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Why did postmillennial eschatology did not come to existence until early 20th century?
Why did post-millennial eschatology not come to existence until early 20th century?
Answer: To juxtapose the growing influence of the orthodox pre-trib Biblical teaching in the Western hemisphere as presented by most if not virtually all early Church Fathers
SOURCE: http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/the-ancient-church-fathers-believed-in-pre-trib-rapture/
Varnel Watson
Andrew J. Panish this is a GREAT question for ALL 6-trumpers out there and NAR fanatics Calvinators claim Augustine to be post-mil but he was a-Mil Civio Dei is pretty clear about it in ALL 500+ pages even in the English translation So why such postMil heresy appears at theb start of the 20th century?
Answer: To juxtapose the growing influence of the orthodox pre-trib Biblical teaching in the Western hemisphere as presented by most if not virtually all early Church Fathers
SOURCE: http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/the-ancient-church-fathers-believed-in-pre-trib-rapture/
Andrew J. Panish
People twist what apostles have said. I have no interest in that. The Bible rules. The Bible is written to the regular gimoke. To people that do not have access to concordances or to ancient texts or original scripts, or to writings of ECFs….. What IS a ‘6-trumper’? And ‘NAR’ fanatic? What ‘Calvinators’ claim is of no consequence………Seems ‘post-mil heresy’ (along with no-rapture heresies) is appearing more and more as it plays to the devil’s game plan of confusion and deception. Some of it’s teachers mean well but don’t grasp the verses – clouded by some ‘influence’. Some teach the heresies deliberately and are in that occult camp.
Varnel Watson
Andrew J. Panish NOPE straight quote No twisting It says what it says – thats what they believed
Andrew J. Panish
Troy Day Sure- The apostles believed in a pre-Trib rapture. No contention there…..Paul addressed one of the churches that received a phony letter telling them they were left behind (yes- in the Bible). SOME Apostle writngs verify the Bible, some people find (or twist) writings from the Apostles that seem to refute the Bible. (No- I am not saying you are in this group.) The direct Word is infinitely more preferable over any writings that do not appear in the Bible.
Varnel Watson
Andrew J. Panish If you think you know better than the church fathers I certainly cannot add anything to your upbringing
Lawrence Apitz
I am a mid trib last trumpet rapture person
Varnel Watson
which one is last trump – 6th or 7th? @Andrew J. Panish
Wal Ters
this article is wrong, pretribs are usually misreading stuff, especially the Bible.
Neil Steven Lawrence
Post-trib viewpoint raises its ugly head whenever mankind thinks he can solve his problems. At the turn of the century it was industrialization and modern improvements. In this post modern time we have high technology and communication.
In reality when you compare history of ancient times modern times and now post modern times man is basically similar.
But the answer to God’s plans is the same.
Varnel Watson
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mN960T7Qq1A&feature=emb_title&fbclid=IwAR3Ru9k5gMEKuyj4Qby7pgg8kEUrqJfeU8u7Ob1rz01jl_KntOs0GFuGKeA
Perry Hess
Wow! Talk about ignorance!!!
The pilgrims who came to America were postmillennial.
Varnel Watson
Come again? But pls educate yourself BEFORE you comment further
Puritan eschatology during the seventeenth century,
and in fact well into the eighteenth century, was characteristically pre-millennial in that it envisioned the occurrence of some eschatological crisis before the advent of the millennium.
There are dissertations out there like this one that proves that Some calvinator has mislead you grossly May I also add that I strongly doubt you know what Augustine believe on eschatology if you think he was postmil too
Kingdom and church in New England; Puritan eschatology from John Cotton to Jonathan Edwards
William Charles Eamon
The University of Montana
https://scholarworks.umt.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=6564&context=etd
Alan Yusko
this is the end of the aga and there are many heresies out there..
