Apologetics labeling Latter Rain/Third Wave/New Apostolic Reformation as a cult

Apologetics labeling Latter Rain/Third Wave/New Apostolic Reformation as a cult
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Apologetics labeling Latter Rain/Third Wave/New Apostolic Reformation as a cult are not wrong

John Ruffle [11/30/2015 5:34 AM]
I would call it a sect rather than a cult. Maybe the Wagnerions?

Peter A Vandever [11/30/2015 6:00 AM]
It is dumb and it pushing away millons of brothers and sisters.

John Ruffle [11/30/2015 7:14 AM]
It is simply a renewed Montanism

John Kissinger [11/30/2015 7:16 AM]
The Apostolic Faith (May, 1908) http://cupandcross.com/the-apostolic-faith-may-1908/ #ourCOG #Pentecostal

Brian Fulthorp [11/30/2015 12:44 PM]
he’s self-appointed in his “apostleship.”

John Kissinger [11/30/2015 12:45 PM]
Brian Fulthorp what is the alternative?

Peter A Vandever [11/30/2015 1:28 PM]
Wagner does not claim to be an Apostle. He claims there are apostles today and he is right. TL Lowery makes the same claim but no one is throwing him under the bus.

Link Hudson [11/30/2015 5:35 PM]
I don’t agree with all of Wagoner’s ideas, but I don’t think it’s fair to call the NAR America’s Taliban.

‘Third Wave’ doesn’t mean some kind of cult. It was a term Wagoner came up with as a church growth professor to describe evangelical churches that believed in spiritual gifts, but weren’t historically a part of the Pentecostal or Charismatic movements. Charismatics came a little earlier and were a part of the ‘mainline’ denominations initially.

Link Hudson [11/30/2015 5:40 PM]
I think I’ve read one of Wagoner’s books, a rather dry book from the 70’s about how your spiritual gifts can help your church grow. I’ve read bits and pieces and seen a few clips, and I’ve encountered other people with apparently similar beliefs who were from this movement. I saw an interview with Wagoner about this movement, too. He wrote an academic book trying to label as a movement churches that had ‘apostles’ as leaders and various other characteristics. Some people talked to him about being the leader of this movement or a leader of this movement later on.

I don’t think the definition of ‘apostle’ is ‘He’s so anointed, he must be an apostle.’ I don’t see their role as primarily being some sort of overarching leadership for the church, serving in a role like archbishops or cardinals in the Roman Catholic Church. We don’t see apostles trying to find existing churches and talking them into letting them be the daddy to the leaders of the church.

We do see Barnabas and Saul referred to as ‘apostles’ after the Spirit to spoke to separate them to the work. They preached the Gospel from city to city. New churches were formed. I believe in the role of apostle, but in the sense that it models the Biblical role. Paul was a father in the gospel to the Corinthians, but he had actually introduced the Gospel of Christ to them. He didn’t just show up after the church had formed and meet some emotional need of theirs to have a daddy.

John Kissinger [11/30/2015 5:41 PM]
Taliban – NO Cult – YES. Though, the talibanistic in kingdom-now and reconstruction theology is also pretty evident at a glance

Link Hudson [11/30/2015 5:44 PM]
I don’t know if the so-called ‘spiritual warfare’ is really an integral part of the NAR. That is one area where I am very concerned with what I’ve heard about Wagoner and the bits I’ve read. When I hears some of the so-called ‘spiritual warfare’– yelling at principalities– it reminds me of II Peter 2 and Jude 9. One thing we should learn about the passage is that we should not ‘speak evil of dignitaries.’ Jude illustrates this by giving an example of Michael not rebuking Satan with a harsh allegation before the Lord.

I don’t see any reason in the Bible to think that I can solve any problem by naming a demon or principality after the problem, and then rebuking the demon or principality. For example, if a city has a problem with murder, the Bible doesn’t give us any teaching or example of rebuking all the demons of murder out of that city. If a city has traffic jams, I don’t see any reason to think that I can create a ‘spirit of traffic jams’ to rebuke and kick out with a word just because I named it.

