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Peter A Vandever | PentecostalTheology.com
This is a touchy issue I realize it but what is your views on the United Pentecostal Church? Are they brothers or a cult?
John Kissinger [08/23/2015 12:57 PM]
Already discussed thoroughly. AG resolved it in 1916. Actually, Rick Wadholm Jr is planing a centennial celebration of the event next year http://newsok.com/article/5438939
Peter A Vandever [08/23/2015 12:58 PM]
and what did you come to believe?
John Kissinger [08/23/2015 12:59 PM]
Never had an issue with oneness theology. It was already resolved when growing up. Even Charles Page never had to deal with it
Peter A Vandever [08/23/2015 1:01 PM]
Oneness is still alive in the UPCI
Keith Sartin Jr. [08/23/2015 1:20 PM]
It says 404 page not found. Did it get taken down?
Peyton Gurley [08/23/2015 1:32 PM]
United Pentecostal isn’t the only Oneness group.
Jon Sellers [08/23/2015 1:38 PM]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oneness_Pentecostalism
Based on this article I would not call them a cult either. I think they are in error. But they do believe in Jesus and his work on the cross. They do not deny that Jesus is God in the flesh, but their understanding of the being of God and the incarnation is mistaken.
So I think they are saved by faith, but have several key doctrinal errors that would prevent me from joining their church.
Peter A Vandever [08/23/2015 1:38 PM]
true but 1) they are the biggest 2) I have the most contact with
John Bartlett [08/23/2015 1:39 PM]
Any group which believes or changes the fundamental plan of salvation is considered a cult. Grudem writes that oneness theology has never been accepted as a true part of Christianity. He has a section in his systematic theology book. They fit the definition of a cult.
John Bartlett [08/23/2015 1:40 PM]
Further, they are the old heretical view of modalism reborn. It has been rejected before and should be today as well.
John Kissinger [08/23/2015 1:41 PM]
Peter A Vandever Maybe you need to stop judging numbers by your own experience. Anytime you say MANY is like 2-3 maybe 4. How many is your “most contact” realistically (not evangelistically) considered with?
Peter A Vandever [08/23/2015 1:45 PM]
UPC is 5 million strong.
Peter A Vandever [08/23/2015 1:45 PM]
I have been to UPC churches, I have not been to PAW churches.
John Kissinger [08/23/2015 1:46 PM]
And you’ve dealt with all of them? They are not even the same theologically. I have dealt with a group that believe that the persons of the Trinity are representation(s) only NOT person(s)
Rick Wadholm Jr [08/23/2015 2:32 PM]
I have had lengthy and detailed conversations with several of the UPCI’s leading scholars (Biblical and theological) including fellowshipping around the dinner table several times with their General Superintendent David Bernard. In fact, several times a year I share a hotel room with several of the UPCI scholars over the course of several days. I consider their friendship to be significant in my own life even as I have always been open with them about disagreeing concerning their doctrine of God.
I understand the UPCI to essentially hold to a trinitarian economy of God and a unitarian ontology of God. Thus I find myself able to carry on fellowship with their leadership. However, I have known several of their pastors and members for which I would not continue such fellowship because they misrepresented their belief in God as absolute oneness.
The bigger issue in dealing with the UPCI is legalism and the order of salvation that requires water baptism in Jesus name only and the baptism in the Holy Spirit with the sign of tongues.
I have also had engagements with pastors and leadership from several other Oneness Pentecostal groups, one of which recently moved to a trinitarian confession.
Peter A Vandever [08/23/2015 2:40 PM]
Soteriology is the bigger issue with me. Legalism is a problem in Pentecostal camps. Some AG churches can be just as bad.
Patricia Riley [08/23/2015 3:25 PM]
I don’t think they qualify as a cult, however, their theology is, shall we say…… ummm…. wrong.