Varnel Watson
I just wanted to make a short post about end times prophecy. Some will disagree about The Rapture of the church, when or even if it will happen, but let’s not get hung up on that event bc most all agree with the rest. You can look these scriptures up yourself, but most of what is true has multiple scripture references, so it’s hard to just teach this in a quick, short manner. If you disagree with anything here, that’s your prerogative. I’m not looking to debate anything here bc you’re not going to change my mind. I have carefully studied this subject and have an actual diploma from and accredited university on end times, so I’m pretty set. We don’t HAVE to agree on everything bc this is NOT a salvation issue….
God’s prophetic calendar….
1. The Rapture. This is where there is a catching up of the Saints. I believe it occurs just before the 7 yrs of the Tribulation. Some believe it happens in the middle of the Tribulation. Some believe it really doesn’t happen at all and the only time Jesus comes for us is at the Second Coming. More on that later
2. Immediately following the rapture, the Tribulation period starts. There will be 3 1/2 years of world peace. Israel will sign a Peace Agreement with those nations that surround it. The anti christ will broker the deal. He will be revealed, but many will be deceived about who he is. He will be worshiped as a great man of peace and prosperity.
3. The anti christ will be promoted heavily by the false prophet. Many (including me) believe the false prophet will be the pope at that time. The antichrist will perform miracles. And he will desecrate the temple in Jerusalem, which will have been rebuilt on the Temple Mount by then.
4.After 3 1/2 years of peace, it will suddenly become very bad. The bible says it will be like a time never before and that God in His mercy will shorten those days. There will be plagues released, wars started, indescribable torture of humanity. The anti christ will issue an edict to get chipped and do away with our money. He will set up a one world government and one world currency. Many will be behead that refuse the chip. The bible calls these ppl martyrs that are given honor in heaven. Israel will be attacked, but God will supernaturally protect them.
5. The armies of the world will amass at Armageddon. Some (including me) believe that these armies are Islamic. I also believe the anti christ to be the 12th Imam that muslims are waiting and preparing for right now.
6. The Second Coming…..Jesus returns from heaven with a host of Saints. He calls all believers together at that time to face off against the armies of the world. The bible says He and the Saints will be riding horses, Jesus’ horse being white. As they prepare to battle, Jesus will merely speak the Word and the army of the world will be defeated. The bible says it will be so bloody that the blood will be as deep as the horse reins and that the animals and birds will pick the carcasses for moths afterwards.
7. Sin is defeated and a New Jerusalem comes down from heaven and sits on Jerusalem. It is 1500 miles square and high. This is the city of God. Jesus will be the light there. He will be with His people. He will assign the Saints to go govern all parts of the earth. Life will continue on, with humans still having babies and worshiping God. This is known as the Millennial Reign, and there will be peace under the one world government of Jesus, who will be a benevolent dictator. Satan will be bound during this period.
8. Near the end of the 1,000 yrs, people will begin to get rebellious again. Satan will be loosed for a season, and there will be another great war where satan and God’s enemies are defeated.
9. This is where some of us disagree…..I believe that at the end of that war, we will be taken up to heaven to spend eternity. Some believe that the new Jerusalem is the same as heaven. There is a text in Peter that indicates the world will be destroyed, and that’s why I believe as I do.
10. Eternity with God, who sits on the throne and Jesus who sits at His right hand! God has given all authority over to Jesus, so it will be Jesus that we worship in the beautiful heavens! A river of life runs thru it! How, majestic it must be! Eye has not seen, ear has not heard how wonderful it will be. And there we will spend eternity!
If that’s not enough to make you want to give your everything to Jesus, I can’t imagine what is! Call upon Him today! Christians, keep oil in your lamp! It could happen any hour now! God bless y’all!
Joseph Weissman
That is not true, you can read a host of Puritan, Presbyterian, Covenanter and Reformed postmillennial commentaries such as James Durham, Wilhelmus a Brakel, Patrick Fairbairn, and David Brown.
Michael Robert Dunia
Amen, Joseph Weissman!
Varnel Watson
all of which came WAY later you know
Joseph Weissman
Troy Day James Durham died in 1658, A Brakel in 1711, Fairbairn in 1874, and Brown in 1897.
