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GO through Tribulation (Things Jesus NEVER said)
Anonymous
JESUS never said this Neil Steven Lawrence Junior Beasley dont worry bout Link Hudson who is no theologian and can produce no shred of evidence And Philip Williams is not even Pentecostal
Anonymous
Troy Day The Rapture serves no purpose if it is Post-Trib.
Anonymous
Neil Steven Lawrence why do you say that.
Anonymous
Troy Day whether or not a poster on this forum is a theologian has no bearing on biblical truth.
Anonymous
Link Hudson haha is this what you tell your boss?
Anonymous
Neil Steven Lawrence cause its just a hop đ for them hip-hop x-tians
Anonymous
Troy Day that would be an irrelevant comment in my workplace
Anonymous
Link Hudson as irrelevant as you are in a theological discussion
At least a few yeas back you passed for a practitioner of the BIBLE
but lately with your business / teaching venture you are just that
Anonymous
Troy Day not sure what you were talking about but doing business and working in the marketplace is not a contaminating activity of one walks with Christ and obeys God.
Anonymous
Link Hudson nothing theological here – just your usual emotional drama
Anonymous
Link Hudson
The rapture is a:
1. Proof of holiness.
2. Reward for faithfulness.
3. A surprised no one knows when it will happen.
4. The sparking point of the great tribulation which will allow the antichrist to take power.
5. A meeting of the Lord in the air, not a coming down to the Earth with the Lord. ďżźďżź
6. An event distinguished by different ďżź scriptural language than the event of the second coming.
7. Will be the point of reconstituting the body, soul and spirit of all believers throughout history â a mighty army, which will ride down seven years later with Jesus to defeat, the antichrist armies, and set up Jesusâ thousand year reign . ďżź
8. Must necessarily ďżź precede the two witnesses, which will also be resurrected visibly in front of the cameras of the whole world as a rebuke to the antichrist kingdom. The two witnesses being brought heavenward in everybodys sight will rebuke the lies of the antichrist that tries to explain away where the 400 million (20% â my guess) ďżź believers disappear to in the pre-TRIB rapture.
9. The scriptures promising God will save the Saints from wrath only makes sense with the timing of the pre-TRIB rapture.
10. It is schizophrenic to say the rapture and the second coming will happen at the same time â up then down in a split second! That idea makes no sense! ďżź ďżź
Anonymous
Neil Steven Lawrence
Point 4.
Read the Bible. Look at II Thessalonians 2:1. The rapture occurs at the coming/parousia according to I Thessalonias 4, the rapture passage. Here in II Thessalonians 2:1 it speaks of the coming/parousia of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering unto Him.
If we look at II Thessalonians 2:8, the very same chapter, we see what else happens at the Lord’s coming– the destruction of the lawless one. Pre-trib has the lawless one get to work at the coming of the Lord. The Bible has the man of sin be destroyed. This contradicts your assertion in point 4 “The sparking point of the great tribulation which will allow the antichrist to take power.”
Point 5– The Bible teaches the Lord is coming back. He descends. We meet him in the air. The language is consistent used to describe situations situations where the inhabitants of a city go out to meet a ruler and escort Him back into the city.
Point 6– the Bible uses the exact same scriptural language to refer to the Second Coming which occurs at the rapture to refer to the Second Coming, so why think the Second Coming will happen seven years before the Second Coming? If there is a coming between the first coming and he second coming, then the second coming is a third coming. Pre-trib language doesn’t make sense. Get a concordance, look up ‘parousia’ and list all the events associated with it.
Point 7. Other scripture clarifies that Christ returns with the holy angels, and that the saints will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air at His coming. Pre-trib relies on trying to explain problems away that do not exist.
Point 8. Why would that be the case? Because you say so?
Point 9. No it doesn’t. There is no evidence for the rapture occuring pre-trib in scripture.
Point 10– It makes sense to believe that the saints ascend and escort Christ back to earth, first because there is no evidence that we are waiting for two parousia, second because it makes sense to interpret references to the parousia as referring to the same thing. That’s not schizophrenic.