If I guess right and rebuke all the spirits of murder out of a city, and then we don’t evangelize the city and win people to Christ, might not those spirits come back with 7 times the reinforcements? The idea that rebuking all the spirits out of a city is a cure doesn’t have any Biblical backing, and it isn’t a logical idea. Paul did spiritual warfare with spiritual weapons, like the word of God. II Corinthians 10 talks about ‘casting down imaginations and every high thought….’ It is a battle in the realm of ideas that involves skillful use of the word of God.

John Kissinger [11/30/2015 5:45 PM]
‘spiritual warfare’ is a VERY integral part of the NAR – most of their international churches are based on the SLSW + business networks http://youthapologeticstraining.com/strategic-level-spiritual-warfare/

Link Hudson [11/30/2015 5:48 PM]
Lots of Gereja Bethel Indonesia churches, which are part of the global COG denomination out of Cleveland, have embraced these ideas of ‘spiritual warfare.’ It irritated me to hear them call talking to the devil and demons ‘prayer’, in the phrase ‘spiritual warfare prayer.’ I saw a lot of this in one of the Bethany churches. I visited another GBI once that had a comic book for children where a child was being bullied. The solution at the end of the book was when the bully was attacking him, he rebuked the spirit in the bully, naming the spirits in the bully after his problems, and the guy stopped attacking him.

John Kissinger [11/30/2015 5:50 PM]
Part?Hardly! GBI has far-reaching autonomy within CoG and is its largest national association. They also have many AG associations

Link Hudson [11/30/2015 5:51 PM]
GBI has AG associations? What do you mean?

John Kissinger [11/30/2015 5:52 PM]
On 5 February 1967 Bethel Full Gospel Church signed a contract of unification with Church of God. However, on October 6, 1970, due to disagreements among the leaders of the church, the church was again re-registered under the name Bethel Church of Indonesia. Ministry of Religious Affairs officially registered the church under writ ? 41 of December 9, 1972. So it really depends which exactly GBI churches you’re referring to.

Link Hudson [11/30/2015 5:55 PM]
John Kissinger I’m not sure if there are any offshoots that use the name GBI, I think churches have less freedom to do so since the government requires denominations to be registered and has been known to limit the number. They use the name GBI, but COG missionaries and missions funds went there after taking the name GBI.

John Kissinger [11/30/2015 5:56 PM]
No offhots – main stream. I dont remember the name of the guy who split over 1200 congregations, but being more during Charles Page time, may be he can recall what exactly went on then Timothy Carter

Link Hudson [11/30/2015 5:58 PM]
There was a split with Bethany maybe 10 years ago, over whether to use the names of their mother churches. GBI had a lot of large denominations within the larger denomination, the way it was set up, and a lot of smaller congregations that were just under the denomination.

John Kissinger [11/30/2015 6:00 PM]
you may be right but this is more of Charles time to remember

John Kissinger [12/02/2015 9:22 AM]
Apostolic Relevance or a New Apostolic Reformation? http://cupandcross.com/strange-fire-not-in-a-global-pentecostal-context-of-ministry/ #ourCOG

John Kissinger [12/08/2015 9:31 AM]
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2521723/posts

66 Comments

  • Reply July 31, 2019

    Casius Leonidas

    Seems like Bill Johnson (Bethel) and the NAR are moving straight into heretical teaching.
    The locals in Redding already view them as a cult…

  • Its most likely a calvinist-cessationist named this group a cult… now while believers like this adopt some strange teachings, i dont call them a cult unless it should come from the A/G; COG, Cleveland Tn.; ICFSG, and the PCOG. During the 1950’s faith healers will dealt with and expelled from the A/G. When the Pentecostals call certain teachings heretical, then i will concur with them.

  • Reply July 31, 2019

    Philip Williams

    What’s this nonsense. C Peter Wagner passed away several years ago.

