| Charles Page |
Who sent the plagues to Egypt? |
| Jimmy Humphrey |
Theologically correct answers are not always emotionally satisfying ones. |
| David Smith |
The Theological concepts of Gods Providence and Soverienty teach us that he is in control. The specific instance mentioned above are the result of the fall man and the existence of sin. Also, many, not all of these things are a result of mans choices and decisions (free will) |
| Robert Jamieson |
The Civil War came because of man, God did’nt hold a rifle and take sides. Your “coffee buddy” has made no room for sin’s of the flesh, but reveals he is controled by them, his simplistic thinking has made no room for the enemy of mankind, satan. His outburst of wrath maybe an indication you need a new coffee buddy, all that shouting and banging may attract a policeman…it’s already got the eye of the Holy Spirit ” do not walk with an angry man, lest thou learn his ways” |
| Mark Tague |
Either God is in complete control, or He is not. Only One of these options is worthy of worship. I trust Him beyond my capacity to understand Him. Yes, He is in control. No I can’t explain the bad things that happen. Neither do I feel compelled too. My only job is to be His man wherever I am and allow Him to manifest His peace through me to a hurting world. |
| Nelson Banuchi |
Mark Tague, can God choose to have ultimate but not complete (exhaustive and minute) control? |
| Mark Tague |
We cannot understand His level of control. All of our conceptions of control are finite. He is infinite. I was staying just that. I don’t understand it enough to have a deep theological discussion about it. I just trust that He is in control. |
| Nelson Banuchi |
Mark Tague, then you don’t mean that either God is in “complete control” or he is *not* in control *at all.* Is that correct? |
| David Lewayne Porter |
The book of Job, the entire book – even in bad situations God has preset limits. I think the conversation starting in chapter 38 covers it in a very clear explanation and answer. |
| Bibliata Net |
in order to be in complete control GOD MUST know everything Ricky Grimsley |
| David Smith |
It’s called omniscient. |
| Ricky Grimsley |
I keep searching for omniscient in the bible but i cant find it. If God is in complete control everything is completely pointless settled from the world began. Everything is just a movie being played out and free choice just an illusion. |
| Jimmy Pearson |
The answer to all of the above is yes. Right answers don’t always feel good. God is sovereign in all things even the ones we can’t understand. |
| Nelson Banuchi |
While God is in ultimate control, he has *chosen* to not be in exhaustive, minute (i.e. complete) control. |
| Kevin Clark |
Here is one that is famous , “Everything happens for a reason.” Should it be better said that, “God can TURN any season for His reason.” |
| Ricky Grimsley |
Like Nelson Banuchi stated God is in ultimate control. He could make the world not exist if he wanted. However, what he does desire is the libertarian free-will choice of love from his creatures. If God already knows the future exhaustively then as a fact then everything is just an illusion perhaps even just a thought of God. |
| Nelson Banuchi |
Ricky Grimsley, it seems you have the impression that foreknowledge is determinative. Is that correct? |
| Ricky Grimsley |
Im saying that exhaustive foreknowledge requires a settled future. |
| Nelson Banuchi |
By settled, do you mean necessarily?That is, because God knows that, for example, tomorrow I will trip on my way house steps on my way to work, will I trip necessarily because God knows I will trip? |
| Ricky Grimsley |
If you believe that all this is settled then yes it is settled because knows that you will trip and he chose to create you with that predetermined outcome. |
| Nelson Banuchi |
Ricky Grimsley IMO, then, it seems you have it backwards. Things occur not because God knows they will occur, but God knows because it will occur.Foreknowledge does not predetermine future events. God’s knowledge of what will occur is settled but the events themselves occur freely. If I trip, I trip freely, due the whatever circumstances occurred beforehand; however, I did not trip because God foreknew I would trip; and it did not occur necessarily because God foreknew. |
| Ricky Grimsley |
Actually my position is that the causation is irrelevant. For it to be known the future has to already exist. Imo it doesn’t. Otherwise God cant test us because he already knows. He cant change his mind and learn to have emotions. How can we be blamed for doing what he created us knowing we would always do? I just dont see it. |
| Nelson Banuchi |
Ricky Grimsley, “For it to be known the future has to already exist.”1. I’m not sure that is, at least, entirely correct. A simple example: We know the sun is going to shine tomorrow, yet it has not yet occurred.2. I’m also not sure that God cannot test what he already knows will occur. That he knows does not guarantee its occurrence. This is where causation is relevant because it seems you are making foreknowledge determinative; that is, you seem to be suggesting that God’s foreknowledge of future events is the cause of that future event.3. God tested Abraham. God knew what would be his response. But that God knew did not cause the response. Abraham was under no necessity to do or not do what he did or did not do; he feel chose to offer his son as sacrifice. That God may have foreknown the outcome dies not mean it was fixed. Abraham could have easily acted other than he did, and if that would have been the case, God would have foreknown it.Let me put it this way as it just came to my mind: what is fixed is not the future but God’s knowledge of the future. |
| Ricky Grimsley |
Well in the case of Abraham the scripture actually says (now I know) not i already knew. There will come a day when the son wont shine. I can assume by my eschatology that day wont be tomorrow. We can argue whether or not God’s foreknowledge is determinative or not but at the end of the day if you believe that God already knew whether or not you would go to hell then i dont know what the practical difference is. There are scriptures that we all seem to disagree on about God changing his mind and being surprised or having emotions. I get it. Almost everyone i know falls into the arminian category. The problem is that even believing God has emotions raises a red flag in my book. Obviously i believe God has emotions but on what basis can God be angry about something that he created people knowing they would do. How can he “experience” anything having already known it. The fact that he will take pleasure from accomplishing all the things he said he would do is a giant paradox if he already experienced the pleasure at creation or maybe even before when he just thought? |
| Nelson Banuchi |
Ricky Grimsley (1) If I knew that God knew I was going to hell, the practical difference is (a) God did not predestine me for hell; (b) I go to hell of my own free-will (well, actually, I don’t think anyone – in their right mind – goes to hell of their own free-will, but they do that which determines their choice of destinies available, i.e., either heaven or hell); (b) I will be sent to hell contrary to God’s loving intentions; (c) God simply knows the choice I make will be hell. He does not predetermine that my choice would be hell; (d) In the act of choosing, regardless of what God actually foreknow, was always the freedom for me to choose otherwise.Like I stated: Divine foreknowledge is what is settled; future events, especially those related to free will choices, are contingent.I will admit, on the surface, it seems it was only at the moment of Abraham’s act to sacrifice his son that God knew. Nevertheless: (a) Abraham still could have done otherwise (of course, if the were the case, then God would have foreknown that choice); (b) That God may have foreknown, again, does not predetermine the choice Abraham makes. Foreknowledge in no way equals foreordination.Again, what is fixed is not Abraham’s act to sacrifice his son, but God’s knowledge that Abraham would do so. Abraham possessed every freedom to do otherwise; but God whatever Abraham would choose, would be foreknown by God.I think such knowledge is called “simple foreknowledge.”As far as God knowing for certain at the moment of Abraham’s act that he would be faithful, your understanding may be faulty for two reasons:(a) This incomplete knowledge of the future attributed to the divine being poses a threat to the certain accomplishment of the divine will. If God cannot know future events, he cannot know, at least, for certain that Abraham would always remain faithful throughout his life with the result that God would be free to accomplish his will through Abraham. There would always be the *real* possibility Abraham would fail and God would need to choose another (who, also might fail).(b) You may be attributing to little to the understanding of what the phrase “I know now” means. That God’s simple foreknowledge of Abraham’s demonstration of faithfulness is not simply that, knowledge, but an experience in the being of God. I may know my daughter will wash the dishes as asked, but to see her actually doing it is an experience – knowledge complete – a knowledge based on or accompanied by experience. And that would also answer to your question regarding emotion. There is no need for me to be or feel happy when I ask my daughter to do dishes or know that she will do them; but, once I see her doing the dishes, I will experience emotion…joy!Does this help? |
| Ricky Grimsley |
I completely understand your reasoning. I was raised this way. I just disagree. How many scriptures are you wiling to say “yes i know thats what is says but what it really means is …….” |
| Ricky Grimsley |
This is what i would say if i was as articulate. http://youtu.be/NfeoRt_Zg54 |
| Ricky Grimsley |
I dont see why arminians and calvinists cant see they both believe in an unchangeable future where all facts are resolved before the world began. They just argue over whether God actually predetermined it or already saw it play out in his mind. The crux gist of either side is the facts are settled. |
| Nelson Banuchi |
Isn’t it contradictory to suggest that, on the one hand, the “unchangeable future where all facts are resolved” (resolved = settled) and, on the other hand, “the facts are settled”? |
| Ricky Grimsley |
My point in this was that i think calvinism and arminianism both believe in a future where all facts are already exhaustively settled. They just disagree on the who causes it. I am an open-theist. |
| Timothy Carter |
There you again Ricky Grimsley, making fun of Armenians because you don’t know what are Armenians believe. Apparently, people who follow your training of NON-thinking believe that God is too weak to be in control. These people who do not know how to think, or are too lazy to think, want to blame, God for all of the bad. Yes, God was in control during these bad times. Was God in control when the flood that Noah predicted wiped out every person on the planet? According to the non-thinkers, it’s impossible for God to being in control because somebody died.Was God in control when Jesus died on the cross? According to the non-thinkers, this to call God off guard because God is too pathetic to know anything. These non-thinkers also believes that God is too pathetic to have done anything about it even if He had know. The god these non- thinkers, want to claim to not have been in control is nothing more than a Dagon are a fat ugly cookie jar like Budda. |
| Ricky Grimsley |
You are awful condescending. I most certainly understand what you “say” you believe. My belief has nothing with a weak God. I certainly understand that God has all power and can do whatever he wants. However, it is obvious to me that he set parameters and works within them. He allows us libertarian free-will to choose him and is therefore not in control of that. Not because he cant be but because he doesnt want to be. Just like you would not want to force your wife to love you. Your condescending tone is unbecoming. Also obviously God was in control of flooding the the earth. It was his idea. But he most certainly did not decide to do it before he created man. |
| Timothy Carter |
Make up your mind, did He choose to do it before or after creation? I’m glad my tone sound condescending. It means I’m communicating well. I am intentionally making fun of the idea that God is pathetic like a cookie jar set up in a restaurant. |
| Ricky Grimsley |
There i edited my post to say he did not decide to flood the earth before creation. |
| Ricky Grimsley |
If the god you describe is so powerful why did have to make the future with all events predetermined? |
| Timothy Carter |
Ricky Grimsley, Arminianism, nor I have ever said that God has pre-determined the future. You are the one that keeps saying this garbage. |
| Ricky Grimsley |
Because exhaustive foreknowledge requires a completed future whether or not you believe that. |
| Ricky Grimsley |
Yes most arminians say they have free-will but its a fallacy if you believe God already knew your “free-will” choices. Because they already happened in God perfect foreknowledge. |
| Ricky Grimsley |
This isnt isnt a “non-thinkers” position. It is taking what people say they believe to it conclusion or its beginning. Its about being consistent. |
| Nelson Banuchi |
Timothy Carter, It’s Arm-i-nian…not Arm-e-nian… |
| Ricky Grimsley |
Be nice Nelson Banuchi |
| Nelson Banuchi |
Ricky Grimsley No insult intended. I was just making a needed correction for his future reference. |
| Timothy Carter |
Thanks, for your help, Nelson Banuchi. 🙂 |
| Nelson Banuchi |
Timothy Carter You’re welcome. |
| Nelson Banuchi |
Ricky Grimsley: Some corrections:RG: “exhaustive foreknowledge requires a completed future.”Me: “exhaustive foreknowledge” means simply that all that is future is known; it does not complete the future.RG: “I think calvinism and arminianism both believe in a future where all facts are already exhaustively settled. They just disagree on the who causes it.”Me: (1) Future events are not exhaustively settled by God; they are exhaustively known by God. (2) Like I stated before, what is settled is not the future but what God knows. (3) Again, by your comment that Arminians/Calvinists “disagree on the who causes it” (i.e. future events), it seems you are maintaining the error that foreknowledge is the cause of future events. That may be the Calvinist view but it is not the Arminian view. Divine foreknowledge (DF) simple knows future events; DF does not in any way determine, cause, or fix it, at least, not with respect to man’s free will. |
| Timothy Carter |
Ricky Grimsley, I have said to you, at least 40 times, over the past week, that you, do not know what you’re talking about, when it comes to Arminian believe. But, you continue to tell the same stupid stuff. Arminianism is the opposite of Calvinism.Pick up a book and read it.Why are you afraid to study? Why are you afraid of the Truth? |
| Ricky Grimsley |
And yes thank God that he can bring good out of evil plans against us. |
| Charles Page |
Ricky, who believes in an unchangeable future where all facts are resolved before the world began? who? |
| Ricky Grimsley |
Virtually everyone I know especially in this forum. |
| Ricky Grimsley |
Anyone who believes in God having exhaustive foreknowledge has to believe that the future is settled. That is the only way it can be known. |
| Tom Steele |
So, the Bible is full of instructions and consequences. The instructions are generally clear, “Do this,” or, “Don’t do that.” The consequences are determined by whether or not you follow the instructions. Think of the owner’s manual in your car. It tells you to change the oil at a certain interval. The old rule was every 3 months or 3,000 miles, but newer cars go a bit longer, generally about 5,000 miles. If you follow the instruction, your car will continue to function as designed. If you neglect the instruction, it is just a matter of time before the car breaks down. The company who manufactured the car is ultimately in control, right? The made it, wrote the owner’s manual, etc. But, once you purchase the car, responsibility for maintaining it shifts from the manufacturer to the owner. God made everything that exists. When He created man, he gave creation into our hands to care for it (Genesis 1:28). The responsibility shifted from God’s hands into man’s hands. Yes, God is in control, but what would happen if you never changed the oil in your car and then tried to take it back to the manufacturer after it broke down? Even if it was still under warranty you’d be out of luck, because you didn’t do your part. We can’t get mad at God simply because there are bad things that happen as a result of people not following the owner’s manual… The Bible… which results in negative consequences. Until all is fulfilled and we are living in the eternal kingdom where everyone living is following the instruction manual, there will be bad things taking place in the world. It doesn’t change the fact that God is still ultimately in control. |
| Charles Page |
bad things do happen to good people. |
| Ricky Grimsley |
Yes they do. There is no doubt that God in his sovereignty allows things to happen that we can overcome and he can be glorified. However, sometimes bad stuff happens because we get out of his will. No matter what though we have the promise that Romans 8:28 KJVS[28] And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. |
| Charles Page |
bad things that cannot be overcome happen to good people. |
| Wahyu |
Yes they do sir. Why I’m not a minister anymore |
| Wahyu |
Ultimate sovereignty is not the same as continual interference |
| Charles Page |
He seems to be continually interfering in my life! |
| Wahyu |
Lol the devil or God? |
| Charles Page |
John Conger the devil is imprisoned in chains in a special place in hell (bottomless pit) |
| Kevin Clark |
Maybe I’m missing your point John Wager. So is Adam and Eve to be blamed for their disobedience or God? |
| Charles Page |
We all bear the judicial curse because Adam’s disobedience. |
| Kevin Clark |
Forget what i said, i read further and got my understanding. My mistake. |
| Wahyu |
Agree with Charles Page. The idea that when bad things happen it’s because people are not following scripture is naive at best and shows a lack of wisdom and life experience |
| Charles Page |
couldn’t agree more!! |
| Stan Wayne |
It is an unsolvable mystery involving evil good God the Fallen state – why does the thing need resolution |
| Timothy D McCune |
I have a question for you Jim Price what is your answer to your coffee buddy? I believe God is in control of everything the evil that happens is a result of the sin in the world, i may not understand the type of control it takes but I am not God and i am on no position to question Him. |
| Jim Price |
I believe in mystery, that we see through a glass darkly and that I do not count myself to comprehend or as Paul said to apprehend. |
| Jim Price |
Some of my preacher friend’s use the phrase; ” God is good all the time.” They take this from the statement that God is love. Solomon said that time and chance happeneth to all men. |
| Timothy D McCune |
Jim what is your response to him? |
| Jim Price |
That his point is just as strong as the opposing point; I live with a lot of unanswered questions. |
| Charles Page |
there are faulty dualisms |
| Timothy D McCune |
