Can YOU explain When did Satan fall from the Heavens without GAP THEORY?

When did Satan fall from the Heavens
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144 Comments

  • Reply January 23, 2019

    Varnel Watson

    The BIBLE speaks of really one place when that could have happened Everything else is but a deviation from the truth Rico Hero Gary Micheal Epping

  • Reply January 23, 2019

    Jerome Herrick Weymouth

    Faster than a bolt of lightning!!!

    • Reply January 23, 2019

      Varnel Watson

      you better believe it

  • Reply January 23, 2019

    Varnel Watson

    Gary Micheal Epping satan cant be free falling – it has to be defined in time

  • Reply January 23, 2019

    Jerome Herrick Weymouth

    Satan fell the second he thought he was going to take over. And probably it happened in Preincarnate times

  • Reply January 23, 2019

    Varnel Watson

    YES indeed – when exactly was that?

  • Reply January 23, 2019

    Jerome Herrick Weymouth

    Well in Pre- incarnate times or in “eternity past” as Bible Teacher Howard C Estep would say.

  • Reply January 23, 2019

    Gary Micheal Epping

    Some YEC proponent is going to say that the angels were created during the creation week or soon after. If that were true, then it would have been described in the 7 days of creation like everything else that was created. There is nothing at all describing the creation of Lucifer, much less his fall in the creation account in Genesis. That leaves only one other timeframe; before the 7 days.

  • Reply January 23, 2019

    Jerome Herrick Weymouth

    7 days? 7 thousand days? 7 million days? Nobody knows…

  • Reply January 23, 2019

    Varnel Watson

    Gary Micheal Epping I’ve heard everything and anything explained away on this question but no straight answer as of in WHEN? Like After Gen 1:1 and before Gen 1:2 – straight forward

    • Reply January 24, 2019

      Robert Franzen

      Troy Day , “straight forward”? You can’t even prove the gap theory – so how can it be true if the theory isn’t true?
      You said once before, to my disbelief, that it doesn’t matter if the theory isn’t true, that’s when Satan fell. ??‍♂️
      I gave an simple Scriptural answer that doesn’t violate any other Scripture & uses no theories. I know you don’t agree with it & that’s fine; but to deny another answer exists is like you denying the green wall isn’t green. You can say this lie all you want to but the fact remains. Maybe I should be more patient with asininity & say you’re not lying just denying &/or refusing to accept something just because you don’t believe it. I’m not asking you to believe it, but if you want to be more of a theologian, then you own it to yourself to be able to explain other models.
      Please prove me the gap theory.

  • Reply January 23, 2019

    Jerome Herrick Weymouth

    Yep that’s what Dr Estes would say “between Gen. 1:1 and Gen 1:2.

  • Reply January 23, 2019

    Gary Micheal Epping

    Since the angels were created to first minister and worship God in heaven, they would be needed soon after God made heaven.

  • Reply January 23, 2019

    Varnel Watson

    True – what other explanation could there be? I love when people come to this topic claiming they can prove it all without Gap Theory and very soon the run out of juice – oh well Live is life

  • Reply January 23, 2019

    Jared Cheshire

    Start reading about the woman clothed in the Sun travailing to give birth, What follows that will tell you when.

  • Reply January 24, 2019

    Gary Micheal Epping

    If Lucifer was created during the 6 days, he would not have got to use “thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.” (EX 28:13-14). Why give him musical talent so he could worship God, if he was to be cast out quickly before he could use them? Also Lucifer was also the “anointed cherub that covereth” in that same passage, which is was one the highest ranking angels. They were used for protection , and another one guarded the Garden of Eden after Adam and Eve were expelled (Gen 3:24). Lucifer was used to guard the throne of God in an earlier time, and later to protect and oversee Eden before the earth was laid waste. He was made to serve God inn heaven which lasted a long long time, maybe as long as 15-20 billion years.

    • Reply January 24, 2019

      Jared Cheshire

      Tabrets and Pipes are not musical instruments, but settings for jewels. The oldest copies of the original language and many other translations show that.A tabret is the setting and the pipe is the mount of the setting.

    • Reply January 24, 2019

      Jared Cheshire

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2DVfh9m9pk

      Go to the 7:05 mark of this video.

    • Reply January 25, 2019

      Gary Micheal Epping

      Jared Cheshire So, Lucifer was created with jewels inside of him? Good luck with that. https://av1611.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1085

    • Reply January 25, 2019

      Jared Cheshire

      JPS
      Eze 28:13 thou wast in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the carnelian, the topaz, and the emerald, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the carbuncle, and the smaragd, and gold; the workmanship of thy settings and of thy sockets was in thee, in the day that thou wast created they were prepared.

