Posted by Pentecostal Theology in Facebook's Pentecostal Theology Group View the Original Post


Do you think it is biblical to vaccinate our children as a rule? Some struggle with the pressure from Christian “friends” that we shouldn’t vaccinate and should just have more faith. Is this true? Are vaccinations the mark of the beast from the devil? – to mess up our kids and their future. Should we talk about a separation of church and state on this issue? #Pentecostal #church #Christian #GOD

Pentecostal Theology [02/26/2015 7:36 AM]
Christian B. wrote the following comment. What do you think:
“Thank you for your Facebook comment. This vaccination topic is a great concern of our family which we struggle with greatly. We were watching the 6 o’clock news tonight and it suggested that there is only a 1 in a million chance of anything going wrong with these vaccinations, but there ARE neurotoxins and preservatives in them. This is scary. Some parents interviewed said that their children after vaccination would scream a high pitched cry and had difficulty calming them down. We have experienced the same problem and reported our concerns, but were ignored. As Christians we felt it best not to get angry and cause a scene. We have friends who refuse to vaccinate based on religious reason, but were dropped from their insurance and pediatrician. This is something we can’t afford and is definitely not fair. We don’t want to be stereotyped as religious fanatics, but we do not want to put our children in dangers way. Is it okay to get angry sometimes? Should we just have more faith? Please help us pray for Gods direction to do the right thing.
It has been documented that children begin to demonstrate symptoms of Autism around the again of one year old which is also the same time children get the MMR vaccinations. Is there a link? However, some religious groups feel that Autistic characteristics are from demonic influences and not associated with biological or medical causes. What are your views?” -Christian B.

Jonathan Downie [02/26/2015 7:46 AM]
Vaccines in Western countries are some of the most well studied forms of medicine. It is actually wrong to say that any now contain harmful levels of neurotoxins – a lie which was spread only because of a misunderstanding of the difference between an element and a compound.

The whole debate has been discussed here by people with more expertise than I:

In short, I would say that being vaccinated is one of the most loving things that we can do as it not only protects the person being vaccinated but provides protection by vulnerable people in society whose systems cannot take vaccines but who can benefit from the herd immunity vaccines offer.

Jonathan Downie [02/26/2015 7:51 AM]
And anyone who seriously considers that vaccines are demonic needs to go read some basic epidemiology and for that matter, theology. No link has ever been proven between vaccines and later health problems. In fact, the number of studies disproving the link between vaccines and autism is not well into the double-figures, including meta-studies.

Pentecostal Theology [02/26/2015 8:21 AM]
With all you’re saying, its very strange your pediatrician starts screening for Autism (without openly stating) right after MMR vaccinations is administered

Jonathan Downie [02/26/2015 8:30 AM]
Correlation is not causation.

I have a niece and a nephew on the ASD spectrum. Their mum would know more about diagnoses than I do but I do know that many of the signs do not show up until later in development. It is simply impossible, for instance, to know if a newborn has anything form of ASD. Also, do remember that autism is not a single condition but a wide spectrum of different conditions, with different symptoms and, it seems, different causes.

Similarly, vaccine schedules, at least here in the UK, change on a regular basis, due to new knowledge. So it may be that autism screening (here done informally by Health Visitors on the basis of need) and MMR vaccination coincide now but will not in as little as 6 months’ time. As a small example, here in Scotland, we have had one vaccine moved from injection to oral, one added to the schedule and one removed in the 18 months between the birth of my two children. We also have a publicly searchable database of reactions to all vaccines, which is more than we have for paracetamol, penicillin or even methol.

As Christians, we must be very careful to know the difference between healthy scepticism and ungrounded fear. We must also honour the expertise God has given to scientists and doctors in their fight, in partnership with God, against disease.

Pentecostal Theology [02/26/2015 8:35 AM]
Sorry to hear about your niece and a nephew. It is very sad indeed, but do you think this court was wrong when ruled that “specifically, measles-mumps-rubella (MMR) vaccinations,” caused a “severe and debilitating injury to his brain, described as Autism Spectrum Disorder (‘ASD’).”

Jonathan Downie [02/26/2015 8:38 AM]
Wow. That is a bit of a crazy analogy. Heroin is known to be toxic and yes, has been studied by science.

