In 1 John 4:2b, what does John mean by ἐν σαρκὶ ἐληλυθότα? “In flesh [and blood]” or “among humans/men”? And why is this such an important issue?
Please provide primary source(s) for any historical references.
By the way, my own view is that “John” wrote his letter to correct various misrepresentations of Jesus, such as saying that he was divine or an angel (the message of the antichrists) which he considered idolatry.
σάρξ, σαρκός, ἡ (Hom.+; ‘flesh’). ① the material that covers the bones
of a human or animal body, flesh lit. 1 Cor 15:39abcd; Hv 3, 10, 4; 3,
12, 1. The pl. (which denotes flesh in the mass [Lucian, Dial. Mort.
10, 5], whereas the sing. rather denotes the substance.—Herodas 4, 61;
Gen 40:19; 1 Km 17:44; 4 Km 9:36; PsSol 4:19; TestJob 13:5; Philo;
Jos., Ant. 12, 211; Just., A I, 26, 7; Mel., P. 52, 383; Ath. 34, 2)
Lk 24:39 v.l.; Rv 19:18, 21 (4 [6] Esdr [POxy 1010, 16] cannibalism
out of hunger, sim. Mel., P. 52, 383; Quint. Smyrn. 11, 245: the
σάρκες of the slain are food for the birds) B 10:4; metaph. Rv 17:16.
It decays 1 Cl 25:3; cp. Ac 2:31 (cp. 2a below). Normally gives forth
an evil odor when burned MPol 15:2. W. bones (s. ὀστέον) 1 Cl 6:3 (Gen
2:23); Lk 24:39; Eph 5:30 v.l. (metaph.). Paul speaks of his illness
as a σκόλοψ τῇ σαρκί (s. σκόλοψ) 2 Cor 12:7. ἡ ἐν σαρκὶ περιτομή the
physical circumcision (cp. Just., D. 10, 1 al.) Ro 2:28; cp. Eph
2:11b; Col 2:13 (ἀκροβυστία 2); Gal 6:13 (ἡ σάρξ=the flesh that is
circumcised); B 9:4. Metaph.: the corrosion on the precious metals of
the rich φάγεται τὰς σάρκας ὑμῶν ὡς πῦρ Js 5:3.—Ign. describes the
elements of the Eucharist as σὰρξ (or αἷμα) Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ IRo 7:3;
IPhld 4; ISm 7:1. Also J 6:51–56 urges that one must eat the flesh
(and drink the blood) of the Human One or Son of Man (Just., A I, 66,
2; s. TPhilips, Die Verheissung der hl. Eucharistie nach Joh. 1922;
Bultmann ad loc.; AWikenhauser ’48, 105f).—His anti-Docetic position
also leads Ign. to use the concept ‘flesh (and blood) of p 915
Christ’ in other contexts as well ITr 8:1; IPhld 5:1.—For Mt 16:17;
Gal 1:16; Eph 6:12; and 1 Cor 15:50 s. 3a. ② the physical body as
functioning entity, body, physical body ⓐ as substance and living
entity (Aeschyl., Sept. 622: opp. νοῦς; Ex 30:32; 4 Km 6:30; TestAbr A
20 p. 103, 6 [Stone p. 54] πάντα τὰ μέλη τῆς σαρκός μου; w. καρδία or
ψυχή Alex. Aphr., An. p. 98, 7–10 Br.; Ps 37:8; 62:2; Eccl 2:3; Ezk
11:19; 44:7 a1.; Jos., Bell. 6, 47, Ant. 19, 325; Ar.15, 7) οὔτε ἡ
σὰρξ αὐτοῦ εἶδεν διαφθοράν Ac 2:31 (but s. 1). W. ψυχή 1 Cl 49:6 (Tat.
13:2 al.). W. καρδία Ac 2:26 (Ps 15:9).—Eph 5:29. ἑόρακαν τὸ πρόσωπόν
μου ἐν σαρκί they have seen me face to face Col 2:1. ἕως ἂν τὸν
χριστὸν ἐν σαρκὶ ἴδῃ before he had seen the Messiah in person GJs 24:4
(cp. Lk 2:26). Opp. πνεῦμα (Ath. 31:3; PGM 5, 460 ἐπικαλοῦμαί σε τὸν
κτίσαντα πᾶσαν σάρκα κ. πᾶν πνεῦμα) 1 Cor 5:5; 2 Cor 7:1; Col 2:5; 1
Pt 4:6; Hm 3:1; 10, 2, 6; cp. AcPl Ant 13:17 (=Aa, I 237, 2; s. οἶδα);
also in relation to Christ (though this is disputed) J 6:63; Hs 5, 6,
5–7; cp. 1 Ti 3:16.—ἀσθένεια τῆς σαρκός bodily ailment Gal 4:13; s.
vs. 14. ἀσθενὴς τῇ σαρκί weak in the body Hs 9, 1, 2. ὁ ἀλγῶν σάρκα
the one who is ill in body B 8:6. πάσχειν σαρκί 1 Pt 4:1b. Cp. 2 Cor
7:5. ἡ τῆς σαρκὸς καθαρότης the purity of the body Hb 9:13 (opp.
καθαρίζειν τὴν συνείδησιν vs. 14). σαρκὸς ἀπόθεσις ῥύπου 1 Pt 3:21 (s.
ῥύπος 1). The σάρξ is raised fr. the dead (s. ParJer 6:9; Theoph. Ant.
