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What is the theological significance of the Flat Earth theory?
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Varnel Watson
That;s a good one Ricky Grimsley What;s your take? http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/flat-earth-in-the-city-of-zion/
Robert Borders
One could go round and round on this topic not to mention problems with circular reasoning!
Varnel Watson
Or one can go down flat on his face from arguing đ
Varnel Watson
Gene-Len Morris we;ve discussed it before but never really reached a theological significance. Maybe you can shed some light for us?
Gene-Len Morris
I have always felt that anything worth giving answer to is generally either directly, or at least indirectly covered in some what in God’s word. In response to someone’s questioning about this last week, I decided to begin a study on it. Although I am nowhere through with this study (currently looking for some Biblical Hebrew/Etymology resources), I did run into a couple VERY interesting verses that indirectly address this question. I’ll list them here, and then follow my logic…
Hebrews 1:2
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Hebrews 11:3
Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
In the above verses, Paul makes reference to the forming of, not simply the Earth itself, but “the worlds”…plural. Flat Earther’s subscribe to a number of bewildering beliefs, all of which are debunkable by simple mathematics and science proofs that have been established literally for thousands of years. And although they monolithically agree that the Earth itself is supposedly flat, or disk shaped, they all appear to agree that all other bodies in the universe, i.e., planets, moons, stars, are spherical in shape. And this is where the Word of God, especially the verses I’ve presented, comes in.
Paul states in Heb 1:2 that the worlds (plural) were made by Jesus. In Hebrews 11:3, he states that the worlds (again plural) were framed by the word of God (again, Jesus – John 1:1-14). Even Flat Earthers will agree that ALL of the OTHER observable planets –without exception — of our universe are spherical objects.
The terms used for Earth and World throughout the Bible are pretty much interchangeable. When the term “world” is used we generally understand that the writer is pretty much always referring to Earth itself (or some subset of it). In any case, Paul has indicated, without making any distinctions, that Jesus created ALL of these worlds/planets. The fact that Paul has effectively lumped the creation of the Earth (THIS world, one of many) with all other of the worlds in the entire universe, without making reference to any distinguishing physical pattern change, by inference suggests that God did not make any specific deviation from His pattern (spherical) of creating THIS world any different from any OTHER world that He created. Another way to say this is: If ALL other observable planets were made according to a spherical design, and Paul made no mention that God deviated from this pattern (and don’t you know that this would have been quite important to make note of), then it can be assumed that God DID NOT deviate from this pattern and created THIS world in the same manner as He did with ALL OTHER worlds He created. And yet ANOTHER way to view this would be from the viewpoint of Malachi 3:6: “For I am the Lord, I change not…” If God does not change his modis operandi in how he accomplishes something, and 9,999,999,999 times (ad infinitum) he has created ALL other worlds using a spherical blueprint, then it’s a pretty good bet that He would stick with what He has always done.
Anya Kay
Not that I am a flat earth-er, but the verses and points you listed out, definitely does not proof your point. For example, you simply based your conclusion on the word âworldsâ that Paul states in Hebrew. The word âWORLDSâ does not necessarily mean EARTH. If we are strictly relying on whatâs written on Bible, then planets and stars are not considered âworldsâ regardless what translation we use. God didnât create planets and stars to be habitual or a world for any being. In conclusion, Genesis 1:1 – in the beginning God Created HEAVENS and EARTH (not earths).
P.s. you are correct, mathematics and science have been around for thousands of years but letâs not forget, the round/glob earth idea is only few hundred years; which was introduced to the society by a person who was not a huge fan of Christianity or religion.
As I mentioned, I am not a believer of Flat Earth , i just like observing facts and theories with an open mind. ?
Thank You
Gene-Len Morris
Sorry guys, I accidentally hit ENTER while I was finishing up the previous post and was kicked out of the post. I had to hop back in and edit it, so if you began reading it before this later post, you may want to reload it so that you will see it in it’s entirety.