Varnel Watson
Joseph Weissman irrelevant They all came about AFTER the puritans And yes late 1800s early 1900s is what I meant Right after DARBY made widespread of pre-trib which was native to American eschatology postmils started spreading their poison BUT Puritan eschatology during the seventeenth century,
and in fact well into the eighteenth century, was characteristically pre-millennial in that it envisioned the occurrence of some eschatological crisis before the advent of the millennium.
There are dissertations out there like this one that proves that Some calvinator has mislead you grossly May I also add that I strongly doubt you know what Augustine believe on eschatology if you think he was postmil too
Kingdom and church in New England; Puritan eschatology from John Cotton to Jonathan Edwards
William Charles Eamon
The University of Montana
https://scholarworks.umt.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=6564&context=etd&fbclid=IwAR2jEEb1K6W1cAU27C501VjTBIfqUo7pCORF1LnNHRZSp4Qx14HovZP8O9A
Joseph Weissman
Troy Day I’m not sure what you’re arguing. These are all postmil commentators who lived before the 20th century, disproving your OP.
Philip Williams
Jonathan Edwards and Charles Finney were both postmillennial.
Varnel Watson
says where – pls review the dissertation I posted
Philip Williams
Troy Day
I am only able to read memes.
Varnel Watson
Philip Williams Puritan eschatology during the seventeenth century,
and in fact well into the eighteenth century, was characteristically pre-millennial in that it envisioned the occurrence of some eschatological crisis before the advent of the millennium.
There are dissertations out there like this one that proves that Some calvinator has mislead you grossly May I also add that I strongly doubt you know what Augustine believe on eschatology if you think he was postmil too
Kingdom and church in New England; Puritan eschatology from John Cotton to Jonathan Edwards
William Charles Eamon
The University of Montana
https://scholarworks.umt.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=6564&context=etd&fbclid=IwAR2jEEb1K6W1cAU27C501VjTBIfqUo7pCORF1LnNHRZSp4Qx14HovZP8O9A
Philip Williams
Augustine following Tychonius was preterist and anti-chilliast,certainly not premillennial.
Varnel Watson
Philip Williams Augustine was as a-mil as it gets No other way to explain Civitas Deo Pentecostal biblical scholar French Arrington details the popularization of dispensationalism by John Nelson Darby and by C. I. Scofield. Arrington describes dispensationalism as “an interpretive scheme grafted onto the traditional body of Christian doctrine.” He defines it more specifically as a “basic assumption that God deals with the human race in successive dispensations.” A dispensation is a period of time
marked by a beginning, a test, and termination in judgment through human failure or sin. Though dispensationalism has influenced Pentecostal theology, probably because of the
avid attachment of both to eschatology, “the earliest pentecostal teachings were not tied to directly to dispensationalism.” In Arrington’s opinion, the statements of faith of major Pentecostal denominations do “commit them to premillennialism but not necessarily to dispensationalism.”
Varnel Watson
Michael Robert Dunia Joseph Weissman John Nelson Darby learned his system of Dispensationalism, rather, a futurist reading of the book of Revelation, from Irving’s translation of the Chilean Jesuit Lacunza’s book from Spanish to English.
The Jesuit Francisco Ribera invented futurist prophecy to shield the Pope from accusations that he was the antiChrist. Ironically, the Cambridge mathematician Joseph Mede developed historical premillennialism to counter Ribera and the late sixteenth century
The Historical Premillennial view objects to pre-tribulation rapture because they do not do not see a sharp distinction between Israel and the Church–as seen in Dispensational Premillennialism. Therefore, Historical Premmillenialsm do not beleive the “he” in 2 Thess 2:7 is the church.