Herman Spencer [08/23/2015 3:37 PM]
The church was born on day of Passover Pentecost if you study you will find that many have tried to destroy it but you must be born of the spirit to get to heaven God word stands on it own you can not Chang it many are trying to today the power of God will not by the spirit lead away for his word there name will be moved from. Ok of life if the do. His word is the rock where mosses stood
Christopher Hart [08/23/2015 3:40 PM]
They have essential gospel and Christology right enough to be counted brothers, IMO.
Michael H. Robinson [08/23/2015 3:43 PM]
I always say, if we can talk about Jesus, We can have a conversation.
I was raised Apostolic, I am now a Church of God Pastor, I found that John chap. 17 answered my questions on oneness.
I have many friends still in Apostolic circles and I count them as Brothers and Sisters in Christ.
Herman Spencer [08/23/2015 3:47 PM]
Water baptism is in ward sin of out word confession I have see this for over 50 years when you come out of water. It reps restriction yes you are not ones saved all ways saved you must run the race to the end to cross to the finished the rabbit lost he stops to rest. Lost
P
Herman Spencer [08/23/2015 3:53 PM]
The thieve one the cross said remember me .jesus siam today you shall be with me in paradise . End of it Jesus do not change in any way what Jesus said there are sheep and goats God will separate them preach Jesus the he is the way the truth and the life
John Kissinger [08/23/2015 4:13 PM]
Christopher Hart the essential Gospel of the Great commission is to baptize in the name of the Father, Son and the Holy Ghost, UPC insist on baptizing in the name of Jesus Only. Is this different?
Herman Spencer [08/23/2015 4:14 PM]
If they are of the word teaches them with love but be true about the doc. Live with them in the love of god he shows his love live it before them if God is love them let God do the or make the call no I do not. Handl snakes satan is snake in te grass
Pp
Jon Sellers [08/23/2015 4:39 PM]
This side of heaven we have a responsibility to teach the truth and to correct error. I believe Oneness is in error. So we should maintain a corrective stance toward their doctrines.
However, it seems to me that their confession of Jesus as Lord and Savior will get them into heaven.
We are saved by faith in Christ not by the perfection of our doctrines. Many will enter heaven with error in doctrine.
Charles Page [08/23/2015 4:54 PM]
there is hope for me!!!
[09/02/2015 7:00 AM]
agree. I can never connect with the articles from this fb group. It takes me to a page with a picture of the title and then a bunch of disgusting ads and it leaves me with nothing but what I’m typing on right here! Where are your articles? When I try to find them they say page does not exist!
Gsry Frothingham
John Kissinger. It is baptize in the name of the Father, and of Son and of the Holy Ghost. Leaving out …in the name…out changes meaning.
William DeArteaga
Thank you for posting this.
Louise Cummings
On reading these comments. I’ve heard them say they believe in baptizing in the Name Of The Father, Son and the Holy Ghost. Then they say what is the Name. It’s Jesus. They say we baptize in a tittle and not a Name. They say He was the Father. Came as Jesus. And went back to the Father. And came back as the Holy Spirit. That’s the I understood they believed. I let God be the Judge. In John it says He was The Word. And The Word was made flesh and dwelt among us. As the Precious Son Of God.
Jimmy Pearson
I thought that denying the trinity was condemned as heresy by the church centuries ago.
Charles Page
Unitarian Christians
Jon Ray
A Christian is the one who accepts The Trinity.
Father, Son, Holy Spirit are 3 Persons in the ONE God Head.
NOT 3 gods – ONE GOD (Athanasian Creed) http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/?p=13907
Charles Page
Is he a Christian because he accepts the trinity?
Jon Ray
or does He/She accept the Trinity b/c they are Christians?
Charles Page
Maybe they don’t have an opportunity
Jeffry Woolston
If being in error make one a cult then there have been times in the history of the COG the we would come under that heading.
Angel Ruiz
We are not talking about error here…. UPCI perpetuates false doctrine…
By denying the Trinity they have a 100% different Christ…
Brian Crisp
It’s easy to call people you don’t agree with a cult. I don’t agree with the doctrine of the UPC but don’t believe they are a cult. Is the CoG a cult? That may be a question to ask like some do I am sure.
