καὶ ἐν κυρίῳ both as a human being (=personally,
in the external relationship betw. master and slave) and as a
Christian Phlm 16. ὑμῶν δὲ ἐν σαρκὶ ἐπισκόπῳ IEph 1:3 (cp. IMg
3:2).—HWindisch, Taufe u. Sünde 1908; EBurton, ICC Gal. 1920, 492–95;
WSchauf, Sarx 1924; WBieder, Auferstehung des Fleisches od. des
Leibes?: TZ 1, ’45, 105–20. W. special ref. to Paul: Ltzm., Hdb. exc.
on Ro 7:14 and 8:11; Lohmeyer (ἁμαρτία 3a); EKäsemann, Leib u. Leib
Christi ’33; RGrant, ATR 22, ’40, 199–203; RBultmann, Theologie des
NTs ’48, 228–49 (Engl. tr. by KGrobel, ’51 I, 227–59); LMarshall,
Challenge of NT Ethics ’47, 267–70; E Schweizer, Die hellenist.
Komponente im NT sarx-Begriff: ZNW 48, ’57, 237–53; two in KStendahl,
The Scrolls and the NT, ’57: KKuhn, 94–113 and WDavies, 157–82;
JPryke, ‘Spirit’ and ‘Flesh’ in Qumran and NT: RevQ 5, ’65, 346–60;
DLys, La chair dans l’AT ’67; ASand, D. Begriff ‘Fleisch’ ’67 (Paul);
RJewett, Paul’s Anthropological Terms ’71, 49–166. On Ign.:
CRichardson, The Christianity of Ign. of Ant. ’35, esp. 49 and 61. S.
also the lit. s.v. πνεῦμα, end.—B. 202. DELG. M-M. EDNT. TW. Spicq.
Sv.
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., & Bauer, W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon
of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p.
916). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
Varnel Watson
A very interesting prophecy found ON line Bob Wizenhut Nelson Banuchi pls give us the prophetic insight you are grasping
Bob Wizenhut
I don’t have an opinion on prophecies that aren’t found in Scripture. So let’s look at what we actually see in Revelation.
Revelation 17 tells us about the harlot that rides the scarlet beast with seven heads and ten horns. Conventional wisdom has it that this harlot is Secretary Clinton.
Revelation 11 talks about God appointing two witnesses. Are they President Trump and VP Pence? If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies. The beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them. For 3 and a half days some from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial. The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth.
Some of this all seems to fit perfectly but other aspects, not so much. Are President Trump and VP Pence clothed in sackcloth?
If the above is correct then we should expect the beast to figure out a way to take President Trump down. So the prophecy above could be one possibility for the beast to rise from the pit and take down the two witnesses. But the only thing we can say with certainty is that the hand of God is on our current President protecting him.
Varnel Watson
I see – so you are taking more of a Perry Stone approach here http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/what-america-should-know-about-a-woman-president-the-prophecy-about-america-part-1-of-4/
Alan Smith
Troy Day PLEASE tell me, you aren’t still snowed about wanting Hillary to be the next POTUS, are you?
Varnel Watson
I rather have more than 2 bad choices in 2020
Alan Smith
I implore you and other voters to compare the Political Party PLATFORM, don’t just focus on WHO is running for POTUS!!! Trump/Hillary/Schumer/Biden/Michelle Obama/Warren/Sanders WHOEVER it may be, CAN’T… just CAN’T stand alone and do EXACTLY what he or she wants to do.
They will have to play along with partisan and bi-partisan politics, my friends
https://gop.com/platform/
https://democrats.org/about/party-platform/
Alan Smith
I’m sure both platforms will be updated before the 2020 Primaries are decided. Be careful what you ASK for, Israel asked for a king and a judge, and that wasn’t God’s design.
Varnel Watson
Trump is NOT GOP – I hope we are clear on this If he was running Reagan GOP policies like
open markets
open borders
we wouldnt even be having this conversation because how pointless to find difference between the GOP elect candidate and the the GOP itself – simply pointless Let us all remember that Trump only made it because GOP had no winning choice in 2016
Alan Smith
NO ONE has ran Reagan GOP!
ALL the candidates use his name (in vain) while they are running for the nomination…but NO GOP POTUS (Bush) nor GOP Congress(wo)man has done it. Can you find one?
Varnel Watson
exactly – hence my point Maybe we vote you in 2020 so you can run a Reagan GOP and win for us all
Bob Wizenhut
Troy Day – summarize his 4 hours of preaching with a 4 sentence paragraph and I’ll tell you if that fits what I’m saying.