Jim i do not wish to be harsh or to take a disrespectful tone with you. I do not know you and you do not know me. I believe your answer to your friend is not good enough you should know without a doubt what you believe, on this issue. I also believe sir you like to pose this type of question to stir the pot, to see what kind of reaction you will get. If iam wrong please let me know. Again i do not wish to be harsh or disrespectful. |
| Kevin Clark |
Nothing wrong with stirring the pot. Keeps everything from getting crusty on top and the sides. |
| Timothy D McCune |
True Kevin. |
| Jim Price |
I am a faulty person. Have studied and taught the scripture for 66 years and there are some things that I still don’t get. I have a lot of questions to ask when I get over to the other side. |
| Ricky Grimsley |
I think the real test is when you have to look some young lady in the eye and say”sorry you dad raped you and put cigarettes out you, but God was always in control.” I wont have to say that. I think its a great pot to stir up because we all have to comfort people and be ready to answer people’s questions.n |
| Timothy D McCune |
Sorry folks i gotta go back to work. God bless you all |
| Timothy Carter |
Jim Price, it sounds like your buddy is very immature. Banging the table with his fist, sounds very immature. It also sounds like he’s angry at God. This anger is because world events do not happen according to the way the table pounder desires. God is in control. God will do what pleases God. God does not have to check with some inmature table pounder before He allows something to take place.God does not consult the advice of an immature table pounder before God reacts. Because God is in control, and God does not need the dictation of people such as the table pounder, these individuals blame that God is incapable of being in control.These inmature table abusers, have not yet reached the maturity level, to understand, that God does not need the counsel of anyone. They need to read the book of Job.Was God in control when Job lost his children? Was God in control when any other bad thing happened to Job? The table of abusers of the world are no better then jobs so called friends. They are calling themselves, a friend of God, yet they criticize every choice God makes. |
| Wahyu |
That’s a lot of assumptions. I get frustrated when people say God is in control because what most people are meaning is that whatever is happening is being orchestrated by God. And that is absurd. Does God bring judgement sometimes? Of course! Is everything that happens God’s will? Of course not. But that’s what is popular as a teaching now days |
| Bibliata Net |
hey Timothy Carter dont worry about any legal ramifications for counseling out of state without licenses 🙂 Hope you have a good insurance for your counseling practice |
| Timothy Carter |
What are you talking about? At what point have I said, that I’m going to be counseling out of state?If you’re trying to make some connection with my belief in counseling, and the fact that I believe God is always in control, then please make your point more clear.I do not have to agree with, every theological, wind of doctrine, to be a good counselor. |
| Bibliata Net |
“… angry at God. This anger is because … : 🙂 |
| Timothy Carter |
The table abusers are angry at God, because God did not prevent, or interact, with humanity the way they desired. Therefore, they want to believe that God cannot possibly be in control. |
| Timothy Carter |
Not every person means that God is causing the evil to happen, like a puppeteer pulling the strings of his evil little puppet.To become upset and beat up the table does not solve the equation.God is in control.Regardless, of the bad choices that man chooses to make, God is in control. Man, cannot take control away from God. It is absolutely stupidity for anyone to think that God loses control.Bad things happen, Big deal. God is still in control.Good things happen, Big Deal. God is still in control.For someone to believe otherwise, they do not have a proper understanding, in the true God.What do the table of users assume? Do they assume that Jim Carrey’s movie, Bruce Almighty, is real? Do they assume that just because something to place that does not a please, a table abuser, that Jim Carrey was in control at the time? Or maybe God gave his control over to a monkey for a few hours? Or maybe, God is like Baal, just as Elijah ask those priest, ” what’s the matter has he going to the bathroom? Or maybe he’s going on vacation, or maybe he’s just asleep.”The table abusers may God sound as pathetic as, Baal. Elijah knew that God is always in control.If we are to be true believers, we too must always know that God is in control. Regardless, if it pleases self, God is in control. |
| Ricky Grimsley |
We all understand that God is in control. We all understand that God set the parameters for Satan to work against Job. I have never argued that God is not ultimately in control. |
| Ricky Grimsley |
You ridicule my position for stuff that i do not say. |
| Timothy Carter |
I am NOT cleaning that you ever mentioned Job. Don’t sit there and type lies.My mention of Job, is the same thing as when you, or anyone else post a Bible scripture address to support their argument.Don’t pretend, that you are so stupid you can’t comprehend this. You know full well, that I am referring to Job, as an example. You know I have never accused you of talking about Job. |
| Ricky Grimsley |
I dont even understand what you are referring to. |
| Timothy Carter |
Ricky Grimsley, of course you don’t understand. Just as you don’t understand many things. |
| Ricky Grimsley |
My point in every discussion about this kinda stuff is that i do not see the practical difference between God predestinating us before the world began or creating us having exhaustive foreknowledge. You are still left with an unchangeable future. I dont believe that God works that way. |
| Nelson Banuchi |
I think your problem may be that you may be confusing God’s activity in predestinating with God’ passive act of foreknowing. Dove foreknowledge in no way affects or effects what we will do. Note a verse reads something to the effect that, “those whom he foreknew, he predestinated,” not “those whom he predestinated he foreknew.”Again, divine foreknowledge does not make our future acts necessary and it does not obliterate freedom of will and action; that is, whatever God sees a person to have actually done, they could have very will done otherwise (and, if they did otherwise, it would be foreknown). |
| Ricky Grimsley |
I know that God does “foreknow” some. I just dont believe that he foreknows everyone. Notice the the ones he foreknew……he predestined them. Now we now for sure that not everyone is conformed to the image of his son so i feel he did not foreknow them all. Just saying most people pick out the part of that verse they want to see. |
| Nelson Banuchi |
Ricky Grimsley, are you saying God did not foreknow those who would not be conformed into Jesus’ image? |
| Ricky Grimsley |
Im saying the ones he did foreknow, he predestinated. I just dont feel like i know anyone who is “predestinated”. I seems to me that all he foreknew where predestinated to be conformed and we know many who arent. So imo god did not foreknow them at all. Like depart from me i never knew you. Yes i understand that is relational but i think the concept is the same. |
| Nelson Banuchi |
Ricky Grimsley Then, your suggesting something like saying, “Those whom God fore-*loved*,” correct? |
| Ricky Grimsley |
I Wouldn’t say foreloved.I would say that God sees what he has to do to get things done. I think God foreknew David and wanted to make him king because jacob prophesied “the sceptre will not depart from Judah….” But the children of Israel demanded a king before david was ready so God gave them Saul. butI really struggle with predestination. My position is in flux. Thats why i am in this forum to begin with. So i can argue things and let people give me ideas and poke holes in my arguments so i can learn better positions. Right now i would say that God predestines some to make his purpose happen. Like john the baptist for instance , or David. |
| Ricky Grimsley |
Here is what i would say. If i was as articulate. http://youtu.be/gApXDGjyksw |
| David Lewayne Porter |
I think (to be very clear) that we need to see the working relationship between God’s foreknowledge – yes exhaustive, (predestination) by God of mankind – Corporately and personally, and the personal freewill of redeemed as well as sinful man.All are legitimate and sound Bible doctrines. If we agree on that then,If we can’t get these, all of these to work together in Unity at the same time the issue is our theology and understanding of God. The issue is not that “said” God. So then the simple question is, Can any of the personal daily choices of sinful, fallen, unredeemed, unrepentant mankind or the choices of His redeemed saints work mankind out from under what God knew inadvance would take place thus changing His (predetermined) actions and decisions at the end of time? |
| Ricky Grimsley |
Not at the end of time. The things written in God’s word will come to pass just like he said. Its the middle i feel is open. If you believe in Exhaustive foreknowledge nothing has ever changed from God’s original thought at creation. There is no room for free-will and God to work together because its all settled. |
| Nelson Banuchi |
Ricky Grimsley: “God foreknew David”1. How could God foreknow David or even know he would exist if he does not know the future choices/actions of his parents? 2. How could God know he would be king if does not know David’s and the people’s future choices/actions?3. How can God inspire any sort of prophecy of any future event with certainty it will occur if God does not know the future choices/actions of free will creatures?4. How can God know anything, at least, for certain, if he cannot know future choices/actions of free will creatures? |
| Ricky Grimsley |
God knows every possibility and he works things to his will. He makes plans. God had a plan and created David for that plan. However, the children of Israel wanted a king before David was ready and he picked Saul to fill that time frame. Jacob said the sceptre wont depart from Judah yet God picked a benjamite first. |
| David Lewayne Porter |
Simply stated, I believe God knows everyone in detail, and that being the case I believe He already knows all the details. My personal belief. |
| Ricky Grimsley |
I hear ya. Thats just part of he discussion. God certainly knows the intents of our hearts and knows why we make the choices we make even if we dont. I just believe that is based on watching us not knowing it before we were born. Even by seeing the very details of how our synapses fire. |
| David Lewayne Porter |
What most people see as changes or adjustments to what God must not have forseen. I see them as the next step of Revelation in God’s pre-conceived pre-thoughout intentional plan.Example (Elijah and the widow woman).God in 1 Kings 17 told Elijah that he “have commanded” a widow woman to sustain thee – as in already, yet it caught her totally off guard when Elijah asked her to. So either Elijah asked the wrong one and God blessed him and used her any way or God knew the widow woman and Elijah (and this situation) before and better than they did.Just my thoughts. |
| Ricky Grimsley |
Good thoughts and i certainly agree that God knows people and what they will do based on his infinite knowledge of what is. Where my disagreement is that God knew that from before the world began. |
| David Lewayne Porter |
Ricky GrimsleyFriendly question, Why would He not know?Here is something else I like to ponder when I am alone (as stated about Jesus in the flesh), John 21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.).So just a thought,How much more is there to know about God the Father that hasn’t been communicated to us due to lack of time and our inability to comprehend it right now? |
| Bibliata Net |
Let’s stick to the King James Bible Ricky Grimsley Isaiah 45:7I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. |
| Ricky Grimsley |
I wouldnt interpret that to mean sin. I would say he was using a contrast of peace such as calamity. He most certainly judges and brings harm to people when he decides to. |
| Bibliata Net |
sin No – evil Yes; the opposite would be that there’s another source of creation of moral and knowledge in the Universe beside God |
| David Lewayne Porter |
Great discussion, God did not create sin, but he did create the instrument that would be used in conjunction with man’s freewill to introduce sin.It all worked together. Now some would explain that fall as God after the fall set up another series of actions in response to the fall of man.Yet I believe Jesus being a Lamb slain before the foundation of the world shows that God just revealed His plan (which He already knew and had previously planned for).As I referenced on another post, I believe this is brought to light in the scripture reference Galatians 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, (the entire chapter is awesome).I believe (fulness of time) shows that Christ was already there just waiting for human history to advance to the place in time for Him to simply be revealed and thus He stepped out of eternity and into time. It was simply the revelation of what God had already purposed.That is my personal explanation and theology. |
| Timothy Carter |
Armenian does not claim the future is unchangeable. |
| Timothy Carter |
This is why I ridicule. You are making claims about other people’s belief that you don’t know enough about.I am pointing out, that you don’t know what you’re talking about.James Armenian, never said that the future is unchangeable. That is ricky who made such a foolish claim. |
| Ricky Grimsley |
Tim Timothy Carter you do not understand. One more time….my issue is with the claim that God has exhaustive foreknowledge. For that to be, the future has to be settled at least in God’s mind. Therefore, i believe that God has exhaustive foreknowledge that you are denying we have free will regardless of how you spin it. |
| Timothy Carter |
Ricky Grimsley, you are frequently stating, things to show you disapprove of the teachings of the Armenians.When you do this foolishness, you are belittling, thousands, and thousands, and thousands, and thousands and…, theologians.You are belittling, my denomination and every member.You are belittling, my entire education.You are literally the theology, of most of my friends.You are constantly insulting the Armenian believe. You do this on the basis that you don’t know what you’re talking about.Yes, you want to get your little feelings hurt, when I point out that God is in control. You want to get upset because I use the example of Job.You are upset, because I really feel your position. When you are constantly telling lies against my position.I have suggested to you on numerous occasions to study. I have said it to you, as well as others have stated to you, that Armenians do not believe what you accuse us of.Because, you are constantly making fun of, and telling lies on, my faith, I don’t believe you have any right to be defensive about my intentional ridicule of your lies. |
| Charles Page |
Ricky, God’s omniscience is NOT exhaustive His election is an unconditional act called foreknowledge. He elects freely and unconditionally. You want but cannot have a salvation that is universal. |
| Charles Page |
Arminians, Timothy, not Armenians. Armenians are people of Turkish genocide. |
| Timothy Carter |
Thanks, Charles Page. This displaced people group, were persecuted for their faith. But, you are right they are not the ones I’m referring to. |
| Ricky Grimsley |
Ok Timothy Carter. First, im not aware of any ridicule on my part. If i have, then I apologize. Second, almost everyone i know is arminian including my denomination, my church and my pastor. I never speak to them in a disrespectful manner. Third lets just deal with one point. Do you believe that God has perfect knowledge of the future? |
| Timothy Carter |
Are you claiming, that something about God is not perfect? God is perfect. Everything about God is perfect.You want to claim, that you have not ridiculed, the belief system of the Arminian’s? HA-ha-Ha-Ha, come on tell another joke.Almost, everything you post, is ridiculing, and belittling, the Arminian faith. |
| Timothy Carter |
You post lies about this faith. You claim this faith believe things they do not. This is disrespectful, and it is classified as ridicule. Yet, you want to claim you have not done this. You do this in almost every post. |
| Ricky Grimsley |
I already apologized for offending you. It was not my intent. Disagreement doesn’t equal belittling. I think believe foreknowledge excludes free will and you dont. Lets just leave it at that. Since we have left the issues and went to personal attacks and accusations, nothing more can be gained from our interaction. Again i apologize if you feel i belittle your denomination. Ive been in the church of god for 42 years. I most understand and respect it. I just disagree with arminianism. |
| Charles Page |
Jim, keep your coffee-drinking buddy. He sounds like he believes strongly and with passion. Few and far in between are friends like that. |
| Jim Price |
Dispensationalism was a term I heard a lot when I lived near the Moody Bible institute. Was also taught by Scofield and others, which of course means that God had and has different plans and reactions for different times in history. You can see a lot of this on the web. I am somewhat surprised that the Pentecostals on this site have taken for the most part the Calvinistic view on the questions i raised. Here is a quote from the Moody church web site. ” At The Moody Church, we wholeheartedly hold to dispensational thought. These rich, historical doctrines are woven into the very fiber of our church’s teaching. However, in no way do we desire to alienate anyone from worshipping together with us who holds a different view of the prophetic Scriptures. Indeed, it is possible to be member of The Moody Church and hold to some other variation of eschatological teaching. So again; is God in total control in this dispensation? |
| Timothy Carter |
Yes, Jim Price, keep your coffee drinking buddy. However, you may want to reinforce your table. Or, at the very least, have a lid on your coffee cup. All that banging on the table, could spell that hot coffee right over on you, brother. LOL |
| Timothy Carter |
LOL |
| Stan Wayne |
Jim – to believe in the pre tribulation rapture is to be a dispensationalist – this is very common among Pentecostals – I too am dispensationalist – but how that intersects with God’s control issues in this dispensation is beyond me – God opts for control and delegation of control at the same time, right? |
| Timothy Carter |
Stan Wayne, you do not have to be a dispensation to believe. I don’t believe, in dispensationalism. Most respected theologians that I know, are not dispensationalist. However, we believe, in the pre tribulation rapture. |
| Charles Page |
premillennial dispensationalism renders God an absentee landlord. |
| Tom Steele |