Anonymous
Troy Day Just illogical assertions on your part. I do not work at a theology school.
Anonymous
Link Hudson of course you dont No one would believe that you do ! And no theology school will let you work for them as you have stated already
Anonymous
Neil Steven Lawrence Duane L Burgess well Link Hudson is quite wrong of course. The rapture occurs at the coming/parousia according to I Thessalonians 4 – but this does not involve coming to EARTH physically. Linky has no way to explain that of course not knowing greek or the BIBLE – – – he has no way to explain how he defines a meeting in the CLOUDS as coming to earth – NOT the same thing of course in the greek or the BIBLE
to get out of it ONCE somewhere on the internet he proposed the church will NOT go to heaven – he did not claim this. He later denied this many times. But he alluded it in a fake theory hypothesis of as interpretation his private revelations. The purpose of the resurrection of the saints is of course there going to heaven – link missed the resurrection of the saints too …
So he cannot explain HOW are the saints coming BACK with the Lord riding on white horses behind JESUS the Resurrector as a final annunciation of His resurrection power over His own creation. They cannot zap rapture in a sec mount the horses and be coming back already It does not work like that Michael Chauncey Junior Beasley
Furthermore Link cannot explain HOW Jesus in the clouds is seen alone
But Jesus returning on earth is not alone but with the saints
Link tries to get around all these with mix and matching cherry picked verses he has not taken time to look up in the original Greek |
NOTHING new here – just more drama as Link dismantles someone else’s writing but has NEVER presented his own FULL eschatological plan so we can ask him questions and dismantle in the same manner
AND ONCE again on his phone or walkie talkie he is in the WRONG OP not even discussing this OP that Jesus never said the church will go through Trib – his belief of the end times is basically his own justification via his own martyrdom Oh Well WHO needs Jesus or going to heaven like that?
Anonymous
Troy Day 1st Thess.4:13-18 messes them up. I’ve been hinting st it a couple days now got a couple to bite but won’t answer. Lok
Anonymous
Link Hudson
One scripture that most people ignore, but it clearly shows the rapture and Jesus remaining in the clouds in heaven, after the rapture takes place.
Revelation 14:14â16.
âďżźI looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one like a son of man with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand. Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, âTake your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.â So he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested.â
Where does this fit in the fake Post-TRIB dual synchronous parousia scheme? ďżź
Anonymous
Neil Steven Lawrence Look at the context
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
Why would the voice say that about the dead dying in the Lord if the rest of the living in the Lord were immediately rapture right after? And the harvest of the grapes produced blood up to the bridles.
One thing I notice with pre-tribbers is that they start with the pre-trib assumption, then build their case on apocalyptic type literature— which can be interpreted numerous ways– while at the same time claiming to be literal– instead of focusing on the straight-forward didactic passages and interpreting the allegorical passages from that perspective.
What we see in Paul’s writings is that the rapture is associated with the parousia, and the lawless one is destroyed at the parousia.
Anonymous
Link Hudson why would you consider anyone coming from Trib gentiles and not Jews? Just interested in your logic here since the only saints Revelation speaks of pass ch4 are always Jewish There is a great consistency John uses in this and Duane L Burgess have shown as of why per Mt24 – just out of logic-related interest What makes this non-jews ?
Anonymous
Troy Day I suggest you sit down and read the book of Revelation especially that part about those coming out of the Great Tribulation who are from every tongue tribe and nation.
