10 Things in the BIBLE that cannot be explained without the PRE-ADAMIC RACE GAP THEORY

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1. Where lost souls come from?

2. Where the demons come from?

3. When did Satan fall from the Heavens?

4. How did 1/3 of the angels fall with Satan?

5. Why do the Bible tells us TWO creation stories?

6. Why was earth created shapeless and void (this brings to perspective flat earth vs a globe as well)?

7. Why do the Bible tells us TWO flood narratives?

8. Age of earth?

9. The disappearing of the dinosaurs and why where no dinosaurs in Noah’s ark?

10. The whole doctrine of Original sin and its coming into man’s flesh?

Just try to explain the above without pre-Adamic race GAP theory and you will see for yourself…

PENTECOSTAL THEOLOGY GROUP DISCUSSION ON GAP THEORY:

Ricky Grimsley I would disagree with 1,2 and 4.
Peter Fiske I can’t find any common ground with what you’re proposing.
Troy Day Ricky Grimsley they are all connected
Peter Fiske When someone thinks about dinosaurs, millions of years ultimately comes to mind because our culture has been so brainwashed by evolutionary thinking, which supposed deep-time is, and why people erroneously think dinosaurs died out 60 million years ago before our supposed ape-like ancestors evolved some 5 million supposed years ago. And that’s why some well-meaning (and some not so well-meaning but malicious false teachers like the late Finis Dake) but theologically stunted apologists , have tried to compromise the Bible with millions of years false teaching. Dinosaurs Aren’t a problem for scripture, when one considers that Job 40 talks about a large sauropod dinosaur [https://answersingenesis.org/…/could-behemoth-have…/] that dragon legends from aronund the world correspond with what we would call dinosaurs.
Tim Law I always tell the Theistic evolution group if you believe in death before Adam then who sinned before Adam. Death, sickness, and disease are all a result of the fall of Adam.
Peter Fiske Romans 5:12 , and it also contradicts a supposed Gap in Genesis 1:2 because if there were millions of years before Adam , some pre adamic race falling because of sin, that would put sin before Adam and Eve as well and would contradict the scriptures.
Ricky Grimsley So Lucifer’s fall did nothing?
Peter Fiske Ricky Grimsley, Lucifer fell in the Garden of Eden , wickedness was found in him (in Eden, Ezekiel 28:13-15) and in turn he tempted Adam and Eve to rebel against God’s command.
Ricky Grimsley Wickedness from where?
Ricky Grimsley Ezekiel gives a list of sins.
Gary Micheal Epping Peter Fiske Nowhere does it say that Lucifer fell in the Garden of Eden, but from the mount of God.
Peter Fiske Gary Micheal Epping, yes it does, read Ezekiel 28:13-15.
Peter Fiske Ricky Grimsley, wickedness was found in the heart of Lucifer , so tell me, Ezekiel 28:13-15 tells us that Lucifer was in Eden when sin/iniquity was found in him. How then could Lucifer fall before the Garden of Eden was created if he was still a good angel in the Garden of Eden as Ezekiel 28:13 tells us?
Peter Fiske Gary Micheal Epping, the *mount of God* is a reference to heaven, and the event of Lucifer’s fall is also told in Isaiah 14 in more detail. Need to get your nose out of the Dake Bible!
Ricky Grimsley It doesn’t say where Lucifer was when he sinned.
Gary Micheal Epping Peter Fiske No it doesn’t say he fell while in the garden of Eden, but fell while in heaven.  Get it straight.
Gary Micheal Epping Jesus tells his disciples in Luke 10:18, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.”
Ricky Grimsley Again. He still has access to heaven.
Gary Micheal Epping Ricky Grimsley Yes he did as satan. I was just trying to establish when Lucifer sinned and was thrown out of heaven and was transformed into satan.
Peter Fiske Gary Micheal Epping, and of course Jesus would have seen Lucifer fall, since Jesus is God the Son, it is he who banished Lucifer and his demons from heaven, to take temporary control over the Earth.
Gary Micheal Epping Thomas henry Jr if nothing caused the world to be void then why is verse two there? Why did moses not leave it out?
Thomas Henry Jr. Gary Micheal Epping  it shows a God started with a lump of clay and molded it to fit mankind. We weren’t a part 2 to a failed creation sandwich between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2
Peter Fiske Thomas, Gappists are blinded by Satanic false doctrine, I had no idea that this unscriptural Genesis compromise held such Sway in the minds of it’s deluded adherence like Gary Micheal Epping.
Peter Fiske Gary Micheal Epping, not a blessed thing caused the world to become void, because there was no pre-adamic world where Lucifer was judged and the dinosaurs and soulless cavemen were allegedly  destroyed by some mythical event called Lucifer’s flood. That’s extraneous rubbish added to scripture by Genesis compromising false teachers, of which Dake is perhaps the most famous.
Thomas Henry Jr. Peter Fiske  i am more shocked that “spirit-filled” Christians believe this heresy
Peter Fiske Thomas, read 2 Timothy 4:3-4.https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/…
Ricky Grimsley Thomas Henry Jr. I’m shocked that people want to you words like heresy and isolate most of the world because they want to believe science lies.
Peter Fiske Ricky Grimsley, as a science instructor, I’m shocked that you are so gullible as to conflate real science with evolutionary thinking, which is just a philosophical interpretation. Science has nothing to do with millions of years, and our starting place should be solid foundation of scripture, not the cracked foundation of materialistic evolutionary thinking.
Ricky Grimsley Look. I have my opinion and you have yours. Do you think the earth has corners?
Peter Fiske Ricky Grimsley, opinions are like rear ends, everyone has one. Opinions backed up by objective facts are what matters, and there are no objective facts that prove the Earth is 4.6 billion years old and that life evolved from nonliving chemicals by any naturalistic or supposed theistic guided process. You need to wrap your head around that objective truth before we can have an intelligent conversation.
Ricky Grimsley My objective truth is the Bible is true but the stars are really far away. Adam wouldn’t even have seen any stars.
Ricky Grimsley Anyway. You can’t change my mind on this.
Peter Fiske Ricky Grimsley, you can’t tell me that you don’t cling to Dake, that he hasn’t been a significant influence on your erroneous view of Genesis!?
Peter Fiske Ricky Grimsley,((My objective truth is the Bible))While on the surface that sounds quite agreeable and reasonable, it’s actually doesn’t mean the same thing when I say that. The Bible doesn’t teach that the Earth is 4.6 billion years old. There’s no need for that much time unless one wants to corkscrew evolutionary thinking into Genesis for the nefarious purpose of altering! the context of the first 11 chapters. That’s what false prophets do
Ricky Grimsley No one is altering any texts. I believe that in genesis 1:1 God created the earth and by 1:2 it had been destroyed and God is remaking the earth 6000 thousand years ago.
Thomas Henry Jr. All of those can be proven without the gap theory
Peter Fiske Well, I’m a science instructor graduate in physics education with an undergraduate in mechanical engineering, and in my ears of studying science in college and just for fun, there isn’t a substantial and foolproof line of evidence to prove that the Earth is supposedly 4.6 billion years old. The only reason we need deep time is too find room for millions of years and evolution to have occurred period without deep time, no evolution, and without evolution, we must have been intelligently and purposefully created by a Creator God. So it is a profound mystery to me why some self-professed Christians have to try to use such ridiculous false ideas as a non-existent “gap” in Genesis to try to appease secular scientists.
Thomas Henry Jr. Peter Fiske  i am shocked any Christian believe in it when Scripture says there is no DEATH until Adam
Ricky Grimsley No death of humans. But death was planned for otherwise there wouldn’t have been a free of life that Adam and ever were banished from?  Didn’t God do the first killing?
Troy Day Peter Fiske PE is not PT 🙂 Thomas Henry Jr. you must be reading NLT Romans 5:12 through one man not through Adam
Thomas Henry Jr. Adam is the man
Peter Fiske Troy Day, the Greek word for man in Romans 5:12 is “anthropos” (where we get the term anthropomorphic).https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm…The Hebrew word for men in Genesis 1:26 is “A’dam” ( where we get the name of Adam, the first man from). https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm…The representative man that Romans 5:12 talks about is the first man, Adam, not some soulless pre-Adamite caveman that Dake dreamt up out of nowhere.
Troy Day Thomas Henry Jr. Come on Prove them When did Satan fall on earth?
Thomas Henry Jr. After 6 day
Troy Day Says where in the BIBLE?
Thomas Henry Jr. He is called Lucifer and walked in the garden on the 6th day the fact God says there is no sin in the world
Troy Day Says where in the BIBLE?
Gary Micheal Epping Clearly Satan was the serpent in the Garden of Eden, “And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years  (REV20:2).”Satan was already a liar and sinner when he came to Eve. “And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, ‘Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die (GEN 2:16-17).’” “But the serpent said to the woman, “You will NOT surely die.” So, Satan was a liar, and already a fallen being with sin existing before the fall of Adam and Eve. But, that was not his first sin.
Troy Day Not just being a being of a fallen kind but he was there with the purposes to make other creations fall like he did – meaning a well established plan to undermine the authority of God
Peter Fiske Troy Day,  Ezekiel 28:13-15,  Lucifer was in the Garden of Eden until inquity was found in him.  Eden was created during Creation Week (Genesis 1:1-31),  so sometime between then and Genesis 3, when the events of the fall of Adam occurred. Genesis 4:25 tells us that Adam was 130 and Seth was born as a replacement for Abel. So one can infer that Adam and Eve were in the Garden for approximately 100 years.
Thomas Henry Jr. Peter Fiske  right!!!!!!
Gary Micheal Epping Peter Fiske Seth was not born in the garden of Eden.  Scripture says that only Adam and Eve were  thrown out of the garden after they sinned.
Thomas Henry Jr. Gary Micheal Epping  he never said Seth was
Peter Fiske Gary Micheal Epping, reread what I said, and then reread Genesis 4:25. I didn’t say if they were in the Garden when Seth was born, I said that Adam was 130 and Seth was born, and it’s very likely that some of the events told about in Genesis 3 occurred within a 10 to 20-year time frame before the birth of Seth and after the Fall from Grace.
Thomas Henry Jr. Peter Fiske  right and even Jewish scholars and Rabbis teach the same.
Peter Fiske Thomas Henry Jr. Yep👌👍.
Troy Day hey Thomas and Peter Fiske  enough with the folklore stories Here is what the BIBLE says  Ezekiel 28  You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you. …. So I threw you to the earthThere was plenty of time from the day lucifer was created and the point when he was degraded from heaven to earth
Thomas Henry Jr. I didn’t give folklore
Ricky Grimsley Except for his sin required people. Ezekiel 28:16 KJVS[16] By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
Peter Fiske Troy, Ezekiel 28:13-15 (NIV)”13.  YOU WERE IN EDEN, THE GARDEN OF GOD:every precious stone adorned you:carnelian, chrysolite and emerald,topaz, onyx and jasper,lapis lazuli, turquoise and beryl.bYour settings and mountingscwere made of gold;on the day you were created they were prepared.14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub,for so I ordained you.You were on the holy mount of God;you walked among the fiery stones.15 You were blameless in your waysfrom the day you were createdtill wickedness was found in you.”http://biblehub.com/niv/ezekiel/28.htm
Peter Fiske Ricky Grimsley, the KJV has confusing verbiage because it is 400 years old and the English language has changed considerably 400 years.https://christiananswers.net/dictionary/kjvwords.htmlYou’re not any less holy for using a modern translation!
Ricky Grimsley Peter Fiske I read the esv now.
Peter Fiske Ricky Grimsley, good for you, as long as you do it without any of the Dake commentaries, you’ll be fine.
Ricky Grimsley I have moved on from most of Dake’s teachings.
Gary Micheal Epping Peter Fiske Love it or not, “The King James Bible—the bestselling book of all time, the most quoted book in the English language—is celebrating its 400th anniversary this year.” Hard to argue with success.   (https://www.wsj.com/…/SB1000142405311190391810457650278…)
Peter Fiske Gary Micheal Epping , it isn’t about the KJV being the most prolific and best selling Bible in 400 years, in fact the 400-year age of the KJV illustrates my point. The fact that Dake, and other false prophets use KJV, and the biblical illiterates that follow them, indicates a pathetic lack of in context truthful knowledge of biblical doctrine among too many who called themselves ‘Christian.’First of all, which KJV are you referring to? The KJV 1, the 1611 manuscript, had to be significantly revised in 1769 at both Cambridge and Oxford Universities. The reason? The English language has significantly changed in the 158  years between 1611 and 1769! https://rickbeckman.org/log/kjv-1611-vs-1769/Therefore, the Bible that we call the AV (Authorized Version) KJV is either the Cambridge or the Oxford revision of the 1611 original manuscript.
Gary Micheal Epping Peter Fiske You don’t need to use the KJV to make a case for a time before Gen 1:2.
Peter Fiske Gary Micheal Epping, ((You don’t need to use the KJV to make a case for a time before Gen 1:2))Using the KJV makes it a lot easier to make mistakes since the language used is 400 year old English prose, which most people nowadays short of Shakespearean literature professors, aren’t proficient in.https://christiananswers.net/dictionary/kjvwords.html
Ricky Grimsley Demons can come from genesis 6. You don’t need oldEarth for that.
Gary Micheal Epping I am assuming you are referring to demons as fallen angels. if so, then they fell when Lucifer fell.
Ricky Grimsley Demons are not fallen angels
Gary Micheal Epping Ricky Grimsley What are they then?
Ricky Grimsley They are the spirits of the  offspring of the fallen angels and people   Perhaps some are the souls of people that lived before adam. If they existed
Gary Micheal Epping Ricky Grimsley Some believe that Rev. 12:4 is a reference to a third of the angels falling and becoming demons.
Ricky Grimsley I don’t think rev 12:4 has happened yet. Satan and his angels have still had access to the heavenlies this whole time. He accuses the brethren and also the passages in Job.
Gary Micheal Epping Ricky Grimsley Jesus tells his disciples in Luke 10:18, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.” So, it could not be later in the Tribulation period.  It had to be before the time of Christ, and there is no reference the event happening between Genesis and the time of Christ. So, it had to happen prior to the tempting of Adam and Eve.
Ricky Grimsley Well he was back in heaven by the time of job. Also it says he accuses the brethren day and night.
Gary Micheal Epping Ricky Grimsley Yes that is true. I was trying to make reference to the time when Lucifer was thrown out of heaven to the ground as satan.
Troy Day except Ricky Grimsley demons were already present in Gen 6 so  they cant come from Gen 6 if they were already there
Ricky Grimsley Where does it say there were demons already?
Troy Day Are you saying there were no demons before Gen 6?
Ricky Grimsley Sure it’s possible but I don’t know that’s it possible to prove. You have to presuppose a pre-Adamou world and assume that whoever followed Satan became demons. There isn’t really proof of that is there?
Peter Fiske Troy Day, Genesis 6 doesn’t prove a pre-adamite world, in fact in Ezekiel  28:13-15 tells us that Lucifer was a good angel in the Garden of Eden until wickedness was found in him. You have to stick to God’s word minus Dake’s heretical commentaries.
Peter Fiske Gary Micheal Epping, which was after Creation Week, while Lucifer was still a good angel (Ezekiel 28:13) in the Garden of Eden.
Peter Fiske You don’t need an old Earth for anything, other than to compromise the literal canon of Genesis 1 with fallacious and heretical evolutionary ideas of millions of years in a mythical gap.
Gary Micheal Epping Peter Fiske But science overwhelmingly says old, even though you disagree.
Peter Fiske Gary Micheal Epping, you provide no evidence, all you do is spew out naked assertions and subjective talking points. That’s hardly the practice of a scholar who’s trying to make a case for particular point of view. I used to be an evolutionist, and it was hearing the damn the damnable Gap Theory, taught out of the heretical Dake Bible, that literally destroyed whatever confidence I had as a young spiritual truth-seeker in investigating biblical Christianity. So it doesn’t matter what the consensus opinion of the academic establishment, which is left-leaning and its politics and Godless and their worldview says, the science as I have shown doesn’t support suppose deep-time. I can see that you have no idea as to how to defend against what I’m saying from a scientific perspective, that’s okay, not everyone has to be a scientist. But let’s see you at least try to post a scientific case for millions of years from a non Darwinian, christian-based source. Hugh Ross would even do! I love dismantling Hugh Ross’s arguments.
Ricky Grimsley Don’t worry Peter Fiske, Dake will hug you when you get to heaven and say “I told you so”.
Peter Fiske Ricky Grimsley, unless he repented of misleading hundreds if not thousands of unsuspecting folks with Satanic false doctrine before he died in 1986, Finis Dake is in hell!
Gary Micheal Epping Peter Fiske Your scientific perspective doesn’t match up with what most scientists say. Overwhelmingly, scientists say, the earth is very very old, with Stephen Hawking stating, “Any reasonable model of the universe must start with a singularity. This would mean that science could predict that the universe must have had a beginning, but that it could not predict how the universe should begin: for that one would have to appeal to God.” (http://www.hawking.org.uk/the-origin-of-the-universe.html). He added, ‘The human race has existed as a separate species for about two million years. Civilisation began about ten thousand years ago, and the rate of development has been steadily increasing,” with the universe dated at 14.B years old.
Ricky Grimsley I would take you more seriously if you could refrain from calling us satanic because we believe in science. Or like we believe in normal things like the adam wouldn’t even see any stars when was created cause the light wasn’t visible.
Peter Fiske Gary Micheal Epping, 2 Timothy 4:3-4 (NIV) states as follows:”For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.”Remember that signature verse as I go down the line! You seem to want to defer to non-Christian evolutionist (like the late Stephen Hawking) sources to try to prove the unbiblical idea of supposed deep-time or billions of years. How beautiful you are! Going to an anti-christian source Who doesn’t even think that there is a Creator, let alone the God of the Bible! You have resorted to Desperate Measures to try to maintain an air of credibility for your late Gap-Myth false teacher guru, Finis Dake. He’s on the same level as Hawking, in that he also, perhaps unwittingly as well, worked for Satan to spread false doctrine among the low information members  of the Body of Christ.Stephen Hawking worked on black holes, and he wrote a book called ‘The Grand Design’, in which he sprinkled his atheistic philosophy based on Evolution and millions of years into some of it his physics work on the quantum mechanical workings of the inside of of black holes.”Atheistic faith masquerading as science:As usual with atheistic scientists, Hawking’s atheopathy long predated his science. His influential mother Isabel was a Communist, and in his teen years he admired the strongly anti-Christian mathematical philosopher Bertrand Russell.”https://creation.com/stephen-hawking-god
Ricky Grimsley The old “ your gonna burn in hell if you don’t agree with me” argument……it used to work.
Peter Fiske Ricky Grimsley, ((if you could refrain from calling us satanic because we believe in science))Funny you should say that to a science instructor who used to being evolutionist. That what you call science isn’t science, but a theistic philosophy masquerading as science. There is no scientific evidence that the Earth is 4.6 billion years old, no objective foolproof scientific method exists for making that claim! Radiometric dating techniques start with flawed assumptions and have problems attached to them.What’s worse is that your putting your face in the unbiblical, and non scientific idea of billions of supposed years of deep time instead of listening to the Word of God, when it clearly implies that the Earth is less than 10,000 calendar years old.
Peter Fiske Ricky Grimsley, IDK what you’re talking about. I can’t determine anyone’s salvation any more than you or any other human being can. The blood of Jesus Christ, and our surrender in terms of repentance of our sins to that sacrifice determines our salvation, nothing else. Having said that though, for self-professed believers to cling to materialistic ideas about the age of the Earth in order to try to save the reputation of a single false teacher, Finis Jennings Dake, pretty pathetic.
Ricky Grimsley When you use words like heresy and saying people are having itching ears and all that……I know what you mean.
Peter Fiske Ricky, you should read 2 Timothy 4:3-4, those folks that fanatically cling to date and the unbiblical Gap myth are those type of folks, willing to surround themselves with false teachers that will tell them anything they want to hear.
Troy Day Ricky Grimsley seems like Peter Fiske has a much larger fish to fry. He still cant point in the Bible where satan was fallen. The only option is flood of lucifer and the tohu-va-bohu destruction in Gen 1:2
Peter Fiske Ezekiel 28:13-15, Satan fell in the garden of Eden, after Creation Week…https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/…”Unformed and Void” (tohu vav bohu in Hebrew) is in the disjunctive form, and doesn’t describe a state of becoming from a previous state of fullness, but as part of a creative process from nothing (ex nihilo)…  https://creation.com/an-atypical-atheist-plus-just-how…
Link Hudson I don’t see a problem with a gap theory.  And if you aren’t talking about life on earth before the earth was without form and void, I don’t see why a gap is a big issue.  But the title is not true.  There is a historical non-gap explanation for where demons came from, along the lines of the book fo Enoch.  Tertullian said demons were fallen angels and their children.I am not sure what the lost souls issue.  If the gap theory is not true, that doesn’t mean no souls are lost.  Why would two creation stories point to the gap theory?  Are we talking about the two accounts of the creation of man?  What does that have to do with the gap theory?  Again, there is an alternative theory, that God made lots of men and women, but He made one named Adam who had the breath of life in him, that Eve, created from her, had the breath of life in her, which would explain why Adam called her the mother of all living.  But they did die.  Maybe Adam did not realize he was dead when he named Eve, or maybe he was thinking of the seed promise.
Peter Fiske But you should see a problem with The Gap Theory because it isn’t found in Genesis 1, nor in Jeremiah 4, or any other place in the 39 books of the Old Testament and  27 books of the New Testament that Genesis compromisers, like the late Finis Dake, try to insert one.The Gap myth was invented by compromising Scottish theologian Thomas Chalmers in the early 19th century in order to try to make the Bible fit with emerging evolutionary ideas of supposed millions of years.https://answersingenesis.org/…/exposing-a-fundamental…/There is a personal side note to this for me, since I heard the Gap Theory as a teenager and immediately recognized that it was an attempt to make Genesis and the Bible fit with evolutionary ideas of millions of supposed years. I left any possibility of winning me to Christ, and for 15 years I wandered in the wilderness of the world, making destructive decisions until I got saved and 30. During that whole time frame, I believed that I was nothing but a highly evolved animal and that there was no Heaven or Hell or any biblical truth whatsoever. The Gap theory is what led me into that destructive path way, and that’s why the Gap Theory must be opposed and destroyed from any vestige of biblical thinking.