Charles Page states, “We all bear the judicial curse because Adam’s disobedience.” The John Conger says, “Agree with Charles Page. The idea that when bad things happen it’s because people are not following scripture is naive at best and shows a lack of wisdom and life experience.” Is there anyone who does not agree that the entire reason there is evil in the world and bad things happen even to good people is a direct result of Adam’s initial disobedience to the Word of God? After all, up that point God had only given two instructions: 1. To be the stewards of creation (Genesis 1:26) and 2. Not to eat of one tree that was in the midst of the garden (Genesis 2:17). If we can all agree that the entire reason there is evil in the world is a direct result of Adam’s disobedience, than we MUST, by default, admit that the reason bad things happen to people, even good people, is because of people (at the very least one man at the beginning of creation) not following Scripture. From there, we can build the foundation that all evil is a direct result of disobedience, disregard, or even shear ignorance of Scriptural instructions. |
| Timothy Carter |
Brother, Tom Steele, you are correct. Evil, and all of the results of evil, are because of, disobedience to the known, and revealed, will of God. When humans disobey, this creates chaos. This does not mean God is not in control.This, simply means, that humans do not obey. |
| Tom Steele |
There are clear connections between every evil in the world today and a disregard by someone to the basic instructions in God’s Word. |
| Stan Wayne |
Timothy – unfortunately you apparently do not know what dispensationism is |
| Timothy Carter |
Stan Wayne, the basic idea of dispensationalism, is believe that God has categorized everything, into small compartments of time. |
| Charles Page |
God changes specific revelations of Himself for each dispensation |
| Bibliata Net |
A true Pentecostal cannot believe in a theory that limits the move of the Holy Spirit to one dispensation of human history only… |
| Timothy Carter |
AMEN!!!!!! |
| Charles Page |
Тв, you just sunk the dispy ship, it is full of pantycostals! |
| Wahyu |
Introduction of evil into the world because of mans fall is one thing. The idea that every traumatic event in our lives is a direct result of disobedience is what’s absurd. Jesus dealt with this already. Luke 13There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. 2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things? 3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. 4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? {sinners: or, debtors} 5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth. 2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? 3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him |
| Timothy Carter |
Still, again God is in control. God is still in control, in every situation. |
| Wahyu |
Are you saying everything is orchestrated by God? So if your daughter got raped you’d say that was God? Just trying to understand your point. I’ve already said God is sovereign and can step in at any moment but does not for his own reasons. |
| Ricky Grimsley |
But who sleeps with their doors unlocked? |
| Timothy Carter |
John Conger, your question seems more appropriate for a Muslim. It is they who believes their demon, does bad things, or wills bad things, such as child, rape or molestation.This, is not the Christian view. God does not, desire for someone to be raped. |
| Ricky Grimsley |
It was a question for you not for allah |
| Ricky Grimsley |
Matthew 23:37 KJVS[37] O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! |
| Ricky Grimsley |
John 11:35 KJVS[35] Jesus wept. |
| Timothy Carter |
Ricky Grimsley, I did not think that, the question was addressed to Allah. I knew, the question was directed to me.I never even remotely indicated, that the question was directed to, Allah. I said this question seems more appropriate for a Muslim.Where do you get the idea that I think the question is for Allah? |
| Timothy Carter |
|
| Ricky Grimsley |
Again skirting the question. |
| Timothy Carter |
RickyI am NOT skirting the question.I have not avoided anything I already answered the question.Why don’t you read? When you read pay attention? I did not say this should be for Allah as you claimed that I did.I said this question, is better suited for a Muslim.Then I continue to say this is not the thinking of a Christian. Actually, “I said this is not the Christian view.” You would know that I answered the question with this statement if you paid attention.Just because, I don’t say what you want me to say, doesn’t mean I’m avoiding something.It is not the Christian view to believe that God rapes people or that God has a plan for someone to be raped. Therefore, this question is not suitable for Christians. This question should be directed to the Muslim. It is the Muslims who believed that their god does such evil.I answered the question the first time ricky. Pay attention ricky. Stop accusing me of doing things that are not true.If you want to point out I do something make sure it is the truth. |
| Timothy Carter |
Ricky Grimsley, even though I answered the question, that brother John Conger ask ( I answered very plainly. “God does not, desire for someone to be raped.” )You foolishly accuse me of skirting the question. I answered the question. You cannot get any more plain, then a one-sentence answer. (Evan a one word answer is considered a one sentence answer.)Yet, you refuse to answer my question.You are trying to accuse me of not answering his question while at the same time you refuse to answer my question.Why do you refuse to answer my question?I ask you, “Where do you get the idea that I think the question is for Allah?”Please do not accuse me of not answering questions, when I have already answered them. Especially, when you refuse to answer questions. |
| Wahyu |
I agree God does not desire anyone to be raped. Hence what I was saying. God is sovereign but allows things to happen because of man’s freewill. Those things are not Gods plan or desire. Many in here are saying everything is part of His plan and is orchestrated by him. I was taking that to a practical level |
| Ricky Grimsley |
The practical level can not be seen from the ivory tower. |
| Ricky Grimsley |
Timothy Carter i said allah because you said the question was more appropriate for a muslim. |
| Wahyu |
Timothy Carter that was a silly response. We have Christians on here asserting that God is micromanaging every moment |
| Ricky Grimsley |
When i say “God is in control” i mean to say God sets parameters. That he could do anything but he limits himself for reasons i dont understand. When i hear other say “God is in control” especially when they attach “in every situation” is God’s will is always done. Yet when we take it down to a practical level of individual events no one will “say yes God desired it” but will just leave it as “well God is in control”. So perhaps what i should have said to Timothy Carter is “please clarify” instead of accusing you of “skirting” the question. |
| Timothy Carter |
Ricky Grimsley, John Conger, “God is in control.” Does not mean, that God is a micromanager. The fact that God has set certain laws into existence, proves that He is not interested in micro management. In Ecclesiastes, the writer explains some of these laws. I do not remember the exact location, the writer States that when we get old our eyes dim, our hearing goes, our hair turns, overall our body is not as strong as it used to be. This is a law that God has set in place. God is not, putting His finger on every individual cell of every individual person’s body, and causing each cell to metabolites, to reproduce, or to die. Each person, gets older, and the body gets weaker, as a result of the law God put in place. This, could be stated as setting parameters.Another another law, is gravity, what goes up, must come down. If I throw a ball in the air, it is not God who slaps it back to Earth. It is the law of gravity.When bad things happen, it is because of the law, that God has put into place. It is not because God is jerking the strings on His little puppets. Sometimes, bad things happen because people sin or their ancestors have sinned. When the bad thing happens, it happens, because the law set in place causes it to happen. It is not God, who is, physically creating chaos, every second. The Bible plainly tells us, sin brings death. Sometimes, that death looks like a catastrophe, instead of a casket.Sometimes, a bad thing happens, not as a direct result, of sin. This is also, because God has put the law of life into motion. Life happens to everybody. The Bible plainly explains, that both good and bad things will happen, to both good and bad people. God is in control.God is not surprised, when anything happens. God is fully aware of the laws He has put into place. God understands the cause and effect, chain reaction, of our choices. God also understands, that life happens, even if we choose righteousness. God understands this better than anyone, because He designed the system. No matter what happens God is in control.To say otherwise, is to claim, something is powerful enough, to take God’s control away from Him. At this point, God is no longer God. Rather, the entity, that took the control is now God. And most certainly, Jim Carrey’s movie plot, never happens in real life.I cannot comprehend, how anybody could understand this to be any different. Unless this person, is a non believer, or a new believer. Anyone, who is serious about studying the Word, should never expect that God could lose control. Neither, should they expect, that God is pumping the lungs, of every individual human, and animal. The fact, that we are able to breathe, shows that God has put a law into place. God designed life to survive. He does not, spend all of his time making sure every living thing is currently breathing, has mucus flowing, a beating heart or any other life sustaining action.Even non believers ( except so professing atheist), will explain, that we have a higher power, of some sort, because a life is amazing.How could a Christian not recognize this? |
| Ricky Grimsley |
And i agree with all that. |
| Wahyu |
Timothy Carter not to be offensive but you obviously haven’t reading or paying attention. Others are asserting the very thing you are disagreeing with. Neither Ricky nor I say God is not in ultimate control. |
| Timothy Carter |
I don’t read everything, that is posted.I intentionally, avoid reading all of some peoples post, because, they are boring, or useless.I never thought that you, or Ricky Grimsley, believed, that God is not in control.I have not read anyone say something, that would contradict what I just posted.I usually read, both of your post.I’d like to pick on Ricky because he speaks in blanket terms. Ricky, likes to use all inclusive language. When he does this, he leaves no margin for difference. I find this, entertaining. |
| Timothy Carter |
Stan WayneThe dispensation movement, teaches that God has categorized everything into small compartments of time.This movement, teaches that God is in a different mood for every time.This movement, teaches that God, based on His mood swings, puts Israel, and Christianity to a new test, with every mood swing.Therefore, dispensationalism, is ultimately saying God is an unstable, emotional, moody God. Just because He’s mood changes, He puts humanity, into some new foolish test. This, is seeing God as a scientist, rather than a benevolent God.Yes, pre- tribulation rapture, is popular among those who believe in dispensationalism.However, there is no requirement to believe in dispensationalism, to be able to see, pre tribulation in Gods Word. |
| Jimmy Humphrey |
The idea didn’t exist without pre tribulationalism. And even the biggest proponents of it in modern day theology, like the recently late Dr Charles Ryrie said the doctrine of pre tribulationalism is not the result of direct exegesis of a scripture, but a theological necessity created by their two peoples of God theory which sees the church as a mere paranthetical statement in Gods plans for Israel. Thus, it is merely inferred and not directly taught. |
| Timothy Carter |
Pre-tribulation don’t equate Dispensationalism.A person doesn’t have to believe that God is a heartless scientist, playing cruel tricks on humanity, to believe that God is a God of Love, who will return for His bride. |
| Timothy Carter |
Every Eschatological belief is based on, assumption. Jimmy Humphrey, not one eschatological believe can be proven by Scripture. If any eschatological believe could be proven come we would not have so many different schools of thought. We would all be in agreement, just as we are in agreement about the cross.Regardless, of what Charles Ryrie (whoever that is), try to tell people, the fact remains, that not one Eschatological believe can be proven as definitive fact.We should admit that we believe based on, scriptural understanding and our own desires mingle together.Eschatology is theory at best.If any theory of eschatology were fact, we all would be able to see it.We do not have to believe in dispensationalism, Calvinism, Lutheranism, Wesleyanism, Catholicism, …. or any other ISM to believe in the Cross. Nor, do we need to believe in a particular ISM to expect Christ to do what He would do. Christ has promised that He will return. Christ does not explain how or when. There is no biblical author that gives great detail as to how or when. |
| Wahyu |
Therefore God is not orchestrating everything. Perhaps you should read some of the comments. |
| Charles Page |
I remember hearing CoG preachers say when I was just a child 1) they said was like someone from a high vantage point seeing two cars traveling toward each other and neither knowing they are on a collision course and God knows the inevitable collision. 2) You can pray for a car but God isn’t interested in whether it is a Chevy or a Ford.Both statements troubled me and I never digested them. I did not like them. |
| Timothy Carter |
Charles Page, you don’t like Chevys or Ford? Do you before one of those foreign cars? Surely, you don’t drive a Prius? LOL |
| Timothy D McCune |
If we call in to question whether or not God is in complete control, what does that say about my ( our ) faith. |
| Wahyu |
Complete control is ultimate sovereignty. That’s completely undisputable. He brings god or of bad. However to say everything happens according to his plan is crazy |
| Nelson Banuchi |
John Conger: When you say, “Complete control is ultimate sovereignty. That’s completely [i]ndisputable,” how is that different from saying, “everything happens according to his plan”? |
| Timothy D McCune |
Is this crazy it is straight from Gods Word. Ecclesiastes 3:1-15 1 Everything that happens in this world happens at the time God chooses. 2 He sets the time for birth and the time for death, the time for planting and the time for pulling up, 3 the time for killing and the time for healing, the time for tearing down and the time for building. 4 He sets the time for sorrow and the time for joy, the time for mourning and the time for dancing, 5 the time for making love and the time for not making love, the time for kissing and the time for not kissing. 6 He sets the time for finding and the time for losing, the time for saving and the time for throwing away, 7 the time for tearing and the time for mending, the time for silence and the time for talk. 8 He sets the time for love and the time for hate, the time for war and the time for peace. 9 What do we gain from all our work? 10 I know the heavy burdens that God has laid on us. 11 He has set the right time for everything. He has given us a desire to know the future, but never gives us the satisfaction of fully understanding what he does. 12 So I realized that all we can do is be happy and do the best we can while we are still alive. 13 All of us should eat and drink and enjoy what we have worked for. It is God’s gift. 14 I know that everything God does will last forever. You can’t add anything to it or take anything away from it. And one thing God does is to make us stand in awe of him. 15 Whatever happens or can happen has already happened before. God makes the same thing happen again and again. |
| Charles Page |
“I know the thoughts I have for you…” why do all the other moderated texts say plans? |
| Wahyu |
What translation is that? Nothing I’m familiar with. Sounds like a paraphrase. Not good for doctrine. Again do you believe it’s God’s will for a woman to get raped? Or a child abused? If everything happens according to his will why does he get angry? Or sad? Our tell us to pray for his will to be done? It days he wills for everyone to repent but does that happen? Once again he can step in anytime he wants. He is the ultimate power however he is not intimately involved in everything that happens. He has perimeters he has set for himself and allows us to be affected by the free will of others |
| Charles Page |
KJV |
| Wahyu |
I’m very sorry. That’s horrible but you can use any evil. Is God controlling the cheating wife? Do you believe that was his will or plan? A parent abandoning their child? Or does God just promise to bring good out of bad which is what I believe |
| Charles Page |
Yes, God controls the cheating wife! |
| Timothy Carter |
John Conger, who has claimed that everything happens according to God’s will?John, this is what you said, “If everything happens according to His will why does He get angry?”I have not read yet where someone claims that every single thing happens according to God’s will.I pointed out to you earlier, this is the stupidity of the Muslims, who believe such foolishness. This is not the view of Christians.Christians believe, that we have the ability to make our own choices. We are not robots. We are not marionettes, while God pulls the strings. Christians believe, that God has a plan. We as individuals can choose, because we have the ability to choose, God Himself gave us this ability, to participate positively to God’s plan, or we can reject God’s plan.No serious Christian believes that God is controlling us as if we are puppets on the string.Why do you ask such a foolish question?Some people say there is no such thing as a stupid question. I guess they’ve never heard this one. It is a stupid question, to ask if God is forcing someone to commit the sin of rape, or any other sin. God is not pleased with foolish questions.The Apostle Paul, tells us not to waste our time asking stupid questions (2 Timothy 2:23).Also see: Do not get involved in foolish discussions about spiritual pedigrees or in quarrels and fights about obedience to Jewish laws. These things are useless and a waste of time (Titus 3:9 New Living Translation).In Proverbs 4 Don’t respond to the stupidity of a fool; you’ll only look foolish yourself. 5 Answer a fool in simple terms so he doesn’t get a swelled head (Proverbs 26:4-5 MSG). |
| Ricky Grimsley |
http://youtu.be/gApXDGjyksw |
| Timothy D McCune |
Not good for doctrine John Conger , what do you mean by that ? It is Gods word so that makes it Good for doctrine automatically. |
| Wahyu |
Not a paraphrase. That’s some guys idea of what God means |
| Timothy D McCune |
John I’m not sure I understand you, are you saying this scripture is merely a paraphrase? |
| Wahyu |
I said it sounds like it. I asked what version is it. |
| Wahyu |
Also interested in an answer. |
| Wahyu |
So what do you do with the scripture that says God cannot temp so he can’t temp but he can make them sin? |
| Timothy D McCune |
KJV no God does not tempt He does not go against His own Word. |
| Wahyu |
What you posted wasn’t kjv here’s ecc. 3:1 kjv To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:Ecclesiastes:3:1 |
| Timothy D McCune |
Maybe it was NKJV , the point is God Is in fact in control, and iam done. |
| Louise Cummings |
Amen God is in full control. |
| Wahyu |
Wish you would have dealt with the question. Some doctrines sounds nice until you apply it to practical application. Wish you the best brother |
| Bibliata Net |