Gene-Len Morris
Troy Day There you go bud (above). Hope you like this answer. It is what I have found thus far. I do have other scripture, but I am doing further study on that and do not want to comment on it before I am finished with it.
Varnel Watson
so whats the bottom line on this issue?
Gene-Len Morris
Troy Day I actually stated the bottom line in 3 ways so that it would be fairly clear. By your answer, I am assuming that since my answer was lengthy, you have not read through it. I get it (it looks like you are keeping several threads going), but please read through it. Otherwise, my answer will most likely be almost as lengthy anyway, lol.
Varnel Watson
One could go round and round on this topic into circular reasoning
Jevan Little
No pun intended?
Gene-Len Morris
Yeah, but if you READ the article, I think I have adequately addressed your question.
Varnel Watson
well one can go down flat on his face from arguing
Jevan Little
Haha
Gene-Len Morris
Since you have not actually pointed to anything I have stated directly in my response, I assume you have not actually read anything in the post at all. Your replies actually have taken up at least an amount of time equal to just simply reading the post.
I am not wanting to sound disrespectful, but I did take the time to address the issue and try to provide a thoughtful and what I thought was an insightful answer.
Varnel Watson
I read until the making of the world(s) and since you didnt mention the Greek word actually means the fall of the world(s) I decided not to address it
Gene-Len Morris
?? fall of the worlds??
Varnel Watson
yap check it out in the Greek when you get a chance
Gene-Len Morris
which verse and which word are you referring to?
Varnel Watson
oh dear – this is first you hear of it and you talk flat earth?
Gene-Len Morris
Please do not be condescending. It’s really distasteful.
Varnel Watson
I am just asking a question – have you never heard of that?
Gene-Len Morris
Keep to one thing at a time. I am referring to your statement regarding “since you didnt mention the Greek word actually means the fall of the world(s)”. What, if anything, does this actually have to do with the direct verses referred to in my response??
Varnel Watson
a lot but I am not about to school you on it
Anya Kay
Gene-Len Morris
Not that I am a flat earth-er, but the verses and points you listed out, definitely does not proof your point. For example, you simply based your conclusion on the word âworldsâ that Paul states in Hebrew. The word âWORLDSâ does not necessarily mean EARTH. If we are strictly relying on whatâs written on Bible, then planets and stars are not considered âworldsâ regardless what translation we use. God didnât create planets and stars to be habitual or a world for any being. In conclusion, Genesis 1:1 – in the beginning God Created HEAVENS and EARTH (not earths).
P.s. you are correct, mathematics and science have been around for thousands of years but letâs not forget, the round/glob earth idea is only few hundred years; which was introduced to the society by a person who was not a huge fan of Christianity or religion.
As I mentioned, I am not a believer of Flat Earth , i just like observing facts and theories with an open mind. ?
Thank You
Varnel Watson
definitely does not proof the point as right on this one
Jared Cheshire
The only thing flat earthers fear, is sphere itself.
Varnel Watson
sphere figure or sphere surface?
Anya Kay
Jared Cheshire how about Sphere earthers? What are they afraid of?
Jared Cheshire
Defiantly not spheres. LOL
Varnel Watson
afraid to fall off the edge?
Anya Kay
Jared Cheshire but what ARE we afraid of?
Anya Kay
Troy Day LoL. BUT.. the edges are well protected and walled.
Jared Cheshire
The only thing I fear is my kids turning from God. If I do my job as a parent, I can mitigate that, but the choice is ultimately theirs.
Anya Kay
Jared Cheshire I would agree with you about that being a good thing to fear. BUT now I have another question.
What if, you donât really know if the earth is actually flat or sphere? What if it is actually flat because there are few verses in the Bible that made A group of people actually believe that the earth is flat.
Also, Bible says
âThrough faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appearâ. So, chances are we can be wrong about lots of things that we think we know. And What if your children choose to believe what you thought them, and turns out we were the ones that were to be made fun of not the flat earthers…. ? just some âwhat ifâs:)
Jared Cheshire
That is because those that translated the Bible into English had little understanding of geography. Reading the original from the hebraic perspective, you do not get any nudges that they thought it was flat. They used poetry to describe their world and poetry is the most difficult style of writing to accurately translate. Also I do know. I have seen it.