THE Darby Lacunza connection is pretty well known We have actually discussed it here somewhat – paul riviera too borrowed from Lacunza I have the detail transference of pre-Trib doctrine within the USA and in fact it was NOT via Scofiled or Darby but via the Catholic church of Latin America Scofield did nothing more than popularizing a teaching that has been already prominent in non-reformed evangelical churches like many baptists at the time
Lacunza borrowed much from Fiore with his 3 eras of Father, Son and HS – Darby however did translate the BIBLE from original languages in French and English There is a small and not well known but very important book with his translators notes where he explains the actual BIBLE and then theology truth of his rapture findings during his double BIBLE translation I’ve tried to relate SOME of this to Link at times but it has proven to be a lost cause without basic understanding of at least Greek
Samuel Tregelles also adopted Newton’s position against Darby and posited the view that the source of Darby’s ‘secret rapture’ theory was in fact a prophetic utterance given by one of Edward Irving’s congregation.
I also own after much search Larkin’s original 1919 first print of his Revelation commentary It is VERY expensive and I know of only a few private owners who still have it
BUT Larkin is NOT the earlier source I was speaking of I was speaking about Knox Fox Newton Clarke Finney George Mueller Treanch Keil Alford Ellicott and many others who before Larkin all the way to Euphem of Syria and Clement of Rome who claimed the CHURCH is taken BEFORE the rapture as most church fathers believed back then
Then as per splitting history med. monk Joachim Fiore first split it in 3 ages There is so many one cannot count here
Varnel Watson
and Philip Williams can confirm most of this
Joseph Weissman
I agree broadly, but your OP was about post mil.
Anonymous
SIMPLE TRUTH Augustine NEVER believed post-mil Duane L Burgess can tell yall Jared G. Cheshire Kyle Williams calvinator forums will tell you heretical lies ALL day long
Why did post-millennial eschatology not come to existence until early 20th century?
Answer: To juxtapose the growing influence of the orthodox pre-trib Biblical teaching in the Western hemisphere as presented by most if not virtually all early Church Fathers
SOURCE: http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/the-ancient-church-fathers-believed-in-pre-trib-rapture/
Anonymous
Jared G. Cheshire Augustine turned away from the system (Augustine, Sermons, 259; City of God 20:7). Go read it and come back here
Anonymous
Troy Day Boom!
Anonymous
Neil Steven Lawrence oh tell it to Philip Williams Kyle Williams Brett Dobbs
Anonymous
hey Brett Dobbs you REALLY believe Irenaeus was post-mil ??
RPOVE it from his writings
I’ll wait!
Anonymous
still waiting here Brett Dobbs
I didnt write what Irenaeus wrote 🙂
Irenaeus wrote it – go argue with the text
https://www.pentecostaltheology.com/dr-troy-days-quote-irenaeus-on-the-pre-trib-rapture/
Anonymous
Brett Dobbs The “Church” exists in 3 groups: 1. believers who die before Rapture 2. believers who are alive on the earth at the moment of the Pre-Trib Rapture 3. believers who come to faith during the Great Tribulation.
Anonymous
Neil Steven Lawrence so there’s two resurrections?
To be honest with you, I couldn’t prove that are two major resurrections within the end time scope of just before the 70th week nor before the great tribulation and one after.
Jesus says all who the Father gives him, He will raise on the last day. Not some here, and then a few years later he will get the rest.
It was for this reason the pre tribulation theory fell apart for me.
Because I can definitely see a resurrection and rapture at the end of the great tribulation. The pre tribulation rapture is too speculative for me to settle on it. So I made peace with going through the great tribulation if I don’t die before hand. And I’m good with that. I still adhere to the blessed hope. I just no longer believe it’s imminent.
And if I’m wrong the surprise will be that much sweeter.
Anonymous
Brett Dobbs tell him 🙂 Neil Steven Lawrence
Anonymous
Brett Dobbs
https://www.ahigherplacetv.com/4-resurrections-in-time/
Anonymous
and Neil Steven Lawrence just told you Brett Dobbs if you are still here
Anonymous
Neil Steven Lawrence how do you come to these conclusions? I’ve seen other dispensationalist say that that the Old Testament saints get resurrected after the great tribulation at the 2nd coming, but the New Testament saints before the 7 year period.
But I’m not sure how they came to those conclusions either.