http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/we-will-always-have-hope/ |
| Troy Day |
Bretheren, if two old guys’ talk over coffee can shake your faith in God’s full control over the Universe, it is well it is well with my soul! |
| Timothy Carter |
What? |
| Kevin Clark |
Dont know why any one would bring age up in this discussion. If i was them i would ask you why you think age deminishes they’re theological discussion. Disappointing. |
| Troy Day |
It may do good if you see the rest of what the poster has posted lately while considering my opinion. Thanks |
| Ricky Grimsley |
I dont see it having faith that has been shaken. There is a whole range of ideas in the spectrum of “God is control”. Some people believe that it means that everything that happens is God’s will. Personally, I feel it necessary to defend God’s character. We have to recognize our role. As in God knows what we need before we ask but we still have to ask. I dont believe God’s will can be done in out lives without our participation. |
| Jon Ruthven |
Check this out by Ravi Zacharias: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=it7mhQ8fEq0 |
| Louise Cummings |
God doesn’t make bad things to happen. But He allows things to happen. Because of sin from the eating the forbidden fruit in The Garden of Eden. Sin will be until The Lord Comes. Now He did say If My people, which are called by My Name will humble themselves and pray. And Seek His Face and pray. And turn from their evil or wicked ways. He would forgive their sin and heal their land. Yes I believe sin is causing a lot of things that is happening now. But Jesus would give good things if people listened to God. But they’re not listening. So The Bible has to be fulfilled. |
| Jim Price |
Louise, your answer is pretty much the stock answer that we have heard for our lifetime but consider this; if we were standing outside a building and saw it catch on fire but said nothing to tell those inside, were would that leave us? We would not be guilty of setting the fire but surely we would always feel guilty in not getting those inside out. If God could prevent a catastrophe because he is all knowing and does nothing even though He is all powerful , where does that leave him in the great scheme of things? Especially when we read that He is not willing that any should perish. |
| Timothy Carter |
|
| Timothy Carter |
Let’s forget, that God is love. Let’s forget, that God is Just. Let’s ignore, the fact that God is creator.As a matter of fact, throw the Bibles away , and question God’s motives, about everything, that is displeasing to anybody.In essence, this is the exact foolishness, that is being done, when we ask such unanswerable questions. It is not our place to question God’s motives.Job tried to question God’s motives, look where it got him. God, rebuked Job, for his foolishness. |
| Timothy Carter |
Thus the question – answered in the negative – involves no limitation on God’s ability, motives; if answered in the positive however does. The whole thing is a play on words. It’s negation does not mean God is not all knowing – it means that His knowledge is not properly tested as implied by this silly question. |
| Timothy D McCune |
Timothy Carter amen as God rebuked job for questioning Him , who are we to start doing so now. And I know job was a holy man. |
| Wahyu |
He didn’t rebuke job for questioning him. He rebuked him for accusing him based on assumptions. Over and over in this group anytime the hard questions are asked or long held traditional beliefs are compared to real world scenarios then people go crazy saying it’s heretical. If scripture cannot be applied to real life what good is it? |
| Ricky Grimsley |
None of this is any good if God already knows what going to happen from before the world began……because it already happened in his mind………and his mind cant change😦😦couldnt resist. |
| Timothy D McCune |
John we all know the Bible story of Job and why he was rebuked, no one in here has been called a heretic. Ricky Grimsley yes God knew what would happen before the world began. He is without time. |
| Wahyu |
If you haven’t been called a heretic on this page then you’ve never questioned anything |
| Timothy D McCune |
I have questioned things, I don’t question God. |
| Ricky Grimsley |
Actually tim carter has said multiple times that i worship a different god. |
| Timothy D McCune |
Ricky Grimsley that’s between y’all. I try not be that harsh I don’t always accomplish that goal iam human and I fall at times. |
| Wahyu |
If an teenager asked how God could stand by and watch a child be brutalized while he had the power to helpwhat would you say? |
| Timothy D McCune |
John Conger are you asking me what would I personally say? |
| Ricky Grimsley |
Its not about questioning God. Is about understanding God. Its about being more like God. It about having the mind of Christ. Its about getting it right when we speak for God. |
| Timothy D McCune |
Ricky Grimsley a Lion doesn’t need you to defend it just open the cage door. |
| Ricky Grimsley |
He doesnt need it. He chooses it. Jesus said this where peter could here it just before peter denied him. John 18:20-21 KJVS[20] Jesus answered him, I spake openly to the world; I ever taught in the synagogue, and in the temple, whither the Jews always resort; and in secret have I said nothing. [21] Why askest thou me? ask them which heard me, what I have said unto them: behold, they know what I said.When jesus is on trial through out the world he wants us speak for him not because he cant but because its his choice to use us. |
| Wahyu |
Yes |
| Timothy D McCune |
I’m not a professional therapist, I would empathize as best I could and do all I could to get her/him the help needed. It’s disingenuous to say to a victim why didn’t God stop the perpetrator from abusing her/him. The victim needs help working through the trauma not why didn’t God strike down my rapist with His mighty sword from heaven. |
| Ricky Grimsley |
Regardless the question still gets asked “why did the all-powerful but loving God let this happen”. While the people on this thread may have that worked out….millions out there have not. We dont always get to unpack a lifetime of faith and theology to them. “God is control” and “God has a plan” “Things happen for a reason” and the like just isnt the way i feel God wants to be represented. |
| Ricky Grimsley |
So what questions are grieving people allowed to ask? |
| Ricky Grimsley |
How can I trust a God that may have made me knowing I was going to hell and cant change? |
| Ricky Grimsley |
Anyone who says we cant ever question God should never be allowed to preach. |
| Ricky Grimsley |
Matthew 26:39 KJVS[39] And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt . |
| Ricky Grimsley |
Matthew 27:46 KJVS[46] And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? |
| Timothy D McCune |
Ricky Grimsley and John Conger that type of question is dangerous for a non-professional. Speaking from experience 99.9% of the anger is not at God. And Ricky your verse isn’t Jesus questioning God. I don’t claim to have never in my life not to have questioned Him, I’m at a place where I thankfully don’t now. I’ll leave you with this you work out your faith with fear and trembling and work I’ll out mine. And those that I come across that need love and mercy I’ll give it to them I don’t ever proclaim to have all the answers, only God does. |
| Ricky Grimsley |
Im not a greek scholar but “why have you forsaken me” seems to be a question addressed to God? |
| Timothy D McCune |
I was talking about the previous one, when He asked asked the cup to be allowed to pass from Him, and I don’t know that I would put a His question Why have you forsaken me in the same category as what we are talking about, He had just been beaten, made to carry the cross nailed to , side pierced, and then the whole worlds sins put onto Him at once, so ya as God turned from that scene He Jesus cried at asking the question, I mean seriously none of us would done that or lasted for 1/10 of it. And then you have the audacity to say He questioned God as in the same manner one of us would. |
| Timothy Carter |
Why do pathetic, sinful, unlovable, creatures called humans, have a chance at salvation?Either either God is is love or He is not.Who is worthy, to question the motives of God?Let the one without sin cast accusations and stones at God. |
| Ricky Grimsley |
The open-theist has no accusations against God. |
| Wahyu |
There’s a big difference between bringing an accusation against God in anger and being honest with your questions and doubts to Him. |
| Ricky Grimsley |
I believe we have a (chance) at salvation only because of God’s grace. In someone people’s theology on this thread there is no (chance) no options no free-will because their eternity, their choices, their internal desires were created in them before the world began with an unchangeable future perfectly foreknown in the mind of God. Sounds great if you were raised by loving COG parents but sounds like maybe God didnt love Muhammed Al Sbabazz the same when his parents trained him to strap on a bomb at 18. My theology doesnt require that i accuse God or question him. It helps me exonerate him off all the ridiculous accusations that a majority of christians make while the Devil laughs. |
| Timothy Carter |
The book of James, explains how suffering glorifies God. For a person to be asking such stupid questions, as to why God allows suffering, proves they don’t believe the Epistle of James, the writings of Paul, or even the cross. Do these people seriously believe that cross is pleasant? Who do they think they are, that they should have life better, then Jesus Christ Himself?There is nowhere , in the Christian Bible that even slightly indicates, that Christ died on the cross, so that life would become, Heaven on earth.These people, are simply trying to make fun of God. These people, are trying to say that God does not care.These people, are living in disobedience to God’s Word.The Word of God, tells us, not to be asking stupid questions for the purpose of starting an argument.The only reason, for this type of question, is to try and discredit God, and to start an argument. |
| Ricky Grimsley |
I have never said that Gods does not care, nor have I tried to come up with arguments. I dont blame God for any wrong doing. My whole point in this is that a belief in God having perfect knowledge is inconsistent with man having free-will and the bible. |
| Timothy Carter |
Then read the Bible. The Bible plainly explains, that man has the ability to choose.The Bible plainly explains that God knows all things.The Bible also shows, to believe that God has an attribute that is a less than perfect, is to prove that the person is an error. Everything about God is perfect.The only way to serve and imperfect god, is to create him yourself. Or serve Satan. |
| Timothy D McCune |
I am going remove my previous post I think you got the point. |
| Ricky Grimsley |
I would never assert that God has an imperfect attribute. He has all knowledge that can be had. |
| Ricky Grimsley |
How about the hebrew scholars on this thread exegete this scripture for me. Jeremiah 32:35 NLT[35] They have built pagan shrines to Baal in the valley of Ben-Hinnom, and there they sacrifice their sons and daughters to Molech. I have never commanded such a horrible deed; it never even crossed my mind to command such a thing. What an incredible evil, causing Judah to sin so greatly! |
| Timothy Carter |
Ricky Grimsley, there you go again, telling another lie. Here, you are saying, that you would never, say that God has an imperfect attribute.Yet, just above, as with a hundred times before, you say, “God having perfect knowledge is inconsistent with man having free will and the Bible.”Does God have a knowledge?Of course, God has knowledge.Because, that knowledge, is God’s knowledge, then it is perfect knowledge.Stop telling lies.AlsoMan can have both free will, and the Bible.That’s right he can have both things. Man has the ability to choose. And man can also own a Bible. Regardless, of whether you believe it or not. |
| Ricky Grimsley |
I have never said that God doesnt have perfect knowledge. God knows all that can be known. |
| Ricky Grimsley |
Again you never answer questions just attack. |
| Ricky Grimsley |
Ok now that i read it did say that god didnt have perfect knowledge. I apologize. However, you also know what i meant to say was exhaustive foreknowledge since we have been arguing forever. |
| Wahyu |
Yeah Ricky if tim doesn’t agree with it then you’re telling lies!!! Timothy Carteryou forgot to say liar liar you’re pants are on fire |
| Timothy Carter |
John Conger, I did not forget anything. I copied, the screenshot kama where Ricky Grimsley, is doing exactly what he claims he will not do. It’s not a matter of me disagreeing. It’s a matter of ricky, refusing, to remain consistent, in what he says. |
| Ricky Grimsley |
And i just said i was in error and amended my statement. |
| Timothy Carter |
Thanks, Ricky |
| Timothy Carter |
By the way, I think that our conversation is fun. 🙂 |
| Ricky Grimsley |
God in his sovereignty has allowed evil to continue in the world for humans to have free-will choices. Questions like these are necessary not only for christians to defend the nature of God but also make christians realize that our actions and prayers make a difference. We need to pray against the spiritual darkness around us and pray in the spirit. God has chosen to work through us and our effectual, fervent prayers. This is why i am an open-theist. |
| Louise Cummings |
Theist belief in one God. That is correct. But poly theism I belief in more than one God. I thought your answer was good if you was talking about one God. And He does give us choices. My prayer is that everyone believe in God. The only God that created Heaven and Earth. Also there would be nothing without Him. Not even us. |
| Ricky Grimsley |
Open-theism refers to the openness of the future. It refers to free-will, not to other Gods. Jesus is the only way. I in no way endorse other Gods. |
| Timothy Carter |
Ricky Grimsley, if you don’t endorse other gods, why are you constantly talking about stuff that doesn’t make sense? You use the word God, Jesus, but you describe I thank God that you have hallucinated up into existence.Some of the stuff you say about your God, is completely foreign to the true God. |
| Ricky Grimsley |
Timothy Carter you are certainly entitled to disagree with me. However, saying we have different Gods (as if to disparage me)is pretty low. |
| Louise Cummings |
Ricky Grimsley all that sounds good too me. I believe that that’s the forbidden tree was put in the Garden. Was to give Adam and Eve a choice to do what God said and leave the tree alone or Eve could listen to satan like she did. But she had a choice. We still have a choice today. I choose Jesus. You had good points. |
| Timothy Carter |
Ricky Grimsley, if you want people to believe, that you are talking about, the true God of Christianity, at least – at the very least- use some characteristics, of the Christian God.Those of us, who serve the Christian God, and study His characteristics- we know, he is not limited to human imagination.**3For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: 4(For the weapons of our warfare [are] not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;) 5Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; 6And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled. 7Do ye look on things after the outward appearance? If any man trust to himself that he is Christ’s, let him of himself think this again, that, as he [is] Christ’s, even so [are] we Christ’s (2 Corinthians 10:5).A lot of what you say sounds like the people, being rebuked here in Romans.Because that when they knew GodThough they had such a knowledge of the being and perfections of God, yet they glorified him not as God.They neither thought nor spoke honourably of him; nor did they ascribe those perfections to him, which belonged to him; they did not adhere to him as the one and only God, nor honour him as the Creator of all things out of nothing, and as the sole Governor of the uerse; they did not glorify him by the internal exercise of fear of him, love to him, or trust in him, nor by any external worship suitable to his nature, and their own notions of him (Romans 1:21).If you want, people to believe you’re serving the same God the Apostle Paul did, then don’t contradict Paul. |
| Ricky Grimsley |
Well again i feel it is your position that impugns God’s character. Not mine. I believe God is perfect. I believe God knows everything that can be known. I believe that God has all power and is sovereign. I just know that in his sovereignty he has chosen to create beings that can freely choose him or resist when he draws them. I know God can know and prepare for every possibility as if it were a certainty. I just know free will and an exhaustively foreknown future are incompatible. I could spend the rest of the day pointing out scriptures that say God learns and changes his mind. All you can do is say that they dont mean what I think the do. However, with reasoning you are he only one who knows God. I hope that you deal with your congregation with more grace than that. Unless you you just want mindless robots like your version of God? |
| Timothy Carter |
Ricky Grimsley, I have never denied that God knows everything. I have never denied that God is all power. I have never denied that God is completely sovereign. I have never posted anything that could be used to contradict any of these statements.I have never denied that humans have the ability to choose. As a matter, of fact I have posted, at least a thousand times in the past year, saying something to the fact, that we have the ability to choose.Big deal, you could post scriptures, I can copy and paste also.I have never denied, that God learns, that Jesus grew in knowledge and statue before God and man. I have never denied that God changes His mind.You Ricky, or the one telling these lies. You are the one that claims, that I do not believe this.I do not believe humans are mindless robots. You are the one that describes humans, as being more knowledgeable and more powerful than God. You describe God as being so pathetic he cannot make a choice without humans praying.I never said, that I am the only one that knows God. There again that is your lie.I said you describe a different god, then the God of Christianity. I said that you’re god, is not the same God as the Apostle Paul writes about.I did not see everybody’s god, I said your god. Stop telling lies. You will not find one post, where I say, I am the only person who knows God. This is your lie, Ricky. It is every pastor’s responsibility, to teach people in their congregation to accept the Word of God as true. When someone in the congregation starts telling lies on God, as start telling lies on other people, it is that pastors responsibility to confront them.You say you hope, that I deal with my congregation with more grace. Grace is the strength of Christ to live without sin. Yes, I tell my congregation, they should live without sin.I think you meant, that you hope I deal with the congregation, with more kindness. It is kind, to tell the truth. It would be unkind, to allow someone to remain in their deception, without at least trying, to let them hear the truth. But when a person loves their darkness, they don’t want to see the light. When they are obsessed, with telling lies against an entire belief system, and a single out individuals, to tell lies against, it is difficult to reach them.This is what you have done, you have told lies against the Arminian faith, over the past week of one of this out to you. You repeatedly tell lies against me.The God that Apostle Paul that the Apostle Paul writes about, does not approve of liars. Therefore, you must serve a different God. Satan is the father of all lies. |