Varnel Watson
summarize and tell us then
Robert Erwine
No she will NOT.
Varnel Watson
is this YOUR prophecy about that?
Robert Erwine
Yup . Bank on it.
Varnel Watson
hope you got a good track record
Robert Erwine
Troy Day if was bad I would be taking a dirt nap
Varnel Watson
why is Nancy wearing a white t-shirt (appears)
Robert Erwine
Troy Day what?
Varnel Watson
fix POTUS crooked tie when he passes by
Robert Erwine
Troy Day stay on topic, not the TV
Varnel Watson
this is the topic for the next 40min brother
Robert Erwine
Troy Day bet those vets want one last chance to kill a nazi
Varnel Watson
hahah short guy was killing me here 🙂 waving BUZZ tie way too short – did he leave the rest on the moon?
Varnel Watson
POTUS said doubled the child credit Link Hudson
J a b e z©
May be.. Um.. Yes
Link Hudson
no, she missed her chance
Varnel Watson
did you read the prophecy ?
Varnel Watson
Link Hudson you dont have the best prophecy track record either 🙂
Varnel Watson
naah just a friendly observation over the internet
Link Hudson
Name one prophecy I gave. I was responding to the question.
Link Hudson
I don’t see how H. Clinton could legally becomre VP now unless she replaced Pence and served under Trump.
I have heard ‘words’ about preidents down the line.
But I am believing God to answer my long-standing prayer that she never become president iof the United States of America.
Varnel Watson
are you commenting on the “prophecy” ???
Link Hudson
Yes.
Link Hudson
Legally, the scenario could happen if Clinton replaced Pence as VP or if she were VP on the next Democratic ticket (unlikely) and the nominee died before taking office.
But other prophecies about presidents later on in history couldn’t be true if she were the last one. One prophecy in the prophetic movement isn’t necessarily consistent with another.
Varnel Watson
are you saying as per this prophecy in OP?
Alden Lopez Salguero
She is over!!!
Varnel Watson
these ppl are never over
Alan Smith
I SURE HOPE NOT!!!
John B. Gaither
No
Varnel Watson
http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/what-do-you-think-of-this-ministry-here/
Robert Spurlock
I don’t think she will even get the Democratic nomination.
William Pankey
No she don’t even believe in God
Gerald R Smith
Might get drafted for Antichrist; Bill as false prophet
Varnel Watson
is this what Trump was drafted for? Nelson Banuchi – I had to ask Alan Smith
Jerome Herrick Weymouth
She won’t get our family’s vote!!!
Connie Wolfe Beck
Nope. She said she will not run. Don’t think she can handle defeat twice.
Varnel Watson
https://ivn.us/2018/11/12/democratic-pollsters-hillary-clinton-will-run-again-in-2020/
Robert Erwine
even democrats think Hillary sucks , why do you think so lost ?
Varnel Watson
not sure – vote fraud? the Russians? – take a pick 🙂 I am more concerned with the prophecy in OP
Robert Erwine
cheated like the patriots ?
Varnel Watson
we should talk about 2019 taxes next in this thread It’s a mess Jim Price Link Hudson Jimmy Humphrey
Varnel Watson
Nelson Banuchi just a note to your verse here
“for where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there is disorder and every evil thing” (James 3:16),
where it says evil thing the word thing is not in the Greek
it is the English rendering of the def. article
and it could be translated
as every evil or all evils
and YES it may refer to demons controlling kings http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/is-trump-really-saved/
Louise Cummings
I read part of the prophecy. I think you. Red to read the Bible. It true for sure. It certainly won’t be Trump and Pence , if I understood you correctly. They will not be the two prophets that will Prophecy. And be killed and lay in the streets three days , and then come back alive. The Bible plainly tells you one is Elijah , I believe the other to be Enoch, because they both was translated to Heaven without ever dying. And the Bible says it is appointed for man once to die. And they will be killed during the Tribulations. Some thinks one will be Moses , because He will Work the same things that he did while in Egypt. Like turning water to blood. But Moses died. Already. But Enoch ever died. That’s the reason I think it will be Enouch and Elijah. Because they never died. I don’t mean it disrespectful, I think you have your thoughts, and left out Gods Word.