Troy Day Well Link Hudson there is no other way to explain the fall of Lucifer in the whole Bible except with a gap in the story
Peter Fiske That’s not true Troy, we can explain the fall of Lucifer just fine if one just reads Ezekiel 28:13-15 in context. Not the out of context, false teachings of the Dake Bible, which pushes the unbiblical Gap Theory!
Gary Micheal Epping Peter Fiske  The thing is ez 28:17 says, ” I laid you before kings, That they might gaze at you.” There is no reference in Genesis of any kings gazing at the fallen angel. This is in reference to to a time before Gen 1:2.
Peter Fiske Gary Micheal Epping,  why the king of Tyre is cross referenced in Ezekiel 28 with Lucifer.”However, some of the descriptions in Ezekiel 28:11–19 go beyond any mere human king. In no sense could an earthly king claim to be “in Eden” or to be “the anointed cherub who covers” or to be “on the holy mountain of God.” Therefore, most Bible interpreters believe that Ezekiel 28:11–19 is a dual prophecy, comparing the pride of the king of Tyre to the pride of Satan. Some propose that the king of Tyre was actually possessed by Satan, making the link between the two even more powerful and applicable.Before his fall, Satan was indeed a beautiful creature (Ezekiel 28:12–13). He was perhaps the most beautiful and powerful of all the angels. The phrase “guardian cherub” possibly indicates that Satan was the angel who “guarded” God’s presence. Pride led to Satan’s fall. Rather than give God the glory for creating him so beautifully, Satan took pride in himself, thinking that he himself was responsible for his exalted status. Satan’s rebellion resulted in God casting Satan from His presence and will, eventually, result in God condemning Satan to the lake of fire for all eternity (Revelation 20:10).”https://www.gotquestions.org/King-of-Tyre.html
Link Hudson Why not?  You could say Lucifer fell the day Adam was created.  The Muslims may have got their theory from somewhere else after all.  I don’t know the day they think Satan rebelled, but in their story, he refused to worship (or bow down to?) Adam because he only wanted to do so toward God.  Their story paints Satan in a sympathetic light, which sip retty interesting considering.  But it does show that people can invent altnerate theories quite easily.  When you say that there is no other way to explain, people can easily come up with alternate theories, and in many cases there are old established theories to the contrary.
Peter Fiske Except that Adam was created perfect, and if one reads Genesis 1 and 2, God proclaims his creation is good. It wasn’t until sometime after Creation Week that Lucifer was so enamored by his own power and beauty, that wickedness was found in him. If one reads Ezekiel 28:13-15, and then the parallel chapter and Isaiah 14, you get a clear picture of how Lucifer fell, how we get demons, and the origin of evil.
Peter Fiske We don’t care what the Qu’ran teaches about Satan, since it’s a false religious text of a false and pagan religion. There is no specific time given for when Lucifer fell during the time Adam and Eve were in the Garden of Eden. Like so much of that genre of biblical literature, a lot is left out in terms of details, and therefore theologians and historians have had to do a lot of inferring based on in context exegesis of given scripture. Since Adam was 130 when Seth was born (Genesis 4:25) and that Seth was given as a replacement for Abel (Genesis 5:2-3). So we know that the first murder recorded in scripture happened before Adam turned 130. We also know that in accordance with Genesis 3, the fall of Adam and Eve happened after iniquity or evil was found in the heart of Lucifer Ezekiel 28:15. We also know that this happened after the fact of Lucifer being the anointed cherub in the Garden of Eden as recorded in Ezekiel 28:13. So what we see here is a timeline of events that happened between the 6th day of Creation in Creation Week (Genesis 1:1-31) until the fall of Adam and Eve, or tempted by Satan who either took the form of a serpent, or possessed a serpent to speak through it. Those events happened in Genesis 3. The inference that we take away from Genesis 425 is that all of these events occurred before Adam was 130! Therefore it’s logical to conclude that this sequence of events occurred within a hundred years of Creation Week. This has profound theological ramifications since Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 describe a time before Genesis 3 but after Genesis 1!
Troy Day Because as Ezek. says posted above he was already there in the garden when Adam was created. Read above first
Peter Fiske Of course Lucifer was in the Garden of Eden, and as verse 13 of chapter 28  tells us in the Book of Ezekiel, Lucifer was still a good angel before in verse 15 iniquity or wickedness was found in him. Either you have a fundamental misunderstanding of scripture here, or you’re deliberately bending the word of God, I don’t know which!
Link Hudson Troy Day That leaves 5 days beforehand to fall.  I am not saying that is a great explanation, but if your position is NO alternative explanation, it’s hardly defensible.Could there be a heavenly Eden like the heavenly temple in Hebrews?Btw, equating Lucifer with Satan is also tradition, very strongly established in Christianity.  Is the Biblical connection really clear?Btw, the first reference I have found to the Hebrew word for Satan is in the passage where the angel opposes Balaam.  And I mean first in terms of order of Protestant Bibles, not that the Balaam account necessarily was written before Job.
Peter Fiske ((equating Lucifer with Satan is also tradition))No it sound theology, as Ezekiel 28 describes that Lucifer was a good angel in the Garden of Eden until iniquity or wickedness was found in him. This was the basis for him tempting Adam and Eve, and causing send to be brought into the world through the disobedience of Adam. (Romans 5:12).
Link Hudson Peter Fiske how many angels fell?
Peter Fiske Link Hudson, Hebrews 12:22 tells us that 1/3 of the angels fell with Lucifer.https://www.gotquestions.org/one-third-angels.html
Link Hudson Peter Fiske Okay, so out of all the angels that fell, why would Lucifer have to be Satan?
Link Hudson Also, this passage is against the king of Tyre.  The passage says he is a man.  What do you think of taking the part about Eden, the pipes, etc. as spiritual, metaphorical language about a real human king, instead of taking the part about a human king as somehow allegorical for Satan?  Do you see the issue with taking a passage about a king and saying it is about Satan when it isn’t explicit and other passages do not do it?Taking this passage about Lucifer as being about Satan rests largely on Jewish and Christian tradition.  I am not saying the tradition is wrong, but how can you prove the assumption exegetically?
Peter Fiske Link Hudson, it is commonly understood by biblical Scholars and laypersons alike that Lucifer and Satan are the same being. Lucifer simply means ”lightbearer” [http://www.dictionary.com/browse/lucifer], while Satan means ” adversary”. https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/satan/Hebrew Scholar Dr Doug Hamp: “When Did Satan Fall? The Angelic Domain – Before Genesis 1:1 or After? Gap Theory Refuted”…https://youtu.be/f1p0so5jVw4
Link Hudson Peter Fiske commonly understood…but is it taught in scripture?
Peter Fiske Yes it is Link Hudson, why don’t you read the links that I posted and listen to the video as well.
Peter Fiske Link Hudson: (( of all the angels that fell, why would Lucifer have to be Satan))Well, if you read Ezekiel 28:13-15 you will see that Lucifer was indeed in the Garden of Eden, that he was the anointed cherub of the Garden of Eden, which means he was very likely an archangel like the archangel Michael. The idea that Lucifer isn’t Satan is a relatively recent phenomenon in compromise theology, and it’s easily refuted with an in-depth, and in context comparative Bible study.
Gary Micheal Epping According to many scientific dating methods, this planet earth is many millions of years old. However, from biblical chronology we can calculate that the span of time from the creation of Adam and Eve to the present is about 6,000 years.  As a result, most people who believe the Bible is divinely inspired are divided into two main groups based on their explanation for the apparent contradiction.               The “young earth creationist” group generally believes that all of God’s creation took place only 6,000 years ago. Many of them believe that God made things to appear to be older but that one must believe in a 6,000-year-old earth if he or she believes that the Bible is the infallible Word of God.The  “old earth creationist” group believes the Bible allows for a long time interval between verse 1 and verse 2 of Genesis 1, “The earth was without form, and void.”                                                                               Both groups have a large group of followers, and their positions are credible and different views on the creation story.  A recent gallup poll (http://news.gallup.com/…/belief-creationist-view-humans…) shows  young earth creationism ties for the leading view, along with the old earth view that an ancient process was guided by a divine hand.   In addition, the AOG (http://enrichmentjournal.ag.org/…/ejonline_201002…) finds that Young Earth Creationism has approximately 35 percent of faculty and students at Assemblies of God institutions of higher learning embrace this view.  Old Earth Creationist has approximately 31 percent of students and faculty at Assemblies of God colleges and universities Assemblies of God hold this view. Evolutionary Creationist has about 16 percent of faculty and students at Assemblies of God schools hold this view.  These results show that a OEC for pentecostals is a valid and highly held option about creation,   which follows the guidelines of the Scofield Bible, Dake Bible, and other guidelines.  Just because YEC proponents on this thread do not like OEC stance does not alter the fact it is a position that aligns with the belief that the heavens and earth are billions of years old.
Peter Fiske Gary,  I teach a course on geophysics, and we include the radiometric dating processes in that particular chapter. There are approximately 19 techniques, including radiocarbon dating, which are all similar in the way they work. The problem is that your assumptions must be altered in order to assume that the results always worked correctly. Radiometric dating is based on ratios between parent and daughter elements. Certain ratio rates are known, and are measured in what we call the half life of a substance. For example the half life of carbon 14 is 5,750 years. This means that it takes that long for a particular parent substance like carbon 14 to deteriorate into 50% of its daughter substance, in this case carbon 12. The problem with this line of thinking is simple, one is assuming and isolated system and where these decay ratios can perfectly manifest them self. Nature doesn’t work in a picture perfect way like that, since everything in nature is an open thermodynamic system, which literally means that energy and matter can flow through a control volume, in this case a mineralized specimen that is dated buy a particular radiometric dating technique. With the flow of water and or heat, parent elements can be washed out of a particular specimen that makes the entire ratio look older than it is. These skewed results are why radiometric dating isn’t a exact science, and is only taught to undergraduate science students as gospel truth in order to push the evolutionary idea of deep time or millions of years.http://www.cs.unc.edu/~plaisted/ce/dating2.htmlConsidering the rest of your post, it isn’t a stretch to say that you really have little to no idea what you’re talking about when it comes to radiometric dating, and even worse, your bending the scriptural age of the Earth, which is the literal teaching of God’s Word that the Earth is only thousands of years old, to the unproven and questionable ideas of secular fundamentalists who don’t even share any scriptural biblical beliefs or understanding.
Gary Micheal Epping All of the main tests, including radiometric dating, are well known to be accurate to +- 1%,
Link Hudson There are also old earth creationists who believe the creation days represent epochs.
Peter Fiske Gary Micheal Epping, (( all of the main tests including radiometric dating accurate to + – 1%))Okay, well the only real objective dating methodology that is used by evolutionist geo scientists is radiometric, of which there are approximately 20 differing techniques using theoretically at least, the same methodology. I think you’re confusing radiocarbon with other radiometric dating techniques like, Potassium-Argon (K-Ar). Nevertheless, you don’t backup your claim with any citation. Assertions don’t work in a semi scholarly debate, as we’re supposed to be having as you need to provide evidence for your claim. Secondly, your claim is the baseless especially when you consider a particular incident in the dating of the lava dome that developed after the last Mount St. Helens eruption. Using K-Ar dating methods on basaltic dacite rock collected from the St. Helens lava dome in 1996, geologists Dr. Andrew Snelling and Dr. Steve Austin, dated the dacite specimens for a radiometric age. Since the lava dome was less than 20 years old, the, the K-Ar radiometric ratio should have reflected that fact has almost no Argon (Ar) should’ve  been found.  However, lots of excessive argon (Ar) was found in the samples dated indicating a extremely skewed and erroneous age of supposedly thousands to millions of years when the date should have come back virtually nil considering that the dacite specimen was less than 20 years old.(Austin, S.A., “Excess Argon Within Mineral Concentrates from the New Dacite Lava Dome at Mount St Helens Volcano,” CEN Tech. J. 10(3):335–343, 1996)
Peter Fiske Link Hudson, yeah that’s right, and old Earth creationism, of which the Gap theory is part of, is the heretical compromise of Genesis with evolutionary ideas of millions of supposed years.
Gary Micheal Epping The primary basis of the Old Earth Creationist view comes from Genesis 1:1-2, which states, “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.” Genesis 1:1 refers to God’s initial perfect creation. Everything that God made was beautiful, there was no sin anywhere. Verse two, on the other hand, shows that a great catastrophe occurred that caused the earth to become in a chaotic state through the judgment of God.  According to the Gap Theory, the formless and void state, as recorded in Genesis 1:2, is in direct contrast to the perfect initial creation. Something happened between the first two verses of Genesis to cause the earth to become desolate and uninhabitable after having been made perfect.             “FORM” has a strong # H1414, to-hoo, which means to lie waste; a desolation(of surface) that is desert; a worthless thing; in vain; empty. (See attachment for details).        “VOID” has a strong # H922, bôhû, which means From an unused root (meaning to be empty); a {vacuity} that {is} (superficially) an undistinguishable ruin: – {emptiness} void. (see attachment for details)           These two words, without form and void, are only used in one other place, Jer 4:23, “I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.”        “DARKNESS,” has a strong # H2822, chôshek, which means From H2821; the dark; hence (literally) darkness; figuratively {misery} destruction, {death} ignorance {sorrow} wickedness: – dark ({-ness}) {night} obscurity.          Gen 1:2 indicates that judgement had been rendered on the earth before the 6 days of creation. Darkness as H2822, in the Bible is often associated with death and sin. So, where did the sin come from if not from Adam.  Before the destruction in this verse, God had made the earth in perfection as described in verse 1. The garden of Eden was present in the first creation and was under the stewardship of Lucifer.  It was recreated again in the six days with Adam replacing Lucifer as steward.          Lucifer as an angel of God, however commited the 1st sin in God’s universe, Ez 28:12-15, “On the day that you were created they were prepared. You were the anointed cherub who covers, and I placed you there. You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked in the midst of the stones of fire. You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created until unrighteousness was found in you. By the abundance of your trade you were internally filled with violence, and you SINNED; Therefore I have cast you as profane from the mountain of God. And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; You corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor. I cast you to the ground; I put you before kings, that they may see you. By the multitude of your iniquities, in the unrighteousness of your trade you profaned your sanctuaries.”  One verse here clearly shows that Lucifer SINNED, and was casted down to the ground. The Bible tells us, Death is the result of sin. “For the wages of sin is death,” Romans 6:23. God placed judgment not only on Lucifer, but also on the earth which resulted in the destruction of the earth that is shown in Gen 1:2.             Old Earth Creationist view is therefore fully substantiated. It conforms to the original heavens and earth being created in verse 1, with the earth being laid waste in verse 2, only to be created again starting in verse 3.  Even though YEC proponents don’t like this stance, and try to damn it as heresy, it is a position that is substantiated in the Bible.  It is much more realistic that saying that God created the earth with fossils, skeletons, oil, bones in the earth, with Him changing the speed of light to make a young earth look old.  God is not a deceiver, and had no reason to try and make a young earth look old. Old Earth Creationism tells a better story about Creation.
Thomas Henry Jr. You really read into Genesis 1:2
Gary Micheal Epping Thomas Henry Jr.  Basically I did not refer to Scofield or Dake’s bible but used the Strong concordance to look up the meaning of the words in that verse, which indicate judgment for sin in the earlier era.
Thomas Henry Jr. Gary Micheal Epping  those verse don’t imply what you stated. A child taking playdoe out of a container has clay that is without form and void.  There were nothing that cause the world to become void.  The error is thinking God created the world fully form and that’s not what Genesis 1:1 implies
Gary Micheal Epping Strong words for form, void, and darkness mean destruction, wickedness, ruin, and death. Darkness in the Bible is associated with sin. Not my words but from strongs.
Peter Fiske Gary Micheal Epping, simply quoting without any citations isn’t much of a case Gary. First of all, taking scripture in this case Genesis 1, out of context in order to try to make it fit with evolutionary thinking of millions of supposed years, is in of itself a sin. You don’t believe me? Read Deuteronomy 4:2 on how God feels about altering the true context of his holy Word!
Peter Fiske Thomas Henry Jr., I know, right?! The ends that some who believe in erroneous and false doctrine will go to in order to just try to be right!
Gary Micheal Epping I never mentioned any doctrine, but used Strong’s to define the meaning of those words like a student of the bible should. If you don’t Like it look the words up yourself.
Peter Fiske Gary Micheal Epping, your entire understanding and view of scripture is wrong, as your foundation, which is in the Book of Genesis, is wrong. The Bible teaches in Genesis, and in Luke and Matthew, that the Earth is less than 10,000 years old. The age of the Earth is important because this is what the true Biblical context teaches, and that if one altars the implied doctrine open Earth that is less than 10,000 years old, then one opens up the possibility of reinterpreting scripture in the light of modern evolutionary thinking which needs millions of years in order to survive. It isn’t necessary to compromise Genesis to appease evolutionists!
Gary Micheal Epping Peter Fiske the citations are from strongs and the bible.  Can’t you read. Mule headed as ever.
Peter Fiske Gary Micheal Epping, you take scripture and citations out of context in order to maintain a false doctrine of millions of supposed years and an equally false and mythical Gap.
Gary Micheal Epping Can you not look the words up in strong s for gen 1:2 like a good theologian should. The meanings indicate judgment from God.
Thomas Henry Jr. Gary Micheal Epping  there were no judgement in Genesis 1:2
Gary Micheal Epping Thomas henry Jr then what do you make of the meanings from Strong’s for passage?  Maybe you should complain to strong s rather than me, since that is where the information came from.
Thomas Henry Jr. Gary Micheal Epping  you are reading into Strong’s but here is the screenshots
Thomas Henry Jr.
Thomas Henry Jr.
Thomas Henry Jr. Strong’s doesn’t mention sin as the source of the chaos
Thomas Henry Jr. Void
Thomas Henry Jr. Darkness
Thomas Henry Jr. Looks like you are reading into the text
Thomas Henry Jr. Was H1961 hayah. Has several meaning and In Genesis 1:2 it does not have the meaning of becoming void because of sin
Thomas Henry Jr.
Thomas Henry Jr.
Thomas Henry Jr. Again you are reading your eisegesis into the text
Gary Micheal Epping Thomas henry Jr  darkness is associated with sin throughout the bible.
Thomas Henry Jr. Gary Micheal Epping  actually no and I didn’t say it was. I’m black and conservative so am I associated with sin?  Since darkness is always associated with sin according to your baseless opinion?
Thomas Henry Jr. Darkness is simply the absence of light
Gary Micheal Epping I said darkness or the absence of light as used in the Bible.
Thomas Henry Jr. All because light is missing does not there is sin. One can lack illumination and be in darkness and yet not be in Sin
Thomas Henry Jr. We look through a glass darkly I believe Paul says in Corinthian yet we aren’t in sin because of that
Gary Micheal Epping Thomas henry Jr  I am not reading into the meanings. The information I posted earlier are directly from the complete meanings from strings. I am on a cell and don’t have access to the screen shots. Will post later.
Thomas Henry Jr. Gary Micheal Epping  just posted from Strong’s from the app on my iPhone no need for further posting. I read very well thanks.
Thomas Henry Jr. 1 Cor 13:12  For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am knownDark here doesn’t mean sin
Thomas Henry Jr. Any honest student of the Word knows that in all the many times darkness is mentioned in scripture it is not synonymous with sin.
Thomas Henry Jr. The word darkness is found 142 times in the KJV. Majority of those times it isn’t a reference to sin. Leave the racist Dakes Bible alone please
Gary Micheal Epping It is often referred is as sin. I will post later from my computer. I have purposely not referred to dake or Scofield to avoid comments like yours.
Thomas Henry Jr. Gary Micheal Epping  again darkness is not synonymous with sin in all of its 142 mentions
Gary Micheal Epping Darkness as used in gen 1:2 is h2822 and is only used 70 times, often referring to sin.
Thomas Henry Jr. Gary Micheal Epping   It does not refer mostly to SIN
Thomas Henry Jr. Gary Micheal Epping  i can post all 77 verses to show that you are in error
Peter Fiske Yes it is Gary, and from the beginning, and Genesis 3 we see how Adam the first man, brought sending to the World by succumbing to Satan’s temptation. Remember in Ezekiel 28:13-15, while he was in the Garden of Eden as the anointed cherub, iniquity and evil were found inside Lucifer, and he became Satan after that. So sin entered creation through the initial act of disobedience by Adam and Eve as told in Genesis 3, as a result as Romans 5:12 tells us, our world is soaked with sin. Nowhere in any of the scriptures does it say there was a pre-Adamite world where Lucifer and the Fallen Angels who became demons fell.