1, 7 [74, 2]) 1 Cl 26:3; 2 Cl 9:1. ἀνάστασις σαρκός AcPlCor 1:12; 2:24
(σαρκὸς ἀνάστασιν Just., D. 80, 5); cp. ἀναστήσεσθε ἔχοντες ὑγιῆ τὴν
σάρκα AcPlCor 2:32. Of the body of Christ during his earthly ministry
Eph 2:14 (JHart, The Enmity in His Flesh: Exp. 6th ser., 3, 1901,
135–41); Hb 10:20; 1 Pt 3:18; 4:1a; 1J 4:2; 2J 7; B 5:1, 10f; 6:7, 9;
7:5; 12:10; IEph 7:2; Pol 7:1; AcPlCor 2:6b. Married couples form μία
σάρξ (Gen 2:24; s. Ath. 33, 2 τὴν σάρκα πρὸς σάρκα …
κοινωνίαν.—GAicher, Mann u. Weib ein Fleisch: BZ 5, 1907, 159–65) Mt
19:5f; Mk 10:8ab; 1 Cor 6:16; Eph 5:31 (on these passages, TBurkill,
ZNW 62, ’71, 115–20). δικαιώματα σαρκός behind ‘all sorts of
ceremonial washings’ there are regulations that concern the physical
body Hb 9:10.—On ὑποτάγητε τῷ ἐπισκόπῳ ὡς ὁ Χριστὸς τῷ πατρὶ κατὰ
σάρκα IMg 13:2 s. Hdb. ad loc. and MRackl, Die Christologie des hl.
Ignatius v. Ant. 1914, 228.—πνεῦμα δυνάμεως … ὁ θεὸς … κατέπεμψεν εἰς
σάρκα τουτέστιν εἰς τὴν Μαρίαν God sent a powerful spirit (prob. a
ref. to the kind of divine breath that brought the first human being
to life [Gen 2:7]) into flesh, that is, into Mary AcPl Ha 8, 26=BMM
recto 34; s. AcPlCor 1:14. ⓑ as someth. with physical limitations,
life here on earth (ApcEsdr 4:4 p. 28, 3 Tdf. σάρκα ἀνθρωπίνην φορῶ)
θλῖψιν τῇ σαρκὶ ἕξουσιν 1 Cor 7:28. Cp. 2 Cor 4:11; Col 1:24. Of
Christ τὸ σῶμα τῆς σαρκὸς αὐτοῦ his body with its physical limitations
Col 1:22; cp. 2:11 and s. cα below (cp. En 102:5 τὸ σῶμα τῆς σαρκὸς
ὑμῶν; 1QpHab 9:2; Orig., C. Cels. 6, 29, 25).—Of human life: ἀποδημεῖν
τῆς σαρκός MPol 2:2 (s. ἀποδημέω). ἐπιμένειν ἐν τῇ σαρκί Phil 1:24.
ζῆν ἐν σαρκί vs. 22; Gal 2:20. ἐν σ. περιπατεῖν 2 Cor 10:3a. ἐν σ.
τυγχάνειν Dg 5:8a. ὄντος ἔτι ἐν σ. σου AcPlCor 1:6. τὸν ἐπίλοιπον ἐν
σ. χρόνον 1 Pt 4:2. ἡ ἐπιδημία τῆς σαρκὸς ταύτης our sojourn in life
2 Cl 5:5. ἐν τῇ σαρκί in our earthly life 8:2. ⓒ as instrument of
various actions or expressions. α. In Paul’s thought esp., all parts
of the body constitute a totality known as σ. or flesh, which is
dominated by sin to such a degree that wherever flesh is, all forms of
sin are likew. present, and no good thing can live in the σάρξ Ro 7:18
(cp. Philo, Gig. 29 αἴτιον δὲ τῆς ἀνεπιστημοσύνης μέγιστον ἡ σὰρξ καὶ
ἡ πρὸς σάρκα οἰκείωσις; Sextus 317 ἀγαθὸν ἐν σαρκὶ μὴ ἐπιζήτει. The OT
lays no stress on a necessary relationship betw. flesh as a substance,
and sin. But for Epicurus the σάρξ is the bearer of sinful feelings
and desires as well as the means of sensual enjoyment: Ep. in Plut.,
Mor. 135c; 1087bf; 1089e; 1096c αἱ τῆς σαρκὸς ἐπιθυμίαι. Also Diog. L.
10, 145. Likew. Plut. himself: Mor. 101b ταῖς τῆς σαρκὸς ἡδοναῖς;
672e; 688d; 734a; Ps.-Plut., Mor. 107f σαρκὶ καὶ τοῖς πάθεσι ταύτης;
Maximus Tyr. 33, 7a. Cp. 4 Macc 7:18 τὰ τῆς σαρκὸς πάθη; Philo, Deus
Imm. 143 σαρκὸς ἡδονή, Gig. 29; TestJud 19:4; TestZeb 9:7; ApcMos 25
[p. 14, 2 Tdf.] εἰς τὴν ἁμαρτίαν τῆς σαρκός); Ro 6:19; 7:25 (opp.
νοῦς); 8:3a, 4–9 (cp. Persius 2, 63 scelerata pulpa, which
contaminates devotion to deity), 12f; Gal 5:13, 24; Col 2:23; Jd 23;
AcPlCor 2:11, 15; Dg 6:5 (opp. ψυχή, as Plut., Mor. 101b). Opp. τὸ
πνεῦμα Ro 8:4, 5, 6, 9, 13; Gal 3:3; 5:16, 17ab; 6:8ab; J 3:6; B 10:9.
τὸ μὲν πνεῦμα πρόθυμον, ἡ δὲ σὰρξ ἀσθενής (cp. Orig., C. Cels. 2, 25,
8) Mt 26:41; Mk 14:38; Pol 7:2. σὰρξ ἁμαρτίας sinful flesh Ro 8:3b.
ἐπιθυμία (τῆς) σαρκός (cp. Maximus Tyr. 20, 9f σαρκῶν … ἐπιθυμίας) Gal
5:16; 1J 2:16; B 10:9. Pl. Eph 2:3a, cp. b; 2 Pt 2:18; cp. Ro 13:14.
