John Kissinger [10/28/2015 2:02 PM]
I can do better than that in 4 words: ain’t no post-trib rapture
David N Laura Aragon [10/28/2015 2:04 PM]
RITE ON! ORALE! (y
Stan Wayne [10/28/2015 2:38 PM]
Link Hudson [10/28/2015 5:52 PM]
John Kissinger Could anyone who believes in pre-trib tell me how they reconcile II Thessalonians 1 with pre-trib?
Jamil Thomas [10/28/2015 6:47 PM]
thank you, God be with you always
John Kissinger [10/28/2015 9:11 PM]
Link moat probably, if you specify your question …
Link Hudson [10/29/2015 7:38 AM]
Look at what I posted to you earlier in the thread. If II Thessalonians 1 tells us that Jesus gives the church rest and comes to be glorified in the saints when He comes to execute wrath on them that know not God? It doesn’t say this occurs 7 years before Jesus comes back?
Stan Wayne [10/29/2015 7:48 AM]
Link look at all my links above re 1 Thess 1 – Much about future gets compressed – witness Olivet discourse or Joel 2
Link Hudson [10/29/2015 8:01 AM]
Stan Wayne, got too much on my plate for 30 links. How about one or two verses? If I read or listen to long expositions, I find that pre-trib is assumed and the commentary goes on and on using pre-trib as an assumption.
Or it’s based on something rather weak like ‘not appointed unto wrath.’ Israel in Egypt wasn’t appointed unto wrath either. Isn’t that similar in a lot of ways to what we see in Revelation? ‘Allegorical interpretations of John being told ‘Come up hither’ as evidence for the rapture is weak, too.
But we have more direct teaching of scripture about the resurrection occuring when Christ returns, and the resurrection precedes the rapture (they rise first, and then we are caught up together to meet the Lord in the air.) Paul speaks of those who are Christ’s being made alive at His coming, not seven years before His coming.
And take a look at this passage from II Thessalonians 2
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
Assuming this is in chronicological order, first he mentions the coming of the Lord, and then our gathering together of him. NOT, our gathering together unto Him, and then the Lord coming 7 years later.
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
Why wouldn’t the ‘day of Christ’ refer back to the day in which the Lord Jesus Christ executes judgement on the wicked and is glorified in the saints referred to in chapter 1 v. 11, the day in which he returns and raptures the church. Why posit a different day?
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
The man of sin is revealed BEFORE that day comes, not after.
Stan Wayne [10/29/2015 8:21 AM]
I understand the strengths of post Trib – there are many passages that seem that way – the Bible can be maddening whether studying Trinity or Works or Eternal security – very few slam dunks – listen to this :
Stan Wayne [10/29/2015 8:34 AM]
John Kissinger [10/29/2015 12:48 PM]
John Kissinger [10/29/2015 2:11 PM]
hey Link before we start – do you believe in the literal interpretation of the Bible prophecies?
Link Hudson [10/29/2015 3:02 PM]
John Kissinger as far as interpretatios go, I’m more on the literal side. I don’t think anyone truly takes all he prophecies in Revelation literal, e.g. that there will be an actual physical literal giant monster with a literal whore on it with a Babylon tatoo.
Link Hudson [10/29/2015 3:32 PM]
Stan Wayne, I’m looking at the chapter 1 part of the soniclight link you posted. It looks like another case of trying to squeeze a passage to fit pre-trib. It’s not convicing at all if you can’t find the onramp for the circle of pretrib reasoning. I actually grew up pre-trib and would have argued in favor of it. Eventually, I had to be honest and realize that I could find any evidence in scripture for it, and plenty of scripture that was actually post-trib if I didn’t make all the pre-trib assumptions.
Pre-tribbers make much of John not referring to the ‘saints’ scattered throughout the world as the ‘church.’ It may be that John just used the term for local assemblies and not for the ‘church throughout time and space’ or ‘the chuch militant’, uses we see in Paul’s later writings. But here in II Thessalonians 1, the church recieves >>>Paul proceeded to explain that the Thessalonians were not in the Tribulation (2:1-12). Only if they were already in the Tribulation could the hope of relief by a posttribulational Rapture have been a comfort to them. Consequently, it seems that in 1:5-10, Paul was seeking to comfort his readers by assuring them that ultimately they would experience relief by entering rest in the Millennium—following Christ’s Second Coming. Ultimately God would punish their persecutors at the Great White Throne judgment, at the end of the Millennium (Rev. 20:11-15).<<<
Paul had just told them about the day when the Lord Jesus would return executing judgment on them that know not God, and give them rest in chapter 1. In chapter 2, he tells them not to worry that the ‘day of the Lord’ had already come because it would not happen yet because the man of sin had not been revealed. The idea that certain signs will be fulfilled before Jesus comes back is a theme in Jesus’ sayings on the topic and in Paul’s writings.
The author in the article lists differnces between the rapture and Jesus’ second coming in a chart. That chart doesn’t hold water i you don’t just assume the pre-trib position in the first place.
He does admit that II Thes. 1 does seem to support the rapture and the second coming happening right together at the end. I don’t see any reason from the rest of scripture or he epistle for his idea of seeing the Lord’s return as a series of events that take a number of years. Why would we assume tat unless there is some actual scripturehat teaches pre-trib? Why stretch ad squeeze scriptures to support that theory in the first place if there isn’t some real clear scripture that teaches it?
John Kissinger [10/29/2015 5:36 PM]
well Link there’s literal and there’s literal – Charles literally believes the tribulation already passed and Christ returned in 70 AD
Charles Page [10/29/2015 5:53 PM]
I believe all the prophecies from the OT have been fulfilled. What does that make me?
Stan Wayne [10/29/2015 6:15 PM]
Charles it makes you allegorical :
“And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplication; and they shall look unto me whom they have pierced; and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his first-born. In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.” Zechariah 12:10-11 ASV
Charles Page [10/29/2015 6:36 PM]
all along I thought I was full preterist!
John Kissinger [10/29/2015 6:47 PM]
believing OT prophecies makes you an old timer #OT Timothy
Stan Wayne [10/29/2015 9:45 PM]
Preterism is the belief that people talk about the past in future tense. Allegorical to the max.
Link Hudson [10/29/2015 10:10 PM]
Charles Page, do you believe that resurrection of the dead has already taken place?
Charles Page [10/29/2015 10:28 PM]
Link, I know a lot about some things but on this I am weak. I have some thoughts that bring me to conclusions.
The dead rose during the crucifixion of Christ and were seen about Jerusalem. These were the first-fruits of resurrection. There was a resurrection of the believing remnant of the Jews. The two men in white apparel were men not angels and two prophets were walking the streets of Jerusalem, prophesying for three days.
When Jesus ascended this remnant joined with him, in bodily form as Jesus was. They returned with Christ to defeat the anti-Christ and they sit as the great cloud of witnesses. This was accomplished in 70 AD
Did all the resurrected dead return to their graves after the crucifixion?
Charles Page [10/29/2015 10:44 PM]
The only thing to take place is the final resurrection and the melting with fervent heat.