Practical application of Pentecostal theology in politics, economy and social issues
What hinders our AoG of having REVIVAL TODAY?
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Much of the world is preparing to celebrate. The question is, whatâs being celebrated? Children anticipate Santa Claus leaving gifts under a tree, while adults decorate homes with lights, tinsel, and ornaments. We give gifts to people we care about, attend office parties, send greeting cards, and generally make a big deal out ofâŚwhat? Why [âŚ]
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Herrnhut Morton
Springfield.
Joey Felts
Sin
Cameron King
Sin, prayerlessness, lack of hunger, being closed to the supernatural, jealousy, loving the praise of men, etc.
Michael Green
Commitment
Street Preacherz
Can you please define revival. Honest question?
Randy Buchanan
Individuals
Street Preacherz
Not to be simplistic but, “a revival or ‘return’ in the church effects the greater community. It’s moral compass and temperature.”
Scott Phillips
Carnality, Materialism, Sensuality, Worldliness, condoning the prosperity Gospel, promoting talent and showmen over sincerity and holiness.
The carnal mind can not know the mind of God and for many in pentecostalism may speak in tongues, but their mind is wholly given to the world.
Varnel Watson
It was known for many great revivals just recently Does this mean the death of the denomination is near?
Steve Maxwell
We’re doing pretty well at adding souls. The A/G has added 42% more souls to our numbers since 1992. We are one if two denominations actually growing. The nice part is that we are adding many folks from minority races. I think this is ultimately what God requires of us….The Great Commission.
Varnel Watson
Steve Maxwell Problems is this is growth outside of the U.S. Far far away, while many churches close doors in America every day. BTW what is a minority race? – sounds like very exclusive terminology https://ag.org/About/Statistics
Steve Maxwell
I think you need to read your data a little closer Troy. The documents present the USA alone in several graphs. The age numbers world wide are 68.5 million. This document reveals robust growth in America alone.
Steve Maxwell
Minority race is in reference to how many Hispanics are being brought to the Lord through the A/G.
Varnel Watson
Steve Maxwell I actually have read the data on many occasions. As you can clearly see most states are on the negative. Would you point here the states which in your opinion are adding members The stats clearly show that most states are losing members and are on the negative https://ag.org/About/Statistics
Steve Maxwell
Troy Day, the total number of Americans attending AG churches has more than doubled since 1975. God counts souls, not electoral votes.
Varnel Watson
Steve Maxwell Pls look at the stats I’ve posted – first link on the AG website 2006-2016 stats show major attendance decline in over 40 states. Forget the 70s đ the independent churches are not here to help anymore. Neither is the 80s crusades and 90s tv evangelists. AG membership is in rapid decline among Americans. The 2 FLORIDA revivals were a nice wave to ride for a while BUT they both went south too – deep south too. So what in your opinion would guarantee further growth of AG today 2017-2018?
Street Preacherz
Is it odd to go from talking about what hinders revival to nickels numbers and noses
Varnel Watson
It is also strange to say that people or sin hinders God from bringing revival. It people or sin stopped God none of us would have even been saved
Varnel Watson
another politicized demonic attack? William DeArteaga
William DeArteaga
Can’t get to original article
Varnel Watson
why not? – just click on the picture http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/what-hinders-our-aog-of-having-revival-today/
Varnel Watson
Herrnhut Morton Revival in the last few decades were characterized by leaders who owned a stage or a platform, preaching 52 times a year (or more with midweek). Team effort is eclipsing solo effort. A decade ago, you could name influential worship leaders. http://churchinfluence.com/7-church-trends-in-2018/
Varnel Watson
posting some new stats since Dan Irving posted this. We had a discussion which appears to have greatly affected some religious circles who are wanting to reclaim the avid vision of church growth.
Our simple church stats show were confronted by Steve Maxwell wrong and by Terry Wiles plain heretical (in search for the exact word) But they were neither wrong nor heretical Apparently official write ups by our AG was published shortly in various publications showing growth.