τὰ ἔργα τῆς σαρκός Gal 5:19 (s. Vögtle at πλεονεξία). τὰ θελήματα τῆς
σαρκός Eph 2:3b. ὁ νοῦς τῆς σαρκός Col 2:18. τὸ σῶμα τῆς σαρκός the
body of (sinful) flesh 2:11; cp. 1:22 and s. b above (cp. Sir 23:17
σῶμα σαρκὸς αὐτοῦ; En 102:5 τῷ σώματι τῆς σαρκὸς ὑμῶν). τὰ τῆς σαρκός
what pertains to (sinful) flesh Ro 8:5b. ἐν (τῇ) σαρκὶ εἶναι be in an
unregenerate (and sinful) state Ro 7:5; 8:8f. τὰ ἔθνη ἐν σαρκί Eph
2:11a. κατὰ σάρκα εἶναι Ro 8:5a; ζῆν vs. 12b; 13; Dg 5:8b; περιπατεῖν
Ro 8:4; 2 Cor 10:2; βουλεύεσθαι 1:17; στρατεύεσθαι 10:3b; cp. IRo 8:3
(opp. κατὰ γνώμην θεοῦ). β. source of the sexual urge. The σάρξ is the
source of the sexual urge, without any suggestion of sinfulness
connected w. it ἐκ θελήματος σαρκὸς ἐγεννήθησαν J 1:13. ⓓ as someth.
attractive 2 Pt 2:10 (a Hebraism, cp. Judg 2:12; 3 Km 11:10; Sir
46:10). S. also 3b. ③ one who is or becomes a physical being, living
being with flesh ⓐ of humans person, human being: πᾶσα σάρξ every
person, everyone (LXX; TestAbr B 7 p. 112, 3 [Stone p. 72]; GrBar
4:10; ApcEsdr 7:7; ApcMos 13 [p. 7, 1 Tdf.]; Mel., P. 55, 400: for
כָּל-בָּשָׂר; s. πᾶς 1aα) Lk 3:6 (Is 40:5); J 17:2; Ac 2:17 (Jo 3:1);
1 Pt 1:24 (Is 40:6); 1 Cl 59:3; 64; 2 Cl 7:6; 17:5 (the last two Is
66:24); AcPlCor 2:6a. οὐ πᾶσα σάρξ no person, nobody (En 14:21
end.—W-S. §26, 10a; B-D-F §275, 4; 302, 1; Rob. 752) Mt 24:22; Mk
13:20; Ro 3:20 (cp. Ps 142:2 πᾶς ζῶν); 1 Cor 1:29 (μή); Gal
2:16.—Though σ. in the foll. passages refers to body in its physical
aspect, it cannot be divorced from its conjunction with αἷμα, and the
unit σὰρξ καὶ αἷμα (cp. Sir 17:31; TestAbr B 13 p. 117, 26 [Stone p.
82]; Philo, Quis Div. Rer. Her. 57; Just., D. 135, 6) refers to a
human being in contrast to God and other transcendent beings Mt 16:17;
Gal 1:16; Eph 6:12 (here vice versa, αἷ. καὶ σ.). τὰ παιδία
κεκοινώνηκεν αἵματος καὶ σαρκός the children share mortal nature Hb
2:14, but with suggestion of its frailty, as indicated by the context
with its ref. to death. Because they are the opposites of the divine
nature σὰρξ καὶ αἷμα βασιλείαν θεοῦ κληρονομῆσαι οὐ δύναται 1 Cor
15:50 (JJeremias, NTS 2, ’56, 151–59). For Jd 7 s. b next. Cp. AcPl
Ant 13, 17 (=Aa I 237, 2) σαρκί personally (s. οἶδα 2). ⓑ of
transcendent entities ὁ λόγος σὰρξ ἐγένετο J 1:14 (RSeeberg, Festgabe
AvHarnack dargebracht 1921, 263–81.—Artem. 2, 35 p. 132, 27 ἐὰν
σάρκινοι οἱ θεοὶ φαίνωνται; Synes., Dio 6 p. 45b).—Of flesh other than
human: ὀπίσω σαρκὸς ἑτέρας after another kind of flesh (cp. Judg 2:12
ὀπίσω θεῶν ἑτέρων) i.e. of divine messengers who take on σ. when they
appear to humans (so Windisch et al.; difft. Frame et al. of same-sex
activity) Jd 7. p 916
…④ human/ancestral connection, human/mortal nature, earthly
descent (Did., Gen. 144, 25) Ἀβραὰμ τὸν προπάτορα ἡμῶν κατὰ σάρκα Ro
4:1 (Just., D. 43, 7 al.). οἱ συγγενεῖς μου κατὰ σάρκα 9:3. τοὺς τῆς
σαρκὸς ἡμῶν πατέρας Hb 12:9. τὸν Ἰσραὴλ κατὰ σάρκα the earthly Israel
1 Cor 10:18 (opp. τὸν Ἰσραὴλ τοῦ θεοῦ Gal 6:16). Of natural descent
τὰ τέκνα τῆς σαρκός children by natural descent Ro 9:8 (opp. τὰ τέκνα
τῆς ἐπαγγελίας). ὁ μὲν ἐκ τῆς παιδίσκης κατὰ σάρκα γεγέννηται Gal
4:23; cp. vs. 29. μου τὴν σάρκα my compatriots Ro 11:14 (s. Gen
37:27).—Of Christ’s physical nature Ro 8:3c; Hb 5:7. Christ is
descended fr. the patriarchs and fr. David (τὸ) κατὰ σάρκα according
to the human side of his nature, as far as his physical descent is
concerned Ro 1:3 (JDunn, Jesus: Flesh and Spirit [Ro 1:3f], JTS 24,
’73, 40–68); 9:5; 1 Cl 32:2; IEph 20:2. The context of 2 Cor 11:18
includes ancestry as a reason for boasting, but σ. in this pass.
