theology February 4, 2018 Pre-wrath rapture? It’s basically, just another fake-news theology Troy Day | PentecostalTheology.com Pre-wrath rapture? It’s basically, just another fake-news theology basicallyfakenewsprewrathrapturetheology PentecostalTheology .com Previous articleLANGUAGE OF THE NEW TESTAMENT KOINE GREEK Next articleWhen you go to church, what is your preference? 162 Comments Reply December 3, 2017 Varnel Watson The person who conceived the “Pre-Wrath” view of the Rapture was a man named Robert Van Kampen (1938-1999). Van Kampen became one of America’s richest men through his involvement in investment banking. During his lifetime he accumulated one of the largest private collections of rare and antique Bibles in North America. In the 1970’s Van Kampen began developing the “Pre- Wrath” concept of the timing of the Rapture. Once he had completed his work on the concept, he started trying to find a well known person in the field of Bible prophecy to endorse his new view. That person finally turned out to be Marvin Rosenthal I object to the 3/4 Trib Rapture because it violates the chronology of the book of Revelation. The sequence of events that is pictured in the book of Revelation clearly places both the Seal Judgments and the Trumpet Judgments in the first half of the 70th Week of Daniel. And the Bowl Judgments are clearly contained within Daniel’s 70th Week, near its end. The 3/4 Trib view scrambles all this. The Seal Judgments are continued over into the second half of the 7 year period, the Trumpet Judgments are moved from the first half to the end of the second half, an Reply December 3, 2017 Derrick Harmon It’s one interpretation among all the others . . . not “fake” as much as an attempt to understand what the Bible says. Now, there are a lot of preachers in the ilk of Jack Van Impe, Irvin Baxter, Perry Stone, etc. that have made mega ministries out of their prognostications. Mostly fake. Reply December 3, 2017 Varnel Watson Another strong objection to the 3/4 Trib Rapture view is its mistaken concept of the sovereignty of God. The view attempts to distinguish the wrath of Man and Satan from the wrath of God. Both Man and Satan operate under the sovereignty of God. That’s why Psalm 2 pictures God sitting in Heaven laughing at the evil plots of the world’s political leaders. His laughing is not motivated by a lack of concern. He laughs because He has the wisdom and power to orchestrate all the evil of Man and Satan to the triumph of His Son. Reply December 3, 2017 Derrick Harmon Scriptures like Rev. 12:11 (they loved not their lives unto the death) and 13:7 (and it was given unto him to make war with he saints, and to overcome them) are pretty clear that the saints will not disappear in the mid-air before the tribulation comes. Pre-Trib would argue that these are post-rapture saints that lose their lives and their own blood gets them to heaven. I flat out reject this since it does not follow the thesis of Revelation that the saints were made overcomers (not by their own blood) by the Blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony in that blood. Reply December 3, 2017 Terry Wiles We will see. Time will tell. Reply December 3, 2017 Katelyn West I think at the end of the day, it doesn’t really matter. Be prepared, get your heart right, and keep making disciples. Neither belief is going to help nor hurt you, and neither belief is going to keep you in or out of heaven. Just be prepared. We are not meant to understand and know everything that God does. If we could understand all of God in all his fullness, power and knowledge, it would be too much for us. We spend so much time trying to decipher the end times and I think it can quickly take away from our current mission on earth, which is making disciples and gaining souls in the kingdom! Reply December 3, 2017 Varnel Watson Another error of the Pre-Wrath view is in purporting that the first part of the seven year Tribulation, the Seal Judgments, are not the wrath of God, but the wrath of “man” which means Satan and the Antichrist. Further the Pre-Wrath view concludes that the seal judgments are a time of peace on earth. However, this view ignores a vital truth clearly stated in Revelation 5:12 and 6:1f. These verse plainly state that at the beginning of the seven year Tribulation the wrath and judgment of God begins with the opening of the Seal Judgments by Jesus Christ (the Lamb of Rev. 5:12, 6:16). The Pre-Wrath view says that the beginning of the Tribulation is not the wrath of God, but rather of man, or of the Antichrist and Satan. However, Revelation 5:3 states, “And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.” The opening of the book begins the seven year Tribulation. What is about to unfold is plainly not the work of any man, but of the Messiah, the work of “the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David.” Reply December 3, 2017 Michael Green Why would God punish the rightous with the wicked. Did he not deliver Isreal before He destroyed Pharoah and his soldiers? Reply December 3, 2017 Varnel Watson Michael Green You are correct Another problem of the Pre-Wrath view at noted above is that Revelation 6:9-10 shows that part of these saints are in heaven the rest on earth. If the Pre-Wrath view is correct this would mean believers who were alive at the Rapture and had not been martyred would still be on earth and would have to go through the sixth seal judgment and its devastating events. 1 Thessalonians 4:17 plainly refutes this idea as being false. Reply December 3, 2017 Varnel Watson Furthermore, the Pre-Wrath view states that the reason for believers going through part of the Tribulation is that “the church” needs to go through a period of cleansing before the rapture. The period of persecution, according to the Pre-Wrath view, is necessary to return “the church” to serving the Lord and purging it of sin. The problem with this idea is brought into the light by the question, “What about all the Christians saved in the past 2000 years who have died and are with the Lord?” Why should a handful, in comparison to all the believers who have lived since Pentecost, have endure this supposed cleansing? Where in the New Testament does God state that He will purge “the church” of sin before believers are raptured? How would this cleansing effect believers who have died and are with the Lord. It is believers that sin and God says all in Christ are forgiven all their sins. Where then is the supposed need of a cleansing before the rapture? Reply December 3, 2017 Don Watson Please define what you mean by “Pre Wrath” position. Do you mean Pretribulation Rapture, or something else? DEW Reply December 3, 2017 Varnel Watson The truth is that Pre-Wrath View also known as 3/4-trib rapture is the invented view which was first taught by Robert Van Kampen in the 1970’s. After Van Kampen his new view point of the rapture he looked for several years to find some well know advocate to make his view popular. He was one of the most wealthy men in America and had the funds to postulate his views. He found that advocate in Marvin J. Rosenthal, who at that time was with the “Friends of Israel” and in early 1990s he published a book titled “The Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church” which popularized the Pre-Wrath Rapture view. So historically, the PreWrath view is only a decade and a half old. Reply December 3, 2017 Don Watson Sincere (and insincere) people have advocated a variety of positions. However, our Lord did say to be ready, for “in such an hour, the Son of Man is Coming.” I want to be ready when He comes! DEW Reply December 3, 2017 Varnel Watson Next we can expect someone to come up with 5/8-trib rapture The Pre-Wrath people may counter by saying “the church” has gone into apostasy and in the first 3 ½ years of the Tribulation it will be purged and cleansed through persecution. Problem with that conclusion is that false doctrine has always, through the past two thousand years plagued churches, and false religion will continue to flourish in the first half of the Tribulation with the Antichrist and the false prophet joining all the religions of the world in to a one world church. The false “Christian” churches will certainly go into the Tribulation as will the cults. Nothing in God’s word says there will be a purifying of “the church” before the rapture can occur. The rapture itself is the purifying of believers as they are resurrected to immortality and incorruption. (1 Cor. 15:53) Reply December 3, 2017 Diana Kay Miller Sheek Pre-Wrath Rapture is real, The Church will escape these things because the Lord won’t suffer His children to wrath. Wrath is for disobedience and Christians don’t disobey. Satan’s wrath will be upon the Jews the first 3 1/2 years of tribulation because they realize he is not the true Messiah. Then God’s wrath is on the rest of the world, ending with his judgement on all who rejected Him before the Rapture. No where in the book of Revelation does it say that anyone repented of their sins when all these things came upon them. The Jews have always been God’s chosen people and although they rejected Jesus Christ, they still belonged to God and he will keep his promise to them and deliver them from Satan. If you read Chapter 7 of Revelation you will see that after the 12 tribes of Israel are sealed, we, the Church is already around the throne. So we are not here during the wrath of Satan or of God. Reply December 3, 2017 Angel Bonilla The essential and fundamental doctrine is that Jesus Christ will come again at the end of times to save his people, jugde the world and to