  • Reply July 31, 2019

    Varnel Watson

    • Reply July 31, 2019

      Philip Williams

      Troy Day written by a worthless coward whose destiny is the lake of fire.

    • Reply July 31, 2019

      Varnel Watson

      Philip Williams sounds like a smack drive by comment Why attack the author instead of addressing the issue?

    • Reply July 31, 2019

      Philip Williams

      Troy Day the nonsense uninformed attack is coming from your own post. Someone has created a nonexistent movement to excuse their own shortcomings.

    • Reply July 31, 2019

      Philip Williams

      The attack is your post that creates an imaginary conspiracy to excuse their worthless cowardliness.

    • Reply July 31, 2019

      Varnel Watson

      Philip Williams actually I am not the author or even concerned with it as the author clearly cited Source: Charles Peter Wagner, The New Apostolic Reformation Is Not a Cult, Charisma News, http://www.charismanews.com/opinion/31851-the-new-apostolic-reformation-is-not-a-cult, Published and edited 5:00PM, 24/08/2011. (Accessed 09/09/2015.)

      I am more concern with how kingdom now theology has affected Pentecostalism with its political shamanism and how many churches are still falling into its basically Catholic trap

    • Reply July 31, 2019

      Varnel Watson

      Philip Williams come to look into it I am not even in the discussion which is greatly surprising me since I see how much Link has written under it Joe Absher will be proud of me not giving 3 strikes to baptiocostal comments 🙂

    • Reply July 31, 2019

      Joe Absher

      I am grateful even if I’m testy at times. My apologies.

    • Reply July 31, 2019

      Philip Williams

      Troy Day they also try to smear Michael Brown with this. I think he has been the focus of these attacks.

    • Reply July 31, 2019

      Varnel Watson

      Philip Williams I dont know about MB I signed me off when he started to flip the pancake on Trump – a man’s got to be known for his word What about this post though – you never said what the problem is? The facts are facts not smearing BTW Brown been flipping on NAR too

    • Reply July 31, 2019

      Philip Williams

      Troy Day Peter’s article sums up most of the Issues. I disagree with many of Peter’s ideas, but knew him to be s good man and better than most of the so-called Apostles and Prophets in this movement.

      But if your problem is Kingdom Now, maybe your problem is with me. Or with Jesus Christ who is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

    • Reply August 1, 2019

      Varnel Watson

      my problem is with the KGB Catholic made false teaching of Kingdom Now http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/?s=kgb

  • Reply July 31, 2019

    Michael D Wayne

    This really seems like a Titus 3:9 situation. I think Romans 4:4 is appropriate as a response. I have no idea why this is even on here? Then there is the whole sawdust and plank situation… but again, definitely a Titus 3:9 situation.

  • Reply August 1, 2019

    Varnel Watson

    I would really really really abstain from jumping to conclusions I dont know who runs the site on the Link but seems to be true about HillSong C3 etc Why not true about NAR Philip Williams you said you had problem with this and that You called names and sidetracked from OP – BUT when all said and done WHAT is wrong with the article? Seems like straight comment on the charisma mag publication Should it be left with no comment?

  • Reply August 1, 2019

    Philip Williams

    Judge Hillsong by what Hillsong does. Judge Charisma by what Steve Strange does. Judge C Peter Wagner by what Peter did. But first and above all judge yourself and those you follow.

  • Reply August 2, 2019

    Varnel Watson

    Philip Williams sURE – we dont judge the entity BUT the theology For this we ARE called to do for we shall judge angels for their WORKS but you are yet to confirm your vented frustration with actual disagreement from the article What made you so mad?