    • Reply January 25, 2019

      Jared Cheshire

      The “in thee” is not represented in the Hebrew. It was added to the English.

    • Reply January 25, 2019

      Jared Cheshire

      HCSB
      13 You were in Eden, the garden of God.
      Every kind of precious stone covered you:
      carnelian, topaz, and diamond,
      beryl, onyx, and jasper,
      sapphire, turquoise and emerald.
      Your mountings and settings were crafted in gold;
      they were prepared on the day you were created.

    • Reply January 25, 2019

      Jared Cheshire

      and of thy pipesH5345
      נֶקֶב
      neqeb
      nek’-keb

      Strong’s
      A bezel (for a gem)

      BDB Definition:
      1) groove, socket, hole, cavity, settings
      1a) technical term relating to jeweller’s work

    • Reply January 25, 2019

      Jared Cheshire

      was preparedH3559
      כּוּן
      kûn
      koon

      Strong’s
      A primitive root; properly to be erect (that is, stand perpendicular);. hence (causatively) to set up, in a great variety of applications, whether literal (establish, fix, prepare, apply), or figurative (appoint, render sure, proper or prosperous)

      BDB Definition:
      1) to be firm, be stable, be established
      1a) (Niphal)
      1a1) to be set up, be established, be fixed
      1a1a) to be firmly established
      1a1b) to be established, be stable, be secure, be enduring
      1a1c) to be fixed, be securely determined
      1a2) to be directed aright, be fixed aright, be steadfast
      1a3) to prepare, be ready
      1a4) to be prepared, be arranged, be settled
      1b) (Hiphil)
      1b1) to establish, set up, accomplish, do, make firm
      1b2) to fix, make ready, prepare, provide, provide for, furnish
      1b3) to direct toward (moral sense)
      1b4) to arrange, order
      1c) (Hophal)
      1c1) to be established, be fastened
      1c2) to be prepared, be ready
      1d) (Polel)
      1d1) to set up, establish
      1d2) to constitute, make
      1d3) to fix
      1d4) to direct
      1e) (Pulal) to be established, be prepared
      1f) (Hithpolel) to be established, be restored

    • Reply January 25, 2019

      Gary Micheal Epping

      ‘Dang! I was hoping Lucifer was using his Tabrets and Pipes to worship the Lord!

    • Reply January 25, 2019

      Jared Cheshire

      in thee in the dayH3117
      יוֹם
      yôm
      yome

      Strong’s
      From an unused root meaning to be hot; a day (as the warm hours), whether literally (from sunrise to sunset, or from one sunset to the next), or figuratively (a space of time defined by an associated term), (often used adverbially)

      BDB Definition:
      1) day, time, year
      1a) day (as opposed to night)
      1b) day (24 hour period)
      1b1) as defined by evening and morning in Genesis 1
      1b2) as a division of time
      1b2a) a working day, a day’s journey
      1c) days, lifetime (plural)
      1d) time, period (general)
      1e) year
      1f) temporal references
      1f1) today
      1f2) yesterday
      1f3) tomorrow

    • Reply January 25, 2019

      Jared Cheshire

      that thou wast created.H1254
      בָּרָא
      bârâ’
      baw-raw’

      Strong’s
      1. (absolutely) to create.
      2. (qualified) to cut down (a wood).
      3. to select, feed (as formative processes).

      BDB Definition:
      1) to create, shape, form
      1a) (Qal) to shape, fashion, create (always with God as subject)
      1a1) of heaven and earth
      1a2) of individual man
      1a3) of new conditions and circumstances
      1a4) of transformations
      1b) (Niphal) to be created
      1b1) of heaven and earth
      1b2) of birth
      1b3) of something new
      1b4) of miracles
      1c) (Piel)
      1c1) to cut down
      1c2) to cut out
      2) to be fat
      2a) (Hiphil) to make yourselves fat

    • Reply January 25, 2019

      Jared Cheshire

      ESV2011
      13 You were in Eden, the garden of God;
      every precious stone was your covering,
      sardius, topaz, and diamond,
      beryl, onyx, and jasper,
      sapphire,2 emerald, and carbuncle;
      and crafted in gold were your settings
      and your engravings.3
      On the day that you were created
      they were prepared.