Louise Cummings
Your thoughts put in and Gods Word left out. It might be some other things you might need to think on. Gods word will stand,more than history, repeating itself
Varnel Watson
the media is trying to push us the 2020 agenda already http://time.com/5526688/elizabeth-warren-donald-trump-jail-investigations/
Louise Cummings
I corrected my words in what I thought about the Prophecy. I didn’t mean for it to sound like it was meaning the wrong person. I put the word you in there to many times when I wasn’t referring to any you. I was referring to the one who wrote the prophecy. I guess it just comes easy to put say. When you could give a complete misunderstanding. I glad I read over what I wrote. I’m pretty sure it was a woman wrote it. If not and it was a Him. Then I still have it wrong. I meant it going to the one who thought Trump and Pence. Was going to be Enoch and Elijah.
Link Hudson
If a woman could be a one woman man could a woman be the man of sin?
Louise Cummings
Link Hudson Lol.
Robert Erwine
One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the punishment of the great prostitute, who sits by many waters. With her the kings of the earth committed adultery, and the inhabitants of the earth were intoxicated with the wine of her adulteries.”
Then the angel carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness. There I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered with blasphemous names and had seven heads and ten horns. 4 The woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, and was glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls. She held a golden cup in her hand, filled with abominable things and the filth of her adulteries. 5 The name written on her forehead was a mystery:
babylon the great
the mother of prostitutes
and of the abominations of the earth.
I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of God’s holy people, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus.
When I saw her, I was greatly astonished. Then the angel said to me: “Why are you astonished? I will explain to you the mystery of the woman and of the beast she rides, which has the seven heads and ten horns. The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and yet will come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because it once was, now is not, and yet will come.
“This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits. 10 They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for only a little while. 11 The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction.
“The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but who for one hour will receive authority as kings along with the beast. They have one purpose and will give their power and authority to the beast. They will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”
Then the angel said to me, “The waters you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations and languages. The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire. For God has put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to hand over to the beast their royal authority, until God’s words are fulfilled. The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth.”
Varnel Watson
https://www.charismamag.com/spirit/world-religions/40085-exposing-demonic-roots-of-new-paganism-that-s-reshaping-america
Varnel Watson
http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/the-1933-william-branham-woman-president-prophecy/
Varnel Watson
#9 we voted Trump in office and still waiting for the reversal
and the wall
and his taxes
and Prosecute Hillary Clinton
and Muslim ban
and Tax cuts for all
and Minimize government waste
and take no vacation days – took more in 1 year that Obama ever did
and and and…
Robert Erwine
Gerald R Smith
It amazes me how some, who tack on titles to their supposed theological prowess, are yet unlearned in the workings of our government. Our nation’s leader is not a dictator. When campaigning for office, they present a platform made up of opinions, beliefs, and legislation he hopes to enact. He/she isn’t a dictator. Much of this must be approved by the powers of Congress. When the opposing party, in this case Democrats, vow to disrupt, plot & vote against and even empeach the sitting President, it’s all but I’m possible to get legislation passed. In spite of this demonic opposition, President Trump has against all odds, under Divine Providence, done wonders for our nation. I certainly do not claiming to be exceptionally intelligent, but some things are evident unless one chooses not to see.
Robert Erwine
Hey you should have been around when Obama was president
Varnel Watson
I’d like to see some of those said wonders IF this is still per OP and not some random political rant
Gerald R Smith
I hear the arguments as to whether or not Press. Trump is a born again Christian. Whether or not, he is by far the best choice over Hillary or Bernie.
Varnel Watson
tell us
Is TRUMP really SAVED? http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/is-trump-really-saved/
Louise Cummings
I can say that the Bible says You will know them be the fruits they bear. But to say he saved or not. I would say only God knows. I know as far as I’m concerned. I would say his language should change. Some of his words. But to say if he is saved. I would say , Lord you know. But I know I would love to see the fruit. But for me, I wouldn’t try to judge.
Steve Losee
not if my vote counts.
Kelly Crites
Nope.
Robert Erwine
She is toast politically, its going to be AOC in the next few election cycles .
Bill Cleghorn
ROFL Liberal Losers
Nora Neel-Toney
God forbid.
Ray E Horton
Horror of horrors! Never!
Theo Dragic
Oh please run please please please run!! It went so well the first time I can’t imagine it going any funnier the second.
Varnel Watson
She already said she was not going to run
Jed Smock
But her country needs her? Who else can break the glass ceiling?
Varnel Watson
Jed you seem like the man for the job 🙂
Jed Smock
Troy Day I could not do as Trump has done. Men like him who make history are men of an era.
Joe Absher
🙂
Roger Wilson
Foolishness
Dean Steenburgh
Not even worth sharing haha
Gerardo de Dominicis
If the US would had an election system where the President is elect by the voters and not by an electoral college, she would be now the US President. She got more votes than Trump, but the “electoral college” gave the Presidency to Trump because that’s the way the electoral system works in the USA.