Anonymous
Link Hudson just read this today and you cannot provide a shred of evidence they are actually non-jews; no none Jewish believers mentioned as Duane L Burgess already showed to Neil Steven Lawrence and myself
Anonymous
Troy Day Revelation 7
9 After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, đfrom every nation, from đall tribes and đpeoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, âSalvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!â 11 And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying, âAmen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might be to our God forever and ever! Amen.â
13 Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, âWho are these, clothed in white robes, and from where have they come?â 14 I said to him, âSir, you know.â And he said to me, đâThese are the ones coming out of the great tribulation.đ They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
(ESV)
Anonymous
Link Hudson are you saying the JEWS will be saved ANY other way except coming from Trib and washed by blood? Duane L Burgess Neil Steven Lawrence perhaps Billy Monroe Poff can share some on such dual theology
Anonymous
Mike Cook whats your take on this my brother with Nelson Banuchi
Anonymous
Thank you for the invite brother in Christ. My take on this matter: Jesus says in John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me you might have peace. In the world you shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world. And I say brothers, Are the children suffering it now? Even suffering by the system of antichrist? Are not them that will be killed this day for their faith in Jesus suffering tribulation? Has these things spread across the the land and grow; the world is darker. So much suffering of men, women, and children, bears witness of it. And more woe to come. As for the Lord’s coming; I believe this persecution will be cut short for the elects sake. Cut short by the brightness of His coming. That is my thoughts of it.
Anonymous
there is a LOT Of suffering too – we have to agree persecution will be cut short for the elects sake
Anonymous
Troy Day Amen
Anonymous
Mike Cook The Gospels pick up where the OT leaves off. They are primarily spoken “only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
The Church is unknown in the OT and practically unknown in the Gospels. “Ekklesia” appears only twice in the Gospels. Even after the resurrection the disciples didn’t know about the Church, asking if the kingdom would “now” be restored to Israel.
The Church is a mystery (Eph. 3) being revealed beginning at Pentecost.
The Church has faced persecution and martyrdom for two thousand years. But the coming 7 year tribulation, such as the world has never seen, is NOT for the Church. It is Israel’s time of Jacob’s trouble, being purged and cleansed (two thirds will perish) and God pouring out judgment on the world.
The Church will be gone.
Anonymous
Duane L Burgess Rev 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
Anonymous
In order to get prophecy and Scripture right we must embrace God’s unique distinctions for ethnic national Israel and for the Church.
Anonymous
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Anonymous
Junior Beasley YES on 1st Thess.4:13-18 messes them up. You would not see Link Hudson or Brett Dobbs interpreting 1st Thess.4 ALONE – they always want to connected with 2thes or 1Cor like they are some sort of parallel passages. I ‘ve pointed to the Greek being exceptionally clear here John Mushenhouse Neil Steven Lawrence but who cares about Greek when they know but little startup theology
Anonymous
and Philip Williams just stays away from the whole eschatological discourse John Mushenhouse clocked him well when one time he played the catholic popish mantra that early Pentecostals were post-Trib or even post-mil đ
Anonymous
Troy Day yes, post-mil! Looking for the restoration of the church as it existed at Pentecost. How we got our name.
Anonymous
Troy Day there gave been times you havevposted and I have not folliwed. You got real chatty when I took a new job. What Geerk evidence have you ever presented for pretrib from II Thessalonian? 2. Do you have an explanation why no native Greek speakers who held to Historic premillennialism or a millennialism could see this feature of the Greek language between the time of Paul the Apostle and pseudo-Ephraim?
But who needs to write a coherent case to support anything when he can just claimed he has advanced theology degrees?
Anonymous
Kyle Williams do you care to respond to the Internal Evidence from within the document itself. In addition to the external evidence from the church fathers, the book of Revelation has many internal indications that support the late date.[73]
ARGUMENT #1: The late date explains why John, Paul, and Timothy never mention one another together in Ephesus.
If the early date is true, then John would have been leading in Ephesus at the same time as Paul and Timothy. Why would Paul leave Timothy in charge of the Ephesian church if the apostle John was there? Moreover, at the end of 2 Timothy, Paul mentions 17 coworkers by name, but he never mentions John. We are not merely making an argument from silence. This is a conspicuous silence. Why wouldnât Paul mention such a spiritual titan like John? Likewise, why wouldnât Jesus mention Paul or Timothy when writing to the church of Ephesus? (Rev. 2:1-7) Witherington writes, âThe lack of apostolic presence and, by contrast, the presence of powerful prophets (both John and those he calls false prophets) seem to reflect a time after the apostles had died off late in the first century A.D. (cf. the Didache).â[74]
ARGUMENT #2: The late date explains why Paul and Jesus give conflicting reports about false teachers in Ephesus.