    • Reply January 25, 2019

      Jared Cheshire

      NET
      13 ​​​​​​​You were in Eden, the garden of God.
      Every precious stone was your covering,
      the ruby, topaz, and emerald,
      the chrysolite, onyx, and jasper,
      the sapphire, turquoise, and beryl;
      your settings and mounts were made of gold.
      On the day you were created they were prepared.

    • Reply January 25, 2019

      Jared Cheshire

      Tabrets is a little more difficult as there are different Hebrew words used here in different text. They all come from the same root however. It can be translated as “your face”, “your taste” as a part of the face, tambourine as the face of a cymbal, “drum” yes it has a face too, but ultimately is comes down to context. The other thing it can be translated as is “setting” as in the face of a piece of jewelry. Taken in context with the workmanship of gold and the fact that pipes is referring to a bezel for a gem, “settings” is what fits the context.

      Oh, Yes! I did have fun with that, since I don’t believe in luck!

    • Reply January 25, 2019

      Gary Micheal Epping

      So was the bass guitar a jewel too?

    • Reply January 25, 2019

      Jared Cheshire

      I was a sound man for 7 years battling against a bass player, nothing jeweled about that! LOL

    • Reply January 25, 2019

      Rico Hero

      Jared Cheshire Interesting. But even if Tabrets and Pipes were settings for jewles , he was annointed. This means he held a He held a high position. Gary Micheal Epping question still valid ,right ?

    • Reply January 25, 2019

      Varnel Watson

      I dont know I will be long gone

    • Reply January 25, 2019

      Jared Cheshire

      Rico Hero Very high position.

    • Reply January 25, 2019

      Jared Cheshire

      Likely the chief of the throne guards, because that is what Cherubim and Seraphim are.

    • Reply January 25, 2019

      Rico Hero

      Jared Cheshire A cherub is an angel.cherubim look different and are not angels.

    • Reply January 25, 2019

      Jared Cheshire

      Rico Hero what is an angel?

    • Reply January 25, 2019

      Rico Hero

      Angels are created beings who occupied earth before us and look like us snip Do not neglect to show hospitality to strangers, for thereby some have entertained angels unawares

    • Reply January 25, 2019

      Jared Cheshire

      Would not any spirit being that God made that isn’t man be an angel?

    • Reply January 25, 2019

      Jared Cheshire

      The word angel seems very broad and there could be more than one type of angel.

  • Reply January 24, 2019

    Rico Hero

    Gary Micheal Epping According to Hovids PDF file posted by Robert Franzen, they believe “Job 38:7 explains that “all the sons of God,” celebrated a portion of God’s creation. The “sons of God shouted for joy” because God had just “laid the foundations of the earth.” This clearly shows that Satan was created prior to the earth’s foundations begin laid. The “foundations” probably refer to “land,” appearing on the third day of creation”(pg 9) and ” that God had created pipes and tabrets inside of his body”(pg 8). When did he fall? “The timing of Satan’s fall is extremely important to the integrity of the gap theory, since its proponents use it to mark the end of the gap and the beginning of Genesis 1:2. An answer to the time of Satan’s fall can be found with a careful look at the Scriptural accounts of this event. The first clue, found in Isaiah 14:14, records the words of Satan at the time of this fall—”I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.” Since the clouds could not have formed prior to God’s creation of water on day one, Satan fell after day one.” (pg9) Why did he fall? “During these first few years, Adam and Eve were in close fellowship with God, giving Him their total worship and admiration. Satan, observing this relationship, became jealous and wanted man to worship him instead.” (pg10 and 11)

  • Reply January 24, 2019

    Varnel Watson

    Rico Hero where is the said PDF file? BTW did you not post back in the day DAKE’s list of facts on the gap theory + pre-adam and the flood of satan? We may need to repost them if A.J. Bible can help

  • Reply January 24, 2019

    Louise Cummings

    I don’t believe the Bible make that clear. In all my years I have never been able to figure it out. But you might feel it’s clear. Some thinks between Genesis 1:2. Or before Genesis 1: but I haven’t seen that clearly. I know the world was without form and void. I know Dake’s teaches it. I think so does Perry Stone if im not mistaken. And the Giants was back then. I’m just not sure.

