Practical application of Pentecostal theology in politics, economy and social issues
Were the originators of the Church of God declaration of faith defenders of original sin: that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God? Original sin is an essential tenet of Wesleyanism.
What are your thoughts?
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(NET) Matt 5:19 So anyone who breaks one of the least of these commands
and teaches others to do so will be called least in the kingdom of
heaven, but whoever obeys them and teaches others to do so will be
called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness goes beyond that of the experts in the law and the Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
There are some commentators who says it signifies exclusion from the kingdom of heaven, ie. hell; whereas some argue that they remain in kingdom as least, meaning they remain saved in heaven. Which one is accurate? Is Christ giving a provision for small sins here or giving no provision at all?
For example, Daniel Whedon commentary:
Many of the best commentators understand this as signifying that he
shall be excluded. Yet such, surely, is not its exact meaning. Clearly
to be least IN the kingdom of heaven is far less than shall in no
case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Heinrich Meyer’s Critical and Exegetical Commentary on the New Testament mentions:
He is not to be excluded (as Augustine, Luther, Calvin, Calovius,
Wolf, Bengel, and others have misinterpreted the meaning of ἐλάχ.
κληθ.), because his antinomianism is not a principle, not directed
against the law as such, but only against individual precepts of the
law, which in themselves are small, and whose importance as a whole he
does not recognise
Johann Albrecht Bengel’s Gnomon of the New Testament
Mat 5:19. Αύσῃ, shall break) The antithetical word to this is
ποιήσῃ, shall do, which occurs further on in this verse. The Scribes,
who thought themselves “great,” were in the habit of breaking them.
The same verb, λύω, occurs in Joh 7:23; Joh 10:35.—τούτων, of these)
those, namely, which follow in Mat 5:22; Mat 5:28, etc.—τῶν ἐλαχίστων,
of the least) These precepts, “Thou shalt not kill,” etc., are not
essentially the least, for in them the whole law is contained. But
they are so only inasmuch as, when rightly explained, they regulate
even the most subtile affections and emotions of the soul, and the
slightest movements of the tongue, and thus, when compared with other
precepts, appear to men to be the least.—ἐλάχιστος, least) Referring
to the preceding ἐλαχίστων. An instance of Ploce.[191] As we treat the
Word of God, so does God treat us; see Joh 17:6; Joh 17:11; Rev 3:10.
“A little” signifies “almost nothing,” whence “the least” comes to
mean “none at all” (for they considered anger, for instance, as of no
consequence whatever); cf. in Mat 5:20, “ye shall not enter.”
ἐλάχιστος; has a different force in this passage from that which ὁ
μικρότερος (the least) “in the kingdom of heaven” has in ch. Mat
11:11.—ἐν τῂ βασιλείᾳ τὼν οὐρανῶν, in the kingdom of heaven) which
cannot endure the presence of the unrighteous.—ποιήσῃ καὶ διδάξῃ,
shall do and teach) The same order of words occurs in Act 1:1.—ποιήσῃ,
shall do them, sc. all; for it is not lawful to break or neglect even
one of them.—οὗτος, this man, he) A pronoun used emphatically. Comp.
with this use of οὗτος, ch. Mat 7:21 (Latin Version[192]); Luk 9:24;
Joh 7:18.—μέγας, great) All the commandments are of great account to
him, especially in their full compass[193] (see Mat 5:18); therefore
he shall be called great.
Dollas Messer
I believe so Charles.
Charles Page
can we be Wesleyan and deny original sin?
David Lewayne Porter
I believe the defender of original sin was God, as written by Paul “Romans 5:12, Romans 3:23”.
This one comes to mind as well “the Fathers have eaten sour grapes and the children’s teeth are set on edge”.
Dollas Messer
Maybe so Charles, but would Wesley receive them? He was pretty tight with who could join his “Methodist Clubs.”
Dollas Messer
Here’s an idea, Charles.What about referring to the Wesleyans who do believe in original sin as classical (old school) and those who don’t as modern (new school) Wesleyans?
Dollas Messer
Why not? We have classical and modern Clavinists and classical and neo-Pentecostals.
Dollas Messer
Would Wesley entertain the idea of a Wesleyan Penetecostal? Or would Calvin be a Calvinist Pentecostal?
Odette Del Rio
We can discuss many things… that are a distraction to what our faith is all about. I don’t think that heaven has separations for every denomination created by the minds of men. Our faith grows by hearing His word preached, by reading & meditating on it & believing it is God’s word.
Jim Price
For the sake of discussion let us say this about original sin. Keep in mind that Adam and Eve were both young, did not have any education and had never had any exposure to the larger world, Eve was persuaded to try something before it;s time ( that is at some time she would have been able to taste of knowledge and to know good and evil ) and now according to what we have been taught she wanted to experience something to early in life ( a common sin among the young ) and for that she is punished, Adam is punished, the snake is punished, the earth is punished and all of mankind is punished even before they are born. Many Jewish scholars think this punishment is so out of line for a first time offender that there must be something wrong with the way the story was told. We have come to know God as being fair in judgement and even showing mercy and extending grace. So the extreme punishment for Eve’s sin seems out of character. ” For with what judgement we judge, we are judged.”
Charles Page
Jim, extremely ludicrous…more like wishful thinking
Charles Page
lol Adam and Eve were not young but fully developed with the best of education and world view. Eve’s sin carries with it an excuse, she was deceived however Adam’s was willfully committed.
Adam’s sin was not a common sin among the young. Adam’s sin was a capital sin under the law of God and calls for death.
Jim Price
Me thinks you read to much into the text. The best of education? God didn’t spend much time with them, there was no one else to teach them. World view? They had never been out of the garden, didn’t even know the rest of the world existed, had never worn clothes, never heard music or attended a church service, to turn them out into the harsh world without tools or seeds, it’s a wonder they survived.
Charles Page
Didn’t they know #120 in the Red Back Hymnal?
Charles Page
Jim, I gather you deny the doctrine of original sin, correct.
Jim Price
Oh I don’t doubt that Eve and then Adam sinned and missed the mark, just as many moderns sin ( drinking and driving ) and it leads to their death but not always. Where the KJ says ; ” in the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die”, in the Hebrew it reads “thou shalt be touched by death a very different reading. Obviously Adam and Eve did not die on that day but lived a long life. So there is some problem with the manuscripts ( there being no originals ) what I am saying is that this relatively mild sin ( not a capital sin ) was punished and we are still being punished all these six thousand years later. Yet I don’t feel that I am being punished for Adams sin since I have been covered by the blood of the Lamb.
Charles Page
Jim, do you consider yourself theologically defined by the CoG declaration of faith?
Pat Fretwell
Adam & Eve lived in a perfect world. There was no sin outside of the garden. So comparing to young now is apples to oranges. First man, first woman, plan of redemption set forth with sin entering the world. I believe the Bible literally means what it said.
Jim Price
Not a perfect world, not if there was something there that could cause death, not if there was a snake that could talk!
John Earp
While Wesley and Wesleyanism have historically affirmed Augustine’s Original Sin doctrine, neither the CoG Declaration of Faith nor its Doctrinal Commitments say a single word concerning Augustine’s concept of Original Sin. I have for several years now believed that JB Mitchell’s influence on AJ Tomlinson regarding the Oberlin Theology of Finney and Mahan had an effect on the formation of official CoG doctrine. Several years ago (around 2000, if I recall correctly) the CoG Evangel included an excellent historical article in which Wesley and Finney were recognized as the primary theological influences of the CoG. I would definitely like to research it more.