Practical application of Pentecostal theology in politics, economy and social issues
Were the originators of the Church of God declaration of faith defenders of original sin: that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God? Original sin is an essential tenet of Wesleyanism.
What are your thoughts?
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The gospels seem to attribute the conception of Jesus to holy breath (το γαρ εν αυτη γεννηθεν εκ πνευματος εστιν αγιου):
ISV Mat 1:20 After he had thought about it, an angel of the Lord appeared
to him in a dream. “Joseph, son of David,” he said, “don’t be afraid
to take Mary as your wife, because what has been conceived in her is
from the Holy Spirit.ISV Luke 1:34 Mary asked the angel, “How can this happen, since I have not
had relations with a man?” Luk 1:35 The angel answered her, “The
Holy Spirit will come over you, and the power of the Most High will
surround you. Therefore, the child will be holy and will be called
the Son of God.
Yet Jesus’ father is not “the power of the most high” but rather the most high himself AND David:
KJV Luk_1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the
Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his
father David:
Why isn’t the breath/spirit considered Jesus’ father? In these gospel passages is the breath/spirit a person? Or God’s “power” and creative “organ”?
NOTES:
This is the BDAG entry for the verb which appears in Matthew 1:20 as “conceived”:
γεννάω fut. γεννήσω; 1 aor. ἐγέννησα; pf. γεγέννηκα. Pass.: fut. pl.
γεννηθήσεσθε Sir 41:9; 1 aor. ἐγεννήθην; pf. γεγέννημαι (Pind.,
Hdt.+).—See ARahlfs, Genesis 1926, 39. Gener., to cause someth. to
come into existence, primarily through procreation or parturition. ①
become the parent of, beget ⓐ by procreation (oft. LXX, fr. Gen 4:18
on) Mt 1:2–20 (cp. Diod S 4, 67, 2–68, 6, the genealogy of the
Aeolians: 67, 4 Ἄρνη ἐγέννησεν Αἰόλον κ. Βοιωτόν; 67, 7 Ἱππάλκιμος
ἐγέννησε Πηνέλεων; 68:1 Σαλμωνεὺς ἐγέννησε θυγατέρα … Τυρώ; 68, 3
Ποσειδῶν ἐγέννησε Πελίαν κ. Νηλέα; 68, 6 Νηλεὺς παῖδας ἐγέννησε
δώδεκα. Interchanged with ἐγέννησε are ἐτέκνωσε, ἦν υἱός, παῖδες
ἐγένοντο, etc.; cp. PMich 155, 7. The continuity is not formalized to
the degree in Mt, but in Diod S 4, 69, 1–3 ἐγέννησε is repeated six
times in a short space, and 4, 75, 4f ἐγέννησε occurs four times with
the names of fathers and sons; Did., Gen. 144, 27); Ac 7:8, 29. ἐκ w.
gen. of the mother (Hdt. 1, 108, 2; Diod S 4, 2, 1; 4, 62, 1; Palaeph.
44; PLond V, 1730, 10 οἱ ἐξ αὐτῆς γεννηθέντες υἱοί; Tob 1:9; 2 Esdr
10:44; Demetr.: 722 Fgm. 2, 2 Jac.; TestJob 1:6; Jos, Ant. 12, 189) Mt
1:3, 5f.—Pass. be fathered (Orig., C. Cels. 8, 66, 23) ἐκ τῆς
παιδίσκης κατὰ σάρκα w. the slave-woman, according to the flesh (i.e.
in line with human devising; opp. διʼ ἐπαγγελίας) Gal 4:23. ὁ κατὰ
σάρκα γεννηθείς he that was fathered by human design, opp. ὁ κατὰ
πνεῦμα he that was fathered by the Spirit’s design, i.e. in keeping
with the divine promise, vs. 23) vs. 29. τὸ ἐν αὐτῇ γεννηθὲν ἐκ
πνεύματός ἐστιν that which is conceived in her is of the Spirit Mt
1:20 (τὸ γεννηθέν of that which is yet unborn: Diod S 17, 77, 3). Here
the male principle is introduced by ἐκ (Lucian, Dial. Deor. 20, 14 ἐκ
κύκνου γεγεννημένη; Phlegon: 257 Fgm. 36, 2, 4 Jac.; Ps-Callisth. 1,
30, 3 ἐξ Ἄμμωνος ἐγεννήθη; TestSim 2:2) as J 1:13 (ἐγενήθ. P75et al.);
but in 3:6 the imagery is complex, involving a maternal aspect in vs.
4. W. ἀπό (En 15:8 οἱ γίγαντες οἱ γεννηθέντες ἀπὸ τ. πνευμάτων κ. σαρκός) ἀφʼ ἑνὸς ἐγεννήθησαν they were fathered by one man Hb 11:12
(numerous edd. ἐγενήθησαν). ἐκ πορνείας οὐ γεγεννήμεθα (v.l.