  • Reply January 24, 2019

    Louise Cummings

    I have seen Revelatjt 12: explained. Well I’ll get to the women first. That was Israel. I think probably that’s true. It is where the Messiah came through. Bethlehem Of Judea. Satan has always tried to destroy Him alright. It is said the woman symbolizes Gods people, Old Covenant Israel. Through whom the Messiah came forth.Rev: 12:4-5.of course. The red dragon I Satan. This days Seven diadems identify him with the last of the Gentile rulers who will be represented by the Beast ( see 13:1-10. And Daniel 7:-8. ). Some scholars feel that a third of the stars of Heaven is symbolic of the angels who cast their lot with Satan in his rebellion against God. They are the principalities and powers against whom all believers wrestle. (Ephesians 6:12. ). It keeps going on and on. It’s deeper than I understand. But those comments was from KJV of the Bible in Revelation 12:

  • Reply January 24, 2019

    Varnel Watson

    I still havent seen noone pin point it to a timeline

    • Reply January 24, 2019

      Jared Cheshire

      Some time after the birth of Jesus. The woman travailed to give birth and the dragon, that old serpent called the devil and Satan, was there to devour the Child (Jesus the Messiah). “AND THEN” there was a war in heaven in which he was cast down.

    • Reply January 24, 2019

      Jared Cheshire

      It also couldn’t be explained by the Gap Theory because we see him presenting himself before God in the book of Job. If he were cast down from heaven to earth, how did he get back to heaven?

    • Reply January 24, 2019

      Varnel Watson

      As we’ve discussed with Link Heiser tries to explain that in a much different way Job 38:4-7 says Angels already existed in a state of grace when God “laid the foundations of the Earth”, so there had been at least one creative act of God before the six days of Genesis

    • Reply January 24, 2019

      Jared Cheshire

      I agree with that part, I just cannot find any fall before Gen 3 and I think that was prophetic and not something that happened instantly. I think, his fall, the serpent that is, was an accumulation of events. And that “think” is subjective to more evidence.

    • Reply January 25, 2019

      Link Hudson

      Troy Day If the sons of God rejoiced when God laid the foundation of the earth, doesn’t that imply that they existed at that time?

    • Reply January 25, 2019

      Jared Cheshire

      Link Hudson Agreed

    • Reply January 25, 2019

      Varnel Watson

      Yes Link Hudson but it still doesnt answer the Job question Jared Cheshire posed earlier with great importance

  • Reply January 24, 2019

    David Levandusky

    Angels were created before the earth. There were Galaxies and God had made before He made the Milky Way universe with all its stars and planets. They were angels then as well. When God created the heavens and the earth in our Galaxy the morning stars sang together – the angels rejoiced. It was then at the creation of the earth Satan fell. Jesus said I saw Satan as lightning fall from heaven,. Lucifer means – shining one. He was trying then to exalt himself above the stars of God and become like the Most High. God cast Him out of Heaven from around the throne of Music – and this earth became his domain. He would be allowed to bring testing’s to Adam and Eve to test their will and love for God. And he has been doing it ever since. But is days are numbered – he will be cast into the Lake of Fire and I read the back of the Book AND WE WIN. Now has that for an answer I really dont know much of what I’m talking about. But a lot of it is sure I do know. 🙂

    • Reply January 25, 2019

      Jared Cheshire

      “There were Galaxies and God had made before He made the Milky Way universe with all its stars and planets.”

      Do you have scripture for that? Is it based on a Biblical cosmology, or a Copernican cosmology?

    • Reply January 25, 2019

      Varnel Watson

      now we are deep into Biblical cosmology UFOs

    • Reply January 25, 2019

      David Levandusky

      Jared Cheshire It is based on David Levandusky cosmology. 🙂 No UFO’s although I’ve heard preachers preach there is life on other planets – maybe not human life as we know it. Questionable

    • Reply January 25, 2019

      Jared Cheshire

      So no scripture. I got it.

    • Reply January 25, 2019

      Jared Cheshire

      Troy Day where are there UFOs in the Bible? The Only place I have seen it a huge stretch by people taking huge liberties in interpretation, ie lying about what the Bible says.

    • Reply January 25, 2019

      Varnel Watson

      that type of cosmology involves UFOs from Mars

    • Reply January 25, 2019

      Jared Cheshire

      LOL, No that is a construct of man, not Biblical. Biblical Cosmology is Gen 1 and all the other 160+ times that the makeup of the heavens and Earth are described.

    • Reply January 25, 2019

      Varnel Watson

      do you now see fallen angels as the original UFOs?

    • Reply January 25, 2019

      Jared Cheshire

      no

    • Reply January 25, 2019

      Varnel Watson

      cant help you there 🙂

    • Reply January 25, 2019

      Jared Cheshire

      If we know them to be angels they wouldn’t have been unidentified. Besides that Ancient Alien doctrine was invented by people trying to discredit God as simply a more advanced being and not truly God.