| Ricky Grimsley |
I have never lied about the Arminian faith. Im just saying that its simultaneous belief in free-will and God’s perfect knowledge of the future is not possible. |
| Ricky Grimsley |
As for grace it covers more than the power to not sin |
| Timothy Carter |
You have told lies, against the faith. You have said is equal to Calvinism. That’s a blatant lie right there. |
| Ricky Grimsley |
What i said is there is no practical difference between between the positions because you have a unchangeable future from before creation either in God’s mind or because he predetermined it. The end result is the same whether you would admit it or not. |
| Timothy Carter |
You said they are the same. I have not read a post, where you said, ” there is no practical difference between Calvinism and Arminianism.” But, I have read many post, where you say that Calvinism and Arminianism are the same.However, even if you were to post, as you just did, that there is no practical difference, you are telling a lie against Arminianism.Arminianism, does not claim to have a predetermined future.There may be some people out there just as ignorant as you who call themselves Arminian, who teach the Calvinist doctrine. Just because a Calvinist teaching person calls himself Arminian, does not change the Armenian faith.James Arminian, was not Calvinist! He did not believe in a future set in your stone. |
| Louise Cummings |
Timothy Carter Great Scripture. You can see in Romans what happened because they didn’t Glorify Him As God. They wanted to serve flesh. God gave them over to a reprobate mind to believe a lie and and do all kinds of evil things. They were acting against Gods Nature. His Nature Is Holly. Without Holiness , no man can see the Lord. That’s what the Bible says. |
| Ricky Grimsley |
Again i completely understand Calvinism and Arminianism. However, my view is……for the 30893th time….that in both views the future is settled from before time began. Yes, i realize that God “predetermines in Calvinism and only foreknows is Arminianism. Still a settled future. Unchangeable from before creation. |
| Timothy Carter |
Ricky Grimsley, there you go again! Arminianism, does not view things this way. |
| Ricky Grimsley |
http://youtu.be/NfeoRt_Zg54 |
| Louise Cummings |
The Bible says that God is long suffering , not willing that any should perish but all should come to repentance. Do you not think God is doing anything to help those who are in sin to help. I wouldn’t leave any one in a house on fire without helping. Nether would God. But He has been long suffering. What do you think He is doing. Giving everyone chance after chance. What if you were trying to get some one out of the fire. And they wouldn’t let you. They refused your help. I Know My Lord. He would help as long as He could. But there would come a time He would have to let them go. That’s the reason He’s long suffering. Jesus defeated satan on the Cross. He knows he doomed. The devil will never win. If you believe in One God Or all kinds. There is just One God. He The Truth The Light. I hope and pray you and all that comments on this knows Him as their Saviour. If not you can. You must believe in Him first of all. If you don’t believe in Him. There’s no need for me to go further. Because you have to believe. |
| Jim Price |
Of course I believe! Solomon tells us to perceive words of understanding. Prov. 1:2 the subject I have raised is very complex and has puzzled theologians for centuries, all I am doing is to walk around the subject and to view it from many angles; that is the way to increase understanding. |
| Louise Cummings |
I’m Pentecostal myself. But i need to know where he’s coming from also. I could misunderstand his point. I don’t know enough about it. |
| Troy Day |
Ricky Grimsley Isaiah 45:7 clearly says “and create evil” It doesnt matter what you interpret pass that – clear as day |
| Nelson Banuchi |
Troy Day, It does matter, unless you are suggesting that moral evil is a direct result of God’s activity or creativity; that is, that God himself perpetrates moral evil, committing sin.http://evangelicalarminians.org/g-h-clark-claims-god…/ |
| Ricky Grimsley |
Isaiah 45:7 isnt using evil as a sinful thing its contrasting it with peace. He can certainly can create harm to people. God created the capacity for evil with free-will so he most certainly knew the possibility. The scriptures certainly allows for God to devise plans to judge people and steer them to his will. However,James 1:13 KJVS[13] Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: |
| Louise Cummings |
Very true. We are tempted of Saran. He is the tempter. God will never tempt anyone to sin. He God. Cannot sin. |
| Louise Cummings |
That is supposed to be Saran. I just hit the wrong letter. Sorry about that. |
| Ricky Grimsley |
Poor Saran is getting a bad name. Lol i knew what you meant |
| Louise Cummings |
Thanks because I did it again. |
| Carol Hargis |
Amen |
| Carol Hargis |
We know he cannot be tempted from the 40 day F. |
| Wahyu |
Are you saying Jesus couldn’t be tempted after the 40 days in the wilderness? Maybe I’m getting in the conversation too late |
| Ricky Grimsley |
Hebrews 4:15 KJVS[15] For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. |
| Carol Hargis |
Amen |
| Carol Hargis |
No John that is not what I meant. |
| Wahyu |
Sorry |
| Carol Hargis |
God is always in control, are we doing our part and praying enough God knows all. |
| Carol Hargis |
God is always in control and knows what he is doing other than that Jesus died so we can have free will, serve or not serve. What choice are you going to take. He said he would get his numbers of people in Heaven, if he had to take babies. |
| Timothy Carter |
Where did Jesus say he would kill babies? |
| Timothy Carter |
Jim Price, as your friend is abusing the table, does he deny the many wars Moses tells us about?As his knuckles, are being bruised, does he refuse to acknowledge, that King David, is a man of war?As he is assaulting, other people’s property, does he reject, the fact that Samson was anointed by God to kill people?Before the poor, innocent table, is destroyed completely, maybe he can tell you where he gets the idea, that God should disapprove.Yes, God was in charge of the Civil War.To say otherwise, is to deny He is God.God is even in charge, of the General Lee, the Dukes of Hazzard car that ridiculous people are afraid of.Yes, God was in charge, of World War 1 and World War 2. God was even in charge, of Hitler. Just as much as God was in charge of Pharaoh. This is why this is why God told Moses, to rescue God’s people.Yes, God is in control of every deadly virus. What portion of Scripture, shows that some virus is more powerful, then the blood Christ shed on the whipping post, where he received, stripes for our healing?Yes, God is in charge of every abortion that has ever been committed.Only someone, that does not understand the love of God, could see that God is not in control.If God, is not be in control, He’s not God.Don’t serve a God, that loses control.If God, cannot maintain control over His creation, then His creation is more powerful than He. If God, is less powerful, than His creation, then He is truly pathetic. |
| Wahyu |
Which is more of a sin in your eyes? Open theism or being condescending to others? |
| Ricky Grimsley |
Lol |
| Ricky Grimsley |
Timothy Carter does not understand the open-theism position. We only have free-will because allows it. He could have made a world according to the Calvinist model but he didnt. |
| Timothy Carter |
You can call being condescending a sin if you want to. The Bible tells us to point out faults doctrines. |
| Wahyu |
Haha if timothy diagrees with it then its sin. Wow you are COG. Sorry buddy but your arrogance is the biggest sin I’ve seen here |
| Timothy Carter |
So it is a sin to disagree with John Conger and Ricky Grimsley. There is no arrogance on my part. Just because I’ve got enough sense to recognize you don’t tell the truth about God’s Word is not arrogant. Jesus Christ Himself knows you’re not telling the truth about His Word. But, you probably think He’s arrogant. Because, He disagrees with you also. LOL Why don’t you to write your own Bible? That way you will have a Bible that says what you wanted to say. |
| Wahyu |
So condescending translates into disagreeing with me? I have a drug addict sister who deflects like that. |
| Timothy Carter |
And her taking drugs, catches your god by surprise, from one pill to the next. Because, your God can’t think past this very moment, she can’t figure out that a drug addict, will continue doing drugs. How’s that for condescending? Pretty good right 🙂 |
| Timothy Carter |
John, I’m not deflecting anything. I am bluntly, flamboyantly, and proudly saying I disagree with you. |
| Wahyu |
Very much so. Misrepresenting what someone else believes is very condescending but it seems to show a lot of fear of dealing with hatred questions. But I’m probably wrong about that since you and Jesus are on the same page about everything. You’re gonna blow the grading curve for the rest of us ignorant ones |
| Timothy Carter |
What? You’re talking about misrepresenting what other people believe. Yet your co conspirator Ricky Grimsley, is constantly misrepresenting what the Armenian faith believed. But, this doesn’t bother you?Of course not. Because that you agree with his lies. |
| Wahyu |
Yep. You’re the victim sis. Justify bad behavior by pointing to others bad behavior. First pull the beam from your own eye then you can see clearly to remove the speck from your brothers. |
| Ricky Grimsley |
I dont misrepresent what arminians believe. I just ask questions that show where it breaks down. I would love to hear your explanation on how God knows the future from before the world began but somehow i still have free will? |
| Ricky Grimsley |
I agree with arminianism except in the idea that it teaches man has free-will but that God already perfectly knew the choices i would make from before the world began. I feel those two ideas are incompatible? |
| Stan Wayne |
Ricky – think of it this way, Jesus when he incarnated gave himself a huge handicap so that he could play putt putt golf with us – he even put some of the Knowlege he had in a separate hard drive and left it in Heaven – he made it so he had to pray study sleep etc.Similarly this sovereign God is able to put Knowlege to the side and relate to us on our level – he is just that sovereign. |
| Ricky Grimsley |
I perfectly understand the concept that God can limit his knowledge and his glory as in the incarnation. I just disagree that that is what happens here. The future doesnt exist. If God knows perfectly knows the future from before the world began, then nothing can be changed. There is no actual free-will if the future is already settled even if only in God’s mind. |
| Stan Wayne |
You are fighting old intellectual battles that have long been resolved and are losing your battle |
| Ricky Grimsley |
I believe In God’s sovereignty as much as anyone here. I just believe that what God desires is us to choose us of our own free-will and glorify him. |
| Ricky Grimsley |
How does the effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man avail any more than a sinner if the outcome was determined before they were born? |
| Charles Page |
Who believes that the outcome of prayer is determined before we were born? Who believes that. “determined” |
| Ricky Grimsley |
If God already knows from before you were born and his knowledge is perfect and unchangeable the so is your future. Therefore God created you knowing for sure you would go to hell or not with no ability to change. |
| Charles Page |
The early belief of the Roman church in a great cardinal conference denying Pelagianism said specifically “no one is predestined to hell” They saw this in Pelagius thinking that folk would be determined to hell and strongly denounced. |
| Ricky Grimsley |
I dont believe God predestines anyone to hell. |
| Stan Wayne |
It is determined by us and God sees it a long time ago and can tuck away that information |
| Charles Page |
Is there anythings that God determines? |
| Stan Wayne |
He determines that what we choose in regard to Him is what he determines.Things not pertaining to us – Israel etc he determines without regard to our opinion. |
| Ricky Grimsley |
For God to “see”it has to exist. Like this. |
| Ricky Grimsley |
Genesis 1:3-4 KJVS[3] And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. [4] And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. |
| Ricky Grimsley |
Let there BEThere wasThen God saw it was good. |
| Stan Wayne |
No “Thine eyes did see my unformed substance, and in thy book all my members were written; during many days were they fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.â€Psalms 139:16 DARBY |
| Ricky Grimsley |
I certainly believe that God can look at a fetus and know what he has planned for it. In David’s case God had actually picked his line to bring the messiah back in Jacob’s day. God most certainly plans things and upholds his word. However, I dont believe that God saw him killing uriah and probably raping bathsheba. He certainly wove that into his plan though. Personally i believe that God wanted David to be the first king of Israel but the people revolted against God before David was ready so he picked Saul. |
| Louise Cummings |
I looked up the word Theist. I don’t agree with all of it. I believe in Monotheism. Belief in one God. I don’t believe in predestination. I believed Jesus died to save everyone. I believe He predestined us all to go to Heaven. But not everyone expected it. They wanted to make their own choice. Because of the wrong choice everyone won’t make it to Heaven. But it would have been unfair for Jesus to die for a few but not everyone. He gave everyone a chance to go to Heaven. But everyone has not excepted it. But where the Bible tells us He was long suffering. He said not willing that any should perish. But that All should come to repentance. Also read John 3:16. All of John 3: you will find we have to be born again. I was just going to explain what I believe after I looked that up. |
| Ricky Grimsley |
Everyone on this thread is a monotheist. The “open” part of open-theism only refers to “open” future where God knows every possibility but does know every choice you will make. |
| Stan Wayne |
No you are resisting the truth: “Remember the former things of old; for I am ·God and there is none else; I am God and there is none like me; declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure;â€Isaiah 46:9-10 DARBY |
| Ricky Grimsley |
I agree with that. I have read Revelation. He declared that end from the beginning. It doesnt mean that God knew every detail of how we get there. We most certainly get there he has spoken it in his unchangeable word. It will be fulfilled. Look at Jesus for example. He said i could call angels down but i wont because the scriptures have already foretold what I will do. Matthew 26:53-54 KJVS[53] Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels? [54] But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be? |
| Carol Hargis |
Jesus died so we could make our own choices, so now it is up to us to decide for ourselves, before Jesus the Gentle all went to hell. The 3 days he was dead , he was in hell giving them another chance, so to answer your question, you will determine your destiny. |
| Charles Page |
Copelandite!!! |
| Carol Hargis |
Do not understand your language. |
| Carol Hargis |
By the way that was the first resurrection. |
| Carol Hargis |
Waiting for the last one. |
| Timothy Carter |
Stan Wayne, who are you talking to? |
| Stan Wayne |
I thought Ricky Grimsley at the time who seems to be wrestling with open theism |
| Ricky Grimsley |
What i wrestle with is the idea that God has exhaustive foreknowledge and that i simultaneously have free-will. Both are not possible. If god already knows it as a fact then its already happened and cant be changed. Otherwise I am a typical Arminian. I just cant explain away the scriptures that others can. How can the scriptures record God saying “something never crossed my mind” and then people say “well ricky God knows everything so what the holy spirit meant to convey was God knows everything. |
| Louise Cummings |
Yes I believe He is Omniscience. All knowing. You are looking at God. He has to be all knowing. To speak prophecies in Daniel in the Old Testament. And we see it unfold inRevelation in the New Testament. I believe He is Omnipotence. All Powerful read Romans for all Powerful. Read Romans 4:–17–24. For all Knowing read 1 Corinthians 2:-10–13. I believe He is Omnipresence. He’s Everywhere. Matthew-18:2. Many more Scriptures. But I tried giving just one for each one. Tell me how could God not be All Knowing.i believe it was |
| Ricky Grimsley |
I believe that God knows that all that can be known and prophecy works because God says something and then makes it happen. God also changes his mind. He told nineveh they would be destroyed in 40 days but they repented and God in his mercy gave them 70 more years. |
| Timothy Carter |
Ricky Grimsley, I wrote a detailed, article, to explain this to you, back in September, but you were too lazy to even read the article. |
| Ricky Grimsley |
Wow. Is it necessary to use language like that. |
| Timothy Carter |
Ricky Grimsley, of course it’s not necessary, I have freedom of choice, I chose, what words to use.You are the one, that is constantly harping on freedom. How can you not comprehend, that people have the freedom to type what they choose. |
| Ricky Grimsley |
I believe you have freedom. I just believe your theology doesnt account for it. I believe if God exhaustively knows the future then what you refer to free will is an illusion because it already happened in the mind of God and cant be changed, and since he knew that before he created you then he condemned some to hell without their choice because he could have chosen to not to make that way. |
| Timothy Carter |
Ok Ricky, you keep accusing god of having an evil heart. Let’s see how far that gets you |
| Louise Cummings |
Ricky Grimsley I don’t know who wrote your name down. I don’t think it was me. But I wanted to say something. You are right. God did send Jonah to Nineveh. He didn’t want to go. A whale swallowed Jonah. He got there. He preached they repented like you said. Because God knows doesn’t mean His mind is made up. He’s waiting and longing for people to change their mind every day and make Him Lord of their life. He gives you a choice to believe in Him and what He says. Or turn Him away. His choice would be Come to Him. But He gave you a choice also. To come or not to come. But He said there is joy in Heaven over one sinner that repents than 99 just persons. That means ninety nine that’s already a Christian. See He didn’t already have His mind made up. He was giving them a chance. I hope you haven’t misunderstood me. Because I think you have said some good things but unless you’ll want my opinion on something I’ll let you all discuss the Bible. I did feel there was one more thing I needed to say. But not on your part. I enjoy Bible discussion also. In a friendly way. |
| Ricky Grimsley |
I would never accuse God of having an evil heart. Your statement is lunacy |