bring the fullness of the kingdom. All branches of the Christian Church agree on that. There are different opinions regarding the chronology of events but that is secondary. Come, Lord Jesus.. Reply December 3, 2017 Varnel Watson Dont miss the rapture That;s all Im saying Reply December 3, 2017 Timothy Staggs I always wondered why Paul would mention mid tribulation stuff to the Thessalonians after they asked him about the coming of Christ. Why not just say before the bad stuff happens we will be raptured so don’t worry about the abomination of desolation Reply December 3, 2017 Varnel Watson Danny Lirette The Syriac text you speak of discusses the Islamic slaughter of Christians by Muhammed and is thus later than 700 AD and has nothing to do with what I mentioned above Reply December 3, 2017 Gregg Huestis I personally don’t care when it is…I just care about being ready along with as many others AS POSSIBLE! I can see us possibly going through some persecution BEFORE the Catching Away A.K.A. the Rapture. But, I do not know with 100% certainty when these things will take place either! The most important thing is being ready and to bring as many others along with this as possible!!! Reply December 3, 2017 Gregg Huestis Troy, when you Say prewrath rapture I’m assuming that you’re talking about a rapture that happens towards the middle or end of the actual tribulation? Is this what you’re saying? Do you subscribe to the pretribulation rapture what is your thought on that subject? Reply December 3, 2017 Louise Cummings Amen. Reply December 3, 2017 Andrew T. Stube Only the fire will try us and prove our worth. Reply December 3, 2017 Jerome Herrick Weymouth You forgot the pan tribulation Theory! Which basically interpreted is “With God everything will pan out alright!!!” Reply December 3, 2017 Gene Brown Amen Reply February 4, 2018 Varnel Watson Stop the #fake-news Make Theology great again! Reply October 16, 2018 Varnel Watson looks like a major division in the pos-trib camp and rightfully so When one pseudo-theology like pre-wrath is bad and unBiblical many others spring out of it Reply October 19, 2018 Gary Micheal Epping I would not call pre-wrath fake news, but a misapplication of an important scripture in Revelation. In REV 6::12 it says, “And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; (13) And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.” Pre-wrathers try to say that this is the same description as in MAT 24, ” “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.” Then they jump to the conclusion that the rapture and resurrection must occur after the 6th seal, which is about midtrib.. BUT, they fail to to note that MAT 24:19 says ‘after the tribulation’ not after the midtribulation. Also, The fact that the elect are mentioned during the 7 trumpets that follows pokes many hole in this theory. Also Revelation mentions many cosmic disturbances during the tribulation, not just in REV 6:12, and it does not say anything about the coming of Jesus. I agree that it is a bad theology with little scripture to support it. Reply October 20, 2018 Varnel Watson Thats 1 basket I put no eggs in Considering no one believed it for over 2,000 yrs AND that it was basically man made with virtually no Biblical support for such 3/4 separation of the church Reply October 16, 2018 Link Hudson The rapture occurs at the parousia. Reply October 16, 2018 Varnel Watson YES – some left behind indeed may be raptured then but they will just jump in a blink of an eye and land on earth back again. Now with this parousia you speak of be pre-wrath or after the wrath? Reply October 16, 2018 Link Hudson Troy Day I do not see evidence for more than one second coming in the Bible. The burden of proof is on those who believe in more than one parousia after Christ’s ascension. In Matthew 24 the parousia is set to occur after the tribulation. Reply October 16, 2018 Link Hudson Troy Day I Thes. 5 rapture occurs at the parousia. Do you plan to go up in that one? Where do you get the idea that there is more than one? Reply October 16, 2018 Gary Micheal Epping Troy Day There is a reason for all of the saints to be either raptured or resurrected at the end of the Tribulation, only to return to earth. The first is so that they can receive their new immortal bodies. The second is so that God’s raptured elect can be separated from unbelievers left on the earth, just prior to Jesus’ return to wipe out the rest of humanity with his sharp sword and defeat evil, thus establishing His reign of justice and peace. There is no need to sit in heaven and wait for seven years. Reply October 16, 2018 Varnel Watson That reasoning is very shallow and not Biblical IMP BTW Link Hudson what does your line of questioning have to do with pre-wrath from OP? Are you a pre-wrath expert now? Did you mean 1 Thes 4 or 5 rapture too? Reply October 16, 2018 Gary Micheal Epping Troy Day ShaIlow? According to receiving a new immortal body or being separated from the wicked on the earth? When the rapture occurs “Immediately after the tribulation of those days” (MAT 24:29-31), then how else would you see it happening differently? Reply October 16, 2018 Link Hudson Troy Day If the parousia happens ‘immediately after the tribulation of those days’ in Matthew 24–how does the theory that it is a kind of state or long time period, proposed in one of the B-Greek discusions you linked to– help the pre-trib theory. The ‘state’ would begin after the tribulation if that were the case. Reply October 16, 2018 Link Hudson Troy Day I did not see much in that meme-style post or the links to respond to. Do you want people responding on the forum or not? I doubt you will get that many ‘pre-wrath experts’. Reply October 16, 2018 Varnel Watson I am not sure which side of pre-wrath are you on Reply October 16, 2018 Gary Micheal Epping Actually, the statement “Immediately after the tribulation of those days” eliminates both the pretrib and pre -wrath arguments. Reply October 16, 2018 Varnel Watson I see your point but not too sure about the pre -wrath argument a Ricky Grimsley has explained it Reply October 16, 2018 Gary Micheal Epping Troy Day I am always willing to listen. The problem both here and on other sites, is that people debate according to a particular theological doctrine, and never budge an inch with no body learning something new. I have found the best way to learn is to set the theologies aside and take a fresh look at what the bible is saying according to the prompting of the Holy Spirit. I have studied the endtimes this way twice so far, and am willing to do it again. Reply October 16, 2018 Ricky Grimsley Just because the word “tribulation” is used….doesn’t mean it’s talking about the whole tribulation or even THE tribulation. You guy just read in to the text pretrib because you blinders on. Otherwise what did Jesus mean here? John 16:33 KJVS  These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world. Reply October 16, 2018 Link Hudson Ricky Grimsley Read Matthew 24. This is the very passage the term ‘the great tribulation’ comes from. Jesus said, “For then shall be great tribulation…” and “after the tribulation of those days”. Reply October 16, 2018 Louise Cummings Link Hudson there will be only one Second Come. Because He is not coming to earth when the Raptured appears. I read all of 1st Thessalonians 5: and didn’t find a thing to back up what you are talking about. But back yourself back to chapter 4:13. Read the rest of that chapter. It’s as plain as a nose on your face. If you can’t see that’s the Rapture. I love you in the Lord. But if you can’t that’s the Rapture. And 1 Corinthians I think 51:52. Anyway you know where I’m talking about. If you don’t understand thank that. Sometimes I think you just have your mind made up and don’t want to Amit it. I know I shouldn’t be talking to someone who holds positions and under probably Knows Hebrew and Greek. I should be giving honor. But I can’t believe a person as intelligent as you can’t understand these Scriptures. I’m sorry. I find mean to speak when I should be listening. But I really want you and all these others to understand. It’s needful you know. I don’t want you going through the Tribulations. Reply October 16, 2018 Ricky Grimsley Link Hudson I think the difference between what I believe and what you believe is I see the “coming” as a period of time. His coming starts with the rapture and continues until all is fulfilled. Reply October 16, 2018 Gary Micheal Epping Ricky Grimsley This chapter begins in verse 3 with the “disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?” The rest is an answer to their question by Jesus. You say, ‘doesn’t mean it’s talking about the whole tribulation or even THE tribulation.’ I must be missing something, as I know of no other Tribulation that comes at “the end of the age.” Reply October 16, 2018 Link Hudson Louise Cummings I certainly see that I Thessalonians 4 is about the rapture. But verse 15 tells us that the rapture occurs at the coming of the Lord Jesus. It does not say that it occurs 7 years before the second coming. I was taught to wear the pre-trib glasses. It seems like pre-tribbers read passages like I Thessalonians 4 with their pre-trib glasses on. They assume the rapture is happening before Jesus comes back because the preacher said it. But they can’t show any scripture that teaches that– except now there are people saying the ‘apostasia’ refers to the rapture. If you don’t take that leap, where do you get the idea of a pre-trib rapture? It’s built on taking a verse about God not appointing Christians unto wrath to mean they don’t go through tough times during the rapture. One of the problems with pre-trib is that a straightforward, plain reading of Paul’s writings is that there is one ‘parousia’– the coming of the Lord. At the parousia, the rapture takes place (I Thes. 4:15) and the man of sin is destroyed (II Thess. 