Gary Micheal Epping Thomas Henry Jr. I found the problem. In my original post I accidently posted the strong definition for darkness twice, with the first instance placing it where the definition for FORM should be. I have corrected it above, and also placed an attachment for the three words, form, void, and darkness. The statement stands that Gen 1:2 shows judgment for the original sin of Lucifer in the previous era.
Thomas Henry Jr. That is eisegesis
Gary Micheal Epping In  regard to darkness (or the absent of light) , the following verses relate it to SIN.                                                        Romans 1:21 Verse ConceptsFor even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.Matthew 6:23Verse Concepts”But if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light that is in you is darkness, how great is the darkness!Luke 22:53Verse Concepts”While I was with you daily in the temple, you did not lay hands on Me; but this hour and the power of darkness are yours.”John 3:19-20″This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. “For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.Romans 13:12Verse ConceptsThe night is almost gone, and the day is near Therefore let us lay aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light.2 Corinthians 6:14Verse ConceptsDo not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness?Ephesians 5:11Verse ConceptsDo not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them;1 John 1:5-6This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth;2 Corinthians 4:4Verse Conceptsin whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.Ephesians 4:18Verse Conceptsbeing darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart;Psalm 82:5Verse ConceptsThey do not know nor do they understand; They walk about in darkness; All the foundations of the earth are shaken.John 12:35Verse ConceptsSo Jesus said to them, “For a little while longer the Light is among you Walk while you have the Light, so that darkness will not overtake you; he who walks in the darkness does not know where he goes.1 John 2:9Verse ConceptsThe one who says he is in the Light and yet hates his brother is in the darkness until now.1 John 2:11Verse ConceptsBut the one who hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going because the darkness has blinded his eyes.Job 3:3-6″Let the day perish on which I was to be born, And the night which said, ‘A boy is conceived.’ “May that day be darkness; Let not God above care for it, Nor light shine on it. “Let darkness and black gloom claim it; Let a cloud settle on it; Let the blackness of the day terrify it. read more.2 Samuel 22:29Verse Concepts”For You are my lamp, O LORD; And the LORD illumines my darkness.
Thomas Henry Jr. Gary Micheal Epping  you do understand that it doesn’t mean sin in all places
Troy Day SIN is SIN
Gary Micheal Epping Troy Day Yes, and ‘the wages of sin is death,’ as well as judgment which was already rendered for Lucifer and his angel when Satan was in Eden.
Peter Fiske Gary, God judged Lucifer and the angels that he tempted in Isaiah 14, and as Ezekiel 28 tells us, the initial discovery of wickedness and send it Lucifer was made in the one and only Garden of Eden that was created during Creation Week (Genesis 1:1-31). This brings to mind the question I’ve been trying to get you to answer now for more than a day. Where in scripture does it even imply let alone mention there was another Garden of Eden and a supposed and equally unbiblical pre-Adamite world?
John Duncan Amen the GAP theory is the most plausible explanation.
Peter Fiske No it’s not John Duncan, there’s no scriptural basis for a supposed *gap* in Genesis 1 at all.
Troy Day So Gary Micheal Epping  Peter Fiske Ricky Grimsley how would this work in such a false theory? Thomas Henry Jr.Satan created on day 5 (before day 6) and boom in one short instance he sins, falls, becomes God’s enemy and by day 6 is ready to tempt Adam – yeah right BTW forget satan – when were all other ANGELS created?
Thomas Henry Jr. There is no reason for Satan to sin until he sees man interact with God. 100 years after eden Satan falls and deceives Eve and mankind falls.
Troy Day But the BIBLE specifically says angels were crated before Day 1 of the new creation “Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation … and all the angels shouted for joy?” (Job 38:4,7).
Thomas Henry Jr. Troy Day  that doesn’t say day one. You read into that text really good there
Troy Day as I said above –  BIBLE specifically says angels were crated before Day 1
Thomas Henry Jr. Troy Day  i don’t see day one in that text
Thomas Henry Jr. 4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?No where does it say day one. It took God 6 days to lay the foundations and prepare it for mankind by the close of the 6 day.
Thomas Henry Jr. Saying Day One — you are reading into the text
Thomas Henry Jr. Eisegesis at its best!!!!
Thomas Henry Jr. Hebrews 1:14 saysEnglish Standard VersionAre they not all ministering spirits sent out to serve for the sake of those who are to inherit salvationSo if Angels were created for us then there is no need for them before creation. Do with Lucifer walking in Eden on the 6 day makes sense. Angels were created just before the creation of Adam (mankind).
Thomas Henry Jr. Hebrews 1:13 tells us the THEY are angels.
Troy Day as I said above – BIBLE specifically says angels were crated before Day 1 right here “Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation … and all the angels shouted for joy?” (Job 38:4,7).
Peter Fiske Troy Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 tells us about Satan and the angels he tempted , how they fell. Ezekiel 28:13 reminds us that Lucifer was in the Garden of Eden as the anointed cherub, until in verse 15 when wickedness was found in him. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/…
Thomas Henry Jr. Troy Day  that doesn’t say that. Why are you read into the text.
Thomas Henry Jr. Troy Day  i posted the entire text and that text doesn’t say that.
Gary Micheal Epping Yes. In such a short period of time, Lucifer would not have got to use “thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.” (EX 28:13-14). Why give him musical talent so he could worship God, if he were cast out before he could use them? Lucifer was also the “anointed cherub that covereth” in that same passage, which is was one the highest ranking angels. They were used for protection , and another one guarded the Garden of Eden after Adam and Eve were expelled (Gen 3:24). Lucifer was used to guard the throne of God in an earlier time, and later  to protect and oversee Eden before the earth was laid waste.  In the short period that Peter describes, Lucifer would not have gotten to use these talent either.
Peter Fiske Gary Micheal Epping, since you love to quote the heavy KJV English prose, do you think that God speaks KJV English in heaven? Is that the holy language?
Peter Fiske Gary Micheal Epping, I see you made another brief reference to a supposed *Eden before Eden*. Please tell us where this mythical Eden before Eden is found in Scripture, let alone the physical evidence of its remains!
Gary Micheal Epping Peter Fiske  I guess you prefer the Queen James Bible instead?
Peter Fiske Gary, are you really trying to be funny or insulting or both? You know that the QJB is a *gay*-friendly, revised version of the Bible, don’t you?https://creation.com/wicked-bibleSomeone who depends upon the antiquated English King James Version for their Bible knowledge is at best, at a huge disadvantage when it comes to properly interpreting the word of God. Whether you know it or not there are modern translations that are every bit as good as the KJV available! I personally prefer the NIV, but the NKJV and the ESV are two good translations as well. What is astonishing to me is that false teachers seem to have a preference for the KJV, like Dake, like Flat-Earth false prophets Rob Skiba, and cultic KJV-Onlyists.
Gary Micheal Epping Peter Fiske I thought you liked other translations? How about this one?
Peter Fiske Gary Micheal Epping, other translations that are valid and credible, not crackpot heretical mistranslations (like the New World Translation [Jehovah’s Witnesses], or the homosexual-friendly QJB)that teach false doctrine disguised as scripture.One might ask what your sexual orientation is since you brought this topic up?!
Gary Micheal Epping Is that the NIVI edition you like?
Peter Fiske Gary Micheal Epping, false teacher Finis Dake used the KJV because being a false prophet, he would have been acceptable to the Bible version that, Lucifer better known as Satan,  seems to prefer since it’s so easy to misquote and misrepresent due to the antiquated and out-of-date English prose. https://bible.org/…/why-i-do-not-think-king-james-bible…Flat-earthism false teachers like Rob Skiba also prefer the KJV due to its easily misunderstood English that allows them to mistranslate and take out of context verses that seem to indicate a flat stationary Earth, according to hyper-literal out of context interpretations of scripture.http://robschannel.com/spherical-or-circular-flat-earthApparently false doctrines can arise easily from the use of out of context  and outdated words and phrases, which 400 year old English unfortunately is.
Thomas Henry Jr. If you insist Angels were created before creation itself, then according to Pastor David Guzik and other commentators he didn’t fall until AFTER CREATION WAS FINISHED.I still maintain Angels were needed until day 6. And the fall happened almost 100 years after creation
Troy Day Now how is Pastor David Guzil and why should we listen to him? It was not so according to pastor Dake and many other pastors
Thomas Henry Jr. Why should I listen to you my friend? He is a Pastor who wrote commentary on scripture.
Troy Day You should not You should search and study Scriptures for your self. I am simply pointing to the resource We should also NOT listen to Pastor David Guzik because he states NOT to have any formal Bible College or seminary training https://enduringword.com/about/david-guzik/
Thomas Henry Jr. Troy Day  1. Kenneth Hagan had students sign up for an uncredited program.2. Lack of a formal Bible college or seminary degree is not a reason to not listen to anyone. The first scholar in any field was never trained in that field of study formally 3. You make to many assumptions here. I study for myself but there is still according to scripture wisdom among many counselors.4. The resource here isn’t flawed.  Even God uses a rooster and a donkey. I think he can use a preacher without a formal education.5. Judging by the eisegesis I seen in here lately. There is a major need for a study of the biblical Languages and how to properly interpret scripture— biblical hermeneutics.6. Lastly Pastor Guzik is a student of the Calvary Chapel movement founded by Chuck Smith which has produce some very fine expository preachers.
Gary Micheal Epping Peter Fiske Peter you are worse than a knat in the summer time. No one commented about the KJV above. Out of the blue, you saw I used that version in a single post and it gave you a chance to start polluting the tread with your anti-KJV propaganda. Evidently, you have not noticed that I use a variety of Bible versions when I post.  Troy has already warned you to stop spamming people. Why don’t you listen and stop.
Gary Micheal Epping Why not listen to someone like Billy Graham who said, “Yes, the Bible tells us that the angels were witnesses to the creation of the world, which indicates they were created long before that great event. God asked Job, “Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation … and all the angels shouted for joy?” (Job 38:4,7). https://billygraham.org/…/when-were-the-angels-created-3/
Gary Micheal Epping Peter Fiske In regard to your ‘Eden before Eden’ remark, the Garden in Genesis would be in the same place as before the chaos of Gen 1:2, since God’s perfection would be present in both.  Also, when the ‘new heaven and a new earth’ (Rev 21:1) are created again after the Tribulation, there will also be a Garden of Eden.  Why? Because it is “the garden of the Lord” (Gen 13:10).    In any creation of God, there is going to be a garden of the Lord.   As to location, most Bible commentaries state that the site of the Garden of Eden was in the Middle East, situated somewhere near where the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers are today (Genesis 2:8–14).  However, the worldwide, catastrophic Flood of Noah’s day would have left sediment deposits covering the earth.  So no one can know for certain today where the Garden of Eden was originally located. The same would be true of Eden before Gen 1:2.  There are simply no remains to be found for Eden.  Even if the location could be found, no one could enter as an angel stands guard to keep people out.
Peter Fiske Gary Micheal Epping, if the entire Earth was covered by water from Lucifer’s flood, it would have completely rearranged any of that supposed pre-Lucifer’s flood world geography, including your ridiculous and mythical *Eden before Eden.* There is no scriptural mention of an *Eden before Eden*, you’re just making crap up out of thin air in a fanatical yet feeble attempt to hang-on to the Gap Myth.
Peter Fiske Gary Micheal Epping, ((Why not listen to someone Like Billy Graham))Because ultimately it isn’t what Billy Graham thinks or says that determines biblical truth, but what God himself says in Genesis 1 – 11 about how and when he created, which nowhere includes a make-believe gap of millions of years designed to make the Bible fit with modern evolutionary ideas of deep-time.”Let God be true and every man a liar.”  – Romans 3:4
Gary Micheal Epping Peter Fiske Nobody knows anything but you. Maybe the ‘make believe’ story is of your making.  Yappers say the the flood covered evidence of where the Eden in Genesis actually is located.  If that is true, then the Eden before Gen 1:2 could not be located either.
Gary Micheal Epping Peter Fiske By the way, when was water created in Genesis?
Peter Fiske Thomas Henry Jr. , Kenneth Hagin, Jimmy Swaggart, and Benny Hinn are just three of the theologically ignorant proteges of Finis Jennings Dake and his heretical Dake Bible. It shouldn’t  be a surprise  when we find out that they vigorously taught false doctrine of the Gap myth right from the Dake Bible.
Peter Fiske Gary Micheal Epping, can’t you read Genesis 1:1 – 5 for yourself? Day One included the creation of water. What’s so hard about that to understand?
Gary Micheal Epping Peter Fiske Where does it say, “And God said let” there be water? The “And God said Let” statement for day 1  begins in Verse 3.
Peter Fiske Gary Micheal Epping, Genesis 1:1 tells us the general thesis statement in the form of a  subject-verb clause, which is that God created the heavens and the Earth. Genesis 1:2 is the adjoining circumstatial clause, or the waw disjunctive, which tells us what was created on the first day of Creation Week.https://creation.com/from-the-beginning-of-the-creation
Peter Fiske Gary Micheal Epping, ((Nobody knows anything but you))Another ad hominem, ridiculing my knowledge base in an attempt to discredit my position. I never said I knew all that all, but I know something, and I always tend to back that something up with objective evidence in order to make a sound, logical case. That’s more than Dake does with his wild, irrational and counterintuitive commentaries, and more than you do just rubber stamping them.((The make believe story is if you’re making))Now you’re insulting fact, and of course God’s word which contains factual information about how and when he created. I qualify what I say with evidence from other scripture or science, you on the other hand do neither. If anyone is guilty of making things up out of thin air it’s got to be you and Dake.
Peter Fiske Troy Day ((the BIBLE specifically says angels were created before Day 1))No the BIBLE doesn’t make that claim! Job 38 tells us that the Angels were present during creation week as God created the Earth! You’re twisting scripture in order to prove a toxic and deceptive false doctrine, namely the Gap Theory. Compromising Genesis is a serious thing, because Deuteronomy 4:2-3 and Revelation 22:18-19 specifically forbid adding to God’s word, which your misguided reinterpretation of  in-context solid exegesis is doing!
Peter Fiske Gary Micheal Epping, water was created on Day 1, as the foundational and primordial substance from which all matter in the universe, including the Earth was made.
Gary Micheal Epping Pete Fiske Yeah, right? A statement that says when, In the beginning, subject-verb, God created, what?, the heavens and the earth. The first verse is a done deal. God is a God of perfection and peace, and did not create what is indicated in Gen 1:2. It was the result of actions that took place on the already created earth from verse 1.
Gary Micheal Epping Pete Fiske No discrediting your knowledge base, which is nothing more than cut and paste from your young earth creation site.  Same stuff posted over and over again, to the point that it sounds like a broken record, and makes one what to puke. No one can carry out a decent discussion on any thread related to creation because you will spam them with a barrage of posts.
Peter Fiske Gary Micheal Epping, all creative events between Genesis 1:1 and 1:5 occurred on day one of Creation Week.Verse 5 (ESV)…” called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day.” http://biblehub.com/genesis/1-5.htmThe clear context of scripture is that everything between verses 1 & 5 of Genesis 1 were created on the first calendar of Creation Week (Genesis 1:1-31) which was 24 hours long! No amount of Gappist sophistry on your part will change that fact.((your knowledge base which is nothing more than cut and paste from young earth creation site))1. My knowledge base exist independently of any website as it is the accumulated knowledge and wisdom of 25 + years of objective study.2. Copying and pasting scholarly articles and/or their links is an accepted part of scholarly or layperson level dialogue. It’s not my fault if you can’t match this level of discourse. My suggestion to you at this point is to get your nose out of the heretical commentaries  in the Dake Bible, and do some objective research from Biblical Christian sources that aren’t polluted with false doctrine, of which the mythical Gap theory is perhaps the most insidious.
Peter Fiske Gary Micheal Epping, as I’ve pointed out and as you refuse to accept simply because you’ve been brainwashed and blinded by Dake’s false doctrines, “unformed and unfilled” (tohu vav bohu in Hebrew) in Genesis 1:2 is a subordinate clause to Genesis 1:1 that describes what was created and the state of the created mass, in this case the Earth. The fact that you don’t even examine and discuss the finer points of the grammatical structure of Genesis 1:1 and 2 indicates that your mind is not only made up, but that it has been seared with an emotional glue forged by your blind allegiance to the late false prophet/teacher, Finis Dake.
Gary Micheal Epping Peter Fiske Get it through your thick skull, I am not talking  about Dake; haven’t referred to him once.   You are the only one on here that is constantly talking against Dake with your constant anti spamming.  Gen 1:1 is pretty straight forward, and needs none of your finer point. Just read it: “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.” Verse 2 DOES NOT describe what God created or caused, but is a result or effect of chaos. God only creates what is perfection.  By your logic, when He created Adam, it would have been needed to first create a sinful chaotic mess before God made Adam in perfection.
Peter Fiske Gary Micheal Epping, ((Get it through your thick skull))Your logical fallacy is:https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem(( I’m not talking about Dake))The source of your blind allegiance to this false doctrine of the Gap myth is directly proportional to your allegiance to Dake.((Gen 1:1 is pretty straightforward and needs none of your finer point))Yeah and it doesn’t need your extra-biblical eisegesis attached to it either, trying to find a supposed Gap when there is none! The beginning of creation was day 1 of Creation Week, no gap of millions of years is either directly mentioned or indirectly inferred. The fact that you don’t concede to reality of what scripture actually says shows me that you’re committed to this false doctrine as if it were gospel truth. That is delusional zealotry at its most blatant.((Verse 2 DOES NOT describe what God created or caused))Oh YES IT IS! All the events of verse 2 – 5 are the creative events of Day One of Creation Week. The Hebrew ‘tohu vav bohu’ describes the initial state of the Earth on day one, not how Earth was on day one from some bygone, purely fictional primordial pre -Adamic era supposedly millions of years in the past.https://answersingenesis.org/…/can-evolutions-long…/ That’s outright heresy that you are reading into that verse! You ought to be ashamed of yourself repent for dismantling God’s word in such a shameful way just to try to make Genesis look more palatable to evolutionists.((God creates what is perfection))
Gary Micheal Epping Peter Fiske You are the one that predominantly does the name calling for most everyone on here.  So, watch your own video.
Peter Fiske Gary Micheal Epping , sorry but your the one who started name-calling, I was trying to be civil to you yet you were becoming flagrantly insulting towards me. What goes around comes around!
Troy Day The BIBLE specifically says angels were crated before Day 1 right here “Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation … and all the angels shouted for joy?” (Job 38:4,7).How could have they been there and shouting IF not already created
Link Hudson It says He created the heavens and the earth, so maybe He created the heavens first, along with it’s contents.
Troy Day Exactly what GAP theory takes under consideration. Still makes it plausible that there was a fall between v1-2 to cause the tohu-va-bohu destruction of earth
Scotty Searan Troy Day I am with you on the Gap theory.Can i do a little Speculating?I believe there was a world witb inhabitants and possibly angels or could be humansHebrew1:2 and Hebrews 11:3 makes mention that God created (framed) the worlds.I believe whatever inhabited this earth was destroyed because of a battle where possibility Lucifer in his rebellion destroyed or made havoc of the previous inhabitants Could it possibly be that God outright destroyed the inhabitants of the previous world with a flood because of sin and no one have knowledge of them by a written history, Only God allowing us to maybe catch a glimpse because of the Fossils
Peter Fiske Scotty Searan, you’re casting your lot in with false teachers when you support the Gap myth. There is no biblical mention of a gap of millions or billions of supposed years in Genesis 1. All the speculation in the world is just that, we must go by the sound exegesis, in context interpretation of Genesis 1 in order to get an accurate picture of Earth history during its first week. God supernaturally created the Earth in 6 – 24 hour days, and he didn’t need any retarded Gap to fit millions of years and in order to try to make Genesis more palatable to evolutionary thinking, which requires millions to billions of years of supposed  deep time in order for it to be plausible.
Peter Fiske Scotty Searan (( could it possibly be that God destroyed the inhabitants of the previous world with a flood because of sin))2 Peter 3 reminds us that God destroyed the pre-flood, that is the antediluvian world that existed between Creation Week of Genesis 1 and the coming of the flood of Noah in Genesis 6 some 1,656 years later. There is no other worldwide flood in world history that explains anything scientifically or biblically.((God allowing us a glimpse because of the Fossils))Now that’s not true, most of the fossils or laid down by Noah’s flood, the only worldwide flood in the history of our planet.https://answersingenesis.org/fossils/If there was a supposed Lucifer’s flood before Creation Week, that supposedly laid down all of the fossils, then the so-called second worldwide flood of Genesis 6, where Noah was commanded by God to build an ark and take two of each kind of living creature upon it, would have literally destroyed all of the fossils in the fossil record as another gigantic catastrophic movement of water over the surface of the Earth for the second time would have pulverized the layers and fossils supposedly left in the first. The fact that we have a fossil record is evidence of only one huge catastrophic Flood event, not too!
Peter Fiske Troy Day, you’re interpreting ‘tohu waw bohu’ backwards. The phrase is a disjunctive that describes the state of the primordial Earth initially revealed in the first part of Genesis 1:1 and 2.
Gary Micheal Epping Peter Fiske You are the one interpreting backwards.  The first statement is that God created the heavens and the earth in verse 1. Then, the 2nd verse shows there is chaos which God did not create, because He is a creator of  perfection and peace. In regard to your call for ‘sound exegesis,’ it needs to be determined why there is chaos in verse 2 before any theory on creation can be developed.
Gary Micheal Epping Peter Fiske  You reference 2 Pe 3:5-6, “For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water,  by which the world that then existed perished.”  The word used her is OLD. If Peter was referring to the creation in days 1-6 of Genesis, he would have used the term NEW or recently created. This is not the case, as he clearly says the world of OLD perished.
Peter Fiske Gary Micheal Epping, no that’s not right, you’re clinging to and perpetuating false doctrine by continuing to defend a fake Satanic knock off of the Genesis creation narrative. Unformed and unfilled , “Tohu vav bohu” in Genesis 1:2 in the Hebrew, is a literary disjunctive, a subjective-verb clause to God creating the heavens and the Earth in Genesis 1:1https://creation.com/from-the-beginning-of-the-creationApparently you don’t know Hebrew grammatical structure very well, as this is the accepted and understood form of Genesis 1:1-5, describing the creative events in sequence on Day 1 of Creation Week.You’re not seeking to use the word of God as your foundation (Psalm 11:3), but like your pseudo-theological icon Dake, you’re seeking the approval of modern evolutionary thinking on the age of the Earth in order to make your scriptural understanding fit with reality, not trying to make reality fit with scripture. Reality fits with scripture, as there’s no independent and objective and foolproof scientific method to determine a supposed 4.6 billion year old age of the Earth. And even if Earth was that age, the need for a God evaporates with long ages of supposed naturalistic processes. Dake, Scofield, and modern day Gappist false teachers are too ignorant to see this point. And their (and your) ignorance is causing division and is harming  the cause of Christ!
Peter Fiske Gary Micheal Epping, the word *old* in 2 Peter 3:5 is better defined in the NIV…”But they deliberately forget that LONG AGO by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water”.Either way, whether you use the archaic KJV phrase “of old”, or more modern and in-style English reference of “long ago”, neither reference is automatically by default referring to a supposed pre-Adamite world of millions of years ago. You do see that don’t you?The Apostle Peter gave us this epistle in the 1st century AD, while the worldwide  Flood of Noah was approximately 3,000 to 3,500 years earlier. You can’t be this ignorant to see that from Peter’s perspective in the first century, 3,000 – 3,500 years previous would be considered “of old” or “long ago!
Gary Micheal Epping Peter Fiske Now the young earth creationist wants argue that that a young earth is now old? Can’t have it both ways.
Peter Fiske Gary Micheal Epping, you have no powers of perception do you? Didn’t you read my response? I said that the term “long ago” or “of old” doesn’t automatically by default imply millions of years! What part of that don’t you understand?
Gary Micheal Epping Peter Fiske It says, “by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, by which the world that then existed perished.” It says the old world perished right?  Then in verse 7, “But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment..” This is the earth that was created again, which will also be destroyed and re-created in the end times.
Peter Fiske Correcting Gary Micheal Epping on his unbiblical reinterpretation of 2 Peter 3:5-6 (NIV)…”But they deliberately forget that LONG AGO by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed.”Where are you reading a supposed pre-Adamite world and or and equally mythical *Lucifer’s flood* in that passage?”The scope (of the Genesis Flood) was global, and so severe that the earth was, in effect, reversed to its state on Day 2, before God created dry land—the whole earth was covered with water. This is strongly stated by 2 Peter 3:6, which says that the kosmos was destroyed in the Flood, pointing to its global extent:”https://creation.com/nt-global-flood”2 Peter 3:5–6. Peter is criticizing uniformitarianism—the concept that the rate of geological change today has always been the same: ‘All things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.'”In opposing this view, Peter reminds his readers that scoffers deliberately ignore two events—the Creation and the Flood—which were unique in earth history.”Peter refers to this same Flood of Noah’s day in 1 Peter 3:20 and 2 Peter 2:4–5. In fact, there is no reference to a Luciferian Flood anywhere in Scripture.”https://answersingenesis.org/…/gap-theory/closing-the-gap/ The term “long-ago”/ “of old” [KJV], doesn’t automatically imply a supposed pre-Adamite world! Nowhere outside of Satan’s twisted mind, or his false prophets and pawns, like Finis Dake, does such unbiblical eisegesis exist!
Link Hudson One can believe there was or may have been a gap between Genesis 1:1 and the rest of the creation without believing the world was populated before God said, “Let there be light”.
Troy Day Gary John Ricky One thing non-gappers (we will just call them plainly yappers) cannot explain is the tohu-va-bohu earth without form and void What caused that? Certainly NOT God’s beautiful act of creation
Thomas Henry Jr. That is easily explained and has been
Troy Day YET With all the attempts here it still has not been explaining  for over a week now
Thomas Henry Jr. Actually it was. The problem is we are quoting scripture while you keep forcing a day one on Job that’s not even there my friend
Link Hudson Do you have another creation God made to compare it to to demonstrate that God doesn’t create things in stages, or start out with someone that is without form and void?
Link Hudson Why would tge earthbeing without form and void at creation have to be seen as a problem to be answered?
Ricky Grimsley Link Hudson because Isaiah says that created the world “not to be void”
Thomas Henry Jr. Without form and void does not equal destruction because of sin. That was God starting with a lump of clay and forming it into the Earth 🌏 so that it could be Eden/paradise for Adam and Eve.
Link Hudson Ricky Grimsley and if He hada plan tofill it?
Ricky Grimsley Of course he had plans to fill it. But it was already filled with other things. but man. Man he had to create from dirt but a other things were said to “come forth”. It also depends on if make a distinction between “made” or “ create.
Peter Fiske Absolutely Thomas! There never was a pre-Adamic world  destroyed by a mythical Lucifer’s flood.https://creation.com/pre-adamic-man-were-there-human…
Peter Fiske Of course Ricky Grimsley, He didn’t create the world to be void, or un-populated. But all that Isaiah affirms is that God created a planet teeming with life. Where do you read in a supposed pre-Adamic earth??
Ricky Grimsley Then why is it void in genesis 1:2?
Troy Day Would God crate something void and imperfect?
Link Hudson Troy Day He made man.
Peter Fiske Troy Day, *yappers*, your logical fallacy is: https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominemTohu waw bohu (unformed and unfilled) is a disjunctive, in that it is a circumstantial clause that follows the subject and verb clause or thesis of Genesis 1 in verse 1. It seems that you don’t  know what you’re talking about.((What caused that?))Why God did of course, but not in the way that you think. He created the Earth out of a unorganized mess of water, that would be liquid hydrogen and oxygen. In fact he created all the universe out of that primordial mass. That was the first creative act of Day 1 of Creation as Week.
Peter Fiske Ricky Grimsley, the “void” in Genesis 1:2, the Hebrew word “bohu”, means the Earth was empty, unfilled not solid yet and purely made of liquid water. This happened on Day One of Creation Week. You don’t have to suck up to evolutionists who don’t believe in the Bible anyway by trying to make Genesis fit with evolutionary thinking. Genesis stands on its own without any aid from a supposed gap of millions of years to try to make scripture sound more sophisticated. The actual opposite effect happens as you destroy the foundations by which all biblical Doctrine is built upon, including the reason why Jesus had to come in the first place. Deep-time/ billions of years interpretation for the age of the Earth makes God out to be a liar, and as Romans 3:4 tells us, it’s men not to God that lies!
Ricky Grimsley The earth was covered by water but the whole earth wasn’t composed of water. That’s silly. He moved the waters to let the land that was cover appear. It was already there under Lucifer’s flood.
Peter Fiske Ricky Grimsley, Genesis 1:2 is a subordinate clause to Genesis 1:1, which says God created everything in the beginning. Genesis 1:2 specifies the Earth as it was for the land appeared, which was a primordial mass of water. Genesis 1:5 clearly tells us that at the end of the first Day of Creation (bounded by in the evening and morning) during Creation Week (Genesis 1:1-31), that these were the creative events of the first calendar day!http://biblehub.com/genesis/1-5.htmThere is no literary structure in Genesis 1 indicating a previous chaotic state of punishment, and then God supposedly *re-creating.* That’s heretical false doctrine read into the text of Genesis 1!
Troy Day Job states clearly WHEN God was creating earth, the angels were already there rejoicing. Meaning they were created prior before earth. It doesnt matter if its day 1 5 6 What matters is that in Gen 1:1 the angels were already created
Peter Fiske No that’s not true, you’re misreading Job 38. The angels, when God had created very early in Creation Week, were rejoicing during the week of Creation. Remember, there are 168 hours is in 7 literal days. The angels had plenty of time to rejoice within 168 hours!
Troy Day No I am not misreading It is pretty clear Gen 1:1 says God created earth Job says the angels were there when earth was createdThis means the angles were there when earth was created in Gen 1:1 and it is very plausible that lucifer and 1/3 angels were fallen before Gen 1:2
Peter Fiske Troy Day, Job 38:4-7 clearly says that the angels were present during most of Creation Week to see the creation being carried out on a daily basis. There’s no need to try to insert their creation before Genesis 1:1, just so you can gratify yourself as a follower Finis Jennings Dake, who was a false teacher!
Gary Micheal Epping Peter Fiske Stop acting like you are stupid, because you are very cunning and clever. A foundation by its very definition (underlying basis, starting point, beginning) goes in before anything else. Certainly, none of the events of the 6 days could take place until after the foundation was laid.  Even the formation of the waters and earth in gen 1:1 could not be started until the very foundation on which it all stands was completed. An unbiased reading of Job 38:6-7 (“Who laid its cornerstone,  when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?”) reveals that God  was the one that sank the cornerstone as part of the foundation prior to the creation of the earth.  This was definitely before Gen 1:1.  And who was watching Him? Yes, all of his angels.  Pure and simple, the angels had to be created before the creation of the earth in order to watch God lay the cornerstone.  Don’t try to twist and alter scripture Peter.
Peter Fiske Gary Micheal Epping, like I’ve said before I don’t have a problem with individuals wanting to read the KJV because it’s poetic and flowery in its presentation of scripture, however it’s Satan’s favorite translation in the modern era. You see, most ordinary people who don’t understand proper grammar and in-context biblical exegesis, don’t realize that history shows that languages, most notably English, has changed considerably since both 1611 and 1769 (when the KJV 1 and KJV 2 were published respectively). This has created somewhat of a problem for modern-day students of the Bible who prefer the KJV and their attempt to understand deep truths embedded in Scripture. This is why KJV English is confusing to say the least: https://christiananswers.net/dictionary/kjvwords.htmlI watched the Dake interview on old PTL Club from the early 70s  when he claimed that God gave him the entire Bible in King James English. Really? Why would God want us to understand deep truth in scripture using 400 year old outdated English? He wouldn’t! This proves conclusively to me that the spirit that entered Dake was from Satan not God! God is not the author of chaos and confusion (1 Corinthians 14:33 ESV [http://biblehub.com/esv/1_corinthians/14.htm]) but Satan is!
Gary Micheal Epping Peter Fiske Use whatever bible version you want, but a foundation must be laid before work starts on the structure, in this case the earth. The angels were watching as the cornerstone was laid in preparation for the creation of the earth.
Peter Fiske Gary Micheal Epping, stop trying to dance around my refutation of your previous poorly thought-out point. There is no direct default implication that long ago in 2 Peter 3 means and a pre-Adamite world. That’s crap that you (and other misguided Gappists) reading into the text that isn’t there, and never was there!
Gary Micheal Epping Peter Fiske You did not refute anything.  Maybe the yappers ought to change their name to old earth creationists. oops! Sorry that name has already been taken.
Peter Fiske Gary Micheal Epping ((yappers))A canned hillbilly come back? Those of us who don’t invent imaginary *gaps* that don’t exist in scripture (or time)  just to please evolutionists are called Biblical Christians, who adhere to the true and in context interpretation of the Word of God, minus Satanic insertion like the Gap myth.
Gary Micheal Epping Peter Fiske No you make up stories about fossils, bones, skeletons, oil all being part of the creation. Talk about a pixy dust story.
Peter Fiske Gary Micheal Epping, I’m not making stories up about anything, as fossils ( which are mineralized remains, including bones, of dead organisms), and oil, are indeed all part of the Saga of Creation in that during the Noah’s worldwide Flood, all these things were catastrophically deposited all over the Earth. As far as magic pixie dust goes, sprinkle billions of years into the equation, and you do away with the need for any worldwide flood, the mythical one that Finis Dake  incoherently babbles about, or the real one that occurred in Genesis 6-9.
Ricky Grimsley Cmon Pete Peter Fiske it says they sang when he laid the cornerstone. The corner is first isn’t it?  Job 38:6-7 KJVS[6] Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; [7] When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Peter Fiske Ricky Grimsley, Job 38 doesn’t say that the angels were created before Genesis 1, it says that the angels were present during Creation Week to watch God do his creative acts and to give him glory.
Ricky Grimsley Peter Fiske no it says they were there when laid the foundations and the cornerstone. That means they were already there when he started. The cornerstone is first.
Peter Fiske Ricky Grimsley, Job 38 says that the angels were present during the creation of the Earth. That reference is the same as “when the foundations were laid”. So when were the foundations laid? During the 168 hours  of Creation Week! That means the angels were created sometime in that 168 hour span, and that would give them plenty of time to sing and rejoice at what they were seeing.
Ricky Grimsley It says they saw the cornerstone laid. Cornerstone is first. They were there before 1:2
Ricky Grimsley Look Peter Fiske. Jesus himself would have to tell me the earth is 6000 years old. I’ve been reading the Bible I’m fully convinced in some version of the gap theory.
Peter Fiske Ricky Grimsley, John 1:1 tells us that Jesus is God, and scripture tells us that it is. breathed and inspired (2 Timothy 3:16-17). That means that all Doctrine in Genesis, which never mentions a gap of millions of supposed years, but doesn’t eat indicate that the Earth is less than 10,000 years old, is actually Jesus talking to you about the age of the Earth being less than 10,000 yours! Why is that so hard to understand?
Peter Fiske Ricky Grimsley, Job 38 doesn’t talk about an imaginary time before Genesis 1:1-2. Where does it say that in Scripture? Where is it specifically mentioned, let alone implied?
Peter Fiske Ricky Grimsley, you really should read something beside the KJV.https://bible.org/article/changes-kjv-1611-illustration
Ricky Grimsley I read the esv
Peter Fiske Ricky Grimsley, the ESV doesn’t improve the chances for there being a gap in Genesis 1, in fact it just makes it even more remote since we’re reading Modern English and can clearly see a series of creative processes beginning in Genesis 1:1-5 the first day of Creation Week.
Ricky Grimsley Save your breath. We both see each other as blind here.
Peter Fiske Ricky, remember you told me that you listen to people who have college degrees? Well, now’s your big chance to prove your words true! There is no Gap in Genesis 1, there doesn’t need to be because we don’t have to try to fit evolutionary based deep time into scripture. Dinosaurs, fossils, all the geologic layers found on Earth fit nicely into the model of a giant catastrophic worldwide flood event in which God told Noah that he would destroy a sin – saturated world as told in Genesis 6-9.
Ricky Grimsley I listened to you. I’ve heard it all when I was a kid. I reject your claims.
Peter Fiske What claims did you hear when you work a kid Ricky? So are you saying that you believe in evolution and millions of years instead of God creating the heavens and the Earth as he says he did in less than 10,000 years ago?
Ricky Grimsley No I don’t believe in evolution.
Troy Day pretty clear Ricky Grimsley Peter Fiske just dont see it
Rico Hero 2 Peter 3:5 New King James Version (NKJV)5 For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old,
Peter Fiske Rico Hero, of course the Earth is old in relation to us. The pyramids in Egypt were built almost 5,000 years ago, and we consider them ancient. The creation of the Earth was only about 1,500 to 2,000 years earlier, and that’s not supposed to be ancient? There’s no need to compromise Genesis with evolutionists who want to do away with God by inserting the magic pixie dust of deep- time/millions of years, by which they think all things can happen naturalistically. Christians only make themselves foolish by compromising the word of God with such people!
Rico Hero Peter Fiske, Christians who accept the literal word of God which reveals to us ” the heavens were  of old” do not as you say “compromise..with evolutionist”. This compromise with evolution is an excuse used by Young Earthers and only exists in the minds of those who willfully forget that the heavens were of old.
Peter Fiske Rico Hero, Christians who accept the literal word of God and read Genesis 1 in context can’t find any reference to a gap of supposed billions of years. That’s nothing more or less than compromising with evolutionary ideas of supposed long ages, which make the idea of a Creator unnecessary since deep time supposedly can guide naturalistic processes to not only create life from nonliving chemicals, but evolved that life from a single celled organism to something as complex as a human. The magic pixie dust is supposed deep-time, and the theologically illiterate neophytes that support the Gap myth unwittingly perpetuate this false idea.
Rico Hero Peter Fiske, Just about everyone in this group reads Genesis literally and in context and can see a gap. Because it is there. Why you cant is troubling to me so I will leave you alone as commanded Matthew 15:14 King James Version (KJV)14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
Peter Fiske Rico Hero, reading Genesis literally means reading no Gap because there is none to be found other than in the fertile imaginations of those false teachers like Finis Dake, and those Biblically  unsophisticated (dense) enough to believe that something that isn’t specifically or passively mentioned in the text of Genesis 1, is somehow there, when it clearly isn’t! You need to demonstrate fidelity to God’s word, not a cultic allegiance to a pseudo Christian false prophet (Dake) and his false and incoherent ramblings.
Troy Day Thanks Rico and Gary There is another VERY important issue here that has been ignored. In ANY instance in the NT where it says FROM THE foundation of the world(s) – the word foundation is Grk. katalambano – means to throw away or fall; many orthodox translations render it from “the falling away of the worlds” literally referring to an earlier creation that was fallen before the foundations of this creation were established
Link Hudson That’s not what I am seeing for definition or usages.  That sounds like a folk etymology anyway, kind of what some people do with Nicolaitan.  Do you have reason to think that the origin of this Greek word had anything to do with the idea that the word was fallen before Genesis 1.
Ricky Grimsley Young earth should be treated like flat earth.
Peter Fiske Ricky Grimsley, ((Young earth should be treated like flat earth))Not a good way to start considering that this is just a fallacy of equivocation.http://www.txstate.edu/…/fallacy…/Equivocation.htmlWhy? Because so-called “young earth” (Biblical Creation) is biblically-based, while a flat earth isn’t! These kinds of careless statements clearly demonstrate  that you don’t know what you’re talking about in terms of sound theology or science. You admitted to me you have no college training or degree to speak of, as the content of your messages indeed show this. This is a bad witness for the cause of Christ, as ignorance makes Christian evangelism weak and ineffective.
Ricky Grimsley I mean don’t you take the Bible literally…..doesn’t this prove the earth is flat?Revelation 7:1 KJVS[1] And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
Troy Day Ricky Grimsley Which one is young earth? I thought there are one and the same
Ricky Grimsley Apparently I put this in the wrong place
Troy Day most famous last words 🙂 Alan Smith
Peter Fiske Troy Day, the so-called young Earth is actually biblical creation, because God created the heavens and the Earth in 6 literal 24 hour days less than 10,000 years ago. That is what scripture teaches, not some ridiculous and false *Gap* (pigeon-holed into scripture by Genesis compromisers) that  can’t be found in Genesis 1 whatsoever.
Gary Micheal Epping This argument can only be settled, if we look at the situation that precedes all theories and explanations.  Determine where the chaos in Gen 1:2 came from and you will have a valid answer.
Peter Fiske Gary Micheal Epping…
Gary Micheal Epping Pete Fiske Posting pictures of yourself doesn’t add anything to what we already didn’t know about you.
Peter Fiske No Gary, that’s you! Sticking your head in the sand so you can avoid dealing with the truth, which is that we live on an earth less 10,000 years old, and we read a Bible that we don’t have to extrapolate supposedly covers millions of years, when no such story is found in any of its 66 books.
Gary Micheal Epping Pete Fiske Too thin for me. It has got to be you.
Peter Fiske Gary, I’m not that thin either.
Troy Day Gary Micheal Epping 315 comments later in this discussion, the only thing that has become clear that Peter Fiske is back into his old habits of Pete Fiske to pollute good discussions with random links, sites and comments. This topic will be temporarily closed to maintenance. It will be re-opened shortly with close monitoring of the discussions focusing on the 10 questions of OP only.

