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Parham’s believed that Spirit baptized (with the evidence of an unknown tongue) Christians would be taken in the rapture. The bride of Christ consisted of 144,000 people taken from the church who would escape the horrors of the tribulation. It was Parham’s desire for assurance that he would be included in the rapture that led him to search for uniform evidence of Spirit baptism.
NOW does anyone in this group know when was Charles Parham himself baptized with the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues?
John Kissinger [02/03/2016 7:48 AM]
SEEMS LIKE NO ONE here has the answer for this MOST very important historical and theological question. We know later in life Charles deviated from sound doctrine, SO when was it? WHEN WAS CHARLES PARHAM HIMSELF BAPTIZED IN THE HOLY SPIRIT AND SPOKE IN TONGUES? http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/when-was-charles-parham-himself-baptized-in-the-holy-spirit-and-spoke-in-tongues/
John Kissinger [02/03/2016 4:23 PM]
Does ANYONE know? In a 1922 letter to Eudorus N. Bell, Ozman claims that she did not understand tongues to be the evidence of the Spirit prior to her infilling: “Before receiving the Comforter, I did not know that I would speak in tongues when I received the Holy Ghost for I did not know it was Bible. But after I received the Holy Spirit speaking in tongues it was revealed to me that I had the promise of the Father as it is written and as Jesus said.” The night after commencing speaking in tongues, Ozman’s utterances were understood by a Bohemian, who heard her speaking in a service at the school’s mission in downtown Topeka. This incident confirmed to the Parham and his students that at least some of the tongue-speaking were intelligible foreign languages.
Charles Page [02/03/2016 4:29 PM]
Many of us Pentecostals are bohemian and we speak in tongues.
John Kissinger [02/03/2016 4:30 PM]
Reportedly 2 days after Agnes Ozman, Parham and other students also began speaking in tongues. Now this is HARD to find information not widely promoted. Took only 2 days to find it 🙂 and it is NOT in a scientific research but a devotional without cited source. Anyone has the source? Charles Page Timothy Carter Luchen Bailey Henry Volk https://books.google.com/books?id=5g-94jmpmVAC&pg=PA30&dq=did+parham+speak+in+tongues&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjOsZT9w9zKAhXH2SYKHSHpCJwQ6AEIWTAH#v=onepage&q=two%20days%20later&f=false
Don Williams
Uh… 1908?
Don Williams
The Welsh Revival(s) fits in here someplace. Tongues were a common manifestation during the Welsh Revival.
Varnel Watson
not sure Don Williams Welsh Revival had little to do with Parham HOWEVER the question comes timely with what Link Hudson proposed as fake or witch tongues @ Azusa – it goes on with Parhams theory after 1906 especially if he was NOT yet baptized when vizited LA
Link Hudson
I’d have to look at the post. I recall I said demons could fake tongues, and the Azusa Street revival had a problem with spiritists, (meaning spiritualists) coming in and causing problems. I don’t know if they said that spiritualists were imitating tongues per se, but someone posted where Seymour told about a demonic manifestation of a different sort. I do believe demonized people might be able to speak in foreign lnguages or jabber.
Varnel Watson
when Parham first visited first Azusa he dismissed their experience as fake and demonic – at least some of the praxis It will be a good question to know IF Parham spoke in tongues at that time given there was a larger tongue talking movement in America already http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/speaking-in-tongues-in-america-prior-to-the-azusa-street-ourcog/
Link Hudson
I can’t find the thread where we were discussing this, but do you think the passage about the father not giving children stone for bread, snake for fish, egg for scorpion in Luke proves that no Christians ever prophesy falsely in the assembly, too? Or do you just think it applies to tongues,
Varnel Watson
here is the topic and my post – pls dont misrepresent my words again as you have the habit of doing I’ve said nothing about prophecy AND this OP is about Parham not to be flooded with your private diviations
https://www.facebook.com/groups/pentecostaltheologygroup/permalink/2123505121037825/?comment_id=2126900160698321&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D
Link Hudson
Troy Day Misrepresented you? how? I asked you a question. I asked it in the other thread. You can reply there if you wish.
Peter Vandever
1901
Varnel Watson
no such proof any where – Agnes Osman got it in 1901 BUT no proof Parham did until much later – what is your source for 1901?
Peter Vandever
Show me any proof he didn’t. He has power on his revival in KC in 1901.
Varnel Watson
Peter the ONLY source we have which is NOT even pin pointed to 1901 is by Sarah E. Parham The life of Charles F. Parham, founder of the Apostolic Faith movement I am pasting the quote below but no one else NOT even Parham ever claimed that
he perched for the first time tongues is the evidence on Jan 21, 1901 – he did NOT speak in tongues right then
shortly his baby son Charles passed in March 1901 and turmoil followed
Stone’s Folly was closed down very shortly after that same year
we do not have him directly stating receiving the experience until much later when it was a matter of defending Azusa theology, defending his KKK ties and other allegations
https://books.google.com/books?id=GJ_tAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA54&lpg=PA54&dq=this+mighty+truth+to+the+world.+And+if+I+was+willing+to+stand+for+it,+with+all+the+persecutions,+hardships,+trials,+slander,+scandal+that+it+would+entailed,+He+would+give+me+the+blessing&source=bl&ots=d_kIlQHXws&sig=ACfU3U0M0JZrBkVUX5ZENyHZJuC0En63Ww&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiw_-fY7ZPhAhUuhOAKHQ5RC74Q6AEwA3oECAcQAQ#v=onepage&q=this%20mighty%20truth%20to%20the%20world.%20And%20if%20I%20was%20willing%20to%20stand%20for%20it%2C%20with%20all%20the%20persecutions%2C%20hardships%2C%20trials%2C%20slander%2C%20scandal%20that%20it%20would%20entailed%2C%20He%20would%20give%20me%20the%20blessing&f=false
Philip Williams
I know Parham’s only surviving granddaughter, though she is now elderly. I know for a fact that she is Spirit filled.