applies as well to other aspects of Paul’s career and therefore
belongs more properly in 5…
⑤ the outward side of life as determined by normal perspectives or
standards, a transf. sense of 1 and 2. Usually w. κατά indicating norm
or standard σοφοὶ κατὰ σάρκα wise (people) according to human
standards 1 Cor 1:26. καυχᾶσθαι κατὰ (τὴν) σάρκα boast of one’s
outward circumstances, i.e. descent, manner of life, etc. (cp. 11:22)
2 Cor 11:18. κατὰ σάρκα Χριστόν Christ (the Messiah) from a human
point of view or as far as externals are concerned 5:16b, cp. a (κατά
B5bβ and 7a; also VWeber, BZ 2, 1904, 178–88; HWindisch, exc. ad loc.;
Rtzst., Mysterienrel.3, 374–76; FPorter, Does Paul Claim to Have Known
the Historical Jesus [2 Cor 5:16]?: JBL 47, 1928, 257–75; RMoxon, CQR
108, 1929, 320–28). οἱ κατὰ σάρκα κύριοι those who, according to human
standards, are masters Eph 6:5; Col 3:22. ὑμεῖς κατὰ τὴν σ. κρίνετε
you judge by outward things, by externals J 8:15. Of the route taken
in one’s earthly life ἡ ὁδὸς ἡ κατὰ σάρκα IRo 9:3.—ἐν σαρκὶ πεποιθέναι
place one’s trust in earthly things or physical advantages Phil 3:3f.
εὐπροσωπῆσαι ἐν σαρκί Gal 6:12. Onesimus is a beloved brother to
Philemon καὶ ἐν σαρκὶ καὶ ἐν κυρίῳ both as a human being (=personally,
in the external relationship betw. master and slave) and as a
Christian Phlm 16. ὑμῶν δὲ ἐν σαρκὶ ἐπισκόπῳ IEph 1:3 (cp. IMg
3:2).—HWindisch, Taufe u. Sünde 1908; EBurton, ICC Gal. 1920, 492–95;
WSchauf, Sarx 1924; WBieder, Auferstehung des Fleisches od. des
Leibes?: TZ 1, ’45, 105–20. W. special ref. to Paul: Ltzm., Hdb. exc.
on Ro 7:14 and 8:11; Lohmeyer (ἁμαρτία 3a); EKäsemann, Leib u. Leib
Christi ’33; RGrant, ATR 22, ’40, 199–203; RBultmann, Theologie des
NTs ’48, 228–49 (Engl. tr. by KGrobel, ’51 I, 227–59); LMarshall,
Challenge of NT Ethics ’47, 267–70; E Schweizer, Die hellenist.
Komponente im NT sarx-Begriff: ZNW 48, ’57, 237–53; two in KStendahl,
The Scrolls and the NT, ’57: KKuhn, 94–113 and WDavies, 157–82;
JPryke, ‘Spirit’ and ‘Flesh’ in Qumran and NT: RevQ 5, ’65, 346–60;
DLys, La chair dans l’AT ’67; ASand, D. Begriff ‘Fleisch’ ’67 (Paul);
RJewett, Paul’s Anthropological Terms ’71, 49–166. On Ign.:
CRichardson, The Christianity of Ign. of Ant. ’35, esp. 49 and 61. S.
also the lit. s.v. πνεῦμα, end.—B. 202. DELG. M-M. EDNT. TW. Spicq.
Sv.
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., & Bauer, W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon
of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p.
916). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
Anonymous
like I already said Neil Steven Lawrence John Mushenhouse Dale M. Coulter
Anonymous
Troy Day yes I knew that and Lee also followed Asbury in 1970. Why didn’t the spirit fall on the full gospel campus first especially since many think Asbury students don’t have the Holy Ghost or at least the Baptism of the HS
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse there may be a spiritual down air stream ???
Anonymous
Troy Day orrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse Troy Day
Know what else happened in 1970?
The Kansas City Chiefs won the Super Bowl.
Coincidence?
Anonymous
tell us now Brett Dobbs is this thing real or not? Dan Anthony Oscar Valdez
Anonymous
Troy Day from testimonies of this thing that I’ve heard here is what is what has been said.
It started out as a normal typical service. One of the student leaders spoke briefly or gave a short sermon. In his sermon he basically just started openly repenting of sin. Then others started openly repenting of sin, and they kept on worshipping. And didn’t feel like stopping. They all claimed to feel this sense of peace, inner healing and basically claim to feel the presence of God. And so they kept going and having stopped.
This information is coming from the remnant radio video I posted yesterday. Whether or not anyone likes those guys or is irrelevant because Joshua Lewis is just sharing what he saw while he was there.
He said that after a couple of hours someone will get on stage and give some house rules. He mentioned how they’re keeping this low key, doesn’t want people streaming worship and wants them involved in the worship or leave and let others in so that they can come worship. Also does ask that once someone has been there for more than 2 hours to please take a break and let others in. And then every so often they will stop the worship and ask if there is anyone who would feels that God is leading them to publicly and openly confess their sins. “We don’t need and long explanation just confess and then come down to the front for prayer”.
Also some people have tried to bring in their own instruments and they’ve shut that down. There hasn’t been any manifestations of the spirit to speak of. He didn’t hear anyone loudly praying in tongues or see anyone falling out in the spirit.
So in a nutshell, we have prayer, praising/ worshipping, public confession of sin.
Also whenever someone confesses their sin the congregation all says at the same time, (something to the extent of) “your forgiven by the by the blood of Jesus”.
So we have confession, repentance, and making Jesus center. There are no invited guest speakers. There isn’t one particular person leading.
Is it a revival? I guess that depends on one’s definition of revival.
Is it a movement of the Holy Spirit? I would say yes.