Angel Ruiz
Wow… I dont agree with Baptist or Methodist but at the very least the still hold biblical essentials….
UPCI… Has a total DIFFERENT GOD
Brian Crisp
How so?
Angel Ruiz
Biblical God is Trinity….
UPCI god is a oneness…
Brian Crisp
They worship Jesus as we do. They just have the Godhead wrong
Angel Ruiz
They worship a jesus.. But not the biblical Jesus…
UPCI Jesus is not eternal… To them the Son has a beginning and end…
Dan Irving
If I’m not mistaken, doesn’t the UPC make Jesus-Only baptism a condition of fellowship? If that is true, it seems it is they that have drawn the red line. What the rest of the Church believes about them (or how we would classify them) would therefore seem moot.
Scotty Searan
They have scripture they could interpret with to back them. It is a matter of interpretation
Dan Irving
As does everyone else, as well. What is uniquely remarkable about UPC (and correct me if I’m wrong) is they have taken a non-essential issue and made it essential doctrine, thus drawing a partition between themselves and the rest of the Church. I find that sad. ?
Angel Ruiz
Yes they taken non essentials and made the a,must for salvation… And what is essential they have taken heterodoxy point of view
Angel Ruiz
And just to answer COG TN is not a cult…
Scotty Searan
To we holiness people we are not a cult
But to those who do not believe as we, they say we are.
Brian Crisp
No one said they were. But someone who disagrees with CoG may like this thread has done against a denomination they disagree with
Street Preacherz
It is my understanding that “oneness” doctrine requires the baptism in the holy ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues for salvation. This I believe is contrary to the gospel.
“Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.”
– Romans 5:1,2
Angel Ruiz
A works salvation is a false gospel… There for a cult
Street Preacherz
I can’t go that far…
Given:
Prayers in Jesus name
Obedience in water baptism
Sincere devotion to God
The cross as central piece
Evidence of the Holy Spirit
The love for God’s people…
If you ever get in a fight (spiritual) they are true Allies, same for Salvation Army, and Those dogmatic saved by grace alone folks.
“For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.”
– Matthew 5:20
Salvation is critical thinking. One day you will stand before God. Are you trusting wholly in Christ? Jesus Christ. Does he own you? Your behaviour? Your praying? Your conversation? Your believing? More importantly will he “own” you on that day. Don’t be deceived. Narrow is the way!
Angel Ruiz
Very interesting… But by that definition so are JWs and Mormons….
Street Preacherz
Angel Ruiz true enough… im in no hurrry to throw anybody under the bus. some catholics are saved, and some calvinist are saved. some penetcostalas are phonies as are some baptist. maybe we’ll stand together on the day of judgment. maybe miles apart. Genearalities are not neccesarily realities.
Street Preacherz
maybe i need to re-examine this. but i do know some apostolic folks they seem genuinely saved to me?
Bill Terrell
I got saved in prison 22 years ago the prison I was at had a service every night of week with volunteers of different denominations,2 were upc and church of Christ I had just been baptize in fire and the Holy Ghost I was so excited I wanted to share with the upc pastor my experience but he didn’t care he proceeded to tell me I wasn’t saved because the guy who baptized me didn’t say exactly in Jesus name they caused a lot of division but thank God I didn’t get caught in there doctrine I believe they are saved but straining a gnat and swallowing the camel.they had only a handful of inmates in their service but the nondenominational service was jammed pack and a mighty move…
Angel Ruiz
Well if he did not say anything… By the standard of there Literature and there doctrine u are not saved unless u are baptized in Jesus name…
Angel Ruiz
Often referred to as “Oneness Pentecostals” because of their denial ,of the triune nature of God, the denomination was formed around a heretical teaching known as modalism. Because they deny the true nature of God as revealed in Scripture and embrace other unbiblical teachings, this group is best classified as a cult rather than a true Christian denomination. Like other cults such as Mormonism and Jehovah Witnesses, this form of extreme Pentecostalism denies the true nature of God and in reality preaches a different gospel than true biblical Christianity.