 

382 Comments

  • Reply May 21, 2018

    Varnel Watson

    Peter Fiske Pls dont spam the discussion with fast multiple copy paste comments and extra links. Give time to others to respond. Stick to the points 1 by 1 so we can get to the bottom of if it all I prefer each comment as a new paragraph and no folded tree comments that then have to be reloaded to read, but this is just my personal preference! And GO – how would you explain:

    1. Where lost souls come from?

    http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/the-pre-adamic-race-gap-theory-explains-it-all/

    • Reply May 21, 2018

      Peter Fiske

      Troy, you apparently view debate on this topic as spamming, especially my vigorous and content filled responses that really challenges the validity of the Gap Theory. Please correct me if I’m wrong but it seems as when the thread doesn’t agree with your perspective and point of view, that you use your weight as admin to shut down conversation. That’s how I conduct debates on the sites that I manage, and not a way to conduct an open forum. If you don’t want debate and just want to advocate this unbiblical idea then close the message board up for discussion, or let me know that you don’t want me to post here.

      I’ve said before that I won’t post if you have a problem with it because when I do my aim is to prove my point as vigorously as I can.

      I’ve tried to stay on topic but your friend, Gary Michael Epping, chose to deviate and spam by your own definition) this message board with his off-topic ad hominem attacks on me.

    • Reply May 21, 2018

      Varnel Watson

      Well brother, after your posts got reported 7-8 times for spam links a standard has to be establish and set clearly for the future. Lots of other groups have banned you for spamming too where other admin have found your spamming destructive. Now, please take the opportunity to actually discuss the OP.

    • Reply May 21, 2018

      Gary Micheal Epping

      A definition of spamming is “the use of electronic messaging systems like e-mails and other digital delivery systems and broadcast media to send unwanted bulk messages indiscriminately.(https://www.techopedia.com/definition/23763/spamming). I never spam. If a message is my own then I put no footnote in a post. If I paraphrase or have a direct quote from others, I include a footnote. Normally, that is all I include in a post. But, because Peter kept complaining, I started putting the reference note as a a link. It is fine with me to cut out the unnecessary reference links and just put the footnote in the context of the post. This might help any large scale spamming reference links when little or no actual information is included in a post.

    • Reply May 23, 2018

      Gary Micheal Epping

      In regard to ‘Where lost souls come from,’ Hugh Ross thinks the ancient world was peopled with pre-Adamic intelligent but soulless human-like bipedal beings. Not being made in the image of God, however, they had no possible place in the next world. Derek Prince states that the disembodied spirits of a pre-Adamic race probably constitute “evil spirits” (demons) of the present age.

    • Reply May 23, 2018

      Peter Fiske

      Gary Micheal Epping, Hugh Ross’ views are erroneous and as unbiblical as Dake’s. Providing links to support my assertions isn’t spamming, and it seems the reason you’re referring to it in such a way is that you can’t deal with the information. It’s easy to denounce the information as spam and then to insult the one giving the opposing point of view as a jackass, which you did towards me quite a few times, in order to just dismiss the opposing point of view. If you want to discuss and debate let’s do that!

    • Reply May 23, 2018

      Peter Fiske

      Gary Micheal Epping, there was never a pre-Adamic world, that’s false doctrine. The Bible is God’s Word and adding to or taking away from his pure Word is blasphemous. (Deuteronomy 4:2; Revelation 22:18,19.)

    • Reply May 23, 2018

      Peter Fiske

      Troy Day, it would interest you to know that I admin 6 creation versus Evolution groups, and I in the other admins there permit vigorous debate and discussion with citations to cite a particular perspective even if it isn’t in alignment with ours. Atheist evolutionists and other folks who may disagree with our perspective are indeed permitted and encouraged to post as long as they follow the rules which is not to troll, or to become obnoxious and vitriolic.

    • Reply May 23, 2018

      Gary Micheal Epping

      Peter Fiske The most I have said in this regard is that you are ‘stubborn as a mule.’ You do know the difference between a donkey and a mule? Hugh Ross and Derek Prince are both held in high regard by a majority of their peers, whether you like them or not. But, we are not evaluating them here, but using their comments in regard to point # 1. None of your posts so far have addressed that point, and are off topic.

    • Reply May 23, 2018

      Peter Fiske

      Gary Micheal Epping , ((The most I have said is that you are stubborn as a mule))
      Unflattering Graphics of mules bellowing is a disparaging reference and equating that with me is an ad hominem.

      ((You know the difference between a donkey and a mule))
      A second at hominem, disparaging my intelligence or discernment. Troy Day, are you following this conversation? You should be!

      ((Hugh Ross and Derek Prince are held in high regard by a majority of their peers))
      I know you Ross, I have spoken with him on more than one occasion and I know that he he’s a really nice guy, but he isn’t held in high regard by his the majority of his astrophysicist peers as most of them are atheists or agnostic and evolutionists, and regard Ross as a compromiser to Biblical Christians who oppose materialistic evolutionism (and billions of supposed years) and Genesis compromise.

    • Reply May 23, 2018

      Varnel Watson

      Stick to the points Peter Fiske

    • Reply May 23, 2018

      Peter Fiske

      Troy Day, I am however it’s hard to have meaningful dialogue when the admin and your debate opponent are against you.

    • Reply May 23, 2018

      Peter Fiske

      Gary Micheal Epping, I’ve never called you a liar, a friend of Satan, or any such disparaging thing. I have called false teachers, like Finis Jennings Dake, those things because that’s what he was as he prolifically and extensively taught these false doctrines and spread them within the Body of Christ.

    • Reply May 23, 2018

      Gary Micheal Epping

      Peter Fiske “Stubborn as a mule” is a true statement as to your ability to listen. If you want examples of ‘ad hominem,’ check out what you have called me, ‘a liar,’ ‘a deceiver,’ ‘friend of satan,’ ‘false teacher,’ to mention just a few. You have also made malicious statements about other people on this group, as will as well-known teachers and theologians in the field. Below are just a few:
      * fundamental misunderstanding of scripture
      * no idea what you’re talking about
      * First of all, taking scripture in this case Genesis 1, out of context in order to try to make it fit with evolutionary thinking of millions of supposed years, is in of itself a sin.
      * false teacher Finis Dake used the KJV because being a false prophet, he would have been acceptable to the Bible version that, Lucifer better known as Satan, seems to prefer
      * You’re twisting scripture in order to prove a toxic and deceptive false doctrine, nose out of the heretical commentaries in the Dake Bible, fallacious and heretical evolutionary ideas
      * unless he repented of misleading hundreds if not thousands of unsuspecting folks with Satanic false doctrine before he died in 1986, Finis Dake is in hell!,
      *spirit that entered Dake was from Satan not God!,
      no direct default implication that long ago in 2 Peter 3 means and a pre-Adamite world. That’s crap,
      *You need to demonstrate fidelity to God’s word, not a cultic allegiance to a pseudo Christian false prophet (Dake) and his false and incoherent ramblings.