  • Reply August 2, 2019

    Varnel Watson

    WHAT can we take from this article?
    Someone brought it to the group several years back and here it pops up again b/c ppl feel it should be discussed

    1. NAR leaders elevate existential experiences above the Word of God and claim many “supernatural” experiences are from God – is a TRUE statement no matter if said by Wagner, Jo Mattera or Strang

    2. the 2011 NPR article was well known, many other were made in local medias by wagner and also by the 700club owner Pat R. and many of its members as well as NAR network members – the move toward kingdom now was already present and the call to take over the 7 mntns especially the political one was there

    3. the NAR move toward kingdom now political influence was called out by many politicians in the 2016 elections At least 4-5 of them sided with NAR Hillsong Bethel C3 iHOP and of course S. Baptists and in a rightists political campaign It didnt matter WHO was elected as long as post-mil reconstructionism was played in

    4. that the original Wagner article was taken down by Strang is a great recognition by itself though we can still find it on archive org and post it here for more discussion Just to show Philip Williams the facts without name calling or personal slander – the truth is out there and we are reaping the results in church today

    5. Wagner writes, The New Apostolic Reformation Is Not a Cult in NPR – a non cult should not have to state that it is a non cult

    6. it was NOT Surprising the New Apostolic Reformation has become a topic of discussion in the political media by 2011 Wagners try to bring the public political eye on the US church started in 2000 He saw it working in S America thinking this is great – lets do it here

    7. social gospel NAR ihop Kansas kingdom now postmil is all liberation theology that has damaged the church through history since Augustine and Byzantium

    8. finally – it is a catholic approach to theology designed by KGB as open export of religious revolution WHAT ELSE? We’ve seen already Ulf Ekkman turn Catholic and Copleand and others turn to the Pope…

    http://www.piratechristian.com/fightingforthefaith/2015/9/c-peter-wagners-dominionism

    • Reply August 2, 2019

      Varnel Watson

      oh yeah and M Brown jumped on the bang wagon to make a buck with his politicostalism On One of his videos that most makes NO sense not to call it otherwise he appears dumb struck asking what is nAR there is not NAR I am not NAR who is nar our enemies call it NAR – blah blah political escapism and just afraid of the antiChrist

    • Reply August 2, 2019

      Philip Williams

      Troy Day OK, let us address specific issues.

      1. Which NAR leaders elevate experiences above the word of God? Bill Johnson might, but how is he an NAR leader? Please name the NAR leaders.

      2. What is wrong with Kingdom Now? Didn’t that begin at Pentecost?

      3. I know about the Rick Perry/Mike Bickle thing. These aren’t necessarily post-mil even if Dominionists. Their error is not staying separate from the world.

      4. We definitely need liberation theology. Last I heard from Jesus, liberation theology is truth.

      5. Stop demonizing and have a discussion. Stop confusing rebuking with anger or with demonizing.

    • Reply August 2, 2019

      Varnel Watson

      In Wagner’s NAR world of Seven Mountains Mandates (and Pixie Dust), it doesn’t matter if someone is immoral and selfish-as long as they’re successful. After making excuses for Trump’s lack of moral integrity, he says this:

      “Let me point out that influence is related to spirituality in the Religion Mountain, but this is not true in any of the other six mountains that are the molders of culture. The chief producer of influence in the six non-Religion mountains is not spirituality but success. The most successful people are the most influential.”

      So, in the original Seven Mountain Mandate, Christians were supposed to take over the “seven mountains” of Religion, Business, Arts, Media, Education, Family and Government. This idea is NOT from the Bible-it’s something made up in the minds of Bill Bright and Loren Cunningham (and some other guys who probably want to take credit for it, too). This is, very generally speaking, another version of Dominionism; it’s the idea that Christians are supposed to somehow Take Over The World

  • Reply August 2, 2019

    Varnel Watson

    still unclear ? Philip Williams

    • Reply August 2, 2019

      Philip Williams

      Troy Day I have never recommended 7 mountains.

      I do think that the Church should be influencing the world by shining its light. Have you even a little one?

    • Reply August 3, 2019

      Varnel Watson

      Philip Williams well JUST Pointing out that the critical point in the theological stereotype presented here is more than needed and not easily rejected as you tried to do at first

    • Reply August 3, 2019

      Philip Williams

      Troy Day the only thing I rejected is the silly idea that the NAR actually exists as some great coalition of an antiChrist church. It was never anything but an idea in Wagner’s head which he wrote and talked about.