  • Reply January 25, 2019

    Varnel Watson

    hey Tom Steele ppl say the Torah does NOT address this – tell us pls from your reading what does it say per OP?

    • Reply January 25, 2019

      Tom Steele

      My comment on the other post wasn’t exactly an open invitation to tag me into a bunch of posts, LOL. I am at work right now, and have several things to tend to when I get off. I doubt I will be able to commit a lot of time to replying to posts on here today.

    • Reply January 25, 2019

      Varnel Watson

      well we will hear you on this after work -Dont you work for Rod Parsley anyway? He dont mind you posting

    • Reply January 25, 2019

      Tom Steele

      No, I work for the Federal Government. And no, I am not effected by the shut down.

    • Reply January 25, 2019

      Tom Steele

      My ministry credentials are through Parsley’s credentialing organization, which is now called the City Harvest Network. For whatever it means. I personally think it’s silly that people should be “credentialed” by some organization to minister… particularly when so many who gain such credentials are clearly not qualified to hold them and there are lots of people who would be more than qualified who do not possess ministry credentials. But I suppose there is some wisdom in being connected to a network of ministers and being recognized by a parent organization as having met whatever “requirements” they deem worthy for ministry.

    • Reply January 25, 2019

      Varnel Watson

      hahaah right Federal Government 🙂

  • Reply January 25, 2019

    Rico Hero

    no because different discriptions are given as to what each look like

  • Reply January 25, 2019

    Jared Cheshire

    Exactly yes, the Cherubim and Seraphim, (synonymous depending on the writer’s background) are a type of angel.

  • Reply January 25, 2019

    Rico Hero

    Jared Cheshire The discriptions of them are not close to be seen as type of angels.

  • Reply January 25, 2019

    Jared Cheshire

    You do realize that Cherubim is the plural of Cherub, and you previously stated that a cherub was an angel.

  • Reply January 25, 2019

    Jared Cheshire

    cher·ubDictionary result for cherub
    /ˈCHerəb/Submit
    noun
    plural noun: cherubim
    a winged angelic being described in biblical tradition as attending on God. It is represented in ancient Middle Eastern art as a lion or bull with eagles’ wings and a human face, and regarded in traditional Christian angelology as an angel of the second highest order of the ninefold celestial hierarchy.
    synonyms: angel, seraph

  • Reply January 25, 2019

    Rico Hero

    Jared Cheshire I understand that, but discriptions are different. seraphim (Isa. 6:1-8), and cherubim (Ezek. 1:4-28; 10:1-22). angels look like us — so dont forget to show hospitality to strangers for some have entertained angels unaware

  • Reply January 25, 2019

    Jared Cheshire

    angels can take on our form, that doesn’t mean they always look like us.

  • Reply January 25, 2019

    Rico Hero

    Jared Cheshire what makes you think they are shapeshifters .

  • Reply January 25, 2019

    Gary Micheal Epping

    Daddy sang bass makes me wonder if there was some kind of bass player or singer in Lucifer’s worship of the Lord back in heaven before the time of man?

  • Reply January 25, 2019

    Jared Cheshire

    Rico Hero The Bible. There are several references to angels appearing in different forms Regardless of the reason, the gap theory has gained considerable support from several modern theologians. These theologians, such as Arthur C. Custance, author of Without Form and Void (1970), and well known preachers Billy Graham, Peter Ruckman, and John Hagee, have adopted the gap theory, in one form or another. As mentioned earlier, a clear distinction must be made when considering the proponents of the gap theory. Some gap theorists have arrived at their conclusions based upon their preconceived idea that the earth is billions of years old. They are schooled in the uniformitarian mindset and have chosen the gap theory as a means of placing their needed time into the Biblical framework. Other gap theorists simply hold their position because it was how they were taught to interpret certain passages of Scripture

  • Reply January 26, 2019

    Gary Micheal Epping

    After he sinned. Regardless of the reason, the gap theory has gained considerable support from several modern theologians. These theologians, such as Arthur C. Custance, author of Without Form and Void (1970), and well known preachers Billy Graham, Peter Ruckman, and John Hagee, have adopted the gap theory, in one form or another. As mentioned earlier, a clear distinction must be made when considering the proponents of the gap theory. Some gap theorists have arrived at their conclusions based upon their preconceived idea that the earth is billions of years old. They are schooled in the uniformitarian mindset and have chosen the gap theory as a means of placing their needed time into the Biblical framework. Other gap theorists simply hold their position because it was how they were taught to interpret certain passages of Scripture

  • Reply January 26, 2019

    Gary Micheal Epping

    Troy Day No you won’t. You will be helping me evangelize the lost. No relaxing and playing a harp until later after the tribulation.