This event wasn’t planned it just happened.
One key note. On February 23rd. Many Christian college campuses planned on doing a 24 hour national prayer meeting. Asbury was one of the student bodies that was supposed to participate. Perhaps maybe the Lord decided to get them started a little earlier.
Anonymous
Troy Day
I find it odd in the discussions that I’ve seen, so many Pentecostal spiritual leaders are “parsing” what they expect the revival to be. And if it’s not adding up to what they think, they are ready to “reign it in…?” 
Some pastors tend to be a control freaks. The history of revival shows us that genuine fire always seems to spin off into some wild fire. We must ask ourselves,
‘Do we want control without any wild fire or are we willing to “risk” a move of God even if some misinterpret it or get into the flesh?’ 
Anonymous
Waiting to see if this is a genuine revival producing holiness, changed lives, impacting the local community, exalting Christ, sanctifying the saints in TRUTH (sound doctrine), not emotionalism or decisional regeneration.
Anonymous
Duane L Burgess TRUE Dale M. Coulter Neil Steven Lawrence
Anonymous
Duane L Burgess or that so many of the Pentecostal scheduled camp meetings/revivals. Duane as I keep posting pray for what is going on but wait before any commentary on if it is from God. My sincere desire is that it is. I have been on the campus of Asbury University (college) and I have felt a glorious spirit of holiness and glory of the Lord. Much more than across the street at the seminary. — Luke 13 7So he said to the keeper of the vineyard, ‘Look, for the past three years I have come to search for fruit on this fig tree and haven’t found any. Therefore cut it down! Why should it use up the soil?’ 8‘Sir,’ the man replied, ‘leave it alone again this year, until I dig around it and fertilize it. 9If it bears fruit next year, fine. But if not, you can cut it down.’ — We need to fertilize those kids by prayer instead of all these “experts” doing videos with their advice giving to God and fund raising from man. Shame on any who watch or contribute to such quacks.
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse so you think it is fake?
Anonymous
Troy Day Give it time. I am happy that people in churches, on forums and on the news are talking about it. I believe that shows a start of a revival. I think that many copy cat schools are doing it as a fad, but even in a fad Christ can become real to many. I hate that many so called leaders will try to hijack it for their glory. My question is why didn’t it start with them. I also ask that of all the modern day so-called full gospel people and schools. Why did it start at a school which they consider not having the fullness of God and God had left them. I think this should be talked about. Right Dale M. Coulter and associates.
Anonymous
Troy Day I know that I am praising God for anytime the cold churches and the ungodly world speak of a living God visiting. We are so taken back and wonder if it is real because it is foreign to us. The early Pentecostals faced the same inspection when they were starting. They need to return to being different as they are just another dead denomination today. Dale M. Coulter any comments.
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse Id say Dale M. Coulter response is both timely and balanced as of what we know right now JUST wait 2-3 days for local cogs to jump on the revival band wagon 🙂 https://www.pentecostaltheology.com/dr-dale-m-coulter-responds-to-lee-revival-2023/
Anonymous
I would rather concentrate on Asbury and not the copycats although they may have caught the spark. I am glad that some are enjoying the presence of the Lord and not just discussing things about religion or church. I trust that the original falling at Asbury is that and leave out the copycats for now.
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse I know that some people like to draw divisions between the larger Wesleyan movement and Pentecostalism as though the latter didn’t emerge from the former but that’s ahistorical. In its early days, Asbury (and Henry Clay Morrison) was publishing the Pentecostal Herald. Across the river was God’s Bible School where William Seymour probably sat on some classes under Martin Wells Knapp. It’s all one movement with Methodist, holiness, and Pentecostal streams. Asbury happens to represent both the Methodist and holiness streams.
As for all the people wanting some doctrinal purity, I would love to survey the folks at your churches. People are people. Life is messy. The churches that can make a legitimate claim to fidelity to their confessions are usually small and tightly controlled.
As for those who want results in less than 1 week, I would say wake up and realize how much your mentality has been formed by the age of tech. You want it fast and pure in the same way that Troy sents out his daily updates via email, etc.
I’m not trying to be snippy, but I think there is a lot of unnecessary critique and criticism at this stage. And, unfortunately, a lot of it is just ahistorical. What I witnesses at Lee was faculty and administrators on the wings allowing students to pray, sing, and read from scripture. That was the rhythm of it. And, God was there.
Many criticisms are not rooted in an examination of what has actually happened on the ground at many revivals. Revivals are always messy–always. And, they almost always begin in prayer meetings. We are in the prayer meeting stage but because of social media people are blitzing it out.
I just mentioned on FB that before Azusa was Azusa, there was a prayer meeting in the Asberry home on Bonnie Brae St for over three weeks–three weeks!! People asking for longterm effects of an event that is only 1 week old are being completely unrealistic. In fact, I would suggest that you have a theology that is overly dictated by a misguided view of the supernatural as though God is simply superimposing his will on everyone. Sorry, but I’m a synergist.
So, yes, John, give it time.
Anonymous
Troy Day some may say by the outpouring at the school started due to holiness, that the holiness revival was real and the Pentecostal emotionalism. Something to think about
Anonymous
Dale M. Coulter I know of Morrison and God’s bible school – Not trying to be snippy, but you really don’t address my question but seem to be trying to impress with a history lesson. I know Cincinnati very well and have gotten students into GBS. RG Flexon was a fine man. I have also read Martin Wells Knapp. You just throw out common knowledge things and didn’t address the question. But thanks anyway
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse Lee did not catch anything. We have to stop thinking about the Spirit as some sort of virus leaping from one place to another. Lee students who had been hungry and praying saw what happened at Asbury. They decided to imitate the students there and begin a 24-7 prayer meeting. Others have joined in. That’s what is happening. I suppose you can call it “copy cats” but I would suggest that this is how revival spreads. Something breaks out somewhere and it ignites spiritual hunger in others. This usually has two responses. Some travel to the original outbreak while others start their own prayer meetings. Sometimes it’s both. We know some Lee students went to Asbury.