Problem with those stats is that they compare 1989 post-Jimmy Swaggart stats with mid-Obama 2013 Ag church in post modernity . Apples to oranges? Yes of course.
Then, one of the publications went into to claim that the Assemblies are growing at rate 0.3% faster than the population of the United States #hello We can live with that but then comes the shocker:
According to the article, churches claim an amazing 81% increase in conversion
(What define conversion?)
59% more people are following the Lord in water baptism
42% increase in church membership in local expressions of the Assemblies of God.
Where? In these United States of America?
No of course. That would make the AG bigger than the Catholic church
So while we appreciate AG authors visiting our page and using it for inspiration of their writings, lets get it right once again
YES AG is growing but outside of the US. Most states show rapid decline in the past 2-3-5 years all across the US https://religionnews.com/…/southern-baptists-decline…/
Varnel Watson
posting some new stats since Dan Irving posted this. We had a discussion which appears to have greatly affected some religious circles who are wanting to reclaim the avid vision of church growth.
Our simple church stats show were confronted by Steve Maxwell wrong and by Terry Wiles plain heretical (in search for the exact word) But they were neither wrong nor heretical Apparently official write ups by our AG was published shortly in various publications showing growth.
Problem with those stats is that they compare 1989 post-Jimmy Swaggart stats with mid-Obama 2013 Ag church in post modernity . Apples to oranges? Yes of course.
Then, one of the publications went into to claim that the Assemblies are growing at rate 0.3% faster than the population of the United States #hello We can live with that but then comes the shocker:
According to the article, churches claim an amazing 81% increase in conversion
(What define conversion?)
59% more people are following the Lord in water baptism
42% increase in church membership in local expressions of the Assemblies of God.
Where? In these United States of America?
No of course. That would make the AG bigger than the Catholic church
So while we appreciate AG authors visiting our page and using it for inspiration of their writings, lets get it right once again
YES AG is growing but outside of the US. Most states show rapid decline in the past 2-3-5 years all across the US https://religionnews.com/…/southern-baptists-decline…/
Daniel J Hesse
Is it fair to expect a 102 yr old woman to have quadruplets?
Daniel J Hesse
Is it fair to expect a 102 yr old woman to have quadruplets?
Daniel J Hesse
The AG as we knew it 30-40 yes ago in the US has far different elements today? I commend our leadership for keeping our fellowship viable and maintaining without a major schism in these challenging days.
Daniel J Hesse
The AG as we knew it 30-40 yes ago in the US has far different elements today? I commend our leadership for keeping our fellowship viable and maintaining without a major schism in these challenging days.
Varnel Watson
Steve Maxwell you are again and again failing to recognize that the growth of AG globally shows actually negative numbers for the AG Other denominations have taken this turn too since 9/11 – circling the wagons in attempt to survive
As you mentioned my state to state stats on AG we should also remember, the states where growth was shown were mainly the so called mission states – where we dont have many congregations. The larger states and especially the one where AG has historic growth are declaning
I am not sure if you are in full time ministry to understand that fully, but let me try to explain from a purely ministerial organizational point of view
We have 30 churches in a mission state and we add 3 more – oh wow we are growing 10% by the hour
while at the same time in upper NY where we have had 500 churches like ever since in the past 100 years we close 45 churches Oh wow we lost 9% but we gained 10% so we must be growing 1% – apples to oranges – not to mention GROWTH is not really defined with the stats and when it applies to the global numbers gets even worse
Varnel Watson
Steve Maxwell you are again and again failing to recognize that the growth of AG globally shows actually negative numbers for the AG Other denominations have taken this turn too since 9/11 – circling the wagons in attempt to survive
As you mentioned my state to state stats on AG we should also remember, the states where growth was shown were mainly the so called mission states – where we dont have many congregations. The larger states and especially the one where AG has historic growth are declaning
I am not sure if you are in full time ministry to understand that fully, but let me try to explain from a purely ministerial organizational point of view
We have 30 churches in a mission state and we add 3 more – oh wow we are growing 10% by the hour
while at the same time in upper NY where we have had 500 churches like ever since in the past 100 years we close 45 churches Oh wow we lost 9% but we gained 10% so we must be growing 1% – apples to oranges – not to mention GROWTH is not really defined with the stats and when it applies to the global numbers gets even worse
Steve Maxwell
It’s amazing how you think you’re smarter than the people who actually take the polls, do the studies and come to the conclusion that the Assemblies of God bnb is not only growing in America, but world wide.