Varnel Watson
This is true but for this very reason we have an election system and not a popularity pageant
Aaron Griffiths
They all claim to be different but all have the same agenda
Varnel Watson
come on now – its all the same only the name will change
Louise Cummings
Aaron Griffiths no.
Louise Cummings
Troy Day you know Jezebel was worse than Ahah. But he isn’t Ahab. At least he’s trying to keep Christianity , in America. Ahab didn’t. The first President, we have had , that tried to keep Christian values in America, in years. I pray for God to help get ready for the Rapture. Well I would like them all be ready. But since President Trump has tried to hold it in there. I would hate for him to miss the Rapture. Ihave a lot of confidence in his wife. When I saw her keep rubbing tears away from her eyes, when some Lady sang , How Great Thou Art. “. She won my heart right then. I don’t know how close to God he is. But he wants prayer back in school. Merry Christmas can be on Christmas cards. I think he wants God in America. People has comprised the gospel for God so long ,They don’t even recognize Him when He there. Many has come to the place anything goes. And then we have some who wants a move of God. When God is there and people Worship God. They are ready to com back. Because they love Worship. And God Loves Worshiping.
Eugene Stiger
I most certainly hope not.
Aaron Griffiths
Eugene Stiger wake up
Varnel Watson
Hillary represents Cleopatra in many different ways including her Jezebel control over men and the division of the Roman Republic as well as her practice of witchcraft. America’s biblical ancestor was Manasseh whose parents were the Hebrew/Syrian Joseph and an Egyptian woman. America continues to this day to exhibit many of her ancient grandmother’s Egyptian characteristics, with the Egyptian pyramid on the back of the Dollar Bill and with the pagan Washington Monument and others. Even as Cleopatra was the last Queen of Egypt, so will her spiritual daughter Hillary Clinton be the last queen of America. Link Hudson Do we suppose that the Bible tells us EVERYTHING about demons? No. But it does tell us all we NEED to know (namely, that they have to go in the Name of Jesus, etc.). For instance, wouldn’t you like to know more about why the demons wanted to go into the swine? What we have is mainly conjecture.
Wouldn’t you like to know where demons come from? Some say they are fallen angels, etc. But to the best of my knowledge, that it nothing but conjecture, too.
However, when someone speaks of a “Jezebel spirit,” I do not take this to be a particular DEMON, but rather a set of behaviors that can enable us to be more watchful with people exhibiting those behaviors. Just as the FBI has profilers that can tell us the traits of certain serial killers (believe it or not, cruelty to animals, bed-wetting, and fire starting are three things that show up in many or most serial killer profiles!), we would be foolish to ignore behaviors that often reveal darker things.
The same with the “Jezebel spirit.” Like I said, I have never considered that a particular demon, but rather someone who is acting in a way that we believe Jezebel acted. Just as we can see people that are controlling, or insecure, or narcissistic–and can divine from that certain elements that we would be wise to regard in the future with other people/situations–so, too, can we see both negative and positive traits in Biblical characters and draw some conclusions.
For instance, do you recall how Jesus told the disciples (who wanted to call down fire from heaven) that they didn’t know what spirit they were of? He is letting them know that they were acting in a manner that was contrary to the pattern/spirit they should have been following.
Now, sometimes, it does indeed get weird. And perhaps this is something that can only be detected by discernment, but, yeah, sometimes people go to some wild places in their teaching, and in such cases, we must take care. I tend to take many things with a grain of salt, not giving exceptional weight to it until I can better study it or confirm it, etc.
Most of us preach sermons that are based on these principles. For instance, we may not call it “the spirit of Esau,” we might very well preach a sermon about people who trade their birthright for some bauble, relatively speaking.
Demas? I think we could EASILY come up with a “spirit of Demas.” But I think the use of the word “spirit” can get problematic, making people think it is a specific spirit with a specific name, rather than a “profile” that often accompanies people who turn back to the world.
In our mid-week Bible Study, going through the “stories” of the Bible, we spoke of Jezebel. And I simply pointed out some key things that Jezebel exhibited and warned against such things. I might have used the term “Jezebel spirit,” but I think it was clear that I meant “actions associated very strongly with Jezebel.”
It doesn’t have to be in the Bible to be valid (although it helps). Also, the Bible gives us all we NEED to know (even if not all we WANT to know). It can be very beneficial, I think, to dig deeper. God can provide additional insight that might warn us of impending problems. The Bible tells us how to defeat this spirit (and any other), but it may not make it clear just what sort of things show up with these “profiles.”