Varnel Watson
of course you get flat from Hebrew – KJV was 1611 Columbus sailed the Ocean blue in…
Jared Cheshire
Troy Day seafaring people knew that the world was round long long long long before Columbus
Jared Cheshire
Also in poetic parallelism you cannot take every description as literal
Anya Kay
Possible. But I thought it was the original texts that had more convincing texts that earth was flat. No?
Varnel Watson
Yes the Hebrew is very clear about the flatness
and yes people knew world is round long before English translations So the statement Jared Cheshire made was wrong both times. People who translated KJV and prior enlglish Bibles were encyclopedists – they were very aware of geography
Jared Cheshire
Being aware of geography and knowing geography are two different things
Jared Cheshire
Theory vs experience
Varnel Watson
KJV translators were special kind of court scholars – the best of the best Tyndale had traveled extensively Erasmus was the leading encyclopedist scholar in Europe recognized by popes, kings and even Luther. They did not get there by not knowing geography đ
Jared Cheshire
Yes, I am aware that 1611 is after 1492, I am aware that those Scholars understood that the world was round, but from their knowledge people before 1492 thought the world was flat therefore in their translations they were sort of biased. If you read the poetic parallelisms you will realize that Solomon’s wife’s breast really were not made of grapes you will realize the sky was not really a blanket etc etc etc. The point I was trying to make and I may not have been doing it very well since I’ve been up for over 24 hours is that they were biased in their translations based upon their experience and knowledge that Columbus discovered the roundness of Earth. Anyone who’s ever been on a ship out in the open ocean will tell you that they can see that the world was round. The Hebrew people were a seafaring people, they knew the world was round but they described it in Poetic form
Jared Cheshire
I apologize for any mistakes as I am using voice to text while I drive and I’m not proof reading very well
Varnel Watson
Earth Measured with a Line, not a curve in Job 38:4-5 No poetic parallelisms there
Jared Cheshire
A straight line around a sphere is still curved
Varnel Watson
Paths are Straight, not curved in 1 Samuel 6:12, Psalm 5:8, Psalm 27:11, Isaiah 40:3, Jeremiah 31:9, Matthew 3:3, Mark 1:3, Luke 3:4, John 1:23, Acts 16:11, Acts 21:1, Hebrews 12:13
Jared Cheshire
Also you must take into account euphemisms of the culture of the time. Four corners of the Earth does not mean that they thought the world was a board, it was simply a euphemism
Varnel Watson
Waters are Straight, not curved:in Job 37:10
Earth has Ends in Deuteronomy 28:49, Deuteronomy 28:64, Deuteronomy 33:17, 1 Samuel 2:10, Job 37:3, Job 38:13, Psalm 46:9, Psalm 48:10, Psalm 59:13, Psalm 61:2, Psalm 65:5, Psalm 67:7, Psalm 72:8, Psalm 98:3, Psalm 135:7, Proverbs 8:29, Proverbs 17:24, Proverbs 30:4, Isaiah 5:26, Isaiah 26:15, Isaiah 40:28, Isaiah 41:5, Isaiah 41:9, Isaiah 42:10, Isaiah 43:6, Isaiah 45:22, Isaiah 48:20, Isaiah 49:6, Isaiah 52:10, Jeremiah 10:13, Jeremiah 16:19, Jeremiah 25:31, Jeremiah 25:33, Jeremiah 51:16, Daniel 4:22, Micah 5:4, Zechariah 9:10, Matthew 12:42, Luke 11:31, Acts 13:47
Earth has 4 Corners and 4 Quarters in Jeremiah 9:26, Jeremiah 25:23, Isaiah 11:12, Ezekiel 7:2, Ecclesiastes 1:6, Revelation 7:1, Revelation⏠â20:8
Jared Cheshire
I refer you back to my last comment. Water is never straight because it fills its container if you look at a droplet it is a sphere. Also the word straight does not always mean not crooked or not curved, just as straight today has a different meaning in certain circumstances
Varnel Watson
If you need help understanding how 4 corners exist on a circle https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESv4oW9mU0k&feature=youtu.be
Jared Cheshire
No I understand that, that is not at all the point I was making is that few people consider euphemism and poetry. The King James version is a literal translation. A literal translation from one language to another can never be completely accurate as to intent unless you understand euphemism and poetry. You must use sound hermeneutics. Interpretations are always more accurate than translations because an interpretation takes into account intent where translation is only trying to translate word for word
Anya Kay
Now my mind keeps going toward The Book of Enoch. I mean His earth is sureee FLAT. I just cannot convince myself to just ignore that part of his book, which makes me feel guilty.