Steve Maxwell
It’s amazing how you think you’re smarter than the people who actually take the polls, do the studies and come to the conclusion that the Assemblies of God bnb is not only growing in America, but world wide.
Varnel Watson
The study does NOT say growth in America. Please check it out before you make false statements again
Varnel Watson
The study does NOT say growth in America. Please check it out before you make false statements again
Steve Maxwell
Here you go Troy Day, please read carefully, before you put your spin on it. https://ag.org/About/Statistics
Steve Maxwell
Here you go Troy Day, please read carefully, before you put your spin on it. https://ag.org/About/Statistics
Varnel Watson
Already had Already shown you the decline What else? BTW you are showing 2016 and not 2018 even more decline Look here again
Gulf Latin America – 100% decline loss
You still wanna talk serious stats? Whole regions leaving
Varnel Watson
Already had and shown you the decline What else? BTW you are showing 2016 and not 2018 even more decline Look here again
Gulf Latin America – 100% decline loss
You still wanna talk serious stats? Whole regions leaving
Varnel Watson
Kenneth L. Harrell Letâs get real about something, shall we? There has been a lot of people praying the âsinnerâs prayerâ but never really getting converted. If we was really leading them in true conversion and training them to walk out their salvation; we would not see the huge gaps in some of these numbers.
I am not saying that everyone that prays with a pastor is a false convert. However, I am going to say that many are and who knows how many duplicate converts are in these numbers from people who just think they need to get âsavedâ every service.
Varnel Watson
Kenneth L. Harrell Letâs get real about something, shall we? There has been a lot of people praying the âsinnerâs prayerâ but never really getting converted. If we was really leading them in true conversion and training them to walk out their salvation; we would not see the huge gaps in some of these numbers.
I am not saying that everyone that prays with a pastor is a false convert. However, I am going to say that many are and who knows how many duplicate converts are in these numbers from people who just think they need to get âsavedâ every service.
Joey Felts
Sin/ leaven
Joey Felts
Sin/ leaven
Brian Roden
As for the Gulf Latin American District, the district itself proposed a division into 4 smaller geographical districts, due to the rapid growth in number of churches and adherents since Janie Wead’s Hispanic Project 2000. With more churches spread across the 4 states that made up GLAD (Texas, Oklahoma, Arkansas, and Louisiana), it was getting harder for district leadership in San Antonio to serve so many churches over such a large area, so they proposed a division into smaller, more travel-manageable districts.
Many of these Hispanic churches are starting to have an English service in addition to their traditional Spanish services, as the new generation is growing up English-dominant. Often, these young-people marry a non-Spanish speaker, and the churches are adapting to add English so as not to lose blended-ethnicity families.
I met my wife in one of those Hispanic Project 2000 churches, planted in 1997 in Little Rock, AR. Arkansas used to be one section of GLAD. Now it comprises 3 sections of the South Central Hispanic District.
So a whole region didn’t leave. It became 4 new districts, which are still growing.
Theodore Wright
Seek God and His love! There is a little thing also called REPENTANCE! http://maverickchristians.com/unconditional
Theodore Wright
Seek God and His love! There is a little thing also called REPENTANCE! http://maverickchristians.com/unconditional
Varnel Watson
Theodore Wright are you saying our AG is not repented?
Theodore Wright
Hi Troy, I am not making a comment on that specifically but we all need to keep revival going in every church.