  • Reply January 26, 2019

    Varnel Watson

    See Gary Micheal Epping you get it We arrive AT original sin an no one really can explain it without Gap Theory – no one can explain HOW SIN got into the creation That’s a major problem for non-gappers Jared Cheshire

    • Reply January 26, 2019

      Jared Cheshire

      Sin got in through the deviation from God’s plan.

    • Reply January 26, 2019

      Varnel Watson

      was already in Eden before Adam and Eve?

    • Reply January 26, 2019

      Jared Cheshire

      Here is another question. What came first, Eden or Adam?

    • Reply January 26, 2019

      Varnel Watson

      you tell us now

    • Reply January 26, 2019

      Jared Cheshire

      Gen 2 tells you that Eden came first and Adam was created outside of it, then placed in it.

    • Reply January 26, 2019

      Varnel Watson

      I believe that

    • Reply January 26, 2019

      Jared Cheshire

      The reason I asked is that there are some that say that the garden was created after Adam and was for him. I don’t believe that. I think that the garden of God was where God held council and Adam was the first creature outside of the spiritual realm that was invited to be in council with God.

    • Reply January 26, 2019

      Varnel Watson

    • Reply January 26, 2019

      Jared Cheshire

      Troy Day The chronology of Gen two is obviously different than Gen 1. I don’t believe the nonsense of separate writers.

    • Reply January 26, 2019

      Varnel Watson

      are we talking about 2 creation stories?

  • Reply January 26, 2019

    Varnel Watson

    When was Satan created, and when did he fall from Heaven?The Bible, unlike some other religious documents, teaches that Satan was a created being; the anointed cherub of God. Ezekiel 28:14). Known as Lucifer, Satan is thought to have been the chief musician of heaven due to the fact that God had created pipes and tabrets inside of his body (Ezekiel 28:13). God had named Satan and the angels the “sons of God” (Genesis 6:2; Job 1:6; Job 2:1; Job 38;7), a title given only to those that were created directly by God and not born to parents. Even Adam, since he was created directly by God, is referred to in this manner (Luke 3:38). The bible clearly teaches that Satan was created, and that he was not co-eternal with God

    • Reply January 26, 2019

      Jared Cheshire

      The word satan means adversary and it wasn’t even used until 1 Chronicles in the KJV. It is used to describe angels, men, and even God Himself as the in the story of Balam.

    • Reply January 26, 2019

      Varnel Watson

      ok lets use Lucifer instead

    • Reply January 26, 2019

      Jared Cheshire

      There is issues with that as well. LOL 😉

    • Reply January 26, 2019

      Varnel Watson

      no issue if you are not looking for one

    • Reply January 26, 2019

      Jared Cheshire

      Lucifer is only mentioned once in the Bible under that name. That is also a name for Venus. Do you see an issue? A friend brought up the fact that Lucifer was used in an address to the King of Tyre, and presented the argument that Lucifer wasn’t the one we call the devil. I thought he was off his rocker.

    • Reply January 26, 2019

      Jared Cheshire

      The more I studied it the more I realized that Lucifer is another demonic personage.

    • Reply January 26, 2019

      Jared Cheshire

      My friend thinks that Lucifer was referring to the king himself, and he had a decent argument. But I think it is more than that.

    • Reply January 26, 2019

      Jared Cheshire

      As I said Lucifer is another name for Venus. The light giver, the morning star, the queen mother of heaven, who births the sun. Other names for this goddess are Diana, Isis, Semrantis, Ashtoreth, etc. She was the wife/mother of Nimrod, mother of Tammuz, the deified queen of Babylonian paganism. I think Lucifer is just another name for the spirit behind that false god. The king of Tyre is believed by many to be one of the 7 anti-christ figures referred to in Rev 17. Nimrod being the 1st. Following that logic, the study I have been looking into suggests that the same spirit inhabited or at the least influenced these 7 men, so I have been researching whether the spirit that inhabited Nimrod’s wife/mother was present in other places. While I haven’t reached a solid conclusion yet, the research is proving interesting and promising in the affirmative.

    • Reply January 26, 2019

      Varnel Watson

      do you believe the devil sin before Adam? http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/did-the-devil-sin-before-adam/

    • Reply January 26, 2019

      Jared Cheshire

      The word says he was a murderer from the beginning. The question here seems to be the beginning of what?