What do you guys think about The Book Of Enoch.
Varnel Watson
Earth is a Disk/Circle, not a ball? Isaiah 40:22, Proverbs 8:27, Job 38:13-14
Anya Kay
That HE commend it and earth was stood firm. That The world is firmly established, it cannot be moved.
Varnel Watson
Ricky Grimsley deep state 9 NASA ADMITS WE NEVER WENT TO THE MOON https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpPMoIv1lxI
Ricky Grimsley
Whatever
Varnel Watson
deep space 9 program admitted it – see video
Anya Kay
Ricky Grimsley do you think thatâs fake?
Ricky Grimsley
Yes. We went to the moon
Anya Kay
Ricky Grimsley I think we did too. But there are so many good points and facts that are so strong, making me feel little stupid for believing that the moon landing was real. But at the same time I know that I, just like majority of human beings, love to stick to my old believes, because thatâs makes me feel so comfortable and secure. Because I know if I choose to believe that Moon Lansing was fake, or the earth is Flat…. than the chaos will reign my whole existence. Then I will start doubting everything I know, and start thinking for myself, and try getting answers by myself, and just be different. That can be very exhausting.
Ricky Grimsley
The earth is not flat and we went to the moon.
Anya Kay
Jared Cheshire basically that means that chances are that everything written in bible can mean something else that we actually think it means. Can that mean that we actually have nooooo idea what the Word Of God says? Since we donât really know which part can mean literally what it says and which part no?
Jared Cheshire
Anya Kay, absolutely not. You just must use wisdom, allow the Spirit to lead, and do as Paul told Timothy… STUDY!
Anya Kay
Jared Cheshire but thatâs what I am trying to do. Study, and consider all the other options as well, and study those that are unknown and different for me. Thatâs what makes it even harder for me. Because when I started studying, things started to seem rather different than what I know.
Jared Cheshire
Anya Kay. Boom. When you start studying the Word honestly, the Spirit will lead you to correct things you have been taught incorrectly, or misunderstood. Good job!
Jared Cheshire
Changing paradigms when confronted with truth is sometimes harder than most want to deal with.
Anya Kay
See but the thing is that in this case, the different for me was the flat earth and the fake moon landing…… my reality was (I would say still kind of IS) sphere earth, real moon landing…. the flat earth was that âdifferent from what I knowâ when I started honestly studying the Word; when I started reading and studying the Word from the beginning from different angles and translation and interpretations.
Jared Cheshire
The one thing that throws the flat earth myth is physics. I have actually seen the curve of the earth. It isn’t flat at all. From the vantage points I have been, you would be able to tell thw difference.
Jevan Little
Ancient authors were astronomers, geologists or any other kind of scientists
Varnel Watson
were they not God inspired to write the Bible?
Jevan Little
Troy Day inspiration is not dictation
Ricky Grimsley
Flat earth theory makes Christians look dumb just like young earthers only worse.
Varnel Watson
flat earth reminds me of all false theories that try to replace the Biblical teaching of pre-Trib rapture
Ricky Grimsley
Please pre-trib is easily disproved. You have to be blind or uniformed to believe it.
Varnel Watson
Please pre-trib is easily disproved by all left behind