Casius Leonidas
Troy Day the book of Enoch tells us exactly where demons come from and who they are.
Link Hudson
Cleopatra served foreign overlords.
There are many things we coukd accuse Hilary Clinton of based on policies she has supported. Is there evidence to support accusing her of witchcraft? Is it based on someone claiming revelation of it?
Aaron Griffiths
Troy Day yes she is a witch
Eugene Stiger
Aaron Griffiths with a capital B.
Louise Cummings
Aaron Griffiths agree.
Link Hudson
I do not like her politics or even her voice or personality. U have prayed that she never be president. But is there any evidence that she has done witchcraft. Slander is a sin after all. Should we accuse her based on second hand revelation? It reminds me of spectral evidence.
Robert Erwine
Paul L. King
Casius Leonidas The Book of Enoch is not Scripture.
Varnel Watson
I was JUST about to say that to the expert
Casius Leonidas
Paul L. King yet still quoted from in Jude and referenced by Jesus.
The Bible, as we know it, doesn’t go into the details of demons because Enoch covered it already.
Varnel Watson
Casius Leonidas SO? Paul quoted from a drunk Crete poet – does this make his poem true BIBLE?
Casius Leonidas
Troy Day depends. Were the Greek poets writings found in the caves of Qumran with the rest of OT scriptures?
Robert Erwine
nope , she is done . she will never be president . any money
Louise Cummings
No.
Louise Cummings
I wouldn’t talking about Hillary Clinton. If the devil had a wife , she would probably be her. She is the Jezebel. And probably worse. I was talking about Trumps wife. Setting the good example. And Trump trying to bring to bring God in America. I didn’t know how to spell Malta. Trumps wife , seeing the tears.
Louise Cummings
I ended before I was finished. No I don’t put anything past Hillary Clinton. I think she is worse than Jezebel. I don’t know if I could ever vote a democrat ticket again or not. I would have to know then and they have got God in their life. At least their fruit represents Christian. I don’t go along wit Trump in everything. Especially his language. But I think he is trying.
Nelson Banuchi
Guess what? Hillary Clinton, for all her faults and precisely because of her sins (real or those imagined by you) is why Jesus (a) dies on the Cross, and (b) commands his people to prayer for (in the same way many pro-Trump Christians say Christian “Trump-haters” should pray for Trump) her salvation.
Btw, Trump’s “fruit” – if it is true as as Jesus claims that you shall know them by their fruits – betrays that he is not a Christian (1 John 3:7-8).
Nelson Banuchi
Louise Cummings Btw, it seems obvious to me that Trump is not “trying to bring to bring God in America”; and, if he is, it is only to promote his own self for, ultimately it seems, monetary purposes. He’s using the Christian faith, not promoting it (which is not the first time a delusional man with despotic tendencies used religion, for our discussion, Christianity for their own self-interest. KKK is an example.
Aaron Griffiths
Nelson Banuchi you will see Trumps real fruits over next 2 years.?
And as children of God we are expose wickidness and abhor from evil
Also have you ever read Ecclesiastes 3:7-8 ????
Louise Cummings
Nelson Banuchi don’t tell me you are one of them. All those that came by yesterday saying , he’s not doing it for them , he’s doing it for him. If I could haven my word for him. I would well you all have the same message. It seems to me that they were jealous , because they didn’t think of loving their country. , because all of you must have been behind closed doors. And didn’t think of doing something good for your country. Because they didn’t have time to think of something good , because they were to busy trying to think, what can we do that’s cricked that will put a million dollars in my pocket. Now let’s all think. We can share a little money with all of you , but I get the biggest cut. They were the ones doing it for then and letting out men and ladies that paid the full price for our freedom. You see they had the message turned backwards. They were the ones thinking of themselves , and not our precious men and women that it cost their life. So they got jealous because Trump loved his Country and payed respect to the ones who lost their lives. So they all had to come up with something. So they started the message they were doing , because they didn’t think of something good. Just how they could get another dollar. So they come up with the same message. He’s not doing it for then. He’s doing it for him. And a lot of copycats come in behind , saying the same thing. I not trying to offend you.I guess a lot of people felt that way. But it seems to me. They weee all mind readers or copying what others were saying.
Nelson Banuchi
Aaron Griffiths no doubt I will see Trump’s fruit in the next year-and-a-half. The question is what kind of fruit it will be, good or rotten? If it’s past Route is any indication, it’s most likely going to be the latter unless, of course, he has a change of heart and repents, seeking the forgiveness he disdains now to ask for and receive.