  • Reply January 26, 2019

    Rico Hero

    Jared Cheshire post the references of angels appearing in different forms

  • Reply January 26, 2019

    Varnel Watson

    angels in forms – pls post only Biblical references; I do not wish this great discussion to go sideways again toward Heisers many sons as it did when we discussed it with Link

  • Reply January 26, 2019

    Varnel Watson

    do you believe the devil sin before Adam? http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/did-the-devil-sin-before-adam/

  • Reply January 26, 2019

    Link Hudson

    Jared Cheshire Angel means messenger. The Bible does not say that seraphim are angels or that cherubim are angels or that seraphim or cherubim. The Bible does not tell us there are 9 orders of angels either.

  • Reply January 26, 2019

    Varnel Watson

    so Link Hudson you think a fiery snake can hold a sword? with what?

  • Reply January 26, 2019

    Varnel Watson

    Robert Franzen the book you posted – still not your book though – claims Gap theory says Lucifer and the angels were crated on Day 1 – What am I missing here? This is a major misrepresentation of Gap Theory and the whole Bible Why is this necessary at all? Following, most of the things you’ve posted on the timing of Lucifer’s fall has been how well you dont know when Lucifer’s fall occured. Well, that still dosent answer the question WHEN, now does it? Gary Micheal Epping already told you that

  • Reply January 26, 2019

    Louise Cummings

    There are some where the 12 stars as the 12 tribes of Israel.

  • Reply January 26, 2019

    Varnel Watson

    Robert Franzen Obviously I am not the know-it-all you think I am I do not have answers to ALL your questions. But I do have an answer to this one question:

    CAN YOU EXPLAIN WHEN DID SATAN FALL FROM THE HEAVENS WITHOUT GAP THEORY?

    The straight forward answer in your case has been:
    NO…

    • Reply January 26, 2019

      Link Hudson

      Revelation doesn’t say it already happened or when it happen(s)(ed).

    • Reply January 26, 2019

      Varnel Watson

      another strawman? are you saying satan has not fallen yet?

  • Reply January 28, 2019

    Jon Ruthven

    He fell when Jesus ascended. “And I heard a great voice in heaven, saying, Now is come the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, who accuseth them before our God day and night.” (Rev 12).

  • Reply February 29, 2020

    Varnel Watson

    Shane Bellamy you can pick one of both of these two OPs but I perceive hard times explaining when and how with NO GAP theory

  • Reply February 29, 2020

    Shane Bellamy

    I click on the link and only get the comments to the article.

    • Reply March 1, 2020

      Varnel Watson

      the link is a discussion – thats all

    • Reply March 1, 2020

      Shane Bellamy

      Troy Day didn’t get the discussion! Only adds and further comments(recent) on the discussion.

      Some links have worked with the discussion included and other links seemed to just be ads and recent comments with out the discussion transcript!!

      All good I’m getting the gist of it from other links

  • Reply March 1, 2020

    Isara Mo

    Troy the important QUESTION is not WHEN did Satan fall but how long was he(Satan) with God before he was thrown down(heaven is UP and earth is DOWN spiritually but not scientifically).
    Angels learn and know the secret council of the Most High…
    If Satan was the ANNOINTED Cherub… and he came to earth with his corrupted Annointing wasn’t it a trifling thing to deceive ADAM and EVE..
    And if he still has that ability to deceive(am sure he has because of the great deception and delusions even amongst the elect) then our concerns should be LORD SHOW US HOW TO TREAD THE SERPENT AND THE SCORPION AND HOW TO OVERCOME ALL THE POWERS OF THE EVIL ONE…
    It is a sobering fact that Satan lives amongst US.. and hated us.. and wants to KILL US…
    But it is also heartening to know that we have a loving Father who is the ALL powerful ONE in JESUS and THROUGH JESUS.

    • Reply March 1, 2020

      Varnel Watson

      there you go – this is a series of discussions We have answered your question before as well The MOST important thing is that it happened between v 1 and v 2 of Gen 1

    • Reply March 1, 2020

      Isara Mo

      Troy Day
      If we discuss Satan we give him a favor he doesn’t deserve.
      We can’t kill him nor thrown him away but at least we can make him find no place to settle..or rest.
      When we discuss him we give airtime and he doesn’t deserve that..
      Let’s discus the WORD.. He Satan doesn’t love that.
      Three years ago I had a very demonic attack and the devil said WHY ARE YOU TELLING THEM THD TRUTH…?
      Doesn’t like to be exposed.
      It is established that a SNAKE is already in your bedroom. You don’t discuss with your wife when it came it but the IMMEDIATE response is to take a club and crush it..
      Discussions later..