ἐγεννήθημεν) J 8:41 (cp. StudPal XX, 4, 30 ἐξ ἀγράφων γάμων
γεγεννῆσθαι). ἐν ἁμαρτίαις σὺ ἐγεννήθης ὅλος you’re a born sinner,
totally! 9:34.—Lk 1:35 (where mng. 2 is also prob. [as in τὸ
γεννώμενον Philo, Plant. 15]. S. AFridrichsen, SymbOsl 6, 1928, 33–36;
HAlmqvist, Plut. u. d. NT ’46, 60f). ⓑ by exercising the role of a
parental figure, ext. of 1a (Philo, Leg. ad Gai. 58 μᾶλλον αὐτὸν τῶν
γονέων γεγέννηκα), of a teacher on pupils ἐν Χ. Ἰ. διὰ τοῦ εὐαγγελίου
ὑμᾶς ἐγέννησα I became your father as Christians through the gospel 1
Cor 4:15; Phlm 10 (s. Ltzm. and JWeiss on 1 Cor 4:15; ADieterich,
Mithraslit. 1903, 146ff).—Pass. ἐκ (τοῦ) θεοῦ γεννᾶσθαι J 1:13 (on the
rdg. of the Lat. ms. b, s. JPryor, NovT 27, ’85, 296–318); 1J 2:29;
3:9; 4:7; 5:1, 4, 18. On γεννᾶσθαι ἐξ ὕδατος κ. πνεύματος J 3:5 cp.
1QS 4:20–22 and s. YYadin, JBL 74, ’55, 40–43. Also ἄνωθεν γ. J 3:3,
7. πᾶς ὁ ἀγαπῶν τὸν γεννήσαντα ἀγαπᾷ τὸν γεγεννημένον ἐξ αὐτοῦ everyone who loves the father (=God) loves the child (=Christ or one’s
fellow Christian) 1J 5:1 (on γεννᾶσθαι ἐκ θεοῦ s. Hdb. on J 3:3 and 1J
3:9 and the sources and lit. listed there; s. also παλιγγενεσία). Cp.
σήμερον γεγέννηκά σε (Ps 2:7) 1 Cl 36:4; GEb 18, 37; Ac 13:33 (held by
some to have been the orig. rdg. Lk 3:22 v.l.; s. JHillmann, Die
Kindheitsgesch. Jesu nach Lucas: Jahrbücher f. Protestantische
Theologie 17/2, 1891, 192–261; HUsener, D. Weihnachtsfest2 1911,
38ff); Hb 1:5; 5:5. p 194 ② to give birth to, bear (Aeschyl.,
Suppl. 48; X., De Rep. Lac. 1, 3; Lucian, Sacrif. 6; Plut., Mor., 3c;
Ps.-Callisth. 1, 9, 2 ἐκ θεοῦ γεννήσασα παῖδα=a woman who has borne a
child to a god; BGU 132 II, 5; Judg 11:1 B; Is 66:9; 4 Macc 10:2) Lk
1:13, 57; 23:29; J 16:21 w. τίκτειν; AcPl Ha 8, 28 εἰς δουλείαν
γεννῶσα who bears children for slavery Gal 4:24. Pass. be born (ἐκ
παρθένου Did., Gen. 96, 13) ἐγεννήθη Μωϋσῆς Ac 7:20; cp. Hb 11:23.
γεγεννημένος ἐν Ταρσῷ Ac 22:3; μήπω … γεννηθέντων Ro 9:11; πρὶν ἡμᾶς
γεννηθῆναι before we were born 1 Cl 38:3. εἰς τὸν κόσμον come into the
world J 16:21; Mt 2:1, 4; 19:12; 26:24 (=1 Cl 46:8); Mk 14:21 (cp. En
38:2); Lk 1:35 (1a is also prob.; a v.l. adds ἐκ σοῦ, which can be
rendered ‘the child to whom you give birth’). ἐκ Μαρίας ἐγεννήθη
AcPlCor 1:14; 2:5 (cp. Mt 1:16); J 3:4; 9:2, 19f, 32; IEph 18:2; ITr
11:2; ἀληθῶς γ. be in fact born (in opp. to Docetism) 9:1. γεγεννημένα
(v.l. γεγενημένα) εἰς ἅλωσιν 2 Pt 2:12. εἰς τοῦτο for this purpose J
18:37. διάλεκτος ἐν ᾑ ἐγεννήθημεν the language in which we were born
i.e., which we have spoken fr. infancy Ac 2:8. ἐγὼ δὲ καὶ γεγέννημαι
but I was actually born a Roman citizen 22:28. οὗτος ἐγεννήθη βασιλεύς
born a king GJs 20:4 codd. γεννῶνται και γεννῶσιν Lk 20:34 v.l. ③ to
cause someth. to happen, bring forth, produce, cause, fig. of various
kinds of production (Pla. et al.; Polyb. 1, 67, 2 στάσις ἐγεννᾶτο;
Philo, De Jos. 254; Jos., Ant. 6, 144) 2 Ti 2:23.—γ. καρπόν produce
fruit (Philo, Op. M. 113) ITr 11:1. Forged writing γεγεννημένον for
γεγενημένον GJs 24:3.—B. 280. DELG s.v. γίγνομαι p. 222. M-M. TW.Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., & Bauer, W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon
of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed.,
pp. 193–194). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
Dollas Messer
I believe so Charles.