Look, I don’t want to make more about what is happening at Lee than is. It’s definitely not anywhere close to what is happening at Asbury. Will it be? Who knows? I prefer to say it’s a prayer meeting right now. But, it’s having a positive impact on the Lee community and the surrounding areas. People are starting to travel for evening services that are packed.
Where I do agree is that we should not compare Asbury and Lee along spiritual lines. We can talk about more numbers, longer time in existence, one is the first and the other is not, etc. But, when I’m studying early Pentecostalism, I don’t say that what happened at the Mukti Mission in India or the Hebden Mission in Toronto is qualitatively inferior because neither were close to Azusa in size and impact.
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse Your question was about whether Pentecostals should address the fact that this started at Asbury and not some Pentecostal school. I addressed it by referring to a common history. You can accept that answer or not, but it was an answer. I did not sidestep anything.
I could talk about the fact that there has been a lot of historical cross-fertilization since the healing evangelists, the latter rain, and the charismatic movement. But, you don’t want me talking about history so. . .
It’s just too simplistic to even frame the question that way. So, Randy Clark’s ministry has been steadily moving into Methodist circles, including United in Ohio and Asbury. Can we really make such hard and fast divisions? Craig Keener grew up AG and is now at Asbury. There is plenty of cross-fertilization going on to explain a lot of this.
Anonymous
One more example: Asbury just hired Emilio Alvarez who grew up in the Church of God and who’s father is still a bishop in our denomination. He is a Pentecostal who is highly liturgical. Winfield Bevins who is Anglican and has been at Asbury for several years grew up Church of God. He published on John Wesley with our denominational press (Pathway).
Again, there is a ton of cross-fertilization happening behind the scenes. I refer to it as the Pentecostalization of American Christianity. One of the major historians of the Black church in the U.S. has said that by 2050 at least half will be Pentecostal or charismatic. That’s huge.
Anonymous
Dale M. Coulter sure Dale. I have read such as Conn and Wade Phillips about the CoG, but I got more from who I consider a legit man of God. You were likely taught by Elmer Odom. He was a saintly man and knew early church of God history. I was able to interview many around Cleveland, but that was over 40 years ago and most are in heaven. I understand some about Azusa Street as I had a friend who was the daughter-in-law of one of the founders. We spoke a lot of the early days of Pentecost, From Topeka, to Houston, to LA and Chicago. It is just so many think that those who stopped at the Holiness revival are not fully with God. I dispute that fully. Where I don’t care for what has come out of ATS (personal experience) since the early 60s, I have a fondness for Asbury College (U). I have always felt the presence of God when walking on the campus. I felt it in the cemetery at Wilmore reading the tombstones of the saints like HC Morrison. I am glad the power has fallen at Asbury for to me, getting people to pray is a revival. Perhaps not like the Jesus people led by my Pastor Chuck, which resulted in verse by verse Bible studies and actual going outside walls and witnessing of the Gospel, but as Luke 13 says fertilize it. IMy hope is that Lee College will be fertilized and not exploited by those hoping to show that the CoG and Lee is still relevant today. I don’t trust some of the denom. leaders and larger church Pastors. Anyway I rejoice that people are seeking praying and talking about the Lord.
Anonymous
Dale M. Coulter lets not miss the MOST important historical players in American Pentecost
Diamonds in the “Rough and Ready” (Pentecostal Series)
– Alive, alive! (A personal testimony) – Church of God Primitivism – J.W. Buckalew – WAR ON THE SAINTS: Revival Dawn and the Baptism of the Spirit – How Jezebel Killed One of the Greatest Revivals Ever – Pentecostal Primitivism Preserved – Why revival came? by Dr. Charles Conn – Azusa Street Sermons – FORGOTTEN ROOTS OF THE AZUSA STREET REVIVAL – First person to speak in tongues in the Assemblies of God was William – Jethro Walthall of the Holiness Baptist Churches of Southwestern Arkansas – The Work of the Spirit in Rhode Island (1874-75)
Diamonds in the “Rough and Ready”
And a personal hero of mine remembered in Pentecostal history as R-n-R: Rough and Ready. I am grateful to Dr. Charles Conn for including in the 1st ed. of Like a Mighty Army this extremely significant footnote #7 (on p. 107), which embodies the stories of all ministers out there who regardless of personal struggles, difficulties and temptations take the pulpit each Sunday morning in faithfulness and preach the Gospel of Life sending another good hit into the lines of the enemy. I have it from a good source, that after your Sunday service the devil was again seen in the phone booth dialing 911…
https://www.pentecostaltheology.com/diamonds-in-the-rough-n-ready-pentecostal-series-renewed-ourcog/
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse You and I fully agree that people should not drive wedges between holiness and Pentecostal. I wrote on holiness because we Pentecostals have lost that vital doctrine in my view. I also don’t think Pentecostals have the corner on the Spirit or spirituality. I have deep respect for the holiness heritage.
Anonymous
Dale M. Coulter 100% agreed. Many wonderful saints. I do believe in the 3rd work of grace but I accept those who left and followed William Durham.
Anonymous
wondering where he would be headed next? Peter Vandever John Mushenhouse https://christiannews.net/2023/02/13/false-prophet-todd-bentley-announces-he-is-booked-to-spend-several-days-at-asbury-revival/
Anonymous
He is an ungodly man and unless he repents, I believe where he will be going last. I pray for his salvation and coming to an understanding of Christianity.
Dr. Dale M. Coulter Responds to LEE REVIVAL 2023 | Pentecostal Theology
[…] LEE follows ASBURY REVIVAL 2023 […]
Stanley Wayne
This journalism hype is much needed.