    • Reply March 1, 2020

      Varnel Watson

      Isara Mo Gap creationism became increasingly attractive near the end of the 18th and first half of the 19th centuries, because the newly established science of geology had determined that the Earth was far older than common interpretations of Genesis and the Bible-based flood geology would allow. Gap creation allowed religious geologists (who composed the majority of the geological community at the time) to reconcile their faith in the Bible with the new authority of science. According to the doctrine of natural theology, science was in this period considered a second revelation, God’s word in nature as well as in Scripture, so the two could not contradict each other

  • Reply March 1, 2020

    Varnel Watson

    Shane Bellamy The BIBLE speaks of really one place when that could have happened Everything else is but a deviation from the truth Isara Mo satan cant be free falling – it has to be defined in time

    Some YEC proponent is going to say that the angels were created during the creation week or soon after. If that were true, then it would have been described in the 7 days of creation like everything else that was created. There is nothing at all describing the creation of Lucifer, much less his fall in the creation account in Genesis. That leaves only one other timeframe; before the 7 days. Gary Micheal Epping

    I’ve heard everything and anything explained away on this question but no straight answer as of in WHEN? Like After Gen 1:1 and before Gen 1:2 – straight forward

    If Lucifer was created during the 6 days, he would not have got to use “thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.” (EX 28:13-14). Why give him musical talent so he could worship God, if he was to be cast out quickly before he could use them? Also Lucifer was also the “anointed cherub that covereth” in that same passage, which is was one the highest ranking angels. They were used for protection , and another one guarded the Garden of Eden after Adam and Eve were expelled (Gen 3:24). Lucifer was used to guard the throne of God in an earlier time, and later to protect and oversee Eden before the earth was laid waste. He was made to serve God inn heaven which lasted a long long time, maybe as long as 15-20 billion years.

    what other explanation could there be? I love when people come to this topic claiming they can prove it all without Gap Theory and very soon the run out of juice – oh well Live is life

    • Reply March 1, 2020

      Shane Bellamy

      Troy Day why doesn’t it describe the previous creation like in the same way you are expecting it to describe the angels in this creation.

      As far I can glean from scripture the angels are part of the host of heaven and some angels are involved as part of the counsel of God.

  • Reply March 1, 2020

    Steve Losee

    I don’t believe he has yet

  • Reply March 1, 2020

    Varnel Watson

    well you are another strange bird Steve Losee

  • Reply March 1, 2020

    Shane Bellamy

    Lots of important A’s I’m at work now so can’t get distracted from FB

  • Reply March 1, 2020

    Leonard Ransil

    Troy, do you believe your quote to be “true science” – or just what some thought was true?

    “Gap creationism became increasingly attractive near the end of the 18th and first half of the 19th centuries, because the newly established science of geology had determined that the Earth was far older than common interpretations of Genesis and the Bible-based flood geology would allow. Gap creation allowed religious geologists (who composed the majority of the geological community at the time) to reconcile their faith in the Bible with the new authority of science.”
    Has there been a discussion of “a young earth model” in your archives? If not, I’d like to start one. Recent DNA discoveries shed a lot of new insight into this fascinating topic. Lenny

  • Reply March 2, 2020

    Richard Shelton

    Whenever God kicked him out.

  • Reply March 2, 2020

    James P Bowers

    Before my time. Lol

    • Reply March 2, 2020

      Varnel Watson

      how does this make you feel?

  • Well the dragons got in a big fight an swords were drawn many died. The bones fell to earth …all us peons call them dinosaurs…the rest of the bad boys and their leader Lucifer was throwed out by God his self and that’s a fact Jack….yours truly, Festus Hagan esq.

  • Reply March 2, 2020

    Varnel Watson

    Richard Shelton Mitchell Effie Catron the specificity of yalls responses to this otherwise important OP is simply theologically stunning at first glance But then it dont really add nothing to the discussion

  • Satan is refered to as a dragon that was cast out…dinosaur-terrible lizard..I don’t know

  • Reply March 2, 2020

    Varnel Watson

    Mitchell Effie Catron so when did he fall? because what Shane Bellamy said – when GOD declared creation has not much meaning EXCEPT IF it explains

    the creation of the world vs the worlds
    and the fall from heaven vs the heavens

    Ricky Grimsley

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