4:15.) The pre-trib theory separates these two occurances by 7 years– the rapture at the beginning of the 7 years, and the man of sin being destroyed at the end of it. Pre-trib has to resort to strange allegorical interpretations– interpreting John being told ‘Come up hither’ to be an allegory for the church going through a pre-trib rapture. How can II Thessalonians 1 be reconciled with a pre-trib rapture. Jesus returns. The church is still here. When He comes to be glorified in the saints, He executes vengence on them that believe not. It is all treated as one event, and the church is still here when He gets here, so why wouldn’t those saints in Revelation throughout the tribulation be Christians. Reply October 16, 2018 Ricky Grimsley The whole thing is about the end of the age but Jesus only comes once. The comment about tribulation is to point out that there are several tribulations just like several wraths. Reply October 16, 2018 Louise Cummings The Rapture will go on in Heaven, with the Lord. While the seven year Tribulations is going on. Then that’s when Jesus will appear in Heaven sitting on a white horse. Coming back to earth again with all the Saints Of God following Him on White horses. How could we come back with Him back to Earth again. If we wasn’t Raptured first. And the devil will bound a thousand years, and there will be peace on earth for that thousand years. And Satan will be loosed a little season. To try to get those that were born during the thousand years , to follow him but to no avail. Then Revelations 20:5. Says. But the rest of the dead ( that’s the sinners that didn’t rise at the Rapture. Only Christians will rise then. But the rest of the dead will rise. And they will be judged at the white throne of Judgment. And them and Satan and the false prophet all whose names are not written in the Lanbs book of Life. All will be cast together into the lake of fire. That will be the last of Satan and the lost. My heart hurts for them. How I wish they would change their life. And give it to God. Reply October 16, 2018 Ricky Grimsley Nope Reply October 16, 2018 Gary Micheal Epping There is another point in MAT 24:29-31 that shows the rapture is at the end of the Tribulation and not at the beginning. In verse 31 it says, “And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His [d]elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” If the rapture was pretrib, then all the saints would have already come down with Jesus from heaven, and there would be no more to come “from one end of heaven to the other while Jesus is on the clouds.” Rather the rapture and resurrection occurs in these passages at the end. The saints who are alive are gathered ‘from the four wind,’ which is from the earth. All the dead saints are resurrected “from one end of heaven to the other.” Reply October 16, 2018 Louise Cummings The reason I say we will be in Heaven seven years before Jesus comes back to earth. Is because the Tribulations will last seven years. It’s called Jacobs trouble. At then end of the Tribulations. Is when the Lord is coming back to earth. And Jesus told His disciples. If I go away I will come back and get you. That where I Am you shall be also. So if Jesus is Coming back at the end of the Tribulations. And where ever His Disciples wil be with Him. We will be too. That is why I said seven years. Is because the Tribulations will last seven years. And we will be with Him. I just assume it will be seven years in Heaven. Who knows Jesus might take us to al the beautiful galaxies. And show us all the things scientists is trying to find out. He might take us to all those places. Because I believe this is called The Marriage Supper Of The Lamb. I think this is when He calls us the Wedding Bride. Some says the Marriage Supper will be in Heaven. Some says it will be on earth. After He makes it a New Heaven and a New Earth. And New Jerusalem will come Down from Heaven To Earth. Some thinks that’s when it will be. Buying just assuming it will be in Heaven seven years. If the Tribulations , will be seven years. Then He will come back to earth the Second Coming. Bringing us behind Him. Reply October 17, 2018 Louise Cummings Gary Micheal Epping Have you not read this is talking about the Jews. The Jews were called the Elect. The Christians are called Elect also. But here it makes it clear He is talking about the Jews. Remember how God promised the land to Abraham at first. As far as he could walk and see the land would belong to the Jews. They keep trying to take their land. And you know the story how the Lord told Moses to led them to Canaan Land. Of course Joshua led them across Jordan into Jericho first place. And each one of the Tribes of Israel God assigned them what their part would be. The Land is Now Israel. Jesus chose that land to be His. And the Jews His chosen people because they were the Land that first believed in Him. But when He came as a baby and didn’t believe in Him. God scattered them all over the world. Ha said I will bring you back to your home land in the end times. They were scattered because of sin. Well you read it in Revelation I’m pretty sure. That 144,000 would be sealed that they couldn’t be hurt.He is talking about the antichrist will be on the scene at this time trying to Conner Israel. Because almost all nations has hated the Jews. Because they didn’t believe Jesus Christ was The Son of God. The number I gave you will be sealed in the Tribulations that they won’t be hurt. And the Lord told them in Matthew 24: if you are on the house tops don’t come down to get anything. Just flee to the Mountains. For safety form the antichrist. They are all going to know by now. They was deceived. And Jesus was The Son Of God. And God will help them. But there are Jews are still scattered all over the world. That’s who the angel is calling to come back to Israel.why is Jesus coming back to the earth for anyway. It’s For His People. Jesus was a Jew. His Mother was a Jew. His earthly father was a Jew. But Joseph wasn’t His Father. God was His Father. And Jesus is Coming back to earth to fight the final war with false prophets and some that has the mark in his hand or his forehead. He’s Coming back to earth to fight for a land where He Was Born. And His people that was deceived. Some will die. A lot of Jews will live. Because of hiding. A lot of gentiles will give their life to keep from taking the mark. But that is the Jews He is talking about. That didn’t take the mark. He’s coming to final war. With all nations will be He there to fight the last war. And with the devil. Any He won’t be going back up. He will rule here for a thousand years. Reply October 17, 2018 Louise Cummings I tried to answer your call. I can’t figure it out how. My phone stopped writing for a long time. I tried to get it to work and it wouldn’t. Reply October 16, 2018 Louise Cummings Amen. Because Christians are not appointed to wrath. Reply October 17, 2018 Varnel Watson Ricky Grimsley Link Hudson took an ol grandma 3 sec and 1 sentence to completely dismantle ya’lls end time frontology 🙂 Reply October 17, 2018 Link Hudson Troy Day Christains are not appointed unto God’s wrath. That does not mean we can”t experience Satan’s wrath, the wrath of the beast or the wrath of other men. If a missionary experienced the wrath of ISISand got gis head cut off cor preaching the gospel would you say he was not a true Christian because Christians are not appointed unto wrath? Would you say the tribulational saints are apppointed unto God’s wrath? Reply October 17, 2018 Varnel Watson God’s wrath is during the tribulation No way around it 🙂 Reply October 17, 2018 Link Hudson Troy Day Roman’s 5:9 teaches that believers are saved from wrath through Jesus’ blood. Paul also suggests there are vessels of wrath fitted to destruction. God’s wrath is against the xhildren of disobedience. “Wrath” is not a time pwrieod we live in. Websters defines wrath as “stong, vengeful anger or indignation.” If the tribulational saints are reconciled the God, they are not under His wrath. God’s wrath is against the children of disobedience, not the saints who live in the tribulation. Don’t you agree. Those saints overcome the devil. They are not depicted as second rate Christians who did not make the first cut Reply October 17, 2018 Link Hudson Troy Day btw I can see my point about missionaries and ISIS was so on point that you chose to dodge it. Reply October 17, 2018 Ricky Grimsley Example? Revelation 16:1 KJVS  And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth. Reply October 17, 2018 Ricky Grimsley The seals aren’t the wrath Reply October 17, 2018 Louise Cummings The Bible speaks of people that steps out for the cause of the Lord. Even some cast in prison for the cause of the Lord. For us to be faithful , even unto death and He(Jesus) will give us a crown of Life. Or the ones she suffers a.crown of life. We are not living in the time of wrath right now. But I feel it won’t be long. He also said , all that live Godly shall suffer percussion. The decouples all were percussion. They died for Him. John is the only one who died from old age. History bears out that Peter was Crucified upside down , because he said I’m not worthy to be crucified like my Lord. Don’t ever think that those that are on the battlefield for the Lord won’t have to suffer for Christ sake. But in the time of wrath , or when the Tribulations are coming. It will be more than just dying. It will be things that just the antichrist will do. But the sun will be scorching men with heat. A lot of things will be going on. The Bible says that it will be a time like has never been before. And will never be again. That’s the day of wrath. That’s the way I understand it. He says to us now in one place , talking about troubles. But it says the Lord will delivery’s out of them all.you have never seen a day like when the day of wrath comes. I hope you will never have to. Because the will take His Christians , the faithful ones anyway , the Lord will take out of here. Reply October 17, 2018 Louise Cummings Now some people might have to go through some wrath , Noe. But it’s because of rebellion. The Lord doesn’t want it to happen. But when they continually , disobeying God. Sometimes He Lets them have their way. And have to take what ever comes their way. Reply October 17, 2018 Gary Micheal Epping Troy Day God’s wrath then will be terrible but it is against unbelievers. Reply October 18, 2018 Gary Micheal Epping Troy Day God’s wrath are the bowls that are poured out, probably on the Day of the Lord at the end of the Tribulation, just after He has raptured and resurrected his saints to join Him on the clouds. When the last bowl is poured out, He will come down and destroy the entirety of mankind with his sharp sword. Reply October 18, 2018 Link Hudson Gary Micheal Epping So you take it as instantaneous, more or less, with the scond coming? Does that qualify as pre-wrath or post trib? Reply October 18, 2018 Gary Micheal Epping Link Hudson I was thinking out loud. The bowls seem to come quickly, so they could happen as the saints are with Jesus on the cloud. However, the full Day of the Lord would have to trace back to the 7th seal when the angels were given the seven trumpets, beginning around midtrib. This is when God intervenes with his wrath against the wicked. So, this would be posttrib. To be pre=wrath, both the trumpets and bowls would have to begin at the end of the tribulation. Reply October 23, 2018 Louise Cummings I’ll get to these as soon as possible. It been a few days I hadn’t had time. I’ll have to read up on the bowls Reply October 17, 2018 Louise Cummings All nations will be gathered the to to fight against The Lord when He comes down. He will fight for Israel , because they have Realized Who He is by now.and will turn to Him. But the antichrist and all nations will Fight against. But the Bible says He will it written on His Led. king of Kings and Lord Of Lords. Reply October 17, 2018 Varnel Watson Gary Micheal Epping I believe pre-wrath theory is just another modern day heresy I welcome everyone to believe whatever they want of course as long as is the Bible If people wanna stay behind and enjoy the Tribulation wrath of God along with this dead world so be it Dont know if Melvin Harter or Alan Smith would agree with that but so be it according to everyone’s faith As to OP I do not see how Link Hudson and Ricky Grimsley will combine their opposite ideas IMO pre-wrath being possible except if its supporters accept pre-Trib – it is the same time of thinking – escape from the wrath As for post-Trib there is a great chance its Calvinistic roots and very reform thinking could fit the more baptist background people who subscribe to those covenant theology ideas I for one do not subscribe to such #bapticostal theology and still stick for classical Pentecostalism I wouldn’t take nothing for my journey now, I’ve got to make it to Heaven somehow. Though the devil tempts and tries to turn me around – it will be virtually impossible for left-behind post-Tribbers to realize this till it hits them http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/they-knew-not-until-the-day/ Reply October 17, 2018 Link Hudson Troy Day I think of Teformed theology as being amil not post mil. Didn’t you point out that J Dwight Pentecost was a Presbyterian yesterday? That sounds pretty Reformed to me. Baptists tend to believe in pretrib too. Bible over Baptist theology. Why would Jesus ‘when ye shall see the abomination of desolation’ if His disciples will not see it? Reply October 17, 2018 Varnel Watson Yes Presbyterian yet pre-trib The man was Princeton conservative solid theologian I recommended it to you because you will see how you reformed baptist theology fits Reply October 17, 2018 Gary Micheal Epping So, let’s get it straight. Are you saying that Jesus is going to leave all of his born again saints behind that don’t believe in a pretrib rapture theology? Reply October 17, 2018 Varnel Watson That I do not know Good question for Jesus Reply October 17, 2018 Link Hudson Louise Cummings did not know I had clicked call. My messages said I had meissed a call from you. Reply October 17, 2018 Varnel Watson Link Hudson what point on ISIS dodging again? Pls repost here in away that we can actually see your point! Reply October 17, 2018 Link Hudson Troy Day not appointed unto wrath is about God’s wrath, not the wrath of Satan, the wrath of the beast or other human persecutors. The saints will go through difficulries during the tribulation. That does not make them objects of God’s wrath. Do you agree with me that the tribulational saints are not objects of God’s wrath? That is what the pretrib argument using ‘not appointed unto wrath inplues.’ Reply October 17, 2018 Varnel Watson what about ISIS again – I still dont get it ??? Reply October 17, 2018 Link Hudson Troy Day ISIS people who have wrath against Cheisrmtians may cit their heads off. If this happens to a Christian, is he ‘appointed unto wrath’ in the sense Paul uses that phrase? No. He is talking about God’s wrath. If the tribulational saints suffer that does not mean they are under God’s wrath. Reading Revelation, I just do not get why ptetribbers think the tribulational saints will be ‘appointed unto wrath.” Am I right that you believe that? Reply October 17, 2018 Varnel Watson Cheisrmtian? What bout Stalin? What about Nero? Isnt what you saying exactly reformed bapticostal theology? Luther and Calvin believed Islam to be the wrath of God and Turkey the antiChrist – oh well enough with that bapticostal mambo jambo Reply October 17, 2018 Link Hudson Troy Day your last post looked to me like mumbo jumbo. I totally do not get ypur point. Do you think the saints in the tribulational are ‘appointed unto wrath’? Pretrib is associated with Baptist. Reformed are traditionally more amil. Your labels do not make sense….again. And you have a doctorate in historical theology? There is a case for doctorate research not being an inch wide and a mile deep. Reply October 17, 2018 Varnel Watson Well may be you need to read some on the eschatology of the early Reformers It was indeed a mess. BTW what does the Catholic church believe – post-trib a-mil aint it? Reply October 17, 2018 Gary Micheal Epping Ricky Grimsley So is not the Day of the Lord a day? Reply October 17, 2018 Gary Micheal Epping Louise Cummings Yes, I agree it is ‘talking about the jews.’ But not the unbelieving OT Jews who were cut off, and remain cut off until the endtimes when their blinders are removed. The disciples were believing followers of Jesus, who were never cut off and remained a part of the elect, who were later joined by gentiles that chose to follow Jesus. The difference between OT jewish unbelievers and Messianic Jews is as different as night and day. The only OT Jews after the time of Jesus that will be grafted back in and rejoin the elect, are ones that accept Him as Lord and Savior. The endtime church will be comprised of both Jewish and Gentile believers. There is no dual covenant in place that allows unbelieving Jews to be saved and enter heaven without knowing Jesus. Reply October 17, 2018 Ricky Grimsley Two much happens for it to be just one day. Reply October 17, 2018 Ricky Grimsley It’s more like a season. Reply October 17, 2018 Gary Micheal Epping Ricky Grimsley I guess the NT writers were wrong and should have said the week of the Lord or season of the Lord. Reply October 17, 2018 Louise Cummings Link Hudson I’m sorry. We’ve i was trying to write. My phone kept messing up. I had to wait a long time before I could write again. While all that was going on , I could hear my chat chat phone ringing. I figured you must be trying to find out what was going on with my phone. I couldn’t ever get it to answer. I really don’t know how to do that phone. I’ve never tried to answer it but twice. It hadn’t worked either time. I don’t know who it was. I’m very sorry. I’ve got to quit figuring. Instead of thinking it’s something that it isn’t. I know you are suppose to be able to talk on them. But i have never figured it out. There I go figuring again. I thought someone might be trying to see what was going on with my phone. I guess I’ll just quit trying to answer that phone. I can’t get it to work. Sorry I just assumed it was you since I was trying to answer one of your Bible questions. Reply October 17, 2018 Ricky Grimsley Gary Micheal Epping no need to be snarky. How many examples would like of “day” in the Bible referring to more than one 24 hour period Reply October 17, 2018 Gary Micheal Epping Ricky Grimsley Sorry, didn’t mean to come across that way. A day can also mean a day. Out of curiosity, when do you see the day of the Lord beginning? Reply October 17, 2018 Ricky Grimsley I believe the “day of the lord” starts with rapture because Paul clearly defines for us in 1 Thessalonians 4and 5 that the day of the lord is the rapture and then in 2 Thessalonians he tells us that that day