| Troy Day |
I can only imagine how Ricky and Tim would have felt if Jim and and his friend had full breakfast instead of just coffee 🙂 |
| Timothy Carter |
That’s a great idea, let’s all get together and have a big meal. I think it would be a lot of fun.Biblicalca, posted something about all of us getting together, but I haven’t heard anything else about it.It would be great, to meet you guys in person. |
| Ricky Grimsley |
Lol |
| Troy Day |
imagine the effect if Charles was invited to breakfast too 🙂 #LoL |
| Ricky Grimsley |
Personally i enjoy the conversation. I dont have all my positions set in stone. Im still learning. And which of you can blame me if God always knew i would be like this. Lol. I do wish some could be more civil. I certainly expect some disagreement. If the admin. Of the site believes i actually worship another God I would be happy to leave. Otherwise, most days i enjoy it. |
| Timothy Carter |
Ricky, I have tried to be gentle, and helpful with you. I even wrote an article specifically answering your questions. You never read the article. Instead you made fun of me because I wrote the article. If you had read the article, then you would have answers to your questions. |
| Ricky Grimsley |
How about you repost the article to me and i will read it tonight. You dont have to be gentle but you can disagree without personal attacks. To describe me as lazy is out the scope of your knowledge. |
| Troy Day |
The good Book says: Speaking the truth in love… |
| Nelson Banuchi |
Troy Day The good book says, also, not to make unjust judgments. It is not “love” to judge one’s moral or spiritual character merely by contact via FB comments, especially towards one who professes Christ. |
| Timothy D McCune |
I believe I have not been anything but civil. |
| Timothy Carter |
I did not say, that you are lazy in all things. I said you were too lazy to read the article. That’s a big difference. |
| Carol Hargis |
Ricky prayer can change Gods mind, sure did for us. Praise God. |
| Ricky Grimsley |
It did for hezekiah and nineveh. |
| Wahyu |
Timothy your constant mischaracterizing what someone believes is cowardly |
| Timothy Carter |
John, I have not mischaracterized anything! I am NOT a coward. I would say it straight to your face. My address is 780 Montgomery Avenue North East Cleveland Tennessee 37311Come straight to my door and I’ll tell you to your face |
| Wahyu |
Haha and you’re a minister?? Meek and temperance anyone? ??! You skirt the questions. Talk down to others. So are you saying you didn’t accuse Ricky of saying god had an evil heart???? Cause I can screenshot if you can’t read what you said. Which he obviously didn’t say but as long as you believe it in your mind that’s all that matters. Oh and my address is 3290 IH 27 Abernathy TX. You’re welcome at my house anytime. |
| Timothy D McCune |
Me? |
| Timothy D McCune |
If so when have I mischaracterized you or anyone on here. And if you’re addressing me I’ll thank you not use the term cowardly I have not attacked you with any names, brother. |
| Nelson Banuchi |
For some reason, when I click on “View more comments” it fails to scroll down to view the comments. Any advice? |
| Wahyu |
Not you Mr. mccune |
| Timothy D McCune |
Ok , thank you. |
| Wahyu |
Too many timothys lol |
| Wahyu |
Haha and you’re a minister?? Shining example obviously!! You skirt the questions. Talk down to others. So are you saying you didn’t accuse Ricky of saying god had an evil heart???? Cause I can screenshot if you can’t read what you said. Which he obviously didn’t say but as long as you believe it in your mind that’s all that matters. Oh and my address is 3290 IH 27 Abernathy TX. You’re welcome at my house anytime. |
| Timothy Carter |
John Conger, I never denied saying , saying that ricky accused god of having an evil heart. Big deal you take a screenshot. I’ve taken screenshots too, as you can see I have reposted them. This must make you feel so brave. You are able to take a screenshot, so now you feel like a tough person. I have never squirted any question. I have answered every question that has ever been asked me. If I see the question, I will answer it honestly. Just because, you don’t like the answer, doesn’t mean I skirted. What Ricky Grimsley, describes is an evil heart. Pointing this out, is not talking down to anyone. As I have already said, the writers of the Bible tell us to point out faults teachers. |
| Timothy Carter |
This, is not mischaracterization. mischaracterisevb (tr)to characterize in an incorrect or misleading mannerTherefore, mischaracterise, is what you and Ricky Grimsley, are doing.You, ask those stupid questions, which the Bible instructs us not to ask, for the purpose of trying to confuse people about God.Ricky, mischaracterise or tries to mislead people, about God knowledge, about free will.He mischaracterise, I just flat out lies, about the Arminian faith. I have not misrepresented anything. Get your facts straight |
| Wahyu |
Only in your mind. You obviously have character issues. I’ll pray for you |
| David Lewayne Porter |
The book of Job, the entire book – even in bad situations God has preset limits. I think the conversation starting in chapter 38 covers it in a very clear explanation and answer. |
| Wahyu |
See that’s the kind of answer I can respect. |
| Timothy Carter |
Thanks, brother David Lewayne Porter, this is one reason, why I have referenced Job several times. Yet, Ricky and John don’t want to accept, the teachings we learn from Job. |
| Ricky Grimsley |
Im not trying to confuse anyone. We are just a group of people discussing pentecostal theology. Im not teaching open-theism to anyone. Im just asking questions. Questions that seem to bother some because they point to questions they are uncomfortable with. I have no animosity towards God. I know that these conversations would go down alot differently if we had them in person. |
| Ricky Grimsley |
As for job his feelings about God he might have had different feelings had he been privy to the conversation between satan and god. |
| Timothy Carter |
Of course, he would have. That, is part of the lesson, we are taught in the book. Not about his feeling differently, rather that we should feel differently, because we don’t know what’s happening behind the scenes. We should simply trust God. We should stop questioning His motives. When we belong to God, He has has faith in us. |
| Ricky Grimsley |
Thats awesome if you are Job. Not so awesome if you are Judas. |
| Timothy Carter |
Which are you? Are you job or are you Judas? |
| Ricky Grimsley |
Hopefully neither. However, if the future is settled from before creation, what any of us think is irrelevant. |
| Timothy Carter |
It sounds as if, you are going to keep telling yourself your life don’t matter. You keep telling yourself, that everything is vanity.That is all you want to do anyway. You don’t want to believe the Word, you want to feel sorry for yourself. And you want to get everybody else feeling sorry for themselves because a life is useless. |
| Ricky Grimsley |
That isnt the way I feel. That is the perception I have of the belief in God’s exhaustive foreknowledge. |
| Ricky Grimsley |
I am an open-theist remember? I feel like everything matters. |
| David Lewayne Porter |
Some one that penned it had the knowledge. God (may have)told him after the situation come to completion. But I do agree, the average and above average believers would have a fit if they knew their problems were a direct result of God saying (satan, oh satan – there they are). |
| Timothy Carter |
Ricky Grimsley, you keep swinging back and forth on what you post. You post, statements which sound as if you trust God, then your post something that sounds like you don’t trust Him. You will post, sounding like a Calvinist. Then you will post, anti Calvinism. It’s difficult to understand, what you think you believe |
| Ricky Grimsley |
Im not swinging back and forth. What i have said over and over is that I believe that Calvinism and Arminianism both have a future where every detail is settled from before creation. I reject that idea. |
| Timothy Carter |
Not, just this statement. Your overall post, contradict each other.It would help your readers, understand your point, if you would make an extra sentence, to state, which view you are referring to. |
| Timothy Carter |
David Lewayne Porter, do you agree, that RickyGrimsley’s, post seem to support one side, then support the opposite side? Am I providing, necessary advice?OrDoes Ricky, communicate all point clearly? |
| Ricky Grimsley |
I can let Greg Boyd help you?http://youtu.be/gApXDGjyksw |
| Wahyu |
Timothy Carter says we are not allowed to ask questions. He says they are stupid questions and scripture says we can’t. We are supposed to just accept what he says. |
| Timothy Carter |
John you are a liar |
| Timothy Carter |
I never said, we’re not supposed to ask questions. I never said, scripture said, that we are sure we shouldn’t ask questions. I never said, that asking questions is stupid. You are a liar.I said your questions are stupid. I said, that scripture tells us not to ask stupid questions, which are for the point of causing an argument. This is what you have been doing. You’ve been asking stupid questions, trying to start an argument. I posted a few Bible verses, to show, that I didn’t make it up. It is the Word of God.Why do you want to tell lies on people? |
| Wahyu |
Really? Can you not read? I’ll take that apology now |
| Timothy Carter |
Of course, I can read. This state, just what I said. You need to learn to read. You need to learn to stop telling lies on people.I said, “YOU” ask those stupid questions” This, does not say that no one, should ask questions. This does not say that all questions are stupid. This, is very clear, that I am saying that your, questions are stupid.If you’re going to call me out on something, then be correct. Find something I’ve actually done wrong. Don’t tell lies. |
| Wahyu |
Haha so only the questions I ask. I see. I think you should pray through |
| Wahyu |
Perhaps you could use a safe space ?? |
| Timothy Carter |
Now, you get the point. It’s not everybody’s questions, it’s those stupid questions which you ask.You, are saying I need to save space. I take that to be a death threat. I am reporting you |
| Ricky Grimsley |
A Safe Space is a place where anyone can relax and be able to fully express, without fear of being made to feel uncomfortable, unwelcome, or unsafe on account of biological sex, race/ethnicity, sexual orientation, gender identity or expression, cultural background, religious affiliation, age, or physical or mental … |
| Wahyu |
Bahaha oh my goodness. This is hilarious |
| Wahyu |
Perhaps I was too harsh. |
| Wahyu |
If anyone knows timothy carter please tell him I tried to get a hold of him to apologize but I guess he deleted his Facebook |
| Ricky Grimsley |
He might have blocked you. |
| Wahyu |
Maybe |
| Wahyu |
Who would block me? I’m the nicest guy ever 🙂 |
| Timothy D McCune |
That went from 0 to 100 rather quickly. |
| Wahyu |
No doubt |
| Carol Hargis |
This is a shame 2 Christans can’t get along. John you need to say I am sorry too both need to say their views and then if you can’t say something good say nothing. |
| Wahyu |
What are you talking about? I’m the one who did say I was sorry but to be honest if you will go back and read the posts I never attacked anyone. |
| Carol Hargis |
I just want everyone to get along. I know you wanted to say you was sorry and that is great. |
| Wahyu |
? |
| Carol Hargis |
God is not Pleased, he wants us to love each other. |
| Carol Hargis |
Thanks |
| Charles Page |
rule for this group: if you can’t say something good don’t say ‘anything’!! |
| Charles Page |
since when is saying something about theology not loving each other. |
| Louise Cummings |
If said with love and concern for each other. |
| Charles Page |
also love and concern for God’s Word. |
| Ricky Grimsley |
Discussion can be loving and necessary. Calling people liars and say they worship a she-god or something isnt becoming of christians. |
| Wahyu |
EXACTLY! !!!!!!I don’t agree with mr. Charles Page on many things but you have never called me a liar, heretic, etc. … and I would never say that about you. It’s called being mature I believe. |
| Charles Page |
you lying heretic!!! |
| Charles Page |
is that redundant? |
| Carol Hargis |
Please stop this, we are suppose to be the light of the World for Jesus. |
| Wahyu |
Lol Carol Hargis big daddy Charles Page over here was joking |
| Charles Page |
my little light shines all over the world! I’m excited about Jesus, he is Lord and Savior. |
| Carol Hargis |
Amen he sure is. |
| Timothy Carter |
I am not the only one who believes, that when someone, is describing God, but the attributes common don’t line up with God’s , then that person, is describing a different god, then the God of of the Bible.I have not done anything wrong. Ricky Grimsley, if you want people, to recognize your talking about God of the Bible, then use attributes, that actually describe the God of the Bible. Stop making up stuff.Even A.W. Tozer points out that, Moses, Isaiah, Apostle Paul, or even Jesus Christ, would not recognize the god, you (some churchs) describe.If you don’t want to be called a liar, then stop telling lies.How can anybody, take you at your word, when your telling so many lies?I never once, said you were telling a lie unless you were period you with claim that I said something that I did not say. Or you made up stuff against, the Armenian faith. Also:You said you would read, the article if I reposted it. You have not, gave any indication that you have read it yet. |
| Ricky Grimsley |
For the last time, what i believe and what i have said…. Is that i believe that free-will and God having exhaustive foreknowledge from before the world began are incompatible positions. I see scriptures that say God changes his mind and learns,that he makes statements about the future and then brings them to pass. You and most others disagree. That doesnt make me liar. I have yet to see your article so i have to respond. Honestly, i dont wish to correspond with you any further on this subject. |
| David Lewayne Porter |
Guys, I have discussed with some on here through private messages and found out that there are simply (questions) that need to be addressed personally within (all of) us.That being said could we simply address the topics as factual with Scriptures and theology sound reasoning as possible?Could we remove the emotions and keep the passion and zeal in check within Christian guidelines?I too was growing weary on one conversation and was ready to release my anger, vent my fury, and explode. Instead I private messaged them and found out that they simply wanted a (safe-place) to bounce ideas around among fellow believers and brethren. Could we be civil and allow that as we all deepen our Bible study skills and be (iron sharpening iron)?May we allow this forum to prepare us all as we encounter the unchurched and lost with their questions? |
| Carol Hargis |
Great |
| Kevin Clark |
Well said David! |
| Timothy Carter |
That is what I thought this forum is for. There is no reason, to become upset, over anyone’s ideas. However, some people are not mature enough to have a conversation. Some people only want others to agree with them. And sometimes people post bizarre, and unbiblical, post. These, are usually the people who get angry, when everyone does not agree with them or pat them on the back for being a trendsetter.For example, earlier in the week, there was a long video, over 80 minutes, trying to convince, that this public speaker had the answer. This public speaker claimed that wheat, tears, and weeds are all the same thing. Also, this public speaker, had twisted ideas about the thousand year Millenium Reign, and the Great Tribulation happening simultaneously. When there are post, intentionally, disagreeing with God’s words such as this one, we have every biblical right, even a biblical obligation, – say it is not in line with Scripture.If the person, does not want, to be called out, as being out of line with Scripture, then they should not post garbage. Most, of the people here actually want to talk about real biblical issues. Most people, don’t want to make up garbage. Most people, do not want to, waste their time reading such garbage. I was tagged in the post. I usually, (not always) stay out of a conversation, unless someone, tags me, or ask me a question. We should be an encouragement to one another, to study God’s Word more. |
| Charles Page |
Amen, Timothy! |
| Carol Hargis |
Amen |
| Carol Hargis |
Timothy you are so true. |
| David Lewayne Porter |
Agree, but should we ever resort to name calling and belittling. |
| Timothy Carter |
David Lewayne Porter, name calling, is immature, unless it is appropriate.I don’t know what you’re referring to with ” belittling”, but your question of name calling, you’re referring to, my saying that people are liars when they are two indeed telling lies.There is absolutely nothing wrong with telling someone is a liar, if they are indeed lying. Jesus Christ Himself, who we are to model ourselves after, told people they were lying, thieves, false teachers of the Word, …, many throughout the Old Testament, and then New Testament do the same. We have a responsibility, to stand for truth, and to call out, fake people.If we afraid, – admit that someone else is fake, then we are allowing that person, to deceive others. We are then, and accessories in their sin. |
| Carol Hargis |
To the last response, amen. We have to stand for the truth, Maybe say that is false and not true. |
| David Lewayne Porter |
Timothy CarterI thought I was very clear, so if I wasn’t let me try again. I did not say anything about (liars) because I did not think it qualified for a response.Before I go into why let me point out that I don’t think anyone on here that has read my posts can say that I back down or don’t call it the way I see it or perceive the situation. So then as far as the (calling people liars) I was not referring to that. There is a difference in misunderstanding, and relating knowledge without full understanding from just flat out lying with intent to deceive.Taken from Rev 21:8 liar definition055715571 ψευδής [YEUDH/S] {pseudḗs} \psyoo-dace’\ from 5574; untrue, i.e. erroneous, deceitful, wicked:–false, liar. See Greek 5574.055745574 ψεύδομαι [YEU/DOMAI] {pseúdomai} \psyoo’-dom-ahee\ middle voice of an apparently primary verb; to utter an untruth or attempt to deceive by falsehood:–falsely, lie.So for us to call someone a liar, we must have full understanding that they are trying to deceive (Remember the commandment said bear no (FALSE witness), Intentionally misleading to gain an advantage. We can say, “you are incorrect, you are mistaken, you need more research and study, let me enlighten you, etc”. But to say they are a liar means we know fully their intention was to deceive. That puts us very close to calling their character into question – not just their actions or words.At this point I will issue caution to all by referring to Matthew 5:22But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. – which references to lessen one’s character. (Now yes one of my favorite chapters is Matt 23 – we all remember that one I am sure). You use it sparingly.You will notice I that I do not reference Calvinist beliefs or Arminianist beliefs, because I dont believe any of them are truly correct. That is why I list straight scripture, because they are the only inerrant source for our beliefs. You yourself have said In another post that I have not flip-flopped on my positions posted here (and I will not – for any one, any belief, or stance).With all of that out of the way”Belittling” name calling etc,, what I meant was posts like…..(Eye roll, stupid, idiot, -tadaaa- and the like).Now if you feel I was talking about the use of (liar),, well I will leave it where it lays.I hope that I was crystal clear that time.Brothers, I just want us all to learn and get better at relating the Gospel to a lost and needy worldChurch time.Peace out. |