Theodore Wright
Even in the beginning for A/G at Azusa Street there was the issue of the United Pentecostal/Apostolic cult. We all are continually being tested.
Varnel Watson
Theodore Wright are you saying our AG is not repented?
Theodore Wright
Hi Troy, I am not making a comment on that specifically but we all need to keep revival going in every church.
Theodore Wright
Even in the beginning for A/G at Azusa Street there was the issue of the United Pentecostal/Apostolic cult. We all are continually being tested.
Daniel J Hesse
Without ethnic growth very few churches grow. Our rural churches continue to lose ground. Much of the culture has changed and the role of the church shadowed by it.
Daniel J Hesse
Without ethnic growth very few churches grow. Our rural churches continue to lose ground. Much of the culture has changed and the role of the church shadowed by it.
Varnel Watson
Daniel J Hesse AG has defined ethnic growth within Pentecostalism. Allowing women and young minsters under 40 on our council was great. What we argue here is the fact that all this is evident in churches out side the US. From 2016 till 2018 US growth has declined rapidly. The only thing left to non-ministers like Steve Maxwell is to show old stats or call names, which only shows the declining numbers in the US are true That’s all
Daniel J Hesse
Solutions?
Varnel Watson
Daniel J Hesse AG has defined ethnic growth within Pentecostalism. Allowing women and young minsters under 40 on our council was great. What we argue here is the fact that all this is evident in churches out side the US. From 2016 till 2018 US growth has declined rapidly. The only thing left to non-ministers like Steve Maxwell is to show old stats or call names, which only shows the declining numbers in the US are true That’s all
Daniel J Hesse
Solutions?
Daniel J Hesse
I wonder what are the causes?
Daniel J Hesse
I wonder what are the causes?
Varnel Watson
Well Daniel J Hesse FIRST step would be to recognize the problem and not deny it like Steve Maxwell with cheap arguments and personal attacks. There is a problem in many denominations since 2016 One major thing has been political realignments. Another one, the closing of America and the American way by circling the wagons. We saw this around 9/11. Back then people knew the problem but felt unsecured to address it. Stats and reports were ignored until the major Pentecostal crises of 2005. Afterwords we had the economic recession (non-depression) Now everything seems to be setting for another recycle around 2020-21 Kingdom now theology takes its tall Dan Irving
Varnel Watson
Well Daniel J Hesse FIRST step would be to recognize the problem and not deny it like Steve Maxwell with cheap arguments and personal attacks. There is a problem in many denominations since 2016 One major thing has been political realignments. Another one, the closing of America and the American way by circling the wagons. We saw this around 9/11. Back then people knew the problem but felt unsecured to address it. Stats and reports were ignored until the major Pentecostal crises of 2005. Afterwords we had the economic recession (non-depression) Now everything seems to be setting for another recycle around 2020-21 Kingdom now theology takes its tall Dan Irving
Daniel J Hesse
2005?
Daniel J Hesse
2005?