Paulâs letters to Ephesus and Jesusâ letter to Ephesus give conflicting reports regarding false teachers. On the one hand, Paul writes about men who âteach strange doctrinesâ (1 Tim. 1:3) and the âdoctrines of demonsâ (1 Tim. 4:1). Paul even mentions several false teachers by name: Hymenaeus, Alexander, and Philetus (1 Tim. 1:20; 2 Tim. 2:17). Yet, Jesusâ letter to Ephesus tells a different story. Instead of being riddled with false teachers, Jesus says, âYou cannot tolerate evil men, and you put to the test those who call themselves apostles, and they are not, and you found them to be false⌠You hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hateâ (Rev. 2:2, 6). This is quite unlike the church of Pergamum who âhave some who⌠hold the teaching of the Nicolaitansâ (Rev. 2:15).
ARGUMENT #3: The late date explains how the church in Smyrna had time to grow before receiving a letter from Jesus.
Polycarp wrote a letter to the Philippians in AD 110. In it, he states that the Smyrnaeans werenât believers when Paul wrote his letter to the Philippians in AD 60-61.
[You Philippians] are praised in the beginning of his Epistle. For concerning you he boasts in all the Churches who then alone had known the Lord, for we had not yet known him.[75]
Polycarp was the bishop of Smyrna. So, his use of the plural âweâ refers to âthe church at Smyrna,â which would âindicate that that church was not in existence at the time in question.â[76] Put simply, Polycarp is claiming that âwhen Paul wrote Philippians no Smyrneans had yet been evangelized.â[77]
Craig Blomberg[78] and Gordon Fee[79] date Philippians to AD 61. Therefore, Polycarp maintains that the church in Smyrna didnât exist before this time. This, of course, carried difficulties for the early date advocate. It requires a church entering Smyrna and springing up all within a 4-5 year span. Acts 19:10 says that âAll who lived in Asia heard the word of the Lord,â but this is hyperbolic language. This doesnât mean that a church specifically existed in the city of Smyrna. Moreover, Paul never mentions a church existing in Smyrna in any of his letters.
ARGUMENT #4: The late date explains how the church in Laodicea had time to plummet spiritually by AD 65.
D.A. Carson, Douglas Moo,[80] and P.T. OâBrien[81] date Colossians to AD 60-61. Paul mentions a thriving church in Laodicea at this time (Col. 2:2; 4:13, 16). However, if Revelation was written in AD 65, then this church must have plummeted spiritually in just a few years. In fact, they had become so bad, that Christ threatened to vomit them out of his mouth! (Rev. 3:16) Of course, spiritual decline can occur quickly (Gal. 1:6), but which is more likely? A quick decline or a slower decline?
ARGUMENT #5: The late date explains Jesusâ words to the church in Laodicea in light of the great earthquake of AD 60.
The entire region around Laodicea suffered a massive earthquake in AD 60. In fact, the region suffered until at least AD 80,[82] and the âarchaeological evidence at Laodicea points to a thirty-year rebuilding process.â[83]
And yet, Jesus told the Laodiceans that they are âwealthyâ and âhave need of nothingâ (Rev. 3:16). If the early date is true, it would be quite cruel to tell a destroyed city that they are âwealthyâ and âhave need of nothing.â However, if the late date is true, this would make perfect sense. Tacitus mentions that the Laodiceans refused all aid from the Roman Empire after the earthquake.[84] They rebuilt their city all on their own, because they were âwealthyâ and had âneed of nothing.â Hemer writes, âThere is good reason for seeing Rev. 3.17 against the background of the boasted afluence [sic] of Laodicea, notoriously exemplified in her refusal of Roman aid and her carrying through a great programme of reconstruction in a spirit of proud independence and ostentatious individual benefaction.â[85]