Anonymous
Neil Steven Lawrence John Mushenhouse Tony Richie Tony Edwards as a historical theologian I am concerned with 2023-1923 A.J. Tomlinson: Report Of Investigation Proceeding of Elders Council and Correspondence – Convened at Cleveland, Tennessee June 12-21, 1923 https://www.pentecostaltheology.com/the-1923-church-of-god-report-of-investigation-on-a-j-tomlinson/
Anonymous
bro Dale M. Coulter can we quote your “Lee did not catch anything” comment?
Lee did not catch anything. We have to stop thinking about the Spirit as some sort of virus leaping from one place to another. Lee students who had been hungry and praying saw what happened at Asbury. They decided to imitate the students there and begin a 24-7 prayer meeting. Others have joined in. That’s what is happening. I suppose you can call it “copy cats” but I would suggest that this is how revival spreads. Something breaks out somewhere and it ignites spiritual hunger in others. This usually has two responses. Some travel to the original outbreak while others start their own prayer meetings. Sometimes it’s both. We know some Lee students went to Asbury.
Look, I don’t want to make more about what is happening at Lee than is. It’s definitely not anywhere close to what is happening at Asbury. Will it be? Who knows? I prefer to say it’s a prayer meeting right now. But, it’s having a positive impact on the Lee community and the surrounding areas. People are starting to travel for evening services that are packed.
Where I do agree is that we should not compare Asbury and Lee along spiritual lines. We can talk about more numbers, longer time in existence, one is the first and the other is not, etc. But, when I’m studying early Pentecostalism, I don’t say that what happened at the Mukti Mission in India or the Hebden Mission in Toronto is qualitatively inferior because neither were close to Azusa in size and impact.
Anonymous
Troy Day That’s fine.
Anonymous
Dale M. Coulter https://www.facebook.com/bishoptimothymhill/videos/746705457091637/
Anonymous
All true revivals started with prayer. Let’s not forget Wales and the Hebrides.
Anonymous
https://www.facebook.com/bishoptimothymhill/videos/746705457091637/
Anonymous
AND Just like that John Mushenhouse everyone is an EXPERT on revival this week BUT if cog wants real revival to FINISH the harvest shouldnt they begin with ordaining their women as bishops and increase their ppl force of workers? Dale M. Coulter Estrelda Alexander Corky Alexander Neil Steven Lawrence Peter Vandever
Anonymous
Begin with keep still and know that I am the Lord.
Anonymous
Are we all ready in 2023 to see signs and wonders of His glory that will make us marvel? I know we are! We have big plans for 2023 as we’re believing God to see a great harvest of souls, to see more believers equipped to do the work of the ministry, and to see revival! In April, we’re going back to Lakeland to re-dig the well of revival for Peter Vandever and Gary Micheal Epping plus Derek Godfrey https://mailchi.mp/rhm.email/prophetic-word-for-2023
Anonymous
Troy Day Todd Bentley is not someone I ever followed. I had a check in my spirit about Lakeland when it happened. I was excited to hear of a revival, but then I started feeling ill at ease about it, and it turned out I was right to be concerned. I have zero interest in his ministry or another “revival” run by him. And didn’t he even say he wanted to visit Asbury? I will not state how I feel about him, as I can’t find proper words. I’ll just say he has done more damage than good, if any.
Anonymous
Derek Godfrey Bentley has claimed the fake FL revivals as his and is coming to get yall for another one in March April Easter Season Peter Vandever is following Keener on Todd not being friends of his any longer HOWEVER Keneer has NO say on Lee’s revival capped last night for the time being and especially on Sundays… so ol Pete may need a more authentic source
Anonymous
I hear these just got on sale now Terry Wiles https://www.pentecostaltheology.com/brownsville-revival-deliverance-nar-manuals/
Anonymous
Dale M. Coulter revival may NOT be “American.” but it is certainly a very WESTERN idea to start with
Anonymous
Troy Day That’s probably right in the sense of Latin-based. My guess, and it’s only a guess, is that this has to do with at least two things: 1) the rise of Islam dramatically impacts Christianity in the global south, middle east, and east. We simply cannot underestimate how deeply this impacts Christian identity; 2) the rise of lay movements occur in the west because it’s largely still developing political forms. It’s not like the Byzantine Empire where you had tight controls on everything by the 600s.
Anonymous
Dale M. Coulter this is all true though we do not see revivals in Byzantium per se BUT we do see spiritual awakenings, mass national conversions, new alphabets designed to translate the BIBLE – all and while American revival was brought about a few good Englishmen 🙂 and some others
Anonymous
Troy Day Of course! But, it’s happening in and through monasticism most of the time. The Byzantines are able to keep a tighter control of everything in the way a duke over a duchy can’t. Why do you think the Albigensians and the Cathars grow much more in the west? They come from the east preaching a kind of Christian gnosticism but take off in the west.
Anonymous
Dale M. Coulter Albigensians and the Cathars went to the west because they were persecuted while they were of the Bogomil Paulicians-Heresy on the Balkans 🙂
Anonymous
Troy Day https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/abs/cathars-in-question/cathar-links-with-the-balkans-and-byzantium/93ECD27018DC384C88FD888B1740E94B
Anonymous
Dale M. Coulter much like early primitive Pentecostals they were unsophisticated: they rejected the Orthodox Church and its material sacraments together with the Old Testament, but they accepted the New Testament as authoritative, claiming that it had been given to them by Christ NO creed NT rightly divided as only rule for life 🙂
Anonymous
Wasn’t formalism resisted by the wider Revivalist – Holiness folk?
Anonymous
So I do not get the title John Mushenhouse follow in what?
Asbury may need repentance from gay ordination OR speaking in tongues
But what is very Pentecostal Lee is praying for?