Varnel Watson
AG published 4 foundational and critical papers:
2000 EndTime revival … resolution 16
2001 apostles and prophets
2003 – discipleship and submission
2004 statement of fundamental truths – the last of the reclaiming documents to re establish authority and fix the NAR/Bentley issue
From 2005 onward the crises deepened and in the next decade created the perfect storm first reckoned with the current membership decline and if not fixed on time repeat the cycle by 2020-22
REF: Endtime Revival-Spirit-Led And Spirit-Controlled: A Response Paper To Resolution 16. Springfield (Missouri). The General Council of the Assemblies of God https://books.google.com/books?id=0ZFV50fbksoC&pg=PA315&lpg=PA315&dq=assemblies+of+god+resolution+16&source=bl&ots=UYroXV9wZX&sig=iVSpOoCwjNeWU4hyIMzjfmXmx7U&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjl9ceN77DbAhUGRK0KHebMAfMQ6AEIggEwDQ#v=onepage&q=assemblies%20of%20god%20resolution%2016&f=false
Varnel Watson
AG published 4 foundational and critical papers:
2000 EndTime revival … resolution 16
2001 apostles and prophets
2003 – discipleship and submission
2004 statement of fundamental truths – the last of the reclaiming documents to re establish authority and fix the NAR/Bentley issue
From 2005 onward the crises deepened and in the next decade created the perfect storm first reckoned with the current membership decline and if not fixed on time repeat the cycle by 2020-22
REF: Endtime Revival-Spirit-Led And Spirit-Controlled: A Response Paper To Resolution 16. Springfield (Missouri). The General Council of the Assemblies of God https://books.google.com/books?id=0ZFV50fbksoC&pg=PA315&lpg=PA315&dq=assemblies+of+god+resolution+16&source=bl&ots=UYroXV9wZX&sig=iVSpOoCwjNeWU4hyIMzjfmXmx7U&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjl9ceN77DbAhUGRK0KHebMAfMQ6AEIggEwDQ#v=onepage&q=assemblies%20of%20god%20resolution%2016&f=false
Steve Maxwell
Troy Day, if you’re sensitive enough that you call a disagreement a personal attack, okay.
I believe the question is why certain regions are doing well and bringing up the net numbers of the AoG, other regions are doing poorly. Being that the AoG has a very decentralized organization, with fairly autonomous churches, I believe it would be interesting if Springfield did a little research as to what’s the difference between the successful regions vs the regions suffering losses.
Steve Maxwell
Troy Day, if you’re sensitive enough that you call a disagreement a personal attack, okay.
I believe the question is why certain regions are doing well and bringing up the net numbers of the AoG, other regions are doing poorly. Being that the AoG has a very decentralized organization, with fairly autonomous churches, I believe it would be interesting if Springfield did a little research as to what’s the difference between the successful regions vs the regions suffering losses.
Varnel Watson
Well not really Steve Maxwell Read your comments You comment on me and my abilities though you dont know me from Adam. I like to comment on the facts, like the ones your stats show – namely decline in 2015 2016 + what I have here for 2018 it all adds up. Sorry buddy its just the way it is Hate to say it but the growth is not here Now Theodore Wright why would you call the Jesus only folk a cult? Joseph Kidwell
Varnel Watson
Well not really Steve Maxwell Read your comments You comment on me and my abilities though you dont know me from Adam. I like to comment on the facts, like the ones your stats show – namely decline in 2015 2016 + what I have here for 2018 it all adds up. Sorry buddy its just the way it is Hate to say it but the growth is not here Now Theodore Wright why would you call the Jesus only folk a cult? Joseph Kidwell
Steve Maxwell
Sorry sensitive Troy, but you’ve presented no empirical evidence to support your claims. I have. To think that the AoG grew through 2016 and then all of the sudden shrunk, strains credulity. You lose the logic argument. The AoG is experiencing net growth. Get over it.
Steve Maxwell
Sorry sensitive Troy, but you’ve presented no empirical evidence to support your claims. I have. To think that the AoG grew through 2016 and then all of the sudden shrunk, strains credulity. You lose the logic argument. The AoG is experiencing net growth. Get over it.
Varnel Watson
The stats you posted show consistent decline in 2015-2016 in the US I have shown from your own stats ALL states where decline continues to occur until today 2018. The trend is there. Is it because of this clear cut prof you continue to resort to personal attacks and name calling? This cant be a Christian demeanor
Varnel Watson
The stats you posted show consistent decline in 2015-2016 in the US I have shown from your own stats ALL states where decline continues to occur until today 2018. The trend is there. Is it because of this clear cut prof you continue to resort to personal attacks and name calling? This cant be a Christian demeanor
Varnel Watson
Tom Steele Terry Wiles sad news this morning is that revival is hindered and we dont even now the reason and how to fix it
Terry Wiles
Troy Day. Now that is funny and sad. Sounds a little like âMiss Muffetâ who lost her sheep…
Maybe itâs because weâve lost sight of what true revival is: souls saved, lives changed, people added to the church daily.