Anonymous
Troy Day you could learn something from Neil Steven Lawrence. At least he responds with something. These are Neil’s words as in he did not come out directly and say this, but it seems that in reference to the 4 quotations of Irenaeus that I shared, he’s responding by stating that Irenaeus is covering a scope of multiple resurrections. In which we can go to those quotes and locate them in their broader context and see if that is what Irenaeus was telling us. Wouldn’t this be what a good scholar would do? Let’s look into these things instead of ignoring them.
Anonymous
Brett Dobbs I think Neil Steven Lawrence already answered this one
Anonymous
Brett Dobbs You can learn to read so I dont have to repeat myself
Anonymous
hey @Brett Dobbs you REALLY believe Irenaeus was post-mil ??
RPOVE it from his writings for @everyone here
I’ll wait!
Anonymous
Kyle Williams Originally a premillennialist, Augustine turned away from the system (Augustine, Sermons, 259; City of God 20:7). Go read it and come back here
Anonymous
Troy Day I’ve read it. Thanks
Anonymous
Kyle Williams you know Augustine was a-mil
and you know WHY he became a-mil 🙂
Duane L Burgess already showed post-mil and ANY other theology that denies Rev 20 cannot be Biblical even of it comes from the Philip Williams pope NOW the Augustinian problem is NOT well discussed in calvinator forums THOUGH they all cite Augustine whiteout having read him 🙂
Anonymous
There is no biblical exegetical support for the Amil or Post Mil views.
No allegorizing (Augustine screwed us with this)
No spiritualizing
No replacement theology
To get prophecy and Scripture right we must embrace God’s unique distinctions for ethnic national Israel and for the Church.
Anonymous
Duane L Burgess I AGREE Kyle Williams Jared G. Cheshire Brett Dobbs
When you start interpreting the BIBLE allegorically and symbolically
It can mean virtually EVERYTHING crossGender including …
Anonymous
post-mil denies Rev 20
Sorry Philip Williams that’s heretical
Anonymous
Walter Rauschenbusch and his ilk.
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse tell us here ALL you know about ol Walter R. pls
Anonymous
Postmillennial eschatology was a dominant approach in evangelicalism during 19th century. Finney, Warfield, Edwards, etc. were postmillennialists.
Anonymous
YES this is correct Anička Bubanová as already noted with John Mushenhouse Duane L Burgess in a convo with Kyle Williams post-mil came around as a response to the predominant pre-trib of the Church for as long as 2000+ yrs. Post-mil claimed to be Augustinian but Augustine was a-mil 🙂 Anyhow, any eschatology that denies Rev 20 and dispensations described by Oscar Valdez cannot be proven with the BIBLE – many have tried and failed more notable Ken Gentry 🙂 and Gary North – – – Jared G. Cheshire sized me for disp. and failed too on his 3 factors – but I rightly guessed he is 7day adventist postil which has many theological problems of its own – BTW Finney, Warfield, Edwards, etc. as randomly cited were all Western thinkers in the times of “technological progress” revolution These times are gone. They did NOT represent ALL Christian church of 19th century which at that time was mainly in the eastern hemisphere and Europe
Anonymous
Troy Day Ok brother. I’m historical (nondispensational) premil, posttrib.
Amillennial exegesis of Rev 20 actually tends to be pretty strong. As a premil, I must push literal chronology of Rev 19-20 to make my point. Some scholars are premil/posttrib like me (e.g. Craig Keener) but those who are often show respect to amilllennial scholars because it is not black and white.
Dispensationalism, in my humble opinion, must be cast away from pentecostalism. Keep premillennialism if you wish (like I do) but get rid of the dispensational hermeneutic.
Anonymous
Anička Bubanová HOW are you nondispensational – pls explain this one for Oscar Valdez who is very very dispensational and eschato-baptistic #DTS
Anonymous
Troy Day I believe that the church is a continuation of Israel. In my opinion, there is and always will be only one people of God, which now and for all the future can be named “church”, although it hopefully will contain an increasing number of Messianic Jewish believers.