    • Reply May 23, 2018

      Gary Micheal Epping

      Peter Fiske Peter Fiske If you want examples of ‘ad hominem,’ check out what you have called me, ‘a liar,’ ‘a deceiver,’ ‘friend of satan,’ ‘false teacher,’ to mention just a few. You have also made malicious statements about other people on this group, as will as well-known teachers and theologians in the field. Below are just a few:
      * fundamental misunderstanding of scripture
      *no idea what you’re talking about
      * First of all, taking scripture in this case Genesis 1, out of context in order to try to make it fit with evolutionary thinking of millions of supposed years, is in of itself a sin.
      * false teacher Finis Dake used the KJV because being a false prophet, he would have been acceptable to the Bible version that, Lucifer better known as Satan, seems to prefer
      * You’re twisting scripture in order to prove a toxic and deceptive false doctrine, nose out of the heretical commentaries in the Dake Bible, fallacious and heretical evolutionary ideas
      * unless he repented of misleading hundreds if not thousands of unsuspecting folks with Satanic false doctrine before he died in 1986, Finis Dake is in hell!,
      *spirit that entered Dake was from Satan not God!,
      no direct default implication that long ago in 2 Peter 3 means and a pre-Adamite world. That’s crap,
      *Christians who accept the literal word of God which reveals to us ” the heavens were of old” do not as you say “compromise..with evolutionist”,
      *You need to demonstrate fidelity to God’s word, not a cultic allegiance to a pseudo Christian false prophet (Dake) and his false and incoherent ramblings.

    • Reply May 23, 2018

      Peter Fiske

      Gary Micheal Epping, 1. Finis Dake was and is a false teacher (Gap Myth, Soulless Pre-Adamite humanoids, *Planet Heaven*, and an endless cascade of other such pseudo-theological nonsense).

      2. Calling so-called “well-known theologians” who teach heresy, like millions of supposed years years in Genesis 1, by there correct designation, isn’t an ad hominem but a statement of fact!

    • Reply May 23, 2018

      Peter Fiske

      Gary, 1. Finis Dake was and is a false teacher (Gap Myth, soulless Pre-Adamite humanoids, *Planet Heaven*, and an endless cascade of other such pseudo-theological nonsense).

      2. Calling so-called “well-known theologians” who teach heresy, like millions of supposed years in Genesis 1, by their correct designation, isn’t an ad hominem but a statement of fact!

      3. Calling out false teachers (like Dake) and false doctrine (like the Gap myth [https://answersingenesis.org/genesis/gap-theory/the-gap-theory-an-idea-with-holes/]) is a Biblical mandate, so it doesn’t matter if it offends your sensibilities or not, it’s the blunt and unvarnished truth!

    • Reply May 24, 2018

      Gary Micheal Epping

      “Christian old-earth advocates believe in the authority and integrity of the Bible as much as young-earth advocates do. By their own admission, young-earthers note that a number of well respected theologians and scholars did not and do not believe in a young earth. (americanvision/why are young people leaving the church)

    • Reply May 24, 2018

      Peter Fiske

      Gary ((Christian old-earth Advocates believe in the authority and integrity of the Bible))
      Then why did they try to rewrite the first 11 chapters of Genesis? Old earthers like Hugh Ross give lip service to the Integrity of scripture, but do exactly the opposite when they try to squeeze and unbiblical doctrine, namely supposed evolutionary based deep time, which is only necessary if life supposedly evolved from lower forms over long periods of supposed time.

      ((By their own admission young-earthers…))
      Um, it’s biblical creationists since Genesis 1-11 clearly teaches an Earth less than 10,000 years old. The term you use is inaccurate (since 6 -7 millennia ago is very ancient) and a disparaging one designed to make the in context proper Biblical position on Creation in the age of the Earth look foolish in the sight of materialistic evolutionists, old-earthers like Hugh Ross, and the late false teacher Finis Jennings Dake have tried (and unilaterally failed) to impress.

      ((why are young people leaving the church))
      As both Barna and Answers in Genesis [https://answersingenesis.org/train-up-a-child/already-gone/] have noted in their statistical studies, a slavish adherence to evolutionary ideas wedged into Genesis creates doubt about the validity of scripture in young people.

  • Reply May 23, 2018

    Varnel Watson

    Gary Micheal Epping good explanation of point (1) but as you see when opponents of the theory are asked to refute the actual theory and not some other straw man fallacy they vanish

    • Reply May 23, 2018

      Gary Micheal Epping

      Troy Day It would seem that these pre adamites who were corrupted by Satan, were destroyed, with no place for their disembodied spirits to go, but rather roam the earth until the end times. After the 6 days of creation, mankind was made in the likeness of God, and their souls going either to heaven or hell at the point of death.

    • Reply May 23, 2018

      Varnel Watson

      That makes sense What other biblical way there is to explain that Peter Fiske

    • Reply May 23, 2018

      Peter Fiske

      Troy Day, there are no pre-adamites, there’s no evidence of them in nature/fossil record [https://answersingenesis.org/fossils/fossil-record/] l, or in the Bible exclamation point point me one verse that you can conclusively say that in context says that there were supposed soulless pre-Adamites, Lucifer’s make-believe flood, and a supposed Gap in Genesis. There’s no such evidence in existence!

    • Reply May 23, 2018

      Peter Fiske

      Gary Micheal Epping, there never were any pre-Adamites, to assume such nonsense is out right heresy as it adds to the canon of the Word of God

    • Reply May 23, 2018

      Peter Fiske

      Troy Day, I haven’t erected one straw man in any of my responses. The onus is on Gappists to prove that which is an unbiblical claim, that are supposed *gap* of millions of years or more exist in Genesis 1 in order to accommodate those, like Thomas Chalmers, Finis Dake, and Hugh Ross, who wish to rewrite the Bible to make it supposedly *more palatable* with modern evolutionary based beliefs.

    • Reply May 23, 2018

      Gary Micheal Epping

      I thought we were discussing lost souls as part 1 of the OP.

    • Reply May 23, 2018

      Varnel Watson

      yeah Fiske is all over the place again #sorry

    • Reply May 23, 2018

      Peter Fiske

      Gary Micheal Epping, there are no lost souls of pre-Adamites, that’s what you were referring to wasn’t it?

    • Reply May 23, 2018

      Peter Fiske

      Day, the idea of pre-Adamites souls is a moot point, there never were any such people.

    • Reply May 23, 2018

      Gary Micheal Epping

      Peter Fiske Where is your proof of no lost souls. You just saying that doesn’t tell us anything.

    • Reply May 23, 2018

      Peter Fiske

      Gary Micheal Epping, are you referring to supposed pre-Adamite humanoids?

    • Reply May 23, 2018

      Gary Micheal Epping

      Peter Fiske No, the pre=adamite hominoids.

    • Reply May 24, 2018

      Peter Fiske

      Gary Micheal Epping, there were no pre-human hominoids (or hominids for that matter.)

      Evolutionists try to construct a suppose ladder from a chimp like common ancestor (Australpithecus afarensis [Lucy]) to humans, a process that supposedly lasted according to their flawed old age thinking, 4 to 5 million supposed to years. I’ve actually seen the *Lucy* fossil when it was on loan to the Houston Natural History Museum back in 2010. All this creature was was an ape, actually very close to an extant bonobo.
      https://answersingenesis.org/human-evolution/lucy/

    • Reply May 24, 2018

      Gary Micheal Epping

      Peter Fiske Put your point from the reference in the context of your post, or I will not respond to it.

    • Reply May 24, 2018

      Peter Fiske

      Gary Micheal Epping, for a second time I ask you, you are referring to the mythical pre-Adamite soulless caveman, right?

    • Reply May 24, 2018

      Gary Micheal Epping

      Peter Fiske no.

  • Reply May 23, 2018

    Varnel Watson

    Peter Fiske Gary Micheal Epping In the book of Hebrews, the Lord Jesus Christ is said to be the maker of the “worlds” (plural):

    “Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;”
    (Heb. 1:2 KJV)

    “Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.”
    (Heb. 11:3 KJV)

    What worldS or ageS if not the pre-adamic? What else could there be? Ricky Grimsley

    • Reply May 24, 2018

      Gary Micheal Epping

      Troy Day Worlds in these passages are definitely plural. We know from Revelation that our present world will be destroyed, ‘Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth..” (REV 21:1).’ That will be a recreated world yet to come in the future. We also exist in a recreated world that we presently live in. And then, before Gen 1;2, there is the original creation. That makes three creations of God before all sin and evil are eliminated.

    • Reply May 24, 2018

      Peter Fiske

      Gary Micheal Epping, actually Revelation 21:1 speaks of the new heavens and earth, that is the SECOND Earth since we’re still living on the first Earth that will be destroyed by fire.

      “For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water [on Day 1 of Creation Week – Genesis 1:1-5] by the Word of God [the Lord Jesus Christ -John 1:1-4], and that by means of these the [PRE-FLOOD Genesis 1 – 6] world that then existed was deluged [Noah’s Flood – Genesis 6-9] with water and perished.” ~ 2 Peter 3:5-6 [ESV]

      Then 2 Peter 3:7…
      “But by the same word rthe heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.” [ESV]

      2 Peter 3:7 parallels Revelation 21:1…
      “Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the FIRST EARTH had passed away (BY FIRE – 2 Peter 3:7], and the sea was no more.” [ESV]

      “In Revelation 21:1 God does a complete make-over of heaven and earth (Isaiah 65:17; 2 Peter 3:12–13). The new heaven and new earth are what some call the ‘eternal state’ [https://www.gotquestions.org/eternal-state.html] and will be ‘where righteousness dwells” (2 Peter 3:13).’

      https://www.gotquestions.org/new-jerusalem.html

    • Reply May 24, 2018

      Gary Micheal Epping

      Peter Fiske Above, you are referring to the earth rather than worlds. “Earth” is a planet. It is a spherical-shaped mass of matter in time and space. Actually, the earth in Gen 1:2 was not destroyed from the previous era, but was laid waste and void. At the present time, this means there is but one earth going into the end times. In Rev 21:1, it says, ‘Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away.’ A case can be made that God completely destroyed both heaven and earth, and started again from nothing. If so, then this would represent a second new heaven and earth. However, the word G3928, for away does not use the term destroyed, but rather go away or perish. A second case can be made that the earth we live in will be replenish from the remnants of the old, which would mean just one earth over time. However, either way, this does not affect the fact that we are presently living on the first earth.

      The word, worlds, as used by Troy is G165, which means, an age, and is used only in the two passages that Troy quoted in Hebrews. These worlds indicate the prevailing conditions during ages on the Earth. The present world includes the earth, our present “world” also consists of the stars in the sky, the trees of the field, the people, the cities of the nations and the present evil world system on the face of the Earth. The Hebrew passage refers only to worlds past and present, not the future one in Rev 21, since it has not yet occurred. The present world has had continuous generations of people dating back to the time of Adam. If the Hebrew passages were simply referring to this era, then the word ‘world’ would have been used. ‘Worlds’ indicate a time before Gen 1:2, when an entire previous world was completely wiped out, and God started anew with Adam.

    • Reply May 24, 2018

      Peter Fiske

      Gary Micheal Epping, you’re playing semantical games just so you can *be right* in the light of evidence against Dake’s erroneous and false picture of Earth history.

      “Lexicon :: Strong’s G1093 – gē:
      Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

      arable land

      the ground, the earth as a standing place

      the main land as opposed to the sea or water

      the earth as a whole”

      https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1093&t=ESV

      The Greek word is world or Earth, it means the same thing! There were only two world’s or Earth’s and in history. We’re still living on the first Earth that will be destroyed by fire as Revelation 21:1 says.

    • Reply May 24, 2018

      Peter Fiske

      Gary Micheal Epping, ((Earth is a planet))
      Yeah, so this has been revealed to you, huh?

      ((It is a spherical shaped mass… in time and space))
      Yeah, so far so good. Except that you’re attempting to split hairs here. Those type of maneuvers cause confusion, which false teachers, like Dake are known to do. So don’t get me wrong here like you did before, I’m not calling you a false teacher like Dake. But trying to read things into the text of in order to change the context of that text, is known as eisegesis. The terms are used synonymously in context, using proper biblical hermeneutics. There is no ambiguity here other than trying to read a supposed pre-Adamic world into the text scripture when there is none to be found.

      ((the earth and Gen 1:2 was not destroyed from the previous era, but was laid waste and void))
      You’re confusing (whether ignorantly or deliberately I’m not sure) terms, laid waste versus destroyed. Either way, if the Earth was destroyed in Genesis 1:2, which it wasn’t, it would be laid waste, which means the same thing. The end result would be a void (Hebrew = bohu) or empty planet. However, Genesis 1:2 isn’t talking about Earth being laid waste/destroyed, which is the same thing, from some bygone previous pre-Adamic epoch millions of imaginary years ago.

      Genesis 1:2 reveals a creative act by God on Day One of Creation Week! The Hebrew disjunctive phrase/clause “tohu vav bohu” (unformed and void/empty) is a subordinate clause to the subject-verb clause in Genesis 1:1, specifically states God creating the Heavens and the Earth on Day ONE of Creation Week.

      “[12th century] Jewish rabbi Ibn Ezra, modified the translation to:
      ‘When God began to create the heavens and the earth, the earth was formless and empty .” [Fields, W.W., Unformed and Unfilled, Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing Company, Nutley, New Jersey, p. 151, 1976. ]

      Genesis 1:1-5 describes the series of creative processes on Day 1 of Creation Week, not a *re-creation* process from a previous on mentioned and quite mythical era of supposed pre-Adamite cave dwellers.

    • Reply May 24, 2018

      Gary Micheal Epping

      Peter Fiske The words earth (H776 and G1093 ) and worlds (G165) do not mean the same thing. The first means earth (at {large}, whole of the terrene globe, while the second means properly an age. The two Hebrew passages are the only ones that use worlds (G165), and are talking about eras, not the physical earth. At the present time, we have had only one earth, but two worlds (eras). One era from Adam to the present, and another that preceded Gen 1:2. It is not using semantical games to use the means from Strongs to show that the ‘earth’ and ‘worlds’ are not the same. Troy was talking about ‘worlds’ not the earth in his post. The answer is one earth, but two worlds.

  • Reply May 23, 2018

    Peter Fiske

    Troy Day, as far as your pre-Adamite humanoids go, what do you say about this?

    “Adam named his wife Eve, because she would become the mother of all the living.” ~Genesis 3:20 [ESV]

    The Hebrew word for “Eve” in Genesis 3:20 is:

    “חַוָּה Chavvâh, khav-vaw’;” causatively from H2331; life-giver; Chavvah (or Eve), the
    first woman:—Eve.

    https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H2332&t=KJV

    So Eve was the mother of all living, how could she be the mother of pre-Adamite humans?

    • Reply May 23, 2018

      Gary Micheal Epping

      Don’t know about others, but I do not want to have to hunt through your citation. Put what you think in your post and we can address that.

    • Reply May 23, 2018

      Gary Micheal Epping

      Peter Fiske You said you are ready to debate. Do it. Where did lost souls come from according to post # 1. If not from the pre-adamites, then where. We am listening. Or now, now the administrator has introduced second topic, ‘the Lord Jesus Christ is said to be the maker of the “worlds” (plural I am not discussing anything more with you unless it is on topic.

    • Reply May 24, 2018

      Peter Fiske

      Excuse me Gary, but I post citations as part of the point I’m making. You have as long as you like, at your leisure, to skim through the citation I post. It’s not as if you are constrained to a short time interval. I post citations because it supports what I say, which shows that I’m not just blowing smoke from my rear end, like Dake did on so many of his false teachings.

    • Reply May 24, 2018

      Peter Fiske

      Gary Micheal Epping, the Lord created only one Earth, some six to seven thousand years ago, as faithfully recorded in Genesis 1:1-31. 2 Peter 3 reminds us that there was a pre-Flood (antediluvian) world that lasted from Creation Week (Genesis 1:1-31) to the year Methuselah died, and Noah’s Flood came 1,656 years later, and the current Earth that has lasted since Genesis 9, the post-Flood world which will be destroyed by fire when the Lord Jesus Christ returns to set up His Millennial Kingdom.

    • Reply May 24, 2018

      Varnel Watson

      I dont even know how this make ANY sense No one is arguing Eve was was mother of the pre-Adamites

    • Reply May 24, 2018

      Peter Fiske

      Troy Day, there were no pre-adamites. There’s no scriptural or scientific evidence to support such nonsense.

      Gary Micheal Epping tries to parrot Hugh Ross’ bizarre (and false) interpretations of scripture trying to salvage the evolutionary idea of supposed deep-time/millions of years, where he tries to equate so-called pre-human “homonoids” (extinct apes in the fossil record) as candidates for the supposed soulless pre-Adamite humanoids. This mass of gibberish is completely unbiblical, and has no coherent foundation in secular (evolutionist) academic circles either. Secular evolutionists literally laugh at Hugh Ross’ attempt to integrate his bizarre interpretations [https://answersingenesis.org/astronomy/the-dubious-apologetics-of-hugh-ross/] with their materialistic paradigm.
      https://ncse.com/library-resource/review-more-than-theory

    • Reply May 24, 2018

      Gary Micheal Epping

      Peter Fiske Why do you always attack the man rather than deal with what he wrote. Where did the lost souls come from?

  • Reply May 24, 2018

    Varnel Watson

    Ricky Grimsley here is another good one based on Peter Fiske last one about Eve. If there were no pre-Adamites how did the know to search for women in Gen 6 #THERE

  • Reply May 24, 2018

    Varnel Watson

    Gary Micheal Epping it seems to me that after all this time Peter Fiske canNOT answer (1) so we then we move to #2

    2. Where the demons come from?

    I dont buy what Ricky Grimsley says about Gen 6
    Have my own theory I’ve shared and will share again

    • Reply May 24, 2018

      Peter Fiske

      I have answered #1, there never were any pre-Adamite humanoids, so they are non-existent, therefore lost souls must be those of people (Homo Sapiens, descendants of Adam) who have died without being under the grace of God that was applied through faith to men like Enoch, Noah, and Abraham (Hebrews 11), under the old Covenant before the Messiah came. Those (descendants of Adam) who died apart from Christ after Jesus died on the cross are also lost souls, as they are in Hades (1 Peter 3:19) awaiting Final Judgement.

      Demons, unlike the false designation in the commentaries in the Dake Bible, are fallen angels that banished to Earth with Lucifer when he rebelled against God sometime after Creation Week ( Ezekiel 28:13-15; Isaiah 14). Revelation 12:9 also indicates that demons are fallen angels.

    • Reply May 24, 2018

      Varnel Watson

      But Fiske you got virtually NO Bible to prove demons descent from Adam? Where in the Bible does it say that?

    • Reply May 24, 2018

      Peter Fiske

      Day, I didn’t say that demons descended from Adam.

    • Reply May 24, 2018

      Gary Micheal Epping

      Peter Fiske All humans since the time of Adam, at the point of death, either go to heaven or hell, and do not roam the face of the earth as a demon. Angels have a celestial body that can be seen by others, they have a seed like Eve, and have no need to possess or live in a human being.

  • Reply May 24, 2018

    Charles Page

    What is a dinosaucer?