Those things are happening here.
Varnel Watson
is she one of your AoG members?
Terry Wiles
I heard she was from Tennessee.
Anonymous
your mom
John Galloway
Lack of proper prayer while in church. No more getting on the knees, someone has always got to be yelling in a mic even though they may be praying and after about 2 minutes of prayer they have got to start singing. I noticed it starting back in the 70’s and gotten worse since. Go look at pictures from the early General Council meetings. Men were on their knees. Didn’t have to have loud fast music for people to dance in the spirit. I was taught as a kid that if the music stops and the dancing stopped,it wasn’t the spirit. Okay, so I’m old.
I have been in Pentecost for 73 years. I have seen the real and the phoney. I have witnessed miracles fantastic salvation.
Varnel Watson
yeah I am old too John but still Pentecostal Amen!
Varnel Watson
Hey yall I will post under here because the other post does not pick up my comments
Daniel J Hesse Joseph L. Arnold where do you “see” the AG 2017 stats Post a link pls Google does not show them. ???
The ACMR was published june 2017 but the growth was referring to 2016. Official ACMR is not online It was sent to ordained ministers only
First quarter 2018 stats showed major decline Terry Wiles However Top 5 US churches still are in Chicago, CO, Phoenix, Pittsburgh and LA
Terry Wiles It does NOT say through 2017 on the ACMR simply because 2017 ACMR was not made public except to our AG ordained bishops. At least I have not seen the 2017 ACMR public yet. It came through other channels. The only thing on your link is the 2016 ACMR – the rest as you well know is just the wishful thinking submitted on the website by some churches and NOT the official ACMR
There are TWO things we know publicly:
(1) ACMR Online – The ACMR Online System is now closed for calendar year 2017 reporting.
(2) in June of 2017 The Assemblies of God Annual Church Ministries Report (ACMR) was made public. It comprised the total 2016 stats. Nothing has been made public since then due to other factors
Further the number of white adherents decreased by 1.6% and the number of non-white adherents increased by 76.8%. Statistics for other key indicators of church healthâincluding conversions, Spirit baptisms, and water baptismsâhave not yet been released. #noughsaid
Joseph L. Arnold
I haven’t seen anything yet… Maybe at the PO?
Varnel Watson
or Terry Wiles can post the the actual 2017 ACMR here in the group for further comparison and talks
Varnel Watson
Terry Wiles There are TWO important dynamics that are being repeated and hinder our growth
Joe Absher has been posting on ministering in evangelism all and while our AG is weakening in the area of evangelism. Church which places a low priority on evangelism is committing spiritual suicide
Robert Borders and Peter Vandever has meed the point before that spending large amounts of money to build extravagant churches, rather than investing the money in evangelism and missions determines the he death of a denomination
Joe Absher
One prayer for salvation tonight. A little breaking a tenderheart and much grace. Saving grace. I think there’s a song like that. Amazing Grace.
Daniel J Hesse
The numbers do not include churches established by brethren who leave our fellowship to plant a nondenominational church or satellite churches. These numbers would speak greatly of our effect as a fellowship.
Varnel Watson
Did you find the actual 2017 ACMR ?
Varnel Watson
True Daniel J Hesse which stats were you looking at?
Daniel J Hesse
The ones on the AG site for 2017.
Daniel J Hesse
The AG has spawned more churches due to the independent streak in our roots than any other group known to date. But I can receive correction.
Daniel J Hesse
Mist of our younger leadership do not hold the same values as the previous generations.