can’t come until the falling away and the man of sin be revealed. Reply October 17, 2018 Varnel Watson I still dont see how pre-wrath and post trib can be ever reconciled Link Hudson it’s a hard thing to do IMO Reply October 17, 2018 Louise Cummings Gary Micheal Epping the Day Of The Lord is in the end times. But we don’t know what time. It will start I think after the Rapture on the Church. Matthew 25:1 on through the chapter giving the ten virgins as an example. It was ten of them. Five were wise. And five were foolish. Five while waiting. They had to be ready at all times because they didn’t know when He would come for His Bride. So the five, that was wise. Carried oil in their lamps. And carried oil in another vessel as well. I believe the oil represented the Holy Spirit. But five just carried oil in their vessel, or lamp. But when the Groom announced His Coming. The wise got up and trimmed his lamp. And got it burning well. But the foolish. Their lamp had gone out. So while he had gone to buy more oil. The Bride Groom Came. The one that had oil went in with the Bridegroom , but when the other one got back , the BrideGroom had already gone in and the door was closed. When Jesus Comes for the Bride or the Church. You won’t have time to get ready then. Because the Dead in Christ will be raised first. He said if we are living when He comes. He said our bodies will be changed in a mo Ent in the Twinkling Of an eye. ( do you know how long it will take an eye to twinkle. Faster than batting the eye. A twinkle it comes and gone faster thank you can bat your. Eye). That’s how fast we will be gone. With the dead that has raised. We will all go up together to meet the Lord in the air. We just have to be ready at all times. But be looking for the peace treaty to be signed for Israel. Is one sign. Because the Bible says when they say peace and safety. sudden destruction The best thing. Is always be Hungary for God. The Bible says they shall be filled. Reply October 17, 2018 Gary Micheal Epping Louise Cummings Thanks for the information. We do know what signs accompany the Day of the Lord. “The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.” (Joel 2:31) “Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.” (Isaiah 13:9-10) “And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. (Rev 6:12-13) “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:” (Matthew 24:29) Reply October 18, 2018 Louise Cummings Is that how you really feel. What came along that you heard that made you come to that conclusion. You don’t need to budge an inch on Gods Word. The Lord, in the Old Testament. Opened up the ground and swallowed up a lot of people. Got fussing and gripping against what Moses was teaching. And grumbling against Moses. The ground opened up. And they went under. It’s not important because I said it. But it’s very important if God said it. And it should make you want to pray and ask God. Are they really right. If not show me the real truth. And you should ask God for a hunger for Him. And His Word. And would You give me understanding of Your Word. And you always have the opportunity to not read it. But I would be afraid to not try to understand. Use the plain Word Of God. It never changes. And is always right. Reply October 18, 2018 Gary Micheal Epping I agree that we should not budge on God’s Word, the bible. I was referring to theologies thought up by man. Often, we place those theologies on a higher plane that the Bible itself, and use those theologies to interpret what the bible says. How do we get at the truth if we can’t think outside the theological box? Does Finis Dake, Perry Stone, Scofield, MacArthur, and other dead theologians know more about what God has written than Troy Day, Link Hudson, you or me? I have come to a point where I like to use a bible with no commentary at the bottom, and seek the Holy Spirit to help with the interpretation. I like the questions you pose about reading the Bible. They are very good. What i am frustrated with is how do we get at the truth of the bible, if we only see things through theological sun glasses that color the truth. How does a good baptist find out the truth about the baptism in the Holy Ghost or speaking in tongues if he or she reads the Bible through SBC theology that says these things are ‘of the devil.’ How do we find the truth about the original creation of the heavens and earth? Apparently, not not arguing theologies like what happened in the debate with Peter Fiske. That was exhausting and frustrating, and I am not sure if we really got the sunglasses off or not. It is the same situation with the current debate of when the rapture occurs. The bible is undeniable true, but not all of these theological positions can be true. I guess what I am really concerned with is how does one let go of a wrong theology, when the person in the box thinks he or she is right. How do we think outside the box to find the unfiltered truth of God. It seems to me, the only way is to seek the Holy Ghost to help read read the bible, since He was the one that inspired the writers and translators. Reply October 18, 2018 Louise Cummings Always take the Bible. I can’t help what others teach or say. I have the written word of God. , no matter the demonation or what Theology says. If Theology doesn’t compare with the Bible. Then always go by the Bible. I never studied Theology. I wish I knew some things about it. But I don’t know it , because I never studied it to my knowledge. But I read from the Bible. If you don’t understand it. The Bible says ask God to give it to you. And He will give you understanding. Sometimes a good commentary. That you know that’s sound doctrine. Can help you get on the right path. If you don’t believe it’s the Word. Go back to the Word and read it again. And see if that helped you the correct understanding. Reply October 18, 2018 Louise Cummings The Bible says there will be false prophets, false teachings. That’s why it’s so important to know what is right. About the creation at the beginning of the Bible. God is all powerful, all knowing , and is everywhere at the same time. That’s Bible. The creation , God is so all knowing , that it is impossible for me to know all the things God Did. So take the part God gave you and believe it. Now there is mysteries in the Bible. When He tells us in His Word. Gods Words. Says there will be signs in the Heavens , moon, and stars, He doesn’t tell us what all they will be. But scientists is helping us to find out what a lot of them are. When we think one is found. We go to the Bible to see if it compares to anything in the Bible. I will tell you one. Then I have got to work a lot today. But in one of Perry Stones messages. He showed a picture of where Scientists had been way up high , Mars or somewhere , where Scientists go to study the world. They make pictures while they are up there. When they came down. They showed the pictures they took out in space. It showed a Cross ,and just down below a crown of thorns. Perry Stone some how took a picture of it and showed it in his message. You see God said there would be signs. Now you tell me , how could a sinner see that an not believe that Jesus is still showing signs, that Jesus really did die on a Cross with that Crown of thorns on His Head for our sins. That is just of many that Scientists have found. The Bible said if Jesus recorded all the Miracles He had done. The world itself could hold all of them. One of those things. Piped up on on my face book. I liked to have never got it off. It made it not shoe all I wrote. You might have to put your finger in the middle and roll it back to start. Reply October 18, 2018 Louise Cummings Well it worked when I finished. Thank the Lord. Reply October 18, 2018 Gary Micheal Epping Louise Cummings You are not at a disadvantage having not studied theology, maybe having an advantage by just listening to God. Reply October 19, 2018 Louise Cummings I haven’t. Even trying to ignore you I have been busy. And had a school program tonight at school. I had great grandchildren in the program. So I went to the school program of my grandchildren was in. The did a good. I don’t like it being about Halloween. I don’t care about my family being in Halloween programs. But it wasn’t so bad. I didn’t see them use witches and things like that. But some things just as bad. But if they are in a school progress. I try to go. But it seems like you have it worked out. I think you should examine everything by the Bible. The Word is always right. You never stop learning the Word ofGod. I’ve read things in the Bible. Get a good blessing from it. And read that very same Scripture again. And the Lord shoes me another great point from the same Scripture. Well if you have more questions maybe I can answer in a way it will bless you. Sorry I was so busy today I appreciate you wanting to know the correct answer. Sometimes it takes asking. If any thing else feel free to ask. If I don’t know the answer. We will pray and ask God to help us. Thank you for answering. Reply October 18, 2018 Varnel Watson Gary I can understand how you can see grandma as competing theologian She dismantled Links week long of arguments with one single sentence 🙂 Be like grandma! Be a competing theologian 🙂 Reply October 18, 2018 Link Hudson Troy Day hmmm. Not appointed unto wrarh doesnot dismantle pretrib.. I dismantled pretrib with a question: Why do you believe those tribulational saints, who overcameby the blood of theLamb and the word of their testimony, are appointed unto God’s wrath? Reply October 18, 2018 Varnel Watson After reading what you actually wrote I dont believe