    • Reply August 3, 2019

      Varnel Watson

      Philip Williams it actually exists – it takes membership fees; has quarterly meetings I know several who were made apostles by Wagner’s Apostolic Council of Prophetic Elder SO for MBrown to come out with his silly video and try to wiggle it like there aint no NAR was just one portion of laughter Have you seen his video with it?

    • Reply August 3, 2019

      Philip Williams

      Troy Day I have seen plenty of silly things coming from them. It’s entirely entertainment, as the case of most everything in today’s Pentecostals.

    • Reply August 3, 2019

      Varnel Watson

      Philip Williams asking about MB video plainly denying NAR than come around later flip the pancake saying it exists

    • Reply August 3, 2019

      Philip Williams

      yawn

    • Reply August 3, 2019

      Varnel Watson

      Philip Williams WHY? just because you say you are friends dont make it perfect The guy is a flip flip and it has been since he rode the FL wave years ago and still is https://pulpitandpen.org/2018/04/24/dr-michael-brown-full-damage-control-mode-nar-debate/

    • Reply August 3, 2019

      Varnel Watson

    • Reply August 3, 2019

      Philip Williams

      Troy Day yawn

    • Reply August 3, 2019

      Varnel Watson

      yeah – its a slam dunk 🙂 Dr. Michael Brown is trying very hard to make it appear like the New Apostolic Reformation barely even exists. He’s recently completed an entire program devoted to distancing himself from the movement he doesn’t think is real. In the process of describing the thing he doesn’t believe exists, he ends up explaining some of the core beliefs of the movement itself… you know, the movement that doesn’t really exist.

  • Reply August 3, 2019

    Varnel Watson

    For many years, very few people knew of the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR) by name, though they certainly were impacted by its teachings and practices. It’s been encouraging to see more people become aware of this movement’s existence and even to see the rise of a counter-movement challenging NAR.
    But in response to this counter-movement, some voices have risen defending the leaders of this movement. Some of those voices have gone so far as to deny that the New Apostolic Reformation even exists or, if it does exist, that it’s as large and harmful as its critics, myself included, say it is. One of the strongest voices, in this regard, has been Michael Brown, author and radio host.
    During a recent podcast interview, Alisa Childers asked for my response to Brown’s claims. You can read what I said below, starting at 29 minutes into the interview. The bottom line is that Brown hasn’t clearly defined NAR. Nor does he seem to understand the essential thing that makes the NAR, NAR: i.e., the belief in the present-day governing offices of apostle and prophet. Because he doesn’t clearly define NAR, Brown errs in his conclusion that it doesn’t exist, at least not to any significant degree. It seems that Brown just doesn’t know what he ought to be looking for. Angel Ruiz

  • Reply August 3, 2019

    Philip Williams

    yawn…!

  • Reply August 3, 2019

    Varnel Watson

    all you have to do is go to the website of Bethel Church in Redding, California – Bill Johnson’s church – and read their statement that their church embraces the biblical government of apostles and prophets. Or read Bill Johnson’s writings, including the article “Apostolic Teams — A Group of People Who Carry the Family Mission.”
    As far as Ché Ahn goes, he’s chancellor of Wagner University, which was founded by C. Peter Wagner. It’s described itself as a school to raise up leaders for the New Apostolic Reformation. And you can go on their website right now and see that they offer courses on the New Apostolic Reformation and training people to be apostles. Ché Ahn also governs a very large apostolic network of over 25,000 churches and ministries that have come under his apostolic authority, and people can just go to his website, Harvest International Ministry, and look at that network.
    Mike Bickle, who Michael Brown has also defended, through the years he [Bickle] has taught that the offices of apostle and prophet are [for] today, that they’re being restored for the end time, and that they have an essential role in the unfolding of God’s end-time plans for Earth. He’s talked about these offices in his very popular book Growing in the Prophetic. He, himself, has claimed that Jesus told him, during a visit he took to heaven, that if he was faithful he’d be among a group of 35 imminent apostles, governing apostles to rise up in the last days.