Hunter McLain
I was listening to brother Jimmy Swaggart this morning before church and he was talking about the very same thing. People not gettin Saved, no speaking in tongues. Iâve never been in an AoG Church before, theys just one here in town. Iâm in Baptist Churches a lot and not many Baptist even believe in tongues. But itâs always strange when Iâm in Pentecostal Churches and donât hear no tongues. God Bless
Varnel Watson
Terry Wiles The pictures you are posting are useless without the Official ACMR Pls give is a link to the 2017 ACMR please Donald Phillips and Steve Maxwell may help you find it faster đ
Terry Wiles
https://ag.org/-/media/AGORG/Downloads/Statistics/Attendance-and-Adherents/2017-Vital-Statistics-District-Summary-and-National-Church-Size-by-Attendance.pdf
Varnel Watson
this is not the 2017 ACMR we’ve discussed these before They show decline in major states The 2017 ACMR is still missing though
Varnel Watson
Terry Wiles It is very simple For some reason 2017 official report is not made public though sources other than AG include it in their studies We will wait, see and compare when it comes out
Donald Phillips
Well, I don’t know much about the AG as a denomination but our local church just added a bunch of new families this summer and baptized 19 people last month. I think some of those churches might need to hire an evangelist to help their pastor.
Varnel Watson
Donald how many died in the past couple of years?
Donald Phillips
2
Varnel Watson
2 vs a bunch => you do the math
Donald Phillips
Why don’t we see more churches with Evangelists on staff? If we care about reaching the lost as much as we do about edifying the saints doesn’t it seem that we should hire some pastoral staff with a portfolio of evangelism?
Robert Borders
I have always been puzzled by the idea that we have to go out and hire people to come to our churches rather than training or disciplining those who are already present.
Donald Phillips
I am not promoting the idea of paid staff doing all of the work of the ministry. I simply think we should have some paid staff that are working in that area and training lay people to work in that area. Is evangelism not worthy of our attention? Is it not as valuable as music?
Varnel Watson
Right! Hired hand is not a faithful son…
Daniel J Hesse
Question-isn’t evangelism the work of every member? Timothy was commanded to do the work of an evangelist is this correct?
Donald Phillips
Isn’t praise the work of every member?
Donald Phillips
Why are you afraid of hiring staff to help the church focus on evangelism when you readily hire staff to help focus on worship and other ministries?
Varnel Watson
Hired hand vs faithful son
Robert Borders
Why do we need any paid staff? Or a distinction between clergy and laity. We didn’t need this during the great Jesus Movement of the late 1960s to the mid 1970s.
Roger David
I’d gladly take some hired hands as it seems there are very few faithful sons willing to do the work of an evangelist.
Varnel Watson
the Jesus movement ended badly – very very badly
Robert Borders
The Jesus Movement really has not ended. We are just older and got incorporated into traditional churches
Varnel Watson
Donald Phillips are you comments in general or specifically about the situation in our AG churches?
Scotty Searan
I have noticed down threw the years an evangelist is mostly a loner and not necessarily working out from a supporting church.
It also appears that the role of evangelist was abused in the 20th century
Varnel Watson
IF the role of evangelist was abused in the 20th century it has been neglected in the 21st century BUT that is not we are not having genuine revival in our AG today. Resolution 16 redefined it
Donald Phillips
I think there should be apostles prophets evangelists pastors and teachers in every local church no matter how big or small. I think we should pray for God to fill these offices in our churches but I don’t think we should label them the same. Apostles and Prophets are not good labels for today’s world.
Varnel Watson
Donald Resolution 16 put apostles to dead stop
Donald Phillips
No, they still have their place as church planters and missionaries. We just don’t give them an authoritative title like Apostle Paul.
Varnel Watson
Donald Phillips you must not be speaking about Ag. Resolution 16 put a halt on any and all apostles in our AG
Donald Phillips
Well, I pretty much agree with Resolution 16 but I never read it before. I dont like calling people apostles but I think we still have them until Jesus comes.
Scotty Searan
Failing to recognize a ministry of the church, by its given name is like failure to admit the office is for today
Varnel Watson
I disagree
Daniel J Hesse
When we read Eph 4 and it says…and he gave apostles, prophets, evangelists…what the tense and meaning?