In fact, vaccines contain not mercury but mercuric compunds. Let me explain the difference. Hydrogen is explosive and oxygen causes fires. Both are gases at room temperature and pressure. Yet when they are brought together in a compund they can either be healthy and used to stop fires (water) or the most basic bleach known to man (hydrogen peroxide).

Similarly, mercury the element is a liquid metal. It is harmful but not nearly as bad as when it is combined with chlorine to make mercuric chlorides. The “mercury” in vaccines is in fact part of thiomersal which is not used any more and never had any proven toxicity. Proof, if proof were needed, that vaccine producers respond to public concerns.

As for the court, I think that the ruling there is deliberately unclear. Compensation was awarded but that is not the same as seeing the MMR vaccine as unsafe. The scientific consensus is clear but sadly one paper, by a researcher who breached ethics and falsified data has everyone going crazy.

Pentecostal Theology [02/26/2015 8:41 AM]
Mercury exists in three forms: elemental mercury, inorganic mercury compounds (primarily mercuric chloride), and organic mercury compounds (primarily methyl mercury). All forms of mercury are quite toxic, and each form exhibits different health effects.
Acute (short-term) exposure to high levels of elemental mercury in humans results in central nervous system (CNS) effects such as tremors, mood changes, and slowed sensory and motor nerve function. Chronic (long-term) exposure to elemental mercury in humans also affects the CNS, with effects such as erethism (increased excitability), irritability, excessive shyness, and tremors. Human studies are inconclusive regarding elemental mercury and cancer.
Acute exposure to inorganic mercury by the oral route may result in effects such as nausea, vomiting, and severe abdominal pain. The major effect from chronic exposure to inorganic mercury is kidney damage. Animal studies have reported effects such as alterations in testicular tissue, increased resorption rates, and abnormalities of development. Mercuric chloride (an inorganic mercury compound) exposure has been shown to result in forestomach, thyroid, and renal tumors in experimental animals.
Acute exposure of humans to very high levels of methyl mercury results in CNS effects such as blindness, deafness, and impaired level of consciousness. Chronic exposure to methyl mercury in humans also affects theCNS with symptoms such as paresthesia (a sensation of pricking on the skin), blurred vision, malaise, speech difficulties, and constriction of the visual field. Methyl mercury exposure, via the oral route, has led to significant developmental effects. Infants born to women who ingested high levels of methyl mercury exhibited mental retardation, ataxia, constriction of the visual field, blindness, and cerebral palsy.

Jonathan Downie [02/26/2015 8:50 AM]
Take a look at thiomersal and tell me how much of that is mercury. It is actually looks to be more of a phenol with a mercury arm to me so even if it was still used, which it isn’t, I am not ever sure it could be fairly classed as a mercuric compound.

It all comes down to this: do we run around with fear or investigate ourselves using all the critical faculties God has given us.

As far as I can tell, vaccine fears boil down to two things. 1) “I don’t trust drug companies”. To which I would say, neither you should but you should look at the systems in place to check their power.
2) “I don’t trust science”. To which I would say, “then don’t drive, fly, eat, wear clothes or read”. The same empirical processes that allow me to type this message and enable it to be read are the exact same processes used to check the toxicity of chemicals, monitor vaccine effects, create epidemiology reports, create drugs and adjust treatments.

As a researcher myself, I know fine well there is no such thing as a flawless paper. This is why, for something to be scientifically established, there needs to be a consensus built byu looking at the same thing from different angles.

Jonathan Downie [02/26/2015 8:51 AM]
In the case of vaccines, you have toxicologists, epidemiologists, pharmacologists, chemists and biologists to name a few looking at the same thing. Sure, one link in the chain might go wrong from time to time but it is a breathtaking claim to suggest that the whole thing is a sham.

Jonathan Downie [02/26/2015 8:52 AM]
It is striking that no epidemiologist, toxicologist or pharmacologist has ever join the anti-vax movement. Instead, they rely on a hodge-podge or new agers, alt health gurus and dodgy ex-practitioners. I know who my money is on. As Christians, ought we not to be doubting more a movement with heavy alt health and new age involvement and questioning the real motives behind it?

