Who are those ‘given’ to Christ in John 6:37? Does this mean that they were selected by God before the foundation of the world, and are ‘elected’ — irrespective of their personal obedience? Charles Page Barry G. Carpenter
Charles Page [07/02/2015 2:47 PM]
yes, unconditional election – basis of biblical grace!
Charles Page [07/02/2015 2:49 PM]
you will never be good enough for HEAVEN contrary to popular American Evangelicalism. .
John Kissinger [07/02/2015 2:52 PM]
If this is the case, there are several crucial questions that must be addressed in John 6:37. For example: when did the “giving” of certain people to the Son take place?
Charles Page [07/02/2015 3:06 PM]
I have an answer from the Primitive Baptist perspective. There twofold aspect to our salvation an eternal one determined from before the foundation of the earth and a conversion experience (the call of the elect regenerate) to come and follow Christ.
One aspect is unconditional and the only requirement to go to heaven and the other conditional and the requirement for entering the Kingdom on earth (conditional and temporal)
I see some of this view expressed in the first and second works of grace once preached in the Church of God.
Charles Page [07/02/2015 3:07 PM]
I hear this view in discussion of positional and practical works of grace.
John Kissinger [07/02/2015 3:07 PM]
Are you going in the direction of general call to the world and special call to the elect, or this is a different theory?
Charles Page [07/02/2015 3:07 PM]
that is a different fire upon the altar!
Charles Page [07/02/2015 3:08 PM]
I don’t adhere to a well meant offer! (free offer)
Barry G. Carpenter [07/02/2015 7:23 PM]
Good question. I don’t like proof texts out of context but let’s look at it. “All that the Father gives me will come to me…” So do “all” (each and every person in the world) come to Jesus? No. What is the logical conclusion based upon this proof text? Because the text says “all given will come.” Those who do not come were those who were not given. Reading further to v.39 “…all that He has given I loose none…” What about those who “Fall away”? Like Judas, for example. He appeared to be one of the disciples but Jesus will call him the son of perdition. Those who appear to be disciples but Fall away were lost. So is Jesus a liar? Of course this is not possible. Judas was a false disciple and was not preserved because he was not “given” (elected”) by the Father. v.39″all given..I will raise up at the last day.” Notice the stream in this passage. The Father gives Jesus a people. At a point in time those people come to Jesus. And Jesus raises them up to life at the resurrection. From eternity past, through time to eternity in heaven. I want to separate myself here from Charles. I am not Primitive Baptist- I do not accept the concept of eternal justification, etc. Re: general & special call: I think even the Arminian or unaffiliated will have to place a “limit” somewhere. The Bible says that hearing the Word is necessary for salvation (Rom. 10:17). That Jesus is the only way to salvation (John 3:35; John 14:6, 1 Tim. 2;5). So I ask how many people will die today who have never heard the Word of God and never heard the name Jesus? Sitting here in SE Asia this morning let me sadly share with you that there are very many.
Charles Page [07/02/2015 7:30 PM]
I like the old fashion Baptist debate between Missions Baptist and anti-missions Baptist about 1830 and then the SBC formed in 1850 as a missions Baptist.
There were sharp divisions between the Andrew Fullerites and the followers of John Gill. The Fullerites formed the basis for the modern moderated Calvinist and Baptist reformed ie, Founder’s Ministry. The Primitive Baptist were the anti-missions.
My leaning is with the anti-missions group.
Charles Page [07/02/2015 7:31 PM]
follow the money trail on this argument and see the real outcome.
Barry G. Carpenter [07/02/2015 7:41 PM]
Now to person obedience. Is faith & repentance necessary for salvation. Absolutely! No protestant could possibly believe otherwise. But “being dead in trespasses and sins” (Eph. 2:1-5; Col. 2:13, etc.), unable to understand the things of God (1 Cor.2:14) man cannot and will not of his own power come to God. Like Lazarus in the tomb receives the call to come out, with the outward call he receives the inward power of life to obey. So then salvation is truly a gift of God and not of man (Eph. 2:8-9; James 1:17; Titus 3:5-7, etc., etc.).