Varnel Watson
Simple aorist – done deal Does not change
3rd person – done by God, not for man to change
the word before apostolos means “indeed” – affirmation
we should be more concerned with the word SOME
Daniel J Hesse
In context?
Varnel Watson
always in context
Daniel J Hesse
Troy Day so therefore we can say he still gives these people to the church?
Varnel Watson
Resolution 16 says otherwise Terry Wiles
Terry Wiles
Troy Day Your interpretation only.
Varnel Watson
Terry Wiles Resolution 16 is pretty clear on the apostolic language used within the perimeter of stateside AG churches. Furthermore, it was written as a response to the NAR attack on AG Dan Irving has proven this beyond doubt and will not mind showing you his work. What else is there to interpret ?
Terry Wiles
You are simply wrong on why it was written.
Varnel Watson
but I am right on what accomplished as a result
Thus, within the Assemblies of God, persons are not recognized by the title of apostle or prophet.
https://ag.org/Beliefs/Topics-Index/Apostles-and-Prophets
Terry Wiles
And they never have been recognized titles in my 71 years in the A/G.
Daniel J Hesse
I wonder what were the precedents for this response in the past and present?
Terry Wiles
Daniel J Hesse.
Not sure I understand the question you ask but I will try to answer.
The AG has historically seen the gift of apostle to the church as being fulfilled by missionaries who are those âsent outâ with the gospel.
Modern day groups want to see Apostles [and Prophets] as a distinct office with authority equal to or greater than the original Twelve.
The AG has historically reserved the term to those who were directly chosen by Jesus and walked with Him.
Five fold ministries and NAR hold to the âofficeâ interpretation.
Daniel J Hesse
I appreciate this explanation and instruction. I believe I will stick to the office of toilet bowl cleaner, dishwasher, and diaper changer.
Varnel Watson
Not sure who this was addressed to, but I did not ask a question. There’s no room for questions Resolution 16 is pretty clear as it stands
Terry Wiles
Troy Day. Read the thread and you will be informed. ?
Varnel Watson
It seems more and more clear that Resolution 16 was left ambiguous allowing for open interpretations This thread is no place to repair a text which is failing the test of time
Terry Wiles
Troy Day Resolution 16 was more narrowly written to address certain manifestation heresies with an awareness that the Apostles movement had direct links to speakers who promoted unbiblical practices. But it wasnât written specifically to address NAR.
As one of the primary editors I was involved in direct dialogue with members of doctrinal purity commission scholars.
Res 16 has served its purpose by clearly stating there is fundamentally a disagreement with those who bring in many unbiblical practices.
I believe the way it was introduced and eventually fully made position status, kept the AG from splitting.
It remains today as a warning for those who choose to take the divisive path that the proponents of the NAR and many freelance speakers, who are unaccountable to anyone, want to bring in.
Yet, many still open their pulpits to the divisive teachings.
Many AG churches were fully divided and the flock scattered. That has calmed down now somewhat.
The NAR, in my opinion, does as much damage to the kingdom of God as the previous shepherding movement did.
There is no need to edit the document. It states the positions clearly yet gives room for spiritual life while warning that there is a fine line between light and darkness.
Varnel Watson
Terry your opinion matters of course but it does not seem to reflect the substance of the text. I am simply saying that documents like that limit quite a bit of our opportunities and result in lack of revival in our organization
Terry Wiles
Troy Day Our lack of opportunity for revival has to do with two things.
1. Focusing on emotional manifestations that are generated psychologically by so called preachers who are promoters of their own self righteousness which is idolatry.
2. A lack of genuine personal Holy Spirit Baptism that brings with it an âenduementâ of âpower for life and serviceâ and fills the common person with a compassion for the lost in ways that cause us to give our all on the altar of sacrifice instead of bowing at the altars of manifestations that bring personal blessings and prosperity.
I respect your opinion. But you should check the stats of the numbers of souls saved in our churches. The higher percentage seldom report any.