Aaron Griffiths
Nelson Banuchi Amen
Louise Cummings
We just need to be watching Praying and be ready. But when the antichrist comes. The Christians will be gone in the Rapture anyway. And the antichrist will want ever one to take a number. If you don’t take the mark that will be a number 666. Don’t take it. Let them kill you first. But if you take it. You will be lost forever. But if you let them kill you. Just in a few months you will rise and live for the Lord forever.
Louise Cummings
I wrote a lot. I don’t know where it went to.
Varnel Watson
oh boy oh boy oh boy Nelson Banuchi are they BOTH promoting NAR theology of the Catholic church? Angel Ruiz Philip Williams
Joshwa Bedford
Nope #Trump2020
Varnel Watson
Joshwa Bedford is this your final answer or your prophecy ?
Joshwa Bedford
Troy Day I never claim to make prophecies; its a hope and guess
Varnel Watson
https://www.dailywire.com/news/49062/trump-campaign-going-overdrive-reach-evangelicals-hank-berrien
Louise Cummings
I said at the beginning. I wanted the all to be saved. That includes Hillary. I don’t want to see them all saved. I have prayed for Hillary. Said I prayed for Trump , that he wouldn’t miss the Rapture,
because he has tried to bring Gods values or God back into America. But go back and see if I didn’t say I wanted them all to go. Or be saved , something to that nature. But I was talking about Trumps wife , when I said she won my heart. It was on Onigaratyon night. That some lady sang “ How Great Thou Art”. She kept putting her fingers to her eyes , catching her tears. That when I said she won my heart , that night. You could tell she was feeling something from God. That’s the reason I said she won my heart. I have not seen her do anything out of order. Since Trump has been President. Yes I lift him up in prayer , because how long has it been since we have anyone say anything for God , except the Governor ,didn’t want the Ten Commandments took out of court House , or the government house. Somewhere down there.And lost his Job because of it. You don’t see anyone in public , or higher office that will mention God. My son will. But he is in a small office. He is in his third term to be on the City Council. But he mentions God to people. But Trump has put Merry Christmas back on Christmas cards. Where we did have to buy cards that said Happy Holidays. And prayer and Bible reading back in school. And can pray before a football game. He’s trying. I don’t know his heart , or his wife. But someone that is trying to put God back in America. And have our Christians values. I said I pray he won’t miss the Rapture. Trying to do that much good. And miss the Rapture. It would be sad. I pray God save him and all his family. I pray for the others to. I don’t want a single one to be lost. But on one side. Most of their fruit , doesn’t show any love or fear of God.
Aaron Griffiths
Louise Cummings Mathew 24:24
Louise Cummings
Aaron Griffiths I know about those Scriptures. This part will be during the Tribulations. The time of the antichrist. The church will be Raptured during this time. But there will still be signs and wonders.before the Rapture. But greater things will happen after the Lord Raptures the Church.
Philip Williams
Sure Trump would like the support of evangelicals just as did Reagan who they have both helped much. It doesn’t seem to bother evangelicals that these that neither of these Presidents are willing to mention the name of Jesus. God’s judgment is coming!
Louise Cummings
Philip Williams Amen to that. I will agree that in the next two or three years. There will be som terrible things happen. But I believe we are going to see the wind of the Spirit blow. It’s going to be a Revival to cause most people see , we are living in the last days. We are already beginning to see the stir. When have you ever heard of five foot of hail fall in Mexico. So many things already. And this is getting or already are here.
Ray E Horton
Philip WilliamsTrump mentions the name of Jesus frequently.
Philip Williams
Ray E Horton in private meetings with evangels or in public? Please post a link.
Ray E Horton
Philip Williams I don’t have time to look them up now, but even in public speeches that I’ve heard that have been posted on FB and elsewhere.
Philip Williams
Ray E Horton remember the words of Jesus. Private confessions aren’t so important. At his Coming, he will be ashamed before the Father of all who are ashamed of him.
Ray E Horton
Philip Williams True, but as I said, Trump has publically acknowledged Jesus often.
Philip Williams
Ray E Horton never seen it. Where can I find?
Ray E Horton
Philip Williams How about Trump’s Christmas greeting from the White House. He said:
“For Christians all across our nation, around the world, this is a sacred season that begins 2,000 years ago when Jesus Christ was born. An angel declared to the shepherds tending their flocks, ‘Behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. For unto you is a born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.’