anyone believes what you believe them to believe A good start would be Rev 4 and what are those saints doing in heaven at that time? Reply October 18, 2018 Link Hudson Troy Day the Bible does not say who the elders are but Paul wrote of God having a purpose to display his wisdom to rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms. There are some nonhuman entities who may be important to God as well. According to Yahweh in Job 38:7 the sons of God rejoiced when he laid the foundation of rhe earth. I would not assume the presence of these elders John witnessed in the first century are evidence of a pretribulational rapture in our future. It is certainly not evident e to reject Paul’s teaching that the rapture occurs at the parousia. Reply October 18, 2018 Varnel Watson What are those elders doing there in heaven Revelation ch 4? What possible purpose could they serve? Reply October 18, 2018 Link Hudson Troy Day are we in agreement that veing a saint in the tribulation will not be evidence of being under God’s wrath? Reply October 18, 2018 Varnel Watson Why dont you just answer my question in a simple manner without a counter question? Reply October 18, 2018 Link Hudson Troy Day the eldes worship God and cast down their crowns. Why do you dodge questions about very clear statements of Paul e.g regarding the man of sins desteuction at the parousia (II The. 2:8) and the rapture occurring at the parousia (I Thes. 1:15) and try to make loose allegorical arguments out of interpretations of apocalyptic literature? Reply October 18, 2018 Link Hudson Troy Day that was my response to a previous point. You are the one who dodges questions as you just did. Will tribulational saints be appointed to God’s wrath? Reply October 18, 2018 Varnel Watson I dont judge questions I have noticed in most calvinist forums when they cant answer my simple question they would counter with another irrelevant question What are those elders doing there in heaven Revelation ch 4? What possible purpose could they serve there after the rapture? Reply October 18, 2018 Link Hudson Troy Day where do you get the elders are there after the raptire. Your question makes no sense. Reply October 18, 2018 Varnel Watson Since you are not responding about WHO are the 24 elders as connected to the 12 pearly Gates and WHAT are they doing in heaven, I will allow others to jump in and respond accordingly in due time It is not a hard question Reply October 18, 2018 Gary Micheal Epping Link Hudson Exactly. It does not say the elders are there in an immortal body, which would be the case if the rapture had already occurred. This would be the spirits of those elders who had died and were waiting for the rapture, similar to the martyrs under the throne in REV 6:9. Those martyrs ask in verse 10 ““How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” They were answered in verse 11, “it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.” There were spirits still coming up from saints dying in the tribulation, which shows the rapture is yet to come. Reply October 18, 2018 Link Hudson Troy Day Why would I speculate about such things. Show me in the Bible who the elders, the connection to the 12 pearly gates, and why they were in heaven? Reply October 18, 2018 Varnel Watson My initial comment was to Gary. I am not sure what you are saying or trying to do anymore with the treads Reply October 18, 2018 Varnel Watson Actually if you keep on reading Gary Micheal Epping you will see their precise description as the Bible tells us about their bodies. Hence I already asked the Rev 4:3 question here https://www.facebook.com/groups/pentecostaltheologygroup/permalink/1913414682046871/ Reply October 18, 2018 Link Hudson Troy Day Why don’t you quote the relavent segment. You seem to have a habit of posting things which, after we read, we have difficulty determining the relavence. Reply October 18, 2018 Varnel Watson Relevant segment was quoted a NUMBER of times since yesterday for you I dont mind asking the question you seem to have difficulty answering again: My question is: IASPIDI KAI SARDIWi being datives, they shouldn’t be considered as epexegetical (which would imply genitives, i.e., LIQWi IASPIDOS KAI SARDIOU). BDAG does not list them has adjectives (“jasper stones”). Should they be taken, then, as appositional? In that case, the sentence could be Englished in the following way:”And he who was seated was similar, as to his appearence, to a stone, [i.e.] to Jasper and cornelian” Reply October 18, 2018 Link Hudson Troy Day Also, I think, how does this change our understanding or interpretation of the passage? And how many people in here can follow this conversation? And I think, is this an attempt to show off knowledge of Greek? Reply October 18, 2018 Varnel Watson Nope, I am just asking a very simple question. Do you need me to ask it again so you can finally answer it ? Reply October 18, 2018 Link Hudson Troy Day I do not care to discuss the issue. I’d have to do research where energy could be spent more efficiently elsewhere. I was responding to other questions you asked in the thread. You hijacked your own thread. 🙂 Reply October 18, 2018 Varnel Watson OK why you keep on tagging me without answering my question? This is considered avoiding the question right? I’ve pointed you to the needed research already 🙂 Reply October 18, 2018 Gary Micheal Epping Troy Day So, I guess if we listen to the Holy Ghost when reading the bible, we become competing theologians if we tell someone else what we think. Reply October 18, 2018 Gary Micheal Epping Troy Day You say, ‘I wouldn’t take nothing for my journey now, I’ve got to make it to Heaven somehow. Though the devil tempts and tries to turn me around.’ I think the Tribulation will need you to evangelize and win the lost, rather than watching from off a cloud in a lounge chair drinking iced tea. Better said, ‘I would like take my journey right now, but I know I’ll make it later somehow. Got to bust the devil’s rump and turn him around.’ Reply October 19, 2018 Gary Micheal Epping Troy Day I don’t find a ‘precise description of their bodies,’ other than they are clothed in white robes. The robes would be no different than the one on the martyrs in ch 7, “They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands”. When John asks who they are, he is told, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb” (verse 14). Nothing to do with immortal bodies, but clothing for a spirit waiting for the resurrection. Reply October 19, 2018 Varnel Watson Gary Micheal Epping My question was about IASPIDI KAI SARDIWi being datives, they shouldn’t be considered as epexegetical (which would imply genitives, i.e., LIQWi IASPIDOS KAI SARDIOU). BDAG does not list them has adjectives (“jasper stones”). Should they be taken, then, as appositional? In that case, the sentence could be Englished in the following way:”And he who was seated was similar, as to his appearence, to a stone, [i.e.] to Jasper and cornelian” Your thoughts? Reply October 19, 2018 Varnel Watson The person who conceived the “Pre-Wrath” view of the Rapture was a man named Robert Van Kampen (1938-1999). Van Kampen became one of America’s richest men through his involvement in investment banking. During his lifetime he accumulated one of the largest private collections of rare and antique Bibles in North America. In the 1970’s Van Kampen began developing the “Pre- Wrath” concept of the timing of the Rapture. Once he had completed his work on the concept, he started trying to find a well known person in the field of Bible prophecy to endorse his new view. That person finally turned out to be Marvin Rosenthal I object to the 3/4 Trib Rapture because it violates the chronology of the book of Revelation. The sequence of events that is pictured in the book of Revelation clearly places both the Seal Judgments and the Trumpet Judgments in the first half of the 70th Week of Daniel. And the Bowl Judgments are clearly contained within Daniel’s 70th Week, near its end. The 3/4 Trib view scrambles all this. The Seal Judgments are continued over into the second half of the 7 year period, the Trumpet Judgments are moved from the first half to the end of the second half, etc Reply October 19, 2018 Louise Cummings I had never heard of that before. I don’t know what he means partial Rapture 3/4 I have never heard anything like that. It just came to me yesterday about the wrath the Bible was speaking of , I believe was talking about the Tribulation wrath. Because I was thinking of the Scripture , where it said. All who live Godly in ChristJesus, shall suffer percussion. That’s why I thought about that. Thanks for telling us about that Bible. I wonder if anyone veered believed in it. Or was it pretty much like other Bibles. Reply October 19, 2018 Varnel Watson yes 3/4 rapture is truly unheard of Ricky Grimsley Reply October 19, 2018 Gary Micheal Epping Troy Day Concerning the 24 elders, they could not be part of the rapture and resurrection, or the throne room would be full of all the glorified saints brought up. It can’t be 12 OT elders for the 12 tribes, and 12 NT elders for the apostles. No OT elder has earned a reward for a crown in the service of Jesus Christ. Also, John is still alive and watching, so it is not the 12 apostles. The only resurrection other than the one with the rapture and the one at the white throne judgement is the glorified saints who were raised in the “first of the firstfruits” resurrection of the Messiah (MAT 27:50-53). Being raised at the time of the resurrection of Jesus, they were the first to follow him up to heaven. Why 24? You notice they