Charles Page
can we be Wesleyan and deny original sin?
David Lewayne Porter
I believe the defender of original sin was God, as written by Paul “Romans 5:12, Romans 3:23”.
This one comes to mind as well “the Fathers have eaten sour grapes and the children’s teeth are set on edge”.
Dollas Messer
Maybe so Charles, but would Wesley receive them? He was pretty tight with who could join his “Methodist Clubs.”
Dollas Messer
Here’s an idea, Charles.What about referring to the Wesleyans who do believe in original sin as classical (old school) and those who don’t as modern (new school) Wesleyans?
Dollas Messer
Why not? We have classical and modern Clavinists and classical and neo-Pentecostals.
Dollas Messer
Would Wesley entertain the idea of a Wesleyan Penetecostal? Or would Calvin be a Calvinist Pentecostal?
Odette Del Rio
We can discuss many things… that are a distraction to what our faith is all about. I don’t think that heaven has separations for every denomination created by the minds of men. Our faith grows by hearing His word preached, by reading & meditating on it & believing it is God’s word.
Jim Price
For the sake of discussion let us say this about original sin. Keep in mind that Adam and Eve were both young, did not have any education and had never had any exposure to the larger world, Eve was persuaded to try something before it;s time ( that is at some time she would have been able to taste of knowledge and to know good and evil ) and now according to what we have been taught she wanted to experience something to early in life ( a common sin among the young ) and for that she is punished, Adam is punished, the snake is punished, the earth is punished and all of mankind is punished even before they are born. Many Jewish scholars think this punishment is so out of line for a first time offender that there must be something wrong with the way the story was told. We have come to know God as being fair in judgement and even showing mercy and extending grace. So the extreme punishment for Eve’s sin seems out of character. ” For with what judgement we judge, we are judged.”
Charles Page
Jim, extremely ludicrous…more like wishful thinking
Charles Page
lol Adam and Eve were not young but fully developed with the best of education and world view. Eve’s sin carries with it an excuse, she was deceived however Adam’s was willfully committed.
Adam’s sin was not a common sin among the young. Adam’s sin was a capital sin under the law of God and calls for death.
Jim Price
Me thinks you read to much into the text. The best of education? God didn’t spend much time with them, there was no one else to teach them. World view? They had never been out of the garden, didn’t even know the rest of the world existed, had never worn clothes, never heard music or attended a church service, to turn them out into the harsh world without tools or seeds, it’s a wonder they survived.
Charles Page
Didn’t they know #120 in the Red Back Hymnal?
Charles Page
Jim, I gather you deny the doctrine of original sin, correct.
Jim Price
Oh I don’t doubt that Eve and then Adam sinned and missed the mark, just as many moderns sin ( drinking and driving ) and it leads to their death but not always. Where the KJ says ; ” in the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die”, in the Hebrew it reads “thou shalt be touched by death a very different reading. Obviously Adam and Eve did not die on that day but lived a long life. So there is some problem with the manuscripts ( there being no originals ) what I am saying is that this relatively mild sin ( not a capital sin ) was punished and we are still being punished all these six thousand years later. Yet I don’t feel that I am being punished for Adams sin since I have been covered by the blood of the Lamb.
Charles Page
Jim, do you consider yourself theologically defined by the CoG declaration of faith?
Pat Fretwell
Adam & Eve lived in a perfect world. There was no sin outside of the garden. So comparing to young now is apples to oranges. First man, first woman, plan of redemption set forth with sin entering the world. I believe the Bible literally means what it said.
Jim Price
Not a perfect world, not if there was something there that could cause death, not if there was a snake that could talk!
John Earp
While Wesley and Wesleyanism have historically affirmed Augustine’s Original Sin doctrine, neither the CoG Declaration of Faith nor its Doctrinal Commitments say a single word concerning Augustine’s concept of Original Sin. I have for several years now believed that JB Mitchell’s influence on AJ Tomlinson regarding the Oberlin Theology of Finney and Mahan had an effect on the formation of official CoG doctrine. Several years ago (around 2000, if I recall correctly) the CoG Evangel included an excellent historical article in which Wesley and Finney were recognized as the primary theological influences of the CoG. I would definitely like to research it more.