“There in Bethlehem, Mary and Joseph held in their hands the son of God; the light of the world; and, through Him, the promise of eternal salvation.”
Google the Christmas message, and hear for yourself.
Philip Williams
Not even Muslims are offended by that and the Jews sell Christmas cards.
Has he ever tweeted about Jesus? That’s his famous forum for expressing his beliefs.
Louise Cummings
I didn’t mean to offend you. But people needs to know where they are walking.
Varnel Watson
we should do MORE TRUMP POSTS Joe Absher
Philip Williams
Troy Day so God no longer has a holy people separate from the world?
Louise Cummings
Mine wasn’t a Prophecy , just how I felt. I didn’t know you were doing prophecies. Can I erase mine. Most or all of that was my thoughts. Can I erase.
Nora Neel-Toney
God help is if she is ever elected. She needs to be in prison
Varnel Watson
yeah what happened there – wasnt Trump supposed to put her in or something? Nelson Banuchi
Nora Neel-Toney
Troy Day I don’t know. Never heard that
Nelson Banuchi
Troy Day yes, Trump said something to the effect that once he’s president he’s going to press charges on her and send her to jail.
The word numbskull comes to mind.
Philip Williams
She comes as a couple with her husband. I had an extensive encounter with him in the mid-nineties where their Deep State corruption began with the invasion of Haiti. My guess is that both of them are destined for prison.
Varnel Watson
yeah they all do – kind of
Philip Williams
He was the first “third world” kind of president in our nation’s history, someone who used the office to get rich.
Varnel Watson
Philip Williams oh come on now Bush Sr didnt 🙂
Philip Williams
Troy Day Bush Sr was wealthy from birth. He was part of CIA darkness, but was there to preserve the corrupt system.
Nelson Banuchi
Philip Williams didn’t think you were the type to cry conspiracy. I’m surprised…
Philip Williams
Nelson Banuchi no conspiracy, just how our government works. I had a big confrontation with the American Ambassador who together with his staff was shouting at me and my staff about how I was messing up their plans for Haiti. I got a concerned call from the White House. They actually invaded that country for gain, giving to Aristide personally what rightfully belonged to the telephone company owned by the government and people.
Most interesting, my letters to government officials and letters written on my behalf from members of Congress ended up in the briefcase of Johnnie Chung who was supposedly working on their behalf for selling secrets to China and pled the Fifth. They had, I surmised, been given to him by the Commerce Secretary, the late Ron Brown.
These letters, then with FBI serial numbers were obtained through FIFA by Joe Kovac, Editor of the World Net Daily who called me asking why I thought my letters should be in Chung’s briefcase.
Philip Williams
Nelson Banuchi
Know that the Clinton Foundation made its big money from donations to the earthquake victims of Haiti.
at first, I assumed that Chung was a very bad actor, but nothing made sense until this.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4251046/Illegal-Clinton-fundraiser-tape-fearing-life.html
Nelson Banuchi
Philip Williams YOU “had a big confrontation with the American Ambassador”?
What are you talking about?
Nelson Banuchi
Philip Williams Looked into it a bit. Not sure exactly what went one but, apparently, the DailyMail.Co.UK, is your only evidence for a conspiracy? Are you talking about Chinagate?
Washington Post reported a Republican attorney’s conclusion on the matter: Yet, Jan Baran, a Republican attorney specializing in election law, said if no one at the White House requested the contribution and if Williams promptly turned it over to the DNC, the White House “may have an argument that those circumstances do not constitute a violation.”
However, if Chinagate, is true, probably, perhaps, it is essentially not much different, at least for the goal, from what Trump (whom I believe is an illegitimate President) is doing with Russia in a somewhat different way, if not as “high crimes and misdemeaners.”
And if you’re not disturbed by what Trump has done and is doing, I’m not gonna be disturbed with what Clinton did.
Philip Williams
Nelson Banuchi
Indeed I did. It concerned an infrastructure project I had hoped to implement in Haiti.
I could write a book. I simply provided a link with an indication of the seriousness. Had I not experienced what I did, I would dismiss this as right-wing conspiracy, to quote Hillary. Do a bit of research on Ron Brown, his role in this, and his death.
Philip Williams
Nelson Banuchi I am apolitical, only mentioning my personal experience with two corrupt politicians and a corrupt government. Maybe it doesn’t bother you that Haiti was embargoed, then invaded for private gain. And that hundreds of millions donated for Haiti’s earthquake relief went instead to the Clinton foundation.