Pentecostal Theology [02/26/2015 8:59 AM]
If you were given a syringe with Aluminum, Formaldehyde, MSG, Thimerosal a mercury-containing preservative and told don’t worry just inject it, it’s safe, would you? At one time Heroin was considered safe and non-addictive. Just a little bit of cocaine was used in a popular household drink and opium was given to kids and adults alike as freely as aspirin. At one time…

Jonathan Downie [02/26/2015 9:15 AM]
And subsequent science moved these chemicals out of use. As I previously said, thiomersal is out of use now. Aluminium I would evaluate based on which compound it was in. I regularly use a nix stick on my skin which is 99.5% aluminium sulphide. On a bad shaving day, I probably introduce more of that into my bloodstream than any injection.

MSG I would be surprised to see in vaccines but if it is there, I would be interested in the dosages. Formaldehyde, I would again assess based on the scientific toxicity reports.

My main point, which I have not seen you attempt to refute, is simply that we must make our decisions on the basis of proven evidence and not scare-mongering. We also need to balance our view of the risks of taking vaccines (which here in the UK are publicly available for all vaccines) against the risks of getting the disease both for us and those around us.

Personally, I praise God for the end of polio and smallpox. Both of which were prevented and have been driven to the wall by vaccines. Vaccines which have changed their formulation several times over the years in response precisely to changes in scientific knowledge.

I have an uncle who was nearly crippled by polio before the vaccine became widespread. In the years before its adoption in the UK, tens of thousands of children were crippled, hundreds killed each year. Within only two years, the rates were in the hundreds and within ten years they were in double-figures. The year of the vaccine’s introduction was the worst for a decade.

Of course, correlation is not causation. But I haven’t seen any convincing evidence of any other factor that would explain such a precipitous fall. It is the same with measles, why are measles rates (including deaths) always higher when vaccine rates are lowest?

Pentecostal Theology [02/26/2015 9:19 AM]
Thimerosal is still used in influenza (flu) vaccines. The other elements (and/or their derivatives) are used in vaccines as well.

Jonathan Downie [02/26/2015 9:27 AM]
I just checked formaldehyde. It is used in the production of dead vaccines and then is diluted out so the exposure is minimal. It is also naturally produced in the body and there are safe limits given. Thiomersal is in the flu vaccine but within allowed levels and no adverse reactions to it have been recorded. It is not used in vaccines for children. This guy and this guy cover the details better than I do.

Bottom line, yes, some chemicals in vaccines are dangerous in high doses. The dose in your entire life’s worth of vaccines is a tiny fraction of anything near the dangerous doses. Just think, most of them contain water and too much of that can kill you.

If we really want to be crazy safe we could check the ingredients of every single vaccine and check recommended exposure levels, which are always set a stupidly low levels. We could then say, for instance, that none of the ingredients in the latest formulations of MMR have reported neurotoxicity at the levels in the vaccine.

I notice that you have not dealt with the central core of my argument viz, that we must criticallty decide on evidence and not fear and that if we want to argue against vaccines, we have to immerse ourselves in several fields and assume that all have been taken over by Bid Bad Pharma.

Jonathan Downie [02/26/2015 9:37 AM]
I must say the original article on the site is an excellent overview of the Christian perspective on vaccines.

Pentecostal Theology [02/26/2015 9:49 AM]
You mean this one here?

Jonathan Downie [02/26/2015 9:50 AM]
Yep. I do like that piece.

Pentecostal Theology [02/26/2015 9:53 AM]
It reads well, but it will be very hard to present to a congregation

Jonathan Downie [02/26/2015 9:55 AM]
There are ways round that. I think the page -> congregation issue is one that has been discussed in homiletics for a while. Charles Bartow has done quite a bit of work on it.

John Earp [02/26/2015 11:20 AM]
I am against the government forcing anyone to take any medicines. I am for education and moral persuasion with regard to what is best for one’s children.

Kathleen S Brown [06/26/2015 2:02 PM]
we are not Hodge-podge. we are families who have been dealt a raw deal, with A Grandson who has Diabetes immediately from a Flu Vaccine.and if you took the time to go to the Sacramento Capital meetings and met with the mothers of children who went from normal to NOT directly after a series of vaccines, YOU would then understand: this is real: Look up Dr toni Park, A DR with experience: and there were other Professionals with testimony. this is Not fake. and I pray you will respect the 1000’s of mom’s, and children who have been affected by vaccines: the real number of vaccines that are being suggested now should be an Outcry to all.


Leave a Reply

This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.