were worshipping the Lord around the throne. The 24 comes from the Old Testament where David arranged the priesthood into 24 courses that covered temple worship services throughout the year. So you see, the number 24 comes from a precedent for organized human worship of Yehovah God. To have 24 elder men found in the throne room worshiping God makes sense. Reply October 19, 2018 Varnel Watson and yet there they are already in the Heavens… Reply October 23, 2018 Varnel Watson There is absolutely no Scripture proof that the rapture occurs at the parousia. While the terminology Link presents as heard from the “Pentecostal” churches he attended, the sequence he has presented is Biblically wrong and frankly quite misleading from the point of Pentecostal eschatology Reply October 23, 2018 Link Hudson Troy Day Here is the proof, capitals added for emphasis 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the COMING of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be CAUGHT UP together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words Verse 15 tells us this is about the parousia. He writes of those who are alive and remain unto the parousia of the Lord. Here is verse 15 in Greek: Τοῦτο γὰρ ὑμῖν λέγομεν ἐν λόγῳ Κυρίου, ὅτι ἡμεῖς οἱ ζῶντες οἱ περιλειπόμενοι εἰς τὴν παρουσίαν τοῦ Κυρίου οὐ μὴ φθάσωμεν τοὺς κοιμηθέντας· See the word παρουσίαν. parousian Reply October 23, 2018 Louise Cummings Well I can’t read Greek. But thank the Lord I can read Gods Word. I don’t know what the Greek was saying. Gods Word. That I have read to you along with Second Thessalonians four. Now don’t tell me that you believe the Greek tells you something that the Pure Word Of God says. It might take you more in depth of explaining it. History tell us that a lot of the men of God. Or they might not even been Christians. But history tells us if they got one Word wrong. They would have to start over translating it into our language, where we could read it. I have heard they they hand to change pins after every Word. Or at least wash the pin after every three letters after using it. The Word Of God is that sacred. And some they killed if caught translating The Word. They gave their life where we all could understand The Word. That’s the reason I use KJV. I heard his more exact than some others. So tell me what the Greek says in English. Reply October 23, 2018 Terry Wiles I’m ready today. Reply October 23, 2018 Varnel Watson I was born again ready Reply October 24, 2018 Louise Cummings Read some more. I cpan’t seem to get you to to understand. Ask the Lord to open your understanding b Reply October 24, 2018 Louise Cummings I think I was talking to the Link Hudson. And really the other guy. I can’t think of his name. I forgot to hit post. But not talking to you and Bro Terry Wiles. He seems so happy, every time he writes anything. I believe they are ready. You Bro Troy Day too. I wasn’t referring to y’all. I have got to start to remember to hit post. Then it would go in it’s correct place. Reply July 2, 2020 Varnel Watson Steve Conley I would like to call you out on your hidden pre-wrath heresy you dont explain openly for some reason Here is a GREAT question for you as a self-proclaimed 90s pastor with no degree to back it As they say in higher academia Big mouth with no degree to back it But since you claim to be a pastor too The pastors will NOT be able to receive salaries, insurance or anything included in their package. Remember, if the church cannot buy or sale, neither can the pastor receive a salary. And even if a salary is given, what would the pastor spend it on without the mark of the beast? Tithing system – those are most usually set up with a paper check or some sort of electronic banking like debiting or crediting. With the mark of the beast, the church will NOT be able to receive those moneys and even if it does, it cannot operate with them to buy or sell anything. What about church buildings – without the mark of the beast they will not be able to purchase any service – electricity, lights, internet, gas for church vans, insurance, special events, catering, food – no communion elements. Nothing at all. With no professional services available, a church building may last a few months, but will fall apart soon before the Tribulation is over… Just think about it Seems to me apart from not knowing jack about theology your hold of pre-wrath 3/4 rapture ends with collecting govt PPP loan to save church building and your own salary of course Reply July 2, 2020 Varnel Watson Steve Conley WHY you support and accept the pre-wrath as a man made heresy? The person who conceived the “Pre-Wrath” view of the Rapture was a man named Robert Van Kampen (1938-1999). Van Kampen became one of America’s richest men through his involvement in investment banking. During his lifetime he accumulated one of the largest private collections of rare and antique Bibles in North America. In the 1970’s Van Kampen began developing the “Pre- Wrath” concept of the timing of the Rapture. Once he had completed his work on the concept, he started trying to find a well known person in the field of Bible prophecy to endorse his new view. That person finally turned out to be Marvin Rosenthal I object to the 3/4 Trib Rapture because it violates the chronology of the book of Revelation. The sequence of events that is pictured in the book of Revelation clearly places both the Seal Judgments and the Trumpet Judgments in the first half of the 70th Week of Daniel. And the Bowl Judgments are clearly contained within Daniel’s 70th Week, near its end. The 3/4 Trib view scrambles all this. The Seal Judgments are continued over into the second half of the 7 year period, the Trumpet Judgments are moved from the first half to the end of the second half Reply July 2, 2020 Watchman Eric Williamson The Devil and his minions are working tirelessly to ensure that when the Rapture does happen you won’t believe it was the Lord removing His Bride from the Earth. All the Devil has to do is cause you to doubt the truth of God’s Word for a moment and he has you by the short and curlies! Doubt is what expelled Adam and Eve from Paradise! Reply July 2, 2020 Varnel Watson Doubt is what will make people LEFT BEHIND Reply July 2, 2020 Lito Nartéa Variant of the fake pretrib. Reply July 2, 2020 Varnel Watson cant be a Variant of pretrib because it comes 3/4 durign the Trib A variant of pre-Trib would have had to place it before the Trib Since its during the trib it is more a variant of mid-Trib which is the most confusing among all eschatological schemes. Well not 3/4-Trib pre-Wrath beats every one with its confusion and unBiblical origins Reply July 3, 2020 Dave Holdway Rapture will take place with the earthquake which destroys Gog and Magog. Most likely date? Three and a half years into Daniel’s 1,335th prophetic ‘day’. Reply July 3, 2020 Steve Conley Troy Day you are railing against something that you know nothing about. https://www.alankurschner.com/2012/07/31/tenets-of-prewrath/ Reply July 3, 2020 Steve Conley Why Pretribulationism is So Dangerous The “Secret Rapture” is a doctrine that was created by JN Darby and popularized among Western evangelicals by a slew of popular teachers over the last 180 years. Its creation was largely due to the fact that Darby did not recognize the difference between the great tribulation and the day of the Lord. It is an attempt to reconcile what appeared to him to be contradicting statements within the Scriptures concerning the saint’s presence in the great tribulation and Paul’s statement that we are not appointed unto wrath. Instead of seeing that the nature of the great tribulation is that of the unprecedented persecution of the saints which has nothing to do with the wrath of God in the day of the Lord, he chose to bifurcate the people of God and the singular future parousia of Christ, His second. This wrongly dividing of the saints into subgroups (“the church” which Jesus loves and will not experience His wrath and “the tribulation saints” which Jesus must love less because they will experience His wrath) and wrongly dividing the parousia into two distinct comings (one for the saints and another with the saints) has served as the underpinning of the pretrib system. Both would be laughable if it wasn’t for the serious nature of the error. The dangerousness of the error has to do with the resulting neglect of Christ’s warnings given in Matt 24. Pretribulationists see the warnings as belonging to another subgroup of saints or even unbelieving Jews. For this reason, they are dismissive of their applicability to present-day believers. It is these warnings of our Lord that provide much-needed protection for believers who will live in the generation of Christ’s parousia. The warnings fall into two categories, physical and spiritual. The real danger lies in the spiritual realm. The danger is that of departing from the Faith. Jesus said that due to the unprecedented violent persecution many would be offended, that is, they would depart from the Faith. Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake. Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. He also said that the false prophets would deceive many through their lying signs and wonders. Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Paul called this notable departure from the faith apostasia, a falling away. He said it would come before Christ’s arrival. 2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; This most dangerous apostasy will have eternal consequences for anyone who worships the Beast and takes the mark, particularly those who forsake Christ to do so. Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. For those who choose not the love of the truth, the Lord Himself will send them strong delusion that they might believe a lie. 2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. The Scriptures are clear that if any fail to continue in faith toward Christ they are not a partaker of Christ. It is in Christ that we have righteousness, sanctification, and redemption. Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; Any, who do not continue to believe, are not of Christ’s household. Heb 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end. Continuing in the Faith is non-negotiable. We must continue having faith in Christ. None can deny Christ and hope for Salvation. Act 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God. If one fails to continue in faith toward Christ, they have believed in vain. 1Co 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. Continuing in faith is absolutely essential. Our salvation is not based upon merit or human performance, but it does require an abiding faith in Christ. Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; Believing unto the end is required. Faith is not a meritorious work, it is the hand that reaches out to receive the grace of God. Any who abandon faith in Christ are lost. Heb 6:11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end: Falling away due to persecution or being deceived results in eternal damnation. Salvation is only found in Christ. To forsake Him is to cast away all hope. 1Jn 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. 1Jn 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. Many pretribers are as unprepared as the lost for this period of unprecedented persecution and supernatural deception. Reply July 3, 2020 Varnel Watson so no video jkust copy paste? Steve Conley you know James C. Morris Zachary Uram may soon start considering your copy pastes of the same like spamming the group ? Reply July 3, 2020 Steve Conley Troy Day Is that a threat? Will you try to silence those who preach the truth that exposes what you have been teaching. I recon you would. Reply July 3, 2020 Steve Conley Troy Day why can’t you discuss a text? What are you afraid of? Reply July 5, 2020 Varnel Watson here is a GREAT text to discuss The person who conceived the “Pre-Wrath” view of the Rapture was a man named Robert Van Kampen (1938-1999). Van Kampen became one of America’s richest men through his involvement in investment banking. During his lifetime he accumulated one of the largest private collections of rare and antique Bibles in North America. In the 1970’s Van Kampen began developing the “Pre- Wrath” concept of the timing of the Rapture. Once he had completed his work on the concept, he started trying to find a well known person in the field of Bible prophecy to endorse his new view. That person finally turned out to be Marvin Rosenthal I object to the 3/4 Trib Rapture because it violates the chronology of the book of Revelation. The sequence of events that is pictured in the book of Revelation clearly places both the Seal Judgments and the Trumpet Judgments in the first half of the 70th Week of Daniel. And the Bowl Judgments are clearly contained within Daniel’s 70th Week, near its end. The 3/4 Trib view scrambles all this. The Seal Judgments are continued over into the second half of the 7 year period, the Trumpet Judgments are moved from the first half to the end of the second ETC Reply July 5, 2020 Steve Conley Troy Day Bla, bla, bla, bla, bla, where is your chapter and verse? Reply July 5, 2020 Mike Forfar Troy Day when are you people going to learn that the 70th week of Daneil was fulfilled in 27AD-34AD and messiah was cut off in the middle of the week. it has nothing to do with end times Reply July 5, 2020 Varnel Watson Steve Conley lets start here 🙂 http://www.textexcavation.com/documents/images/ah5p049.jpg?fbclid=IwAR1Z_AND-VU7VFvn_xN6GJNGxIzz64wUXXoS2aUUF5wXpElomd_YfPfT1Xc Reply July 5, 2020 Steve Conley I’m not reading your linked articles. I want you to discuss a Bible text that you think supports pretribulationism. What are you afraid of? Are you unable to spontaneously articulate a defense of what you believe by quoting chapter and verse? Reply July 5, 2020 Varnel Watson Steve Conley it is the BIBLE in original Greek and Latin as commented by Irenaeus whom you falsely misquoted. Why are you running now that you are so deep in? Scared again? Reply July 5, 2020 Steve Conley Troy Day I have no idea what you are talking about. Reply July 5, 2020 Varnel Watson @Mike Forfar when are you people going to learn that the 70th week of Daneil was fulfilled in 27AD-34AD – when you show me Jesus who you say returned in 70AD Reply July 8, 2020 Varnel Watson Pre-Wrath Rapture View is just another minor heretical view This view was recently developed and popularized by Marvin Rosenthal and Robert Van Kampen. The view holds that the church will be raptured about 3/4 of the way through the seventieth week of Daniel. The view divides the tribulation period up into (1) the beginning of sorrows, (2) the great tribulation, and (3) the Day of the Lord. The third period is the time of God’s wrath from which Christians will be spared. This threefold division creates numerous and significant linguistic, exegetical, and theological problems regarding the seven-year length of God’s wrath and the length of the Day of the Lord. M arvin Ro sen tha l, The Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church (Nash ville: Tho mas N elson, 19 90); Ro bert Va n K am pe n, The Sign of Christ’s Coming and the End of the Age (Wheaton, Ill.: Crossway, 199 2). The pre-wrath view of the rapture attempts to reconcile the truths and difficulties of the other three beliefs. It is similar to midtribulationism in that there is a distinction between the wrath of the Antichrist, which believers will live through, and the wrath of God, which they won’t. The main difference is that the pre-wrath view does not identify the shifting of wrath from the Antichrist to God with the exact mid-point of the tribulation—instead, it’s sometime after. The Antichrist’s persecution of the church will be “cut short” (Matthew 24:22), BUT in MT 24 Jesus never mentions the NT church just the Jews There are 3 major problems with the pre-wrath teaching of the rapture. First, it denies that the first six seal judgments, which are ordained by God, are part of His wrath (Revelation 5—6). Second, it denies the difference between believers of the church age and those of the ages of Israel; the tribulation is the final of Daniel’s “weeks” concerning Israel, and tribulation saints will be a part of Israel’s age, not the church’s. Finally, it denies the imminence of the rapture. There is nothing that must happen, including the Antichrist’s persecution against believers, before Jesus takes His church (Titus 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 4:13–18; 1 Corinthians 15:50–54). 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 is integral to pre-wrath’s position because they believe this passage proves that Jesus cannot rapture the church until the Antichrist has exalted himself in the future rebuilt temple 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8: Does it Support a Pre-wrath View? Not only is this an obvious straw man argument, but it needlessly makes the doctrine of the timing of the rapture essential to a person’s salvation! Make no mistake about it, Revelation 14:9-11 teaches that all who receive the mark of the beast will suffer eternal damnation. Both pre-tribulation and pre-wrath proponents see “the day of the Lord” as occurring immediately after the rapture. These verses provide no answer to the question of when the rapture occurs, they merely prove to the Thessalonians that they were not living in “the day of the Lord,” and therefore could not have missed the rapture. Paul does not teach that the Antichrist is revealed at the time he sets himself in the temple, but at the time the restrainer is removed (verses 7- 8). The parousia is not a “coming with continued presence” as pre-wrath scholars claim. In fact, prewrath scholars must maintain a twofold or composite parousia just like pre-tribulation scholars. It is logically inconsistent to argue for one parousia, while maintaining a 3 and ½ year reign of Antichrist mentioned in Revelation 13:5. The pre-wrath position that Revelation 7:14 and Matthew 24:29-31 both teach the rapture is a contradiction It cannot be proven that God’s wrath is not present during either the tribulation or the great tribulation period of the 70th week. In fact, a good case can be made that God’s wrath is present during the entire tribulation period. It is a logical fallacy to claim that the great tribulation is shortened to less than 3 and ½ years. The day of the Lord does not begin during the last 3 and ½ year period, but at the beginning of the 70th week Paul quenched the Thessalonians’ fear by writing, “Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and then the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction…” (2 Thessalonians 2:3). The “it” that I bolded does not exist in the Greek text. We must assume that the reference to what “…will not come unless…” is the day of the Lord from the preceding verse And I can keep on going BUT BOTTOM LINE pre-wrath is a man made theory developed in in the 1990s and until then literally NO one knew about it – no one in church history and obviously no one in the BIBLE Leave a Reply Click here to cancel reply. Cancel replyComment Name Email Website This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.