| Carol Hargis |
Thanks understand fully. |
| Timothy Carter |
I have called Liars a liar. I have said they are lying when I caught them in a lie. But I have not, said anyone was rolling their eyes, stupid, an idiot, or tatata. When I say that someone is telling a lie. I am referring to them accusing me or someone, of doing something I have not done. Or them stating false information about God’s Word. To call someone a liar, is it to admit, that they are not telling the truth. No one, is in danger of Hell’s fire, for telling the truth. To point out someone else is, not telling the truth, is not putting yourself in danger of Hell’s fire. Again , throughout the Old Testament, and the New Testament we find believers, pointing out when others are telling lies. If the Word of God does not want us to do this, then why does the Word train us how, to do so? Then, why does the Word tell tell us to do so? |
| David Lewayne Porter |
Timothy CarterThen be at peace brother, I must not have been talking about you then.It is not just doing it (pointing out [[[liars]]] used loosely),, but also how we do it. The spirit behind it, the intention of our heart while doing it. If your heart is clear be at peace, if not then again I will leave it where it lays. |
| Kevin Clark |
I believe debate is different than correction. In a forum like this you have to be willing to agree to disagree and post discussion. If every person communicated with an attitude of correction on here when they disagreed rather than discuss, than it turns into something completely different than a debate/discussion forum. In short, every discussion on here has to buffered with the fruit of the spirit. Categorizing, labeling, and name calling people I believe is a BIG mistake and is just a way to redirect away from the discussion. There is not need to make it personal. Just keep the subject in front with no personal attacks. Share your thoughts on the subject and move along to the next line and maybe we might be able to help each other on here. |
| Charles Page |
|
| Carol Hargis |
You may be right but you have the right to your opinion just keep an open mind. |
| Louise Cummings |
I believe if you disagree with some one. You can go about in such a way without strong language. You don’t win people to the Lord that. Although I believe you should give Bible. I was enjoying it although I didn’t have a right to jump in. I wasn’t invited. I just jumped in. I wish I could have seen the tape. Then I would know where each one is coming from. I would love to follow along and read it. I guess I’m not on his page because I didn’t see the tape. Sorry I just jumped in. Although sometimes it’s hard not to bring out what I believe. If y’all could go on in a tempered or joyful way even if you don’t agree. I would love to read along. I’ll try not jump in this time. |
| Charles Page |
I have been called “Calvinist” which certainty not true. I am a Bible believer only. |
| Louise Cummings |
I’m not Calvinist either. Some things he says may be okay. But a lot of what he says I can’t go along with. |
| Louise Cummings |
I googled Calvinist. I can’t agree with him at all. He said Jesus died for some. The ones God had ordained to be saved. But the rest that God didn’t ordain to go to Heaven. Wouldn’t be any chance for them to go to Heaven. Jesus said who so ever will let him come and eat of the tree of life freely. Jesus is waiting on who so ever Will. That means us all. I was just going I don’t agree with the Calvinist at all. |
| David Lewayne Porter |
I am not sure which category I fall into, I don’t line up perfectly with any of them. Someone please help me find myself 😉 . |
| Carol Hargis |
Serve The Father, read his word and get a Jimmy Swaggart Bible. I have one and love it. No one will always see eye to eye. |
| David Lewayne Porter |
Carol my sister, you mean KJV? My mother has one of Brother Jimmy Swaggart’s Bibles from 1984 (January), and I love it.But, with that being said, although I use Bibles formated by specific people (several people actually), they are people, and I don’t place much confidence in any one of them particularly.My favorite Bible is the original printing of The Greek Hebrew Key Word Study Bible by AMG PUBLISHERS (American Missions to The Greeks) by Spiros Zodhiates, KJV – it has since been reworked and renamed a little differently. Yet even in my great approval of it, He plays down, to a degree, the effect of the Holy Spirit as far as His Pentecostal working for today’s generation. I still love the Bible.(My joke was, I do not fit into any mold, I am out of the box). |
| Carol Hargis |
You have that right. |
| Carol Hargis |
I believe you all are over my head, I love discussion. Making this to hard for someone that really needs the truth of the Bible. In my view should be made simple. |
| Kevin Clark |
Carol Hargis I believe the invitation for salvation is simple. However, I don’t think the things that come with a daily walk and discipleship always come across so simple. Yet, I understand we don’t want to pride ourselves into debate of things that were not meant to be difficult. There is always the remembrance that as we grow we go from milk to meat and meat is not as easy to digest. |
| Carol Hargis |
Yes I understand, my Dad and Mom were ministers. I study the New Testament more than the old, I have had the Holy Ghost since I was 5. Been in this all my life. Still have a lot to learn. 70 years young. |
| Carol Hargis |
I really like this when we can agree to disagree. |
| Charles Page |
Many 😉 years ago a woman came up to me after service and complained that my preaching was over her head. I told her, “that is good” “that way you can reach higher and If I preach at your level then I will be wasting both of our times. Why tell you what you already know?” |
| Carol Hargis |
In my opinion, not anything here would win anyone to Christ. This site is for people who wants to form their opinion on the Old Bible. Was it not God that realize his first plan didn’t work so he sent his son Jesus to die so all men and women could have a chance to make it to Heaven. I have a different belief in the Marriage Supper. We may start through the mark of the Beast, in gear now, I believe but God is fixing to blow the trumpet for Jesus to bring his Bride to the Marriage supper, also every or a lot of people are going to be shocked when they find out who that Beast is. |
| David Lewayne Porter |
Yes we probably won’t win anyone to Christ here unless we are being trolled, yet if we can answer questions we have and become more conformable with (conflict) we are better prepared for the unsaved and unbelieving. |
| Carol Hargis |
David amen. |
| Carol Hargis |
You are right on. |
| Carol Hargis |
I will study more, thanks. |
| Charles Page |
Thanks |
| Carol Hargis |
You are very welcome. |
| David Lewayne Porter |
They taught us in my training to aim for the middle of the crowd. You will be under the intelligence of some, and over the intelligence of others, but aiming for the middle should pull them all together. |
| Carol Hargis |
Thanks |
| Charles Page |
isn’t that seeker friendly religion? Our job is to preach/proclaim the Word and not seek the medium comprehension of the crowd. The Holy Spirit does that! |
| Kevin Clark |
Would you always preach the same to a group of 8 year old compared to a group of 30 year olds? |
| Charles Page |
I would assume the 8 year old are sitting with their parents so yes I would preach the same. |
| Charles Page |
compartmentalizing by age groups is a relative modern ministry approach and I don’t think it is Biblical. |
| David Lewayne Porter |
Charles PageA very good question. Let me clarify my statement.Seeker friendly (in my opinion) is teaching what people are looking, as in the subject matter of the message or the message itself.That is never up for compromise.What I mean as “the middle of the crowd” is learning aptitude, grade level of language skills and communication ability, etc. We can not simply teach over everyone’s head. You also can’t teach under everyone. Either of these and we miss the goal of communicating the Gospel to those that need to hear it.Paul wrote the majority of the epistles. Yet Paul used a different way of communicating with the Thessalonians because they were considered intellectuals.That simply stated is what I meant by “middle of the road”. |
| Charles Page |
He preached over the heads of the Bereans and they sought the scriptures to understand clearly. |
| David Lewayne Porter |
Amen. That is our hope and prayer for all that hear us, that they go out from a meeting and search in detail for more personal growth.That being the case I need pose the question,How far over their heads is acceptable? |
| Charles Page |
I wish I could reach the level Paul preached to the Bereans. We need that level preaching. |
| David Lewayne Porter |
Brother I feel you.I agree.Who would not love to have a portion of Paul’s Spiritual knowledge, experiences, ministry, etc. But would they be willing to pay the price that it cost?That is a discussion for another day. |
| Louise Cummings |
God knew man would fail to obey Him. But they were completely cut off from God afterAdam and Eve sinned. God had a way made for man to get back to God. Matthew 25:34. Says then the King will say to those on His right hand Come he Blessed of My Father. Inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. So He already had a way made for man to get back to God. From the foundation of the world. He loves us that much for His Son to die on the Cross for everyone. Not just a few. The Bible says few there will be that find it. But that’s not Gods fault. He gave plain instructions in the Bible How to find Him. Romans 8 or 9 chapters. |
| Charles Page |
God was aware they would fail but He did NOT foreknow they would fail. The Calvinist believe God had foreknowledge of the failure and that would mean he determined them to fail. No sensible Bible believer holds that view. |
| Louise Cummings |
Also John 3:16. And read the whole chapter of John Three. |
| David Lewayne Porter |
Charles PageI believe I understand what you mean here but if you would please sir clarify the difference here for me…””God was aware they would fail but He did NOT foreknow they would fail.”” Also, “”The Calvinist believe God had foreknowledge of the failure and that would mean he determined them to fail.””As I have stated several times on other posts there is a difference in God knowing they would fail and God determining them to fail.God gave them all they needed to “not fall”. Yet He also gave freewill. Just because He gives freewill does not mean He determines those choices for us on the personal level as a result of that freewill, thus determining us to failure. We overlook the simply fact that Him being God gives Him abilities and Characteristics that we as humans can’t comprehend or understand right now. (Example, if we can’t handle understanding God’s prepared goodness and things to come that He has for us in the future how then can we understand Him and His abilities & plans? 1 Cor 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.We need to stop thinking as man and just let the Spirit led.Also, we need each other for full understanding…Eph 3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,So then how are we supposed to understand His Foreknowledge in light of or in contrast to predetermination? |
| Charles Page |
For whom he did foreknow he did also predestinate…to foreknow is predestination and there is no context in this verse for any reprobation Just a singular predestination to be conformed -not condemned as the Calvinist claim. |
| Ricky Grimsley |
This is the issue i have with Calvanism and Arminianism. Whats the practical difference between God’s foreknowledge and predetermination? You still are left with a settled future from before time began. |
| Charles Page |
in Rom 8:29 there is no distinction between God’s foreknowledge and determinations. Yes the elect graciously have a settled future from before time began. |
| Ricky Grimsley |
So if you arent elect, is your future open or is your future separation from God? |
| David Lewayne Porter |
Good question worth asking. |
| Charles Page |
The Bible says if your name is not recorded in the book of life you will be cast into the lake of fire. -that seems to be eternal separation, pure and simple. good Bible answer, Charles Page!! |
| Charles Page |
That is my final answer, Ricky!! |
| Ricky Grimsley |
Cant your name be recorded but be blotted out if you are not an “overcomer”?Revelation 3:5 KJVS[5] He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. |
| David Lewayne Porter |
Ricky GrimsleyThat is Bible, that is Scripture. |
| Louise Cummings |
God had a way made for everyone from before time began. He intended for everyone to be saved by Jesus Died on the Cross. Because without the shedding of Blood there is no Remission of sins. His Blood was shed for everyone. And we were given a choice to except it or turn Him away. No one has to be lost. If they are its by their own choosing. Because they didn’t except Jesus. He paid my penalty because we were the ones that sinned. Not Jesus paid our price. By giving His life’s Blood for us. He made the way where no one has to be lost. Unless you don’t believe Him. And will not except Him as Lord and Savior. That’s not the Lords fault. Because He paid the Price for everyone’s sin. |
| Stan Wayne |
Ricky – you may not agree with the way others have resolved this in their minds (believe us – you are not the only one that has wrestled with the apparent contradictions) – but as I say you may not agree but it seems you could do well to accept that others have it resolved – for me foreknowledge and predestination are not the same- one depends on the other – guess which one – and once foreknowledge is established it can be set aside by a God who chooses to relate to us as we might choose to relate to an infant |
| David Lewayne Porter |
As sincerely as I can state this..I still don’t have a clear answer gentlemen. I get dances around the same two view points which shows me that the Body of Christ truly has no true understanding of God and how He works or Who He truly is.Allow me to explain with one simple verse (Psalms 103:7He made known his ways unto Moses, his acts unto the children of Israel).Moses spent 40 days (2 different times) in God’s presence alone on a mountain that that if others touched they would be killed. He alone possessed the Spirit of God until God dispersed the Spirit to 70 additional men. He saw the the back of God’s glory, and Moses face shown so that the rest of the people could not view him plainly. He met Jesus on the mountain as in transfiguration.And we of the New Testament think we have it all together (just stating in general, not slamming any one,, just batting around my thoughts of God’s Awesomeness and fullness) that if we experienced Him in like fashiom today it would make us literally physically explode. You see, I don’t see God as being limited or coming short in any area. I see men just beside themselves trying to figure out their God. |
| Ricky Grimsley |
I dont see God coming short in any area either. He works within the parameters that he sovereignly chose. |
| Charles Page |
amen! |
| David Lewayne Porter |
Amen |
| Charles Page |
He is Sovereign! There was no choice involved. |
| David Lewayne Porter |
No choice involved for whom, God or man? |
| Charles Page |
Only choice is with the regenerated Child of God, their new birth results in a life of choices. |
| Charles Page |
Adam and Eve had that life before the fall and we have that life restored once we are regenerated. The move is from death to life. |
| Ricky Grimsley |
So what actually caused the “death”. God removed them from the Garden so they couldnt eat from the tree of life and live forever in their fallen state? But it appears they still could have had eternal life had God not prevented it? |
| Charles Page |
God, actually spoke a fatal curse on Adam and it seems without that curse Adam and Eve and all their descendants would live eternally as sinners. |
| Ricky Grimsley |
It seems to me that what caused their death was God removing their access to the tree of lifeGenesis 3:22 KJVS[22] And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: |
| Charles Page |
it had a universal effect on all mankind to such a degree that another Adam would have to act as a redeemer for anyone to be redeemed. That redemption was the lamb slain from before the foundation of the world was laid. God predetermined who would be the subjects of that redemption. |
| Ricky Grimsley |
Kinda stinks to not predetermined? |
| Charles Page |
stinks all the way to the lake. |
| David Lewayne Porter |
What caused the fall was disobedience in taking what they were told to leave alone. Genesis 2:17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. (Literally in dying thou shalt die).Being removed from the garden did not cause death but ensured the inability to eat of the tree of life and thus live forever in a compromised fallen state.Notice as soon as they ate they were changed, even before God revealed His presence in His daily walk. That change was also before the judgement and sentence. |
| Wahyu |
Purely speculative but what would’ve happened if they had eaten from the trees of life before God found them and kicked them out? |
| Ricky Grimsley |
I think they would have been like the hybrid people that were destroyed in flood …..the demons of now. |
| David Lewayne Porter |
Living forever in a fallen state, as in as we are now yet simply unable to die,, – (Noah was not hybrid and yet he was alive during the same time). Demons were never humans, they are fallen angels.Speculative,?They would be Humans forever living yet with dead unredeemable souls. |
| Wahyu |
Of course that’s speculation. |
| Ricky Grimsley |
Demons and fallen angels are different in my opinion |
| Charles Page |
my speculation is that all the descendants of Adam and Eve are the election of God and that the non-elect are the offspring of the fallen angels and daughters of men. They are not demons but are people without any hope of resurrection. They are able to die as many of these perished in the flood. But you know the discussion that will follow!!! |
| Ricky Grimsley |
Nah i think we all are pretty solid where we stand in this. No ones mind will get changed with discussion on the topic. |
| Charles Page |
Ricky Grimsley , finally we agree on something! |
| David Lewayne Porter |
Ricky GrimsleySo how are they different? |
| Ricky Grimsley |
The have bodies and do physical warfare. They can appear as human. Demons have to “posses” a body to physically interact. |
| David Lewayne Porter |
Scriptures? |
| Ricky Grimsley |
In genesis 6 angels with bodies rape human women. I Believe those are the angels punished in Jude 1:6 KJVS[6] And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.The demons begged to put in swine instead of going into the abyss while angels could have just flown away. The angels are territorial. Prince of grecia, daniel etc. The angels are still have access to the heavens and are the powers of the air and havent been cast out of heaven for good yet. And a giant study in the differences of the words used in familiar spirits, unclean spirits, and the like. On an unscriptural note many people who deal with “deliverance” ministries such as Russ Dizdar hold this view from the research they have done from formerly possessed people and what they learned in the occult. |