Charles Page [07/02/2015 8:16 PM]
for a PB faith and repentance are conditions of temporal salvation (conversion) Lazarus needed life in order to come forth. He did not come forth because he obeyed but because Christ spoke the command to live again. He subsequent salvation consisting in being unwrapped which was conditional on ‘unwrapping’
He was not alive because he consented to being unwrapped but was unwrapped because he had life again.
We are not born again because we repent but we repent because we have been born again.
John Kissinger [07/02/2015 9:33 PM]
The idea that believers were unconditionally “given” to Christ, in the eternal counsel of God before the foundation of the world, is negated by this very passage.The verb “gives” (didosin) is a present tense form, indicating action in progress; the Father, at that very time, was in the process of giving certain ones to his Son.This passage cannot possibly be employed, then, to establish a “done-deal” gift back in pre-world eternity The giving’ implies a present activity of grace, not a foregone conclusion.
Jon Sellers [07/03/2015 12:22 AM]
I never understood how looking to Lazarus is supposed to teach us what it is like to be “dead in sins”. The story of Lazarus points us to the reality of Christ’s power and authority to raise us from the dead after we die. It offers us assurance that our hope in his promise of resurrection is not in vain. It has nothing to do with the spiritual state of unbelievers.
Was Lazarus an unbeliever or did he believe Jesus to be the Messiah? It is very likely that Lazarus shared the same faith as Mary and Martha. So he did believe.
My neighbor is an unbeliever and is “dead in his sins”. Yet, he lives, has a family, mows his yard, goes to work. I spoke to him today. He is very much alive as a human being and as such possesses all the normal functions and abilities of human beings including believing in many things. He may not perceive the truth of Jesus Christ. If he were to die today he would die in his sins. So because of that he is dead in his sins until he believes, but that does not mean he cannot receive Christ and believe. Do people wake up one day and believe in Jesus? No, it takes the revelation of Christ through the working of the Holy Spirit to open their eyes. But that is not regeneration. That is the opening that allows for faith, that enables faith, but faith then activates God to regenerate them.
Jon Sellers [07/03/2015 2:11 AM]
We have to remember that the Father and the Son and the Spirit are always working in unity and harmony.
Also, a large number of the people turned away from Jesus in John 6. So they were not given to him by virtue of the fact that they did not continue to follow him. Their motives were fleshly. This is part of the ministry of Jesus. His winnowing fork is in his hands. He separates the wheat from the chaff. The ones the Father gives continue to follow.
So who did the Father promise to Jesus? Ezekiel prophesied that the dry bones would live. This prophecy points forward to the time when some of the people would believe in the Messiah. Also, Jeremiah prophesies of a time when their stony hearts would be turned to flesh in a new covenant. And even when Elijah thought he was the only one faithful, God had 7000 who were faithful to Him. So the ones the Father gives to the Son are the ones promised by prophecy. The promise is that there would be a remnant. Not all of Israel would be lost. And in the Gospel of John, that vision is extended to all of mankind as Jesus is the light that enlightens all. He has come to the whole world.
And in John 3 only some come to the light. The explanation is not because they were elected by some eternal decree before creation, but “21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”
Others refuse the light not because of some decree of damnation, but because they “loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.”
If John or Jesus had uncondidtional election in his theology this would have been a perfect place to articulate it .John just does not espouse a theology of particular election.
Jon Sellers [07/03/2015 2:19 AM]
Also, in 6:40, Jesus could have articulated the doctrine of particular election, but he gave a different view. He offered that we must act, we must “look”…
40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
So looking and believing are active choices we make in response to the light.
Jon Sellers [07/03/2015 2:35 AM]
Jesus gives us the answer as to who it is that is given to him by the Father.
44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me—
So it is not those elected by eternal decree, but those who have heard and learned from the Father. That would require them to be alive, taught after they were born, not elected before they existed. How were they taught and how did they learn. David gives us some insight in Psalm 119.