  • Reply May 24, 2018

    Varnel Watson

    Ricky Grimsley the Hebrew for dinosaucer is Charles Page

  • Reply May 25, 2018

    Varnel Watson

    Gary Micheal Epping since Peter Fiske couldnot respond to (2) shall we move to (3) now?

  • Reply May 27, 2018

    Varnel Watson

    Gary Micheal Epping what Fiske dows when backed into the wall like that he goes to be an expert on other topics. But I think we should proceed with 3, because OP has theological value

  • Reply May 28, 2018

    Varnel Watson

    Gary Micheal Epping Ricky Grimsley the question about the fall of Satan in #3 maybe too hard for flat earthers to answer but #4 is also not that easy

    4. How did 1/3 of the angels fall with Satan?

    • Reply May 28, 2018

      Ricky Grimsley

      Maybe they haven’t yet.

    • Reply May 28, 2018

      Varnel Watson

      You should consult Charles Page on this one

    • Reply May 28, 2018

      Ricky Grimsley

      At the Tower of Babel God divided up the world among the angels and took Abraham for himself? Deuteronomy 32:7-8 ESV
      [7] Remember the days of old; consider the years of many generations; ask your father, and he will show you, your elders, and they will tell you. [8] When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when he divided mankind, he fixed the borders of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God.

    • Reply May 28, 2018

      Varnel Watson

      what was the name of the guy you like saying God had 70 or 72 sons? and JEsus as YHWH yes Heiser he quotes Dt 32 Is this the direction you are going Ricky Grimsley you are actually miss quoting him quite wrongly He believes not merely among the angels BUT among the sons of God who were 70 and among them JEsus to be YHWH – all this cult like theology that some ppl love http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/is-heiser-the-source-of-jesus-and-yhwh/

    • Reply May 28, 2018

      Ricky Grimsley

      That’s not what he says.

    • Reply May 28, 2018

      Ricky Grimsley

      I’ve listen to 50 hours of header and read two books. He isn’t starting a cult.

    • Reply May 28, 2018

      Varnel Watson

      that is precisely what he says His exact statement is that under the restoration of the 2nd davidic kingdom YHWH is Yeshua the one born Son among other created sons of God #hello and now there is a whole theological movement to debunk his falsified theoretix http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/dr-john-walton-job-lecture-10-sons-of-god-and-satan/

    • Reply May 28, 2018

      Ricky Grimsley

      You don’t believe that Jehovah is Jesus? You don’t believe that the angels are sons of God and that Jesus is a sin by birth?

    • Reply May 28, 2018

      Varnel Watson

      Jehovah’s Witnesses hold #adoptionism like you 🙂 http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/jehovahs-witnesses-hold-adoptionism/

  • Reply May 28, 2018

    Varnel Watson

    bro Gary lets be moving along to #5 Neither Ricky Grimsley or no one else can explain when satan and angels came down EXCEPT with the Gap theory between GENESIS 1:1-2 #there

  • Reply May 29, 2018

    Varnel Watson

    Gary Micheal Epping

    • Reply May 29, 2018

      Ricky Grimsley

      Didn’t Satan’s angels come down in genesis 6?

    • Reply May 29, 2018

      Varnel Watson

      I’d say gen 1:1-2 except if you call the sons of God satans angels – who are hells angels?

  • Reply May 29, 2018

    Varnel Watson

    Tom Steele Azazel (Hebrew: עֲזָאזֵל‎, translit. ʿAzazel; Arabic: عزازيل‎, translit. ʿAzāzīl) appears in the Torah Bible in association with the scapegoat rite. In some traditions of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, it is the name for a fallen angel.

  • Reply May 29, 2018

    Varnel Watson

    Gary Micheal Epping to me the first 4 are resolved as cannot be explained without the GAP theory, so we move to #5

    5. Why do the Bible tells us TWO creation stories?

    Many liberal theologians have denied it or explained it away but is still there. IMO It related to the creation/falling of the world(S) Heb 11:3 By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God,

  • Reply May 30, 2018

    Varnel Watson

    Gary Micheal Epping it is starting to be clear to me that our evolution friends just cant answer 1-5 Shall we move to #6 now?

  • Reply September 21, 2018

    Varnel Watson

    Good luck with that Jordan Evans

    • Reply September 23, 2018

      Jordan Evans

      These could easily be explained without a pre-Adamic race. In fact, Dr. John H. Walton just finished a three-part series on the opening chapters of Genesis called The Lost World of Genesis On, The Lost World of Adam and Eve, and The Lost World of the Flood. I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of him, but he is the world’s foremost Old Testament/Hebrew scholar – what NT Wright is to the New Testament, Walton is to the Old Testament. On top of that, he’s also a Charismatic and Pastors in the Christian & Missionary Alliance. I highly recommend his work.

    • Reply September 23, 2018

      Varnel Watson

      If it is so easy – just try it 🙂 Ricky Grimsley I dont really follow adventists or their scholars but I could

    • Reply September 23, 2018

      Jordan Evans

      Troy Day yeah, I’ll reply when I’m home from the day.

    • Reply September 23, 2018

      Varnel Watson

      the 7the day?

    • Reply September 23, 2018

      Jordan Evans

      Troy Day no, from church lol

    • Reply September 23, 2018

      Varnel Watson

      7the day church? 🙂

    • Reply September 23, 2018

      Jordan Evans

      Troy Day nope – regular Charismatic/Pentecostal church in Charlotte, NC.

      wearethegate.com

    • Reply September 23, 2018

      Varnel Watson

      oh Lord regular would be the term 🙂 Jimmy Humphrey

    • Reply September 23, 2018

      Jordan Evans

      Idk where you got the idea we were Adventist..

    • Reply September 23, 2018

      Varnel Watson

      you gave a link + said something about THE day 🙂

    • Reply September 23, 2018

      Jordan Evans

      Troy Day yeah, I’m on the leadership team at The Gate, my Sunday is usually packed and I don’t get home until later in the day.

    • Reply September 23, 2018

      Varnel Watson

      I just asked a question You should preach pre-Adamic Most 7th day adventists believe this stuff

    • Reply September 23, 2018

      Jordan Evans

      Troy Day I preach/teach historical-contextual-grammatical understandings of the text. You have to do exegetical origami to get a pre-Adamic race, or a gap theory for that matter, from the text. The “two flood accounts” suggestion is comical as well.

    • Reply September 23, 2018

      Varnel Watson

      You will have to explain to us “two flood accounts without the gap-theory then. Would love to see you try 🙂 Many have tried in this group in failed greatly into the 7th day heresy Why would you cite a pre-Adamc teacher then?

    • Reply September 23, 2018

      Jordan Evans

      Troy Day what are you talking about? Who is a pre-Adamic teacher? John Walton certainly isn’t.

    • Reply September 23, 2018

      Varnel Watson

      most 7th days adventists are – check with me later

    • Reply September 24, 2018

      Varnel Watson

      many have tried and failed…

    • Reply September 24, 2018

      Jordan Evans

      First, I answer these questions from the cultural-historical-grammatical hermeneutic, meaning that I believe Biblical texts can only properly be understood in the way the original writers intended for them to be understood (writer’s purpose) and the way the original readers/hearers would have understood as well (reader relevance).

      Second, many of these questions have no connection to a “pre-Adamic” race theory whatsoever, such as questions about dinosaurs and the Fall of Satan.

      Third, I have summarized answers due to time constraints, but I have mentioned some recommended scholarly sources for further study and review.

      1. Where lost souls come from?

      I don’t understand why this is an issue – I can’t remember reading anything about lost souls in the creation account.

      2. Where the demons come from?

      Souls of the Nephilim, in my opinion, and this is the case in The Book of Enoch and other Jewish writings. Though Enoch is not canon, it is most likely how early Jews would have understood some of these texts. See Dr. Michael Heiser’s book Reversing Hermon, and The Unseen Realm.

      3. When did Satan fall from the Heavens?

      Most likely during the time of chaos when the earth was “without form” and “void.” Some think his fall may be the very reason why the earth was without form and void in the first place. Some scholars have theorized he fell with the angels Pre-Deluge, yet Post-Fall of Man. The serpent being in the garden doesn’t necessitate a belief that Satan had already fallen at the time, especially since we see in Job that he is in heaven with “sons of God.” This question simply isn’t answered in scripture, meaning we can only hypothesize. See The Unseem Realm by Dr. Michael Heiser.

      Again, I don’t see what this has to do with a pre-Adamic race.

      4. How did 1/3 of the angels fall with Satan?

      .. They tripped and fell down the Stairway of Heaven? Honestly don’t see what this has to do with a pre-Adamic race. With that being said, the first mention of an angelic fall of some kind is mentioned before the Flood, but after The Fall of Man. This could have been the time Satan fell as well – scripture simply doesn’t give us the black and white answer.

      5. Why do the Bible tells us TWO creation stories?

      The Bible doesn’t tell two creation stories – it opens with a chiastic poem about the glory of God’s sovereignty over creation, and then switches to narrative form to illustrate where everything went wrong with the world.

      6. Why was earth created staples and void (this brings to perspective flat earth vs a globe as well)?

      In the ANE mind, before time began, there was chaos, disorder, and nothing had function, and so Genesis 1 is a chiastic poem about God’s sovereign declaration to bring order, function, and rule to the cosmos. Dr. John H. Walton and Dr. Meredith G. Kline have treatments on Genesis 1 that expound upon this view showing the covenantal implications.

      7. Why do the Bible tells us TWO flood narratives?

      There are not two flood narratives – there is only one flood narrative, with a reference to “the deep” in the opening chapter of Genesis. This connects back to my answer for #6 in that ancient near eastern people, particularly the ancient Jews, saw the ocean as a place of chaos – it’s where the leviathan lived – there was no order. The beauty of Genesis 1 in the mind of these ancient people is that Yahweh could make order out of chaos – He is sovereign over all creation, including the dangerous, chaotic waters. For more information, see The Lost World of Genesis One by Dr. John H. Walton, the world’s foremost Hebrew and ANE history/language scholar.

      8. Age of earth?

      It’s important to remember that Genesis 1-3 is not a scientific textbook for the purpose of trying to prove a young earth theory – the early Jews and original reads could care less about those questions, so I don’t believe it is something we should have in mind when we read these texts. Genesis 1 is chiastic poetry about the ordering of the cosmos. We cannot read our modern scientific questions and theories into a text that was written before they knew what germs were, what gravity was, etc. They believed the earth was flat, the atmosphere was domed, and there was a firmament (hard layer) that kept waters above from pouring onto them below.. Not really dealing with scientists here.

      If that doesn’t satisfy you, Dr. Gerald Schroeder (PhD in Nuclear Physics and Planetary Sciences from Massachusetts Institute if Technology) has presented a very interesting theory, namely, that from the perspective of the point of origin of the Big Bang, according to Einstein’s equations of the ‘stretching factor’, time dilates by a factor of roughly 1,000,000,000,000, meaning one trillion days on earth would appear to pass as one day from that point, due to the stretching of space. When applied to the estimated age of the universe at 13.8 billion years, from the perspective of the point of origin, the universe today would appear to have just begun its sixth day of existence, or if the universe is 15 billion years old from the perspective of earth, it would appear to have just completed its sixth day. So the earth can be both young and old at the same time.

      9. The disappearing of the dinosaucers and why where no dinosaucers in Noah’s ark?

      Some have theorized they existed during the time earth was void and a wasteland. It’s important to keep in mind that ANE saw “existence” and “function” as the same thing. So something doesn’t truly “exist” unless it serves a purpose of some kind, or functions in a particular way. For example, a Greek would look at a chair and say, “I can see and feel the chair, therefore the chair exists.” An ANE person would say, “I can sit in this chair, therefore it exists.”

      If we keep this in mind, they very well could have existed in a time before the earth was suitable for man – before earth was functioning and in order. Keep in mind as well, that dinosaurs lived during a time when the atmosphere was completely different from our current atmosphere – humans and most dinosaurs simply could not co-exist.

      10. The whole doctrine of Original sin and its coming into man’s flesh?

      Seeing as how the original sin was carried out by Adam and Eve, I do not believe this has anything to do with a pre-Adamic race.

  • Reply September 24, 2018

    Thangsan Hisfootstep

    All better not to daydream beyond what the Scripture clearly tells us. For that’s all our small brain can best bear.

  • Reply September 24, 2018

    Varnel Watson

    Jordan Evans like I said 🙂 many have tried and failed Let’s see how you can do defending your position…

  • Reply September 24, 2018

    Jordan Evans

    First, I answer these questions from the cultural-historical-grammatical hermeneutic, meaning that I believe Biblical texts can only properly be understood in the way the original writers intended for them to be understood (writer’s purpose) and the way the original readers/hearers would have understood as well (reader relevance).

    Second, many of these questions have no connection to a “pre-Adamic” race theory whatsoever, such as questions about dinosaurs and the Fall of Satan.

    Third, I have summarized answers due to time constraints, but I have mentioned some recommended scholarly sources for further study and review.

    1. Where lost souls come from?

    I don’t understand why this is an issue – I can’t remember reading anything about lost souls in the creation account.

    2. Where the demons come from?

    Souls of the Nephilim, in my opinion, and this is the case in The Book of Enoch and other Jewish writings. Though Enoch is not canon, it is most likely how early Jews would have understood some of these texts. See Dr. Michael Heiser’s book Reversing Hermon, and The Unseen Realm.

    3. When did Satan fall from the Heavens?

    Most likely during the time of chaos when the earth was “without form” and “void.” Some think his fall may be the very reason why the earth was without form and void in the first place. Some scholars have theorized he fell with the angels Pre-Deluge, yet Post-Fall of Man. The serpent being in the garden doesn’t necessitate a belief that Satan had already fallen at the time, especially since we see in Job that he is in heaven with “sons of God.” This question simply isn’t answered in scripture, meaning we can only hypothesize. See The Unseem Realm by Dr. Michael Heiser.

    Again, I don’t see what this has to do with a pre-Adamic race.

    4. How did 1/3 of the angels fall with Satan?

    .. They tripped and fell down the Stairway of Heaven? Honestly don’t see what this has to do with a pre-Adamic race. With that being said, the first mention of an angelic fall of some kind is mentioned before the Flood, but after The Fall of Man. This could have been the time Satan fell as well – scripture simply doesn’t give us the black and white answer.

    5. Why do the Bible tells us TWO creation stories?

    The Bible doesn’t tell two creation stories – it opens with a chiastic poem about the glory of God’s sovereignty over creation, and then switches to narrative form to illustrate where everything went wrong with the world.

    6. Why was earth created staples and void (this brings to perspective flat earth vs a globe as well)?

    In the ANE mind, before time began, there was chaos, disorder, and nothing had function, and so Genesis 1 is a chiastic poem about God’s sovereign declaration to bring order, function, and rule to the cosmos. Dr. John H. Walton and Dr. Meredith G. Kline have treatments on Genesis 1 that expound upon this view showing the covenantal implications.

    7. Why do the Bible tells us TWO flood narratives?

    There are not two flood narratives – there is only one flood narrative, with a reference to “the deep” in the opening chapter of Genesis. This connects back to my answer for #6 in that ancient near eastern people, particularly the ancient Jews, saw the ocean as a place of chaos – it’s where the leviathan lived – there was no order. The beauty of Genesis 1 in the mind of these ancient people is that Yahweh could make order out of chaos – He is sovereign over all creation, including the dangerous, chaotic waters. For more information, see The Lost World of Genesis One by Dr. John H. Walton, the world’s foremost Hebrew and ANE history/language scholar.

    8. Age of earth?

    It’s important to remember that Genesis 1-3 is not a scientific textbook for the purpose of trying to prove a young earth theory – the early Jews and original reads could care less about those questions, so I don’t believe it is something we should have in mind when we read these texts. Genesis 1 is chiastic poetry about the ordering of the cosmos. We cannot read our modern scientific questions and theories into a text that was written before they knew what germs were, what gravity was, etc. They believed the earth was flat, the atmosphere was domed, and there was a firmament (hard layer) that kept waters above from pouring onto them below.. Not really dealing with scientists here.

    If that doesn’t satisfy you, Dr. Gerald Schroeder (PhD in Nuclear Physics and Planetary Sciences from Massachusetts Institute if Technology) has presented a very interesting theory, namely, that from the perspective of the point of origin of the Big Bang, according to Einstein’s equations of the ‘stretching factor’, time dilates by a factor of roughly 1,000,000,000,000, meaning one trillion days on earth would appear to pass as one day from that point, due to the stretching of space. When applied to the estimated age of the universe at 13.8 billion years, from the perspective of the point of origin, the universe today would appear to have just begun its sixth day of existence, or if the universe is 15 billion years old from the perspective of earth, it would appear to have just completed its sixth day. So the earth can be both young and old at the same time.

    9. The disappearing of the dinosaucers and why where no dinosaucers in Noah’s ark?

    Some have theorized they existed during the time earth was void and a wasteland. It’s important to keep in mind that ANE saw “existence” and “function” as the same thing. So something doesn’t truly “exist” unless it serves a purpose of some kind, or functions in a particular way. For example, a Greek would look at a chair and say, “I can see and feel the chair, therefore the chair exists.” An ANE person would say, “I can sit in this chair, therefore it exists.”

    If we keep this in mind, they very well could have existed in a time before the earth was suitable for man – before earth was functioning and in order. Keep in mind as well, that dinosaurs lived during a time when the atmosphere was completely different from our current atmosphere – humans and most dinosaurs simply could not co-exist.

    10. The whole doctrine of Original sin and its coming into man’s flesh?

    Seeing as how the original sin was carried out by Adam and Eve, I do not believe this has anything to do with a pre-Adamic race.

  • Reply September 24, 2018

    Varnel Watson

    So Jordan Evans these look like great “proofs” but are all 10 quite ambiguous Just to reject something without defending your rejection dont really mean much. Like I said, check the previous several hundred comments on this thread Many have tried and failed including all time favorite Pete Fiske was argumentation was demolished by Gary Micheal Epping and Rico Hero together Pls check their previous responses to your arguments

  • Reply January 13, 2019

    Rob Franzen

    I have answered all of those questions without the unscriptural gap theory in:

    Creation Under Fire from within the church https://www.amazon.com/dp/1607916436/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_ddbpCb1KFJ2KT

  • Reply January 14, 2019

    Varnel Watson

    Rob Franzen pls share your answers with us here

  • Reply January 14, 2019

    Gary Micheal Epping

    If you have the time, here is a free read for those that would like to see an alternate view about the gap theory.
    http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/In-The-Beginning.pdf

    • Reply January 14, 2019

      Gary Micheal Epping

      If you want to skip the theological arguments about Creation, and hear the Angel Cody’s eyewitness story about creation, you can skip to Chapter two.