I wasn’t discussing Trump. Why did you bring him up? What’s your point? And what has he to do with this?
Did you watch the clip on Johnny Chung who I formerly believed was responsible? I formerly supposed that he had pled the Fifth to avoid prosecution. Now I understand that he is a pawn who knows too much. He has very good reason to fear for his life from a very corrupt American CIA who also opposed my project for Haiti.
It seems that he was given my letters in order to obtain inroads to the government of China. A long story behind that which begins in Arkansas in 1989 that I don’t wish to discuss here.
Philip Williams
To quote the sad words that American Ambassador Leslie Swing, a veteran of the State Department, shouted to me:”Haiti exists to serve American interest!”
Corruption obviously preceded the Clinton’s, but these two knew how to use it, likely going back to her father, the late Senator.
In the Ambassador’s words, “America” refers to big corporations like AT&T (in this case), Banks, and powerful politicians, not the American people however corrupt we may be.
David Asbury
False prophet do not trust
RichardAnna Boyce
is Mike Pence an evangelical who goes to a mega grace church?
Philip Williams
RichardAnna Boyce he’s Catholic.
RichardAnna Boyce
is this true …. As traced by Indiana free-lancer Craig Fehrman. Pence’s religious trajectory began with an Irish Catholic boyhood and proceeded to an evangelical religious experience in college that led him to call himself “an evangelical Catholic.” By the mid-1990s, the Catholic side had receded and he joined Grace Evangelical Church in Indianapolis, a mega-church affiliated with the Evangelical Free Church of America (a small Baptist denomination with roots in the Scandinavian free church movement).
Serving six terms in Congress beginning in 2001, Pence was the compleat evangelical warrior. He kept his Bible handy to consult on matters of public policy and became a paladin of the pro-life cause. Nothing, he claimed, was more important than his faith.
But after being elected governor of Indiana in 2012, he suddenly became reticent. He told Fehrman his family was “looking for a church.” It’s not known whether they ever found one.
Fehrman attributes the reticence to political calculation: “as his political ambitions grew his public religiosity needed to shrink.” But that’s not a problem in contemporary evangelicalism. It’s enough to call yourself, as Pence did when accepting Donald Trump’s offer to be his running mate, “a Christian, a conservative, and a Republican — in that order.”
RichardAnna Boyce
Pence became friends with several evangelical Christian students, whose Protestant faith he came to admire. “I began to meet young men and women who talked about having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, and while I cherish my Catholic upbringing and the foundation that it poured in my faith, that had not been a part of my experience,” Pence said in a 2010 interview with the Christian Broadcasting Network.
A short time later, in 1978, Pence took his first major step away from Catholicism by engaging in a classic evangelical rite — he was “saved.”
“Standing at a Christian music festival in Asbury, Kentucky…I gave my life to Jesus Christ and that’s changed everything,” he said.
As powerful as the moment was, the departure from the faith that raised him wasn’t immediate. Pence continued to align himself with Catholicism even after graduation, when he worked as a Catholic youth minister, and even applied to Catholic University in Washington, D.C. for graduate school. As late as 1994, he still used the unusual religious identity — “evangelical Catholic” — to help make sense of the tension between his old faith and his new spiritual experiences.
Ray E Horton
God forbid!
Varnel Watson
yes?
Dulan Foster
ARE YOU SERIOUS RIGHT NOW !!!!!!
Varnel Watson
why?
Varnel Watson
Philip Williams a SERIOUS situation for evangelicals
Philip Williams
Troy Day what has the situation of the world to do with the kingdom of God?
Varnel Watson
Philip Williams ppl may discard this as a vain warning but believe you me – coming sooner than 2020
Philip Williams
Troy Day maybe if the Deep State is deep enough. All this isn’t my focus.
Varnel Watson
WHAT? Nelson Banuchi Trump said something to the effect that once he’s president he’s going to press charges on her and send her to jail.
WHAT ARE YOU Talking about my friend? Are you all there? Have you forgotten? NOT ONLY he said that – he made it his campaign flag ship How many tweets about that? How many interviews? Statements and so on – only to forget it ALL like most of his other promises to evangelicals NOW watch for the FLIP in 2020
Richard Travers
Evidence my boy evidence… that’s what we’re waiting for…
Varnel Watson
for what? Richard Travers Nelson Banuchi https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-us-canada-38067815/trump-to-clinton-you-d-be-in-jail-for-emails
Varnel Watson
SO whats your final take on this Nelson Banuchi Philip Williams is this happening in 2020 or NOT? http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/jezebel-spirit-waging-war-against-america/