  • Reply August 3, 2019

    Varnel Watson

    here’s the TRUTH Philip Williams NOW pls remember that you yourself tried to say above NAR is nothing and dont exist https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRPoZUg3Iz0

  • Reply August 3, 2019

    Davidking Manelli

    Wow

  • Reply August 3, 2019

    Davidking Manelli

    We are pray

  • Reply August 3, 2019

    Varnel Watson

    In Dr. Brown’s radio show he described some of the specific beliefs of the NAR and how he doesn’t agree with them. While it is very good that Dr. Brown has explained why he doesn’t believe in or agree with certain NAR teachings, like “Dominionism” and the NAR’s idea of authoritative contemporary Apostles, he knows (and promotes) plenty of NAR leaders who hold to these very views. Looking at all the ways that Dr. Michael Brown is closely associated with the NAR, one would have to believe in a lot of incredible coincidences to think that Brown has nothing to do with the NAR.

    • Reply August 3, 2019

      Philip Williams

      Troy Day which NAR leaders does MB promote?

    • Reply August 3, 2019

      Link Hudson

      The NAR leadets are Charismatics. Do you think that might gave something to do with it?

    • Reply August 3, 2019

      Philip Williams

      Link Hudson NAR have New Order of Latter Rain roots (Paul Cain, etc). Because they were working in the market place, the New Order of Latter Rain became teachers of the Charismatics, that very name referencing the gifts which the Latter Rain proclaimed will be restored to the church. Thus, it is the New Order of Latter Rain behind both Charismatic and NAR.

    • Reply August 3, 2019

      Link Hudson

      Philip Williams did Paul Cain go to a Latter Rain church or go to their conventions, or just teach their theology. I am unsure of a strong link between Paul Cain and NAR. Calling KC Metro NAR seems like too much of a stretch to me. Paul Cain was influential in the Vineyard and prophetic movements.

    • Reply August 3, 2019

      Philip Williams

      Link Hudson

      Paul Cain got his start with William Bradham. He was very connected to Mike Bickle until his character was discovered. Then he and Rick Joyner gave Paul Cain the boot. For sure, C Peter Wagner was also closely associated with all of them.

  • Reply August 3, 2019

    Davidking Manelli

    Yes amen brother

  • Reply August 3, 2019

    Varnel Watson

    Charles Page what was the guy and church that did early dominionism in ATL? Was it Polk Jr?

  • Reply August 3, 2019

    Link Hudson

    Paulk Jr. Taught kingdom now or so they say.

  • Reply August 3, 2019

    Philip Williams

    I’m all for Kingdom now!

    Ain’t y’all?

    • Reply August 4, 2019

      Varnel Watson

      because you are influenced by political catholicism and liberation theology designed by the KGB – bet your Pentecostal grandma wasnt kingdom now

    • Reply August 4, 2019

      Philip Williams

      Troy Day why are you thinking that nonsense about me?

  • Reply August 3, 2019

    Charles Page

    Yes Earl Paulk,, Jr and son Don and now gson Donnie

    • Reply August 4, 2019

      Varnel Watson

      thats the one just spelled different

  • Reply August 3, 2019

    Charles Page

    It’s inclusive theology

    • Reply August 3, 2019

      Philip Williams

      Charles Page Kingdom Now for me is Jesus Now.

    • Reply August 3, 2019

      Charles Page

      is it inclusive of those in alternative sexual lifestyles? Is your jesus for everyone?

    • Reply August 4, 2019

      Varnel Watson

      Philip Williams Kingdom Now for you is Jesus only

  • Reply August 4, 2019

    Varnel Watson

    I’d saY its a very NON inclusive theology OR not so inclusive theology But truth is HillSong was influences along with Bethel ihop and many others flipped the charismatic pancake on Pentecostalism and went kingdom now http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/the-hillsong-connection-a-sad-day-for-ag-denomination/

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