Link Hudson
Would she know about Parham’s experience? Let’s ask Brother Synan.
Varnel Watson
most will tell you Parham gat baptized later
Peter Vandever
I would be interested in interviewing her for Azusa Report at some point. For real.
Varnel Watson
I would be very careful with the facts Had a similar experience with older relative who had every good intention to build the family name and stated lots of historical non-factual fiction – like Parham baptized in 1901 and similar
Philip Williams
There is something special about Roberta (Parham’s granddaughter). Two of my dearest sisters accompanied her to Mongolia in 2001 in commemoration of the tongue spoken by Agnes Ozman. She has the ear of the very top scholars and officials in Israel and set up programs in Oxford and Cambridge. She established prayer houses by the Old City in Jerusalem, by the Israeli embassy in Washington, and at the United Nations in NYC.
Varnel Watson
I believe her story. I believe she believes that is how it happened BUT what other proof do we have for that?
Philip Williams
I have heard a few words from other languages that I spoke in tongues, usually words for God. Those occasions, which occurred in times of crisis, were a great comfort to me.
Varnel Watson
Henry Volk was posted Agnes Ozman’s automatic writing before with some concerns Of course Henry dont know Chinese and I’ve asked some friend that studied Chin. philology @ Harvard who said it is not a common Mandarin BUT there are similarities with earlier not merely Chinese dynasty letters though they could make no sense of it Parham was so convinced of this that he even sent missionaries to foreign countries.
However By 1909 many Pentecostals were becoming skeptical of missionary tongues, at least as a widespread phenomenon” – this is the time of Azusa 1906-1909 I believe Parham was baptized right around there shortly after 1909-1910 because right after that we have the Cashwell revivals in TN and the Carolinas
HOWEVER Parhams period right then was connected with KKK and other questionable deeds which may have misplaced his tongue experience from the right focus and level of importance I believe Parham was NOT baptized in 1901 Peter Vandever as per the comments by Link Hudson I often have no clue where he gets his sources or information
Link Hudson
Vinson Synan said in one of their papers they said someone in a Chinese laundry identified the language as Chinese. I think that was spoken Chinese, btw.
As for the writing, parts of it look vaguly like Arabic. Mongolian uses Arabic script up and down. I never studied Mongolian, and I can’t say for sure it’s their letters, but it would be interesting to show that part of it to someone familiar with Mongolian script throughout history.
Varnel Watson
I have heard the story before – I believe it was so
Link Hudson
https://www.google.com/search?q=mongolian+script+ancient&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjX4_my75PhAhVHUt8KHS9ZAdcQ_AUIDigB&biw=1093&bih=500#imgrc=Pg8ktUaimgTHHM:
Link Hudson
https://www.google.com/search?q=nestorian+scripture+in+mongolian+script&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiOnI6b75PhAhWOmeAKHX7TDfgQ_AUIDigB&biw=1093&bih=500#imgrc=AaJnc8yGgz0oaM:
Link Hudson
https://www.flickr.com/photos/worldrevivalnetwork/2259795584
Link Hudson
bottom right looks a little like ‘wu’ or something like that in Arabic on the end. But it looks more like English J, than Arabic on it’s side or what I have seen of the same shape in Mongolian, IMO.
Varnel Watson
Did you know Link Hudson, when accused of homosexuality, pedophilia, sodomy and KKK ties nothing was said about baptism with speaking in tongues experience? I would have imagined that would have been a more prominent accusation for the times
Link Hudson
Troy Day No, bad accusations make the news. He was accused of some bad stuff in a political campaign.
Varnel Watson
YES but speaking in tongues or healing without license were much more prominent accusations for the day Just read any San Francisco paper on Azusa – they even brought up the magic and witches accusations as you yourself already pointed out. My question is – IF there were gonna accuse him WHY not also use speaking in tongues if he was indeed speaking in tongues He was a KKK member for sure though this did not help him much in the court trials
Link Hudson
Evidence for his KKJ membership please. He rented a KKK hall and used that achronymn for a message or series…Kommitment and two other ‘K’ words.
Varnel Watson
The “father of American Pentecostalism,” Charles Parham, continued to endorse the Ku Klux Klan as late as 1927, Robeck said. https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/1994/december12/4te058.html
Philip Williams
Whether he was himself baptized of the Spirit, he was the author of the initial evidence theology that birthed the Pentecostals.
Salvatore Tropea Sr
It was before January 1, 1900 for there was a prayer meeting in his house on December 31, 1899 and after midnight people began to worship in the spirit, speaking in tongues. John Sherrill, a spirit filled Episcopalian year ago wrote a wonderful history of the 20th century outpouring in his book “They Speak With Other Tongues.” .
Philip Williams
Salvatore Tropea Sr a classic
Varnel Watson
a classic error perhaps – wasnt it 1901? – Parham first saw speaking in tongues in Shiloh He only later connected it with HSB He had not yet arrived at the connection neither instructed his students that the initial evidence was missionary tongues The theology came only AFTER the experience Now his own baptism was… WHEN?