I also think that most OT prophecies were fulfilled in history as actual historical events and will not be fulfilled in the future. I believe that many OT prophecies were and are being fulfilled typologically in the church and in Christ. Thus I do not see a reason to think that Daniel 9:24-27 is referring to the future. I think that it was fulfilled by the time of Christ’s crucifixion.
This makes me a non-dispensationalist.
For pentecostals: When debating dispensationalism, try to get a clear dispensational answer to this question: Is Acts 2:16 to be interpreted literally? Did Peter really mean what he said? (THIS is THAT which was spoken through Joel…) If not, then the OT promise of the Spirit is not really fulfilled. This places us on the road to cessationism. The answer to this question is very telling.
Anonymous
Anička Bubanová NOT what Vladimir Josef Dubsky Nevsky believes about Palestine and the Czech Spring of 1968
Anonymous
Troy Day I’m completely unaware of what he believes, but I’d be glad to hear him out 🙂
Anonymous
Wow. Jonathan Edwards lived in early twentieth century! I didn’t know.
Anonymous
The only sense in which America was a “Christian land” is that Christianity was the established religion. Edwards regularly denounced the people of New England … First, unlike most of his contemporaries, Edwards believed that the millennium would not arrive in the near future. When many Puritans were expecting an imminent millennium, Edwards anticipated a millennial kingdom arriving in the distant future (around the year 2000) Well it did NOT !!!
I routinely find myself in discussions with undergraduate and graduate students at Baylor about whether a figure like Jonathan Edwards was a “post-millennialist.” (That is, did he believe that Jesus would return after the conclusion of the millennial period referenced in Revelation 20?) I always caution them to note that, while you can find pre- and post-millennial tendencies among various Christian theologians prior to the 1800s, using these terms for earlier figures is anachronistic.
A brief search suggests to me that one of the earliest uses of the term “post-millennial” came in 1830 in a book review by the startlingly named American biblical scholar George Bush. (Later researchers tagged Bush as the author of this unattributed review.) Bush, an eccentric theologian who later became a Swedenborgian, believed that the “millennium” of Revelation 20 had already happened. The term “pre-millennial” and related words came into use right around the same time. For example, a book called The Sacred Calendar of Prophecy (1828) spoke of the “literal premillennian second advent.”
Bush’s early mention of “post-millennial” theology (and please do comment if you know of earlier uses of this term) suggests a transition point that was emerging in British and American theology during the 1830s and 1840s, as “pre-millennial” and “post-millennial” camps became more formalized. John Nelson Darby and the Plymouth Brethren were beginning to popularize dispensational pre-millennialism in Britain at that time. By the time of the Scofield Reference Bible (1909) and the founding of Dallas Theological Seminary in 1924, pre-millennial dispensationalism staked its claim as the most influential system of eschatology in America.
A modest recommendation, then: What if we simply did not use the labels “post-” and “pre-millennial” when discussing eschatological beliefs before 1830? Those labels presume firm theological camps that simply did not exist until then, at least not in their modern form.
https://adfontesjournal.com/web-exclusives/beyond-america-israel-china-and-the-millenium-in-jonathan-edwards/
Anonymous
Second, Edwards’s vision of the millennium is Judeo-centric. This is unique among his Protestant Predecessors and Puritan contemporaries, because most of them advocated supersessionism (believing that the NT church has replaced Israel) or an England-/America-centric millennial view. Unlike many in his time who regarded England or New England as the most significant place in God’s eschatological scheme, Edwards’s spatial vision of the millennial kingdom, in contrast to the once-prevalent misinterpretation, is Canaan-centric NOT American centric @ ALL !
Anonymous
Troy Day interesting. I have Edwards collected works where he writes about the millennium beginning in America. Maybe you have another Edwards in mind.
Anonymous
Troy Day a good slap for all those heretical replacement types!
Anonymous
Troy Day you need to send your money to help starving Jewish women in Ukraine to go to Israel where they will… wait! Don’t put these poor women in danger!
Anonymous
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4S0TQ2dXnms
Anonymous
https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2012/12/07/religious-groups-official-positions-on-same-sex-marriage/
Anonymous
Hahahaha!