Another overseer? A new apostle like AJ Tomlinson?
Power to handle the serpent? or what else?
Dale M. Coulter Neil Steven Lawrence Peter Vandever
Anonymous
Troy Day Asbury has always believed homosexuality is an abomination. You are confused that they are UMC. They are not. Many at the seminary believe that tongues didn’t disappear with the early church. That was before Witherington and Keener. Ken Kinghorn now deceased and Steve O’Malley who taught at the ORU seminary before ATS. Kinghorn’s son is now at ATS and believes. There may be others, but while believing it isn’t their main focus
Discovering Your Spiritual Gifts: A Personal Inventory Method by by Kenneth C. Kinghorn | Jan 1, 1972 and Gifts of the Spirit which some supplied his material and were never cited – Personal experience Troy. The first book was Zondervan’s top selling book for years.—
Anonymous
Not certain in any of this Asbury facts Dale M. Coulter James Philemon Bowers but I at least not confused about their UMC affiliation John Mushenhouse
Anonymous
Troy Day Asbury is not formally affiliated with any denomination. Lots of Methodists attend but Asbury has no formal links to the UMC nor is it a UMC seminary.
Anonymous
Dale M. Coulter True – is Lee affiliated and how would this play out?
Anonymous
The following chart ends with the sermon John Wesley preached on 21st September 1735, before leaving for America. https://wesleyworks.files.wordpress.com/2014/11/register-08_heitzenrater_jwes.pdf
Anonymous
Troy Day nice chart
Anonymous
Derek Godfrey he preached on the Sabbath 14 times Dan Anthony
Anonymous
John Wesley (1703-1791) was an Oxford graduate, an Anglican priest, and led the “Holy Club” where they prayed for three hours a day to try to be a better Christian. He even became a missionary to the Native Americans in Georgia.
On October 14, 1735, John and his brother Charles Wesley departed England for Savannah aboard the Simmonds.
On February 6, 1736 he landed on what is now Cockspur Island. Wesley records,
“About eight in the morning, we first set foot on American ground. It was a small uninhabited island, over against Tybee. Mr. Oglethorpe [founder of Georgia] led us to a rising ground where we all kneeled down to give thanks. He then took boat for Savannah. When the rest of the people were come on shore, we called our little flock together to prayers.”
According to a marker, Wesley preached to his shipmates his first sermon in America, on this uninhabited island. Other historical markers will differ, but as this island was uninhabited, it’s safe to say this was not his first sermon to Americans.
On Saturday, February 7th, he would have an interesting conversation with a Moravian pastor:
Mr. Oglethorpe returned from Savannah with Mr. Spangenberg, one of the pastors of the Germans. I soon found what spirit he was of and asked his advice with regard to my own conduct.
He said, “My brother, I must first ask you one or two questions. Have you the witness within yourself? Does the Spirit of God bear witness with your spirit that you are a child of God?”
I was surprised, and knew not what to answer.
He observed it and asked, “Do you know Jesus Christ?”
I paused and said, “I know He is the Saviour of the world.”
“True,” replied he; “but do you know He has saved you?”
I answered, “I hope He has died to save me.”
He only added, “Do you know yourself?”
I said, “I do.” But I fear they were vain words.
On February 14th, some native Americans came to him. Tomo Chachi said,
“I am glad you are come. When I was in England, I desired that some would speak the great Word to me and my nation then desired to hear it; but now we are all in confusion. Yet I am glad you are come. I will go up and speak to the wise men of our nation; and I hope they will hear. But we would not be made Christians as the Spaniards make Christians: we would be taught, before we are baptized.“
Marker Inscription:
On February 6, 1736, John Wesley, the founder of Methodism, landed at Peeper (now Cockspur) Island near here and there preached to his fellow voyagers his first sermon on American soil. A monument has been erected on Cockspur Island to commemorate the event.
Sent to Georgia by the Trustees as missionary, Wesley was the third minister of the Established Church in the colony. He preached in the scattered settlements of Georgia, journeying thither by boat and over Indian trails. Wesley returned to England in 1737 after differences with his parishioners. “I shook off the dust of my feet and left Georgia,” he wrote, “having preached the Gospel there (not as I ought, but as I was able) one year and nearly nine months.”
Anonymous
walmart in a city near cleveland Alan Smith Dale M. Coulter John Mushenhouse
Anonymous
it was my concern from the start Dale M. Coulter John Mushenhouse THAT the pro gay setup @ asbury and politics @ lee will shut down ANY genuine revival AND now Brett Dobbs has broken the NEWS
Still, progressive Christians like Tim Whitaker at The New Evangelicals have essentially endorsed the “revival” after his visits to the chapel this week. Moreover, he says LGBTQ students at the school told him the university protects them from “conversion therapy”. According to Whitaker, the LGBTQ students who were “worshipping” at the chapel also say they’re especially hopeful the “revival” will create (progressive) change at the school.
https://slowtowrite.com/is-the-asbury-revival-a-real-revival/
Anonymous
Troy Day but there’s more.
Troy Day
https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/asbury-splits-from-united-methodist-church-changes-name-amid-denomination-talks/article_9512e3e6-aaea-11ec-8884-4fcb0ccb722f.html
Anonymous
Brett Dobbs yeah last year over the gay scandal I think the error is Dale M. Coulter that ppl think Asbury seminary is separate from Asbury University just across the street. Funny to me Peter Vandever Philip Williams revival didnt start @seminary but @ the univ. Just like @ lee BTW 🙂 Joseph D. Absher
Anonymous
so sorry to tell ya Larry Dale Steele Dale M. Coulter Brett Dobbs John Mushenhouse https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wo6GIgi8gj0
Anonymous
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1cPxYkiml0
Anonymous
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Os27c4qZTBY
Anonymous
will lee follow? Dale M. Coulter https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3Bpg_LCelE