| Charles Page |
My belief is that the offspring were men of renown and with the capacity for greatness and these non-elect people continued on after the flood doing great things (mt personal belief is that one of these people was Herod whom Christ would not even acknowledge him. He called him a fox. IMHO |
| Ricky Grimsley |
So you dont believe that Goliath was “giant”, just kinda bigger than the average guy? And all the scriptures like the “lion-like men of moab and men as tall as cedars and the children of israel feeling like grasshoppers were just creative license in the scriptures? |
| Charles Page |
election has nothing to do with body size. There already were giants in the earth before the men of renown came to being. |
| Charles Page |
who you think came up with the notion to build a tower to heaven? |
| Ricky Grimsley |
Fallen angels. It didnt have anything to do with how high it was. We have been to the moon. I think this was more like a supernatural portal “like jacobs ladder”. Perhaps the story of Nimrod has more to offer but its a long rabbit trail with lots of guessing. |
| David Lewayne Porter |
Ricky Grimsley1) Angels with bodies – I believe that angels have bodies, but celestial bodies not as we consider bodies and not bound to the rules and restrictions of our world (angels – fallen or otherwise of which satan is also of that class) Rev 2:2&7 so he is bound in a pit with a chain,, (for fun – really)? A chain to bind a spiritual being? (I do believe the Bible completely). I thought angels were ministering spirits (Heb 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?).They have bodies and yet are able to be concealed (Numbers 23 – 3 times concealed, ,, vss 23, 24, & 26 – Balaam and his beast of burden vs33).2) rape human women, first you took liberty with the text in using the word rape. Vs 2 of Genesis 6 (and they took them wives of all that they chose – does not sound like rape to me).Second a very loose translation of the words “sons of God” which can’t be backed up Biblically. Let’s just combine their offspring – the men of renoun with the legions of Greek and Roman mythology why don’t we?. 3) legion and herd of swine with angels could have just flown away,A) (about 2,000 – using legion very loosely – in one man yet now in 2,000 swine ;;; 2,000 stacked up in A body together. B) as angels they could have just flown away,,, so how did they leave after the swine were drowned? I guess they swam (did swim) away.B) they do not have to have a body with which to interact with mankind – as you pointed out in Luke 8:31 And they besought him that he would not command them to go out into the deep. They can function with or without a body.We do not know what (form of) body any of these have, for even Adam and Eve had their bodies changed from what they were before the fall. And does it not say of Christ – Hebrews 10:5Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: Christ had a human body prepared for Him.Christ could disguise himself as he did during the 40 days after His resurrection, and so can satan as we are told he comes as an angel of light. They are not bound to one form, source, type. (Remember the Theophonies of the Old Testament when God, Christ, The Holy Spirit – Trinity would use human forms to walk amongst man)?Luke 10:17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.Devils, satan, all power of the enemy (all in the same category). But note Jesus did not address demons or fallen angels, why? Or did he. satan and all the power of the enemy – – that is addressed Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:If satan is the originator of the first transgression again God (Isaiah 14) and he begiled Eve then any and all of these mentioned – forces are by him and under his control…..but, how far we came from ((what if Adam and Eve had eaten of the tree if life in a fallen state))…Just some points to ponder. |
| Ricky Grimsley |
I learned how to read by the Dake’s annotated reference bible. Im as convinced of “sons of god” being angels as i am that i live in texas. The demons long to reside in a body because they are disembodied spirits. Angels do not they are the princes of the air. Angels have to need of this. Luke 11:24-26 KJVS[24] When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will return unto my house whence I came out. [25] And when he cometh, he findeth it swept and garnished. [26] Then goeth he, and taketh to him seven other spirits more wicked than himself; and they enter in, and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. |
| Ricky Grimsley |
Why do you feel sons of god are different in Genesis 6 from job? |
| Louise Cummings |
I don’t see any difference in them except because they dined and ate the tree God told them not to. God had to give Moses the Law. Where they would know right from. Then Abraham was living in a place where they served many gods. The Lord called Abraham and told them out and go to a city that He would show Him. He carried his family. And left. The place where they stopped. God told him as far as he could see and walk He would give them. He had Abraham to be circumcised, and all his people. That’s what separated Jews and Gentiles. It’s a long story. But God told Abraham all this land belongs to you. That’s one reason I believe in pre Trib. You know how evil Sodom and Gorrma had gotten. They were not yet to the place whereGod gave Him. Cannan land. But the Lord told them to flee. Get out He was going to destroy that city because of the sin there. Abraham was leaving but lot Abrahams nephew wouldn’t go because of his family didn’t want to leave. The Lord sent an angel and picked up Lot and his family and took them out before he could destroy the city. As long as one manofGod was there Godwouldnt destroy the City. I believe as long asChristians are here. The great tribulations won’t come until the Church is gone. I’m not talking denominations I’m talking about Christians. I could tell you more reasons. But I’m messing up awful because I’m tired. |
| David Lewayne Porter |
Ricky Grimsley1) dake is not inerrant. It is personal opinion as with anyone. Be very careful (I also have a dakes – and have gleaned some good from it but also found a considerable amount of trash).2) sons of God – there are three categories of the sons of God, a) sons by creating – God created us all including the angels and heavenly host, b) Son by begetting – Jesus Christ is the only Son by begetting, c) adoption – the redeemed according to Paul, not to mention John in St John 1: 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.And then Luke in Luke 20:36Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.? Does the devil actually have children? 1 John 3:10In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.And John 8:44 ye are of your father the devil, and the lust of your father ye shall do…? |
| Ricky Grimsley |
I know dake is fallible. I dont share his view on the trinity or his eschatology. I do believe the devil has children. There are things are being created in labs right now that i believe fit the bill. I believe that the spirits can use bodies that dont have spirits at their on whim. Like in the case of moses where God called him home but his body was still viable and satan wanted it (jude 9). I feel that the monstrosities that were are creating in labs all over the world are going to be the things we deal with in revelation 9 for example. |
| David Lewayne Porter |
(1st – very loose liberty with Jude)2nd) our views of differing opinions on God’s foreknowledge and plans, I believe God has the creatures in Rev 9 already prepared and does not need man to make them,, “they come out of the smoke from out of the bottomless pit” – that does not sound like the laboratories of men to me. (Also from the river Euphrates). |
| Ricky Grimsley |
I hear ya. I think that where the spirits come from. I think the bodies are made in the labs. I wish i could download all the crazy stuff i have read and seen in science and the occult and see what you might say from a biblical point of view. |
| Ricky Grimsley |
Are you familiar with “transhumanism”? |
| David Lewayne Porter |
I have a lot of knowledge of the cult and occult, more than most people need to know. That is the reason I hold to a lot of the beliefs I do. satan is more tricky than most give him credit for. That is how he slides in behind other things unawares. |
| Ricky Grimsley |
No doubt about that. |
| David Lewayne Porter |
Transhumanism, I am familiar on a level to discuss it, but that is as far as I go with it.I rate most of people’s learning and knowledge as ((2 Timothy 3:7Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth)).What Is The Point Of It ALL?I see no practical Spiritual basis of need. |
| Charles Page |
Why didn’t Jesus talk to Herod? Was there a reason he called him “fox”? |
| Ricky Grimsley |
Transhumanism is a big sign post that the end is here. I realize that you dont believe that transhumanists have the same plan as the “sons of God” of Genesis 6 like i do but their plan to make humanity evolve is actually alot closer than people think. Even my wife thought i was crazy until she started learning about some of it told her years ago at texas tech this year. |
| David Lewayne Porter |
Herod = fox, sly, sneaky, conniving, untrusting of anyone around him – family – friends – colleagues. Willing to do whatever it took to protect and preserve his position. |
| David Lewayne Porter |
Ricky GrimsleyI believe you in the facts of what they are attempting, but I believe they are as wrong as Two left feet. I also believe that it will help to hasten the Lord’s return. As one person pointed out on another post “when the son of man cometh shall He find faith upon the earth.”???. |
| Ricky Grimsley |
Charles Page it wasnt time to see herod yet. It sounds like jesus was saying “i have work to do. Catch me if you can”. Probably used fox because of the sly but weak comparison? |
| Charles Page |
I believe that Jesus was using the term in the clearest sense of ‘goyim’ One not redeemable The same sense the Muslim refer to us a white devils – not fully human nor redeemable. |
| David Lewayne Porter |
Charles Page I believe that is a little of a stretch. |
| Charles Page |
David, such a human exists and Jesus affirmed it! |
| Ricky Grimsley |
Isnt goyim hebrew? |
| David Lewayne Porter |
Did he call (it) herod? Charles Page.And when did Jesus affirm it? |
| Charles Page |
I’m learning to ignore your comments, Ricky Grimsley |
| David Lewayne Porter |
Now why you have to be like that to Ricky Grimsley, Charles Page?It gives us all good practice in explaining our beliefs. |
| Ricky Grimsley |
Cmon Charles Page. You should be happy i an here. Other wise the others would just have you to disagree with all the time. I keep them distracted from you. |
| Louise Cummings |
I had a funeral today. I haven’t had time to be on face boohoo ok. I’m totally lost in what you All are talking about. I got on it Long enough to hit like on a couple |
| David Lewayne Porter |
Welcome Louise Cummings |
| Louise Cummings |
Thanks. But I don’t know where to start |
| David Lewayne Porter |
Do any of us? |
| Louise Cummings |
I keep falling asleep. I recon I must be really tired. |
| Louise Cummings |
Ricky Grimsley I appreciate the precaution. But what are you protecting me from. Do they disagree with me that much? Lol. |
| Louise Cummings |
At least I have half of the Bible written by the Time I get finished. They must agree with something. |
| Ricky Grimsley |
My precaution was for charles. |
| Louise Cummings |
Oh. That makes me feel better. Lol. |
| Louise Cummings |
Louise Cummings hi |
| Louise Cummings |
|
| Louise Cummings |
I didn’t know that sticker was on there. Those things just pop up. I don’t mean for them too. If an ugly one pops up just ignore it. I try to keep them from piping up unless it’s a thumbs up. Meaning good. I hope no one took this one wrong. I don’t know what was said before it. I’ll have to look and see. |
| Louise Cummings |
God did predestined us all to go to Heaven. But He gave you the choice whether to except it are not. Just like the forbidden tree. They could believe the devil talking through the serpent or snake. Telling Them God was wrong. They would just become wiser. But God Said if you eat of it that day you will die. They believed the devil and ate it. That day they died Spiritually. And placed on death toll. Now we all have to die physically some day unless lwe are alive when Jesus comes. Then Jesus said we would be changed in a moment in the twinkling of an eye and the dead in Christ would rise first. And we which are alive would be caught up together to meet the Lord in the air. So shall we ever be with the Lord. They was deceived by the devil. But God said in John 3:16 that He ( God ) so love the world , not just a few or certain ones. But the world that whosoever. That means us all. I am a who so ever that believes in Him. Should not perish but have ever lasting life. Romans 10:9 I believe that’s he Scripture says If we Confessim with our mouth and believe with our heart that God rai Him from. The dead. We Shall be saved. ( the thing we have to do is believe, Confess Him. We , everybody. Will not let Satan deceive them again. Every one who believes in Him. Shall be saved. |
| Carol Hargis |
Yes I agree, also keep his 10 commandments and walk as close to Jesus as close as we can and live as much like him as we can. We are not perfect by no means, but we do have to serve the Father. |
| Louise Cummings |
Carol Hargis. Amen. |
| Carol Hargis |
Thanks |
| Charles Page |
if you are rapture ready you got to prayed up! living in perfection! |
| Charles Page |
rapture bondage! |
| Carol Hargis |
Charles in Gods eyes yes and I think in Gods eyes we that keep his word are perfect.Let the Holy Ghost lead us. |
| Charles Page |
I am perfect, I am a new born child of God. |
| Louise Cummings |
Amen. |
| Ricky Grimsley |
Charles Page you are a preterist but believe in a pretrib rapture? |
| Louise Cummings |
mNo I don’t think all the Old Testament prophecies has been fulfilled. Like Enoch in the Old Testament , you will read about it in the New Testament. The Book of Jude. Only one chapter in let. But you know Enoch and Eligiah never died. They were translated up before death. Well in Jude he said he was the seventh from Adam. Yet God showed him a vision before he was translated. He said Behold The Lord Cometh with ten thousand of His Saints Riding on white horses. I do believe in Pretrib. Have a lot of Scriptures to back it up. I don’t fall out with anyone who believes in Mid Trib or Post Trib. The main thing is be ready when He does come. I can’t see where they get their Scripture fro |
| Carol Hargis |
Yes some things still have to be fulfilled.God can do all so fast he is God. |
| Louise Cummings |
In Gods perfection. He knows our hearts. But to live up mans perfection would be almost impossible. Man never could please man even Jesus man found fault. But Jesus is theOnly one that ever dined on earth. The Bible says guild was never found in His Mouth. He lived the Law perfectly. Without sin. Then in the New Testament He brought Grace. That doesn’t mean we can live any way we want to. And everything is ok. No we have His Word we have to live by. The Bible is so interesting. I love studying the Bible. It’s so great. |
| Carol Hargis |
We all need to be ready. Yes that is the main thing. |
| Charles Page |
regardless of our eschatological view! |
| Carol Hargis |
Right |
| Ricky Grimsley |
Any moment could be our last breath or the last time we get to share jesus with someone before they die. We have to live with that in mind “redeeming the time” so to speak. |
Varnel Watson
talk to me Jesse Morrell dont just post spam Is GOD in FULL control of YOUR Free will Billy Monroe Poff Philip Williams
Varnel Watson
WHERE does the BIBLE say that William DeArteaga Ricky Grimsley
Varnel Watson
yes he is Charles Page Peter Vandever Isara Mo Ray E Horton Neil Steven Lawrence Jim Price GOD is in TOTAL control of #freeGrace RichardAnna Boyce
RichardAnna Boyce
AMEN Free Grace means saved by grace only, through faith only in Jesus Who is GOD 🙂
Charles Page
yes
Isara Mo
During take off the pilot is in control.
After take off when he puts the auto pilot who is in control the pilot or the plane?
Just a thought
Neil Steven Lawrence
No he’s not… Because the Calvinists are still busy trying to protect him.
Varnel Watson
GOD is in total control Jim Price
Jon Sellers
Calvinists teach meticulous Providence. That means that God has ordained everything that happens, both good and evil from before the creation of the world.
The more orthodox view of providence says that God oversees all things so that nothing surprises him, nothing is outside of his understanding and ability to deal with and it allows for the free decisions of sentient beings such as people and devils. In my view the Calvinists are wrong.
Neil Steven Lawrence
Jon Sellers God does not ordain evil!! That is FATALISM and what Hindus, ancient pagan religions and Islam teach!
That is also why the way Calvinists explain themselves is a heresy.
Jon Sellers
I agree.
Varnel Watson
but GOD does make/create evil? Neil Steven Lawrence
Neil Steven Lawrence
Troy Day This is the age old question and probably the one that Satan blames God for. However you want to spin the argument, Yahweh did not create, manufacture, originate, envision, imagine, desire – evil.
Evil came out of the potential which freewill affords; a choice to reject the good which God’s will desires.
This is another proof that the Calvinist faulty construct fails to answer. If man’s free will is not involved in our salvation by God, then the Devil’s free will to fall could not have been involved in the first sin.
Varnel Watson
Neil Steven Lawrence Isaiah 45:7 King James Version (KJV) I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil:
Neil Steven Lawrence
Another reason why the KJV is inadequate.
Isaiah 45:7 New King James Version (NKJV)
7 I form the light and create darkness,
I make peace and create calamity;
I, the Lord, do all these things.’
Isaiah 45:7 New International Version (NIV)
7 I form the light and create darkness,
I bring prosperity and create disaster;
I, the Lord, do all these things.
Varnel Watson
GOD in total control does NOT mean GOD pre ordained
That’s even funny to suggest theologically
Jon Sellers
Troy Day it is absurd, I agree, but it is also exactly what Calvinists teach. It might help if you defined your understanding of what control means especially in distinction to what the Calvinist say.
Varnel Watson
Jon Sellers No – not at all Please read some Wesley who clarifies this well for our Pentecostal tradition What you suggest is open theism which I dont think many of us believe but there has been some within the tradition
Varnel Watson
Neil Steven Lawrence what does your MDiv say about this CONTROL issue with God Jim Price raised again recently Is Pentecostalism turning into a progressive open theism? I dont think so What does fellow theologian Francisco Arriola has to say about that ?
Neil Steven Lawrence
Troy Day I have never ‘tasted’ any scripture in the Bible which turned God‘s sovereignty into fatalism.
The Quran on the other hand is the exact opposite.
Ricky Weeks
Yes yes yes