And Isaiah 54:13
All your children shall be taught by the Lord,
and great shall be the peace of your children.
Barry G. Carpenter [07/03/2015 5:30 AM]
(Let me point out this point that the issue of “husband” remains unresolved- in light of the term “sinners” always being feminine; I never got confirmation on whether or not Semi-Pel & Armin. are both synergestic, etc. So this seems a piling on without a proper response from your -the Arminian – side). Does v. 44-45 erase the previous verses? (1) “every one who looks/repenrts/believes/has faith, etc. etc.” will be saved. There is no debate here. We agree. The issue is ability & origin. I suppose the “dead” in Eph. 2 does not really mean dead but has some other meaning? I suppose the “cannot understand the things of God” given in 1 Cor. 2:14 is wrong and the sinner REALLY can understand and the Bible just got it wrong? This is what we call “cherry picking” – choosing the verses that support a position while ignoring the ones that do not. AND this is why I asked about “systematic theology earlier. My impression is maybe you don’t know what that means? (not an insult – still just asking). —Eternal decree: What does “before the foundation of the world” mean then if not eternal decree? I would be interested in how you deal with verses like Rev. 13:8 “All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.” NOTE: Names NOT written before the foundation of the world. We have election & reprobation here (and repeated in Rev. 17:8). How can this not be eternal decree?
Pentecostal Theology [07/03/2015 7:25 AM]
“There is nothing about God’s gift of believers to be the heritage of the Son who died for them which somehow transforms the Gospel’s ‘whosoever will’ into a ‘whosoever must’ and a ‘most of you shan’t.‘There is nothing about it which binds men in the strait jacket of an antecedent decree of positive unconditional election and reprobation, while insisting that they are ’free’” (Robert Shank: Life in the Son, p. 339).
John Kissinger [07/03/2015 7:35 AM]
Jon Sellers according to Charles Page Jesus stretched His “meat hook” and to bring Lazarus back to life! Never mind to some Lazarus was already saved before he ever died the first time. According to the Bible, however, there is a significant connection between the “giving” and the “coming” in John 6:37. The “giving” represents what God has provided in the great plan of human salvation; the “coming” represents the acceptation of that plan as manifested in the sinner’s obedience. Clearly in vv. 44-45 the drawing is accomplished by hearing God’s word, learning, and coming to salvation. God provides the redemptive information, but humanity must access it. The term [gives] therefore (here and at ver. 39 and 65 in holistic context) must signify something compatible with the free agency of man!
Charles Page [07/03/2015 10:27 AM]
according to the KJV Bible Jesus spoke the word commanding Lazarus to come forth. The Pelagians use a meathook to retrieve the body and then witness to it hoping through discussions that Lazarus would come to life.
Jon Sellers [07/03/2015 2:13 PM]
Charles Page , I personally don’t care what Pelagius thought. I don’t think there are any of his followers on this page. Do you really think that Jesus raised Lazarus in order to prove monergism?
Did Lazarus die having seen the Messiah and putting his faith in him? Or did he die in his sins?
Charles Page [07/03/2015 2:20 PM]
It is my belief that (IMHO) theology can be divided between Monergism and Pelagianism/semi-Pelagianism
Jesus raised Lazarus because he was dead – some people speculate that he raised him to demonstrate his power, mere speculation. Lazarus sister pleaded with Jesus and he wept! He did not care what monergist nor Pelagians thought!
It is the same mind set of God when he regenerates his elect.
John Kissinger [07/03/2015 3:26 PM]
What is then the meaning of the affirmation, I will in no wise cast out? Some allege it suggests the dogma of the impossibility of apostasy, i.e., that no one “given” to Christ in the eternal scheme of things could ever be lost.The child of God, therefore, can never fall from grace — or so it is claimed. The passage does not even remotely suggest this pernicious doctrine. This expression then does cannot refer to the doctrine of perseverance of the saints, but to the fact that Jesus will not reject or refuse any sinner who comes to him.