    • Reply January 18, 2019

      Varnel Watson

      Robert Franzen Gary is making a very good point here – skip all the creation talk we’ve heard before and go straight for the answer without using Gap Theory of course

  • Reply January 15, 2019

    Varnel Watson

    Rob Franzen still waiting on you to share your answers

    • Reply January 16, 2019

      Rob Franzen

      Troy Day okay: I’ll have to make it a “note” because obviously to answer each of these is quite lengthy.

    • Reply January 16, 2019

      Varnel Watson

      yes – hence this group and the discussions in it

    • Reply January 16, 2019

      Kevin Brown

      Don’t. Even try Rob. Thay not gona heed. Wasting you time nobeleavers always find a way out.

    • Reply January 16, 2019

      Rob Franzen

      A pre-adamic race of the gap theory has no Scriptural evidence whatsoever – NONE. I know the theory like the back of my hand. I know Clarence Larkin’s work, Scofield and Dake’s work very well. Great men, but they all bought into the theory which was created in 1814 as a response to the growing pressures of science.
      If I can create a “note” I can answer everything very easily

    • Reply January 16, 2019

      Rob Franzen

    • Reply January 16, 2019

      Rob Franzen

    • Reply January 16, 2019

      Rob Franzen

      The gap theory suffered its death blow in 1970 (by the author below), yet many haven’t gotten the memo yet. A couple of generations were raised on it. However, once a bad teaching gets in the church it’s hard to get it out once it gets popular. So it takes a couple/few generations to die out – & it is; especially for those who know how to study/interpret & research.

      By Arthur C. Custance – Without Form and Void: A Study of the Meaning of Genesis 1:2 (Reprint) (2008-08-16) [Paperback] https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0146V2KEM/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_LD5pCbEB85W0D

    • Reply January 16, 2019

      Rob Franzen

      My book, along with many others have been stamping out the heretical fires ever since. But hardly any good scholars believe it today because it is way to easy to punch holes Thru it

  • Reply January 15, 2019

    Gary Micheal Epping

    Amanda commented, “Wow! Now this is some story! We have
    talked about all of the important theories on how God created the
    heavens and the earth. The argument for the GEN 1:1-2 gap seems
    to be the only plausible explanation. But, you know, we’re still
    theorizing without really knowing exactly what happened.”

    • Reply January 15, 2019

      Isara Mo

      Gary Micheal Epping
      We are still theorizing without really knowing exactly WHAT HAPPENED”

    • Reply January 15, 2019

      Gary Micheal Epping

      Cody, the angel, dropped down from the tree and answered, “You’ve covered the issues based on information from the Bible, as well as the scientific record. Would you like to hear an eyewitness account of what actually took place?” Somewhat startled Denny declared, “You dang tootin! Nothing can better settle a bunch of theorizing than direct experience.”

    • Reply January 21, 2019

      Isara Mo

      Gary Micheal Epping
      Theoretical deductions if followed systematically will solve the puzzle.
      Scientists do it; theologians cringe…for fear of offending the Divine

  • Reply January 16, 2019

    Varnel Watson

    Gary Micheal Epping we;ve discussed this here before 2-3 may be easy to explain but the other 7-8 there is just NO way I am still waiting on Rob Franzen to give us his explanation. I do hope his comment was just not a book ad – but even after checking his book out I still dont see these 7 basic questions being answered without gap-theory

    • Reply January 16, 2019

      Robert Franzen

      Troy Day I see a key statement you made here:
      “but … I still don’t see these 7 basic questions being answered without the gap-theory.”
      This statement says a lot about your research I hate to say. I will suggest that to have a good education one should be versed on other views – after all, Universities are “ideas” coming together to study each – not just one view.
      I have studied & discovered at least 12 major views of Genesis/Creation within the Church. That’s the next book .

  • Reply January 16, 2019

    Robert Franzen

    One of my favorite chapters I wrote is on “When Did Satan Fall?”
    & another “Where Did Demons Come From?”
    Also included a part 2 in that chapter on Genesis 6 & The Nephilim etc.

  • Reply January 16, 2019

    Varnel Watson

    Robert Franzen I would have to say that I really anticipated more from your research than just a reference to something no one here has read. As far as who has education and not I would rather not comment at that level – people get easily offended and intimidated and its not worth the time. If you think you can address the 10 questions just take them one at the time and have at it.

    • Reply January 16, 2019

      Robert Franzen

      Troy Day I did with a couple of them already – above. I have plenty more but one thing at a time

  • Reply January 16, 2019

    Varnel Watson

    Thanks Robert Franzen for some reason my auto tagger always tags you as Rob Franzen lets start with your version of “When Did Satan Fall?” – I have countered with both Link Hudson and Gary Micheal Epping and have not found another better time. Even LInk who follows Heiser to the dot would agree on earlier pre-Adamic fall of Satan Did the devil sin before Adam? http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/did-the-devil-sin-before-adam/

    • Reply January 16, 2019

      Robert Franzen

      Troy Day I’ll get it to Rob or Robert – long story – one was for ministry/my book but fb won’t change the name back to the book like I originally had it:(

    • Reply January 16, 2019

      Varnel Watson

      OK so its both you No problem I just didnt want to tag some presbyterian / episcopal priest who had no clue what I was asking – so when did ol satan fall if not before the fall of Adam?

    • Reply January 16, 2019

      Robert Franzen

      Troy Day Yes, Satan sinned before Adam – in the spirit realm. The two realms parallel each other. The spiritual realm first & legally has to be.
      However, the Bible doesn’t say when he fell – & Scripture certainly doesn’t say he fell before creation; one would have to assume that (wrongly).
      Scripture gives a few clues; he was in the garden before Adam fell naturally,

    • Reply January 16, 2019

      Varnel Watson

      He was in the garden before Adam is understood that he came / fell from somewhere else prior to that Are you suggesting the garden was created with satan in it?

    • Reply January 16, 2019

      Robert Franzen

      Isa. 14 gives clues & Ezekiel 28 gives clues. Notice what is in existence – ie an “earth.” He was cast to the earth – which was already created. Ok, I’m sure you wouldn’t argue that. Now, a few other questions we have to try to get close to.
      1) is there any indication of any problems in Scriptures creation story?
      2) How much time went by between the creation of Adam & his fall?

    • Reply January 16, 2019

      Robert Franzen

      I am suggesting that the anointed cherub that became Satan was in the garden before he fell – after the creation week
      Thus the fall was sometime after creation & before Adam fell. How much time is that?

    • Reply January 16, 2019

      Varnel Watson

      So your question #2 seems to suggest the fall was AFTER the creation of Adam – there is absolutely no Bible for that except if you suggest satan’s fall was between Gen. ch 2 and ch 3 whichwould be absurd

    • Reply January 16, 2019

      Robert Franzen

      Troy Day that’s kind of correct Troy – sounds absurd to traditional thinking & traditional theology, but thinking & proper hermeneutics shows something else outside the box of tradition. Traditions are good but sometimes it can blind us to or rather cause us to take for granted something without doing proper exegesis

    • Reply January 16, 2019

      Robert Franzen

      This one verse (plus a whole lot of other evidence) shows us this:
      Ezekiel 28:13
      Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

      This was before his fall & clearly after creation

    • Reply January 16, 2019

      Varnel Watson

      It sounds to me thus far that you dont have a better suggestion for the fall of satan except between Gen ch 1 vs 1 and vs 2 – in order to get satan there before the fall of Adam but not say God created Eden with satan in it – what else is there?

    • Reply January 16, 2019

      Robert Franzen

      Troy Day why would you say it’s absurd?
      Where does Scripture or anything else say the devil fell before or during Creation week/time?
      I assume all you can say is that Satan was there in the garden tempting Adam & Eve – right? Anything else?

    • Reply January 16, 2019

      Robert Franzen

      Troy Day & no. The fall was not between verse 1 & 2 of the first chapter of Genesis. What would make you say this (I’m expecting to hear the classic gap story) but genuinely try to think of another view that could possibly be.
      Like start with GOD – perfection; & go from there. I feel like going on but let me ask; Have you read any other view other than the classic gap?

    • Reply January 16, 2019

      Varnel Watson

      when was satans fall then? – no other time

    • Reply January 16, 2019

      Robert Franzen

      Troy Day first I would say you’re not starting with the beginning – you’re jumping to events after the beginning- at least in your mind, after vs 1. Lets back up, cuz this is so elementary & so easy to get that a child can read Gen 1 & tell you what it says correctly. Sometimes we can’t see the simple things because we’ve been taught by man something else & that’s all we can see, virtually impossible to see anything else – unless we unlearn or learn other views. I’m not saying you are but you come across like you’re incapable of seeing any other way besides the gap. Yet, the gap theory has so many holes & is one of the most ridiculous & unscriptural theory invented.
      First, we really need a grasp on theology – as in GOD – who He is & His character, His attributes etc. God is perfection & all that comes from Him is perfect. His creation is perfect, it was flawless, & man was His masterpiece of creation. The whole context of Gen 1 is of creation, & ends with His/God’s total satisfaction. No flaws, no corruption, no falls, no evil. Only God’s perfect design – of which, He will be restoring btw.
      The “angel” that fell to become Satan saw all that God had done & observed Adam worshiping God. That cherub got prideful & lusted for that position – it was the position that Satan lusted for – & something had to be created & functioning perfectly in order to be lusted after.
      Our creation story in Genesis must start with perfection! Absolute perfection – what else is there with God?
      One would have to be told & indoctrinated with some other story to mess up a perfect creation context. We are told that Jer. 4:23; Isa. & a couple others refer to a civilization before Adam. And it’s all taken out of context. I can prove every one of em. This is just a small overview, I go into all the details deeply in the book

    • Reply January 16, 2019

      Robert Franzen

      Troy Day I would research the start of the theory. How far back can you trace it? Who was the first person to mention it?
      Let’s start with those questions. Then let’s answer more of yours.

  • Reply January 17, 2019

    Varnel Watson

    Robert Franzen I see the point you are making but it still does NOT answer to the exact time of lucifers fall and this is exactly what we’ve said with Gary Micheal Epping before on this point – the exact timing of the fall cannot be explain without gap theory; never mind if gap theory is true, false, right or wrong – without it one cannot establish when the fall occurred – that’s all we are saying …

    • Reply January 17, 2019

      Robert Franzen

      Troy Day my friend, let me ask then; if God hasn’t told us the “exact” time of the devils fall, why then is it so important to you?
      Does this ? effect ones salvation? Does it effect our power in the Holy Ghost to cast out demons? What, what does it effect?
      Troy, my I say that you have locked yourself in a box – the gap box. If scholars can prove the gap to be false (which many have including myself), all we are left with is a timeframe of the fall, not the exact moment.
      Can you be ok with with not knowing? Can you be ok with not knowing how many angels can dance on he head of a pin?
      If you can, I can share the timeframe, if you can’t, well, something else needs to be worked on that’s far more important than the devils fall.

    • Reply January 17, 2019

      Robert Franzen

      Troy Day an interesting study of two world famous Bible teachers who were the foremost authorities in casting out demons – Derek Prince & Lester Sumrall. These two guys exercised more demons out of people than most, YET they each had a different theology, a different belief of the origins of demons. Two totally different beliefs about this subject. BUT NOTICE THIS: our power doesn’t come from our theology, it comes from our LORD!!!
      We will never have our theology exactly correct; when we get to heaven, we will be so surprise how many things we have missed it on & yet, Abba in His Divine love & mercy worked with us.
      When we receive this revelation & are at peace with being ok with not knowing, then I believe it is ok to dive deeper into these matters – matters that are secondary & put in that secondary place in our hearts.

    • Reply January 17, 2019

      Robert Franzen

      Troy Day P.S. there is still another clue to narrowing down the timing of the devils fall; but our heart issues should be in the right place first. (I can’t pretend to know your heart without being in face to face conversation with you but we need to know just how important this issue is to you).

    • Reply January 17, 2019

      Varnel Watson

      Than you for your many replies I hope it is a copy paste from the book so we can all read it but could pls tell in 1 sentence

      WHEN did exactly the fall of lucifer occur?

    • Reply January 17, 2019

      Rob Franzen

      Troy Day read my “non-copy & past” replies & we can talk

      – but the answer you’re looking is not rocket science – just clear your head of everything you’ve heard & were taught & read Scripture, it’s right there

    • Reply January 17, 2019

      Rob Franzen

      Troy Day Troy Day my friend, let me ask then; if God hasn’t told us the “exact” time of the devils fall, why then is it so important to you?
      Does this question effect ones salvation?
      Does it effect our power in the Holy Ghost to cast out demons? What, what does it effect?
      Troy, my I say that you have locked yourself in a box – the gap box. If scholars can prove the gap to be false (which many have including myself), all we are left with is a timeframe of the fall, not the exact moment.
      Can you be ok with with not knowing? Can you be ok with not knowing how many angels can dance on he head of a pin?
      If you can, I can share the timeframe, if you can’t, well, something else needs to be worked on that’s far more important than the devils fall.

  • Reply January 17, 2019

    Varnel Watson

    Rob Franzen you wrote a lot but did not answer my one question I was hoping your book pin points it – obviously it does not – oh well

    • Reply January 17, 2019

      Rob Franzen

      Troy Day sorry Troy. Exactly what did you get from what I’ve written so far?

    • Reply January 17, 2019

      Varnel Watson

      got enough beating around the bush 🙂

    • Reply January 17, 2019

      Rob Franzen

      Troy Day sooooo, you can ask questions but not answer any?

    • Reply January 17, 2019

      Varnel Watson

      I believe I answered the only question asked thus far and waiting to get the answer so we can go to #2

    • Reply January 17, 2019

      Rob Franzen

      Troy Day ???
      I’ll try a 3rd time:

      Troy my friend, let me ask then; if God hasn’t told us the “exact” time of the devils fall, why then is it so important to you?
      Does this ? effect ones salvation? Does it effect our power in the Holy Ghost to cast out demons? What, what does it effect?
      Troy, my I say that you have locked yourself in a box – the gap box. If scholars can prove the gap to be false (which many have including myself), all we are left with is a timeframe of the fall, not the exact moment.
      Can you be ok with with not knowing? Can you be ok with not knowing how many angels can dance on he head of a pin?
      If you can, I can share the timeframe, if you can’t, well, something else needs to be worked on that’s far more important than the devils fall

    • Reply January 17, 2019

      Varnel Watson

      OK – I already answered this twice. What is important for theology is this – the timing of the fall cannot be explained without Gap Theory. That’s really all I am saying

    • Reply January 17, 2019

      Robert Franzen

      Troy Day ya haven’t answer why it is important to you to know this.
      You haven’t answered if it effected ones salvation.
      You haven’t answered what does it effect.

      Buuuuut we can move on then to theology if ya don’t feel comfortable about those.

      The fall of Satan absolutely CAN be explained without the gap theory.
      The theory is unnecessary.

    • Reply January 17, 2019

      Robert Franzen

      Troy Day you also haven’t answered an earlier question – if you know of any other views or scenarios from others that do answer all 10 questions.

  • Reply January 17, 2019

    Varnel Watson

    moving along 10 THINGS IN THE BIBLE THAT CANNOT BE EXPLAINED WITHOUT THE PRE-ADAMIC RACE GAP THEORY #2. Where the demons come from?

  • Reply January 17, 2019

    Robert Franzen

    I went to the link & read all 10 questions again. Who wrote those questions & posted them before having someone proofread for grammatical corrections. Terrible grammar – gives Christians a bad rap – especially one that is a theological presentation:(

    Anyways, I went thru & answered all 10 in about 10 minutes.

    Should I just copy & past it here?

    • Reply January 18, 2019

      Varnel Watson

      You are our hero Gary Micheal Epping and myself have been waiting for your to come along and give the answer. I will post the individual topics one by one later on just for YOU – you go ahead and answer them all

  • Reply January 20, 2019

    Robert Franzen

    1. Where lost souls come from?
    = According to Scripture, from not receiving Christ as LORD.

    2. Where the demons come from?
    = All we can gather from Scripture is the spirit beings cast out of heaven that rebelled along with Satan i.e. fallen angels/spirit beings.

    3. When did Satan fall from the Heavens?
    = short answer: Scripture does not tell us exactly when, but, all clues point to after creation was finished (including Adam) & sometime before Adam & Eve sinned (clue: first date given in Scripture).

    4. How did 1/3 of the angels fall with Satan?
    = Same as the devil, God casted then out. By siding with the “anointed cherub” (who became Satan), rebelling; & same way & reason Satan was cast out of heaven to the earth. Don’t complicate things.

    5. Why do the Bible tells us TWO creation stories?
    = Liberal theologians tells us Genesis has TWO Creation stories. I believe this is wrong, only ONE creation story. Chapter two is a closer look at the dealings with the masterpiece of creation – man. One creation, One beginning, one flood.

    6. Why was earth created staples and void (this brings to perspective flat earth vs a globe as well)?
    = “staples”??? What is “staples?” Maybe it should read: “without form and void.”
    = Verse 2 is a description of a phase of the earth during the creation of it and it was perfect in its stage, just like an apple tree that is only 2 inches tall – useless to us but still perfect in its stage.
    (Whole chapter in my book to explain this phrase & what it originally means. It is the most misunderstood verse/phrase in the Bible).

    7. Why do the Bible tells us TWO flood narratives?
    = Scripture only describes ONE. Man invented the other fairytale-bad hermeneutics.

    8. Age of earth?
    Scripture only portrays a timeframe of several thousand years. All scholars know this but that does not necessarily mean the earth is young – nor does it rule out a young earth. (Whole other discussion).

    9. The disappearing of the dinosaucers and why where no dinosaucers in Noah’s ark?
    = The great flood of Noah’s day wiped them all out except what Noah took with him. The earths atmosphere was radically uttered after the great flood in Noah’s day, so much so that it could no longer sustain dinosaurs & longevity of life.
    And there were dinosaurs on Noah’s ark (small pink & blue ones. The average size of a Dino was about the size of a sheep).

    10. The whole doctrine of Original sin and its coming into man’s flesh?
    = The only teaching Scripture gives us of the origin of sin AND the origin of death is the Gen. 3 story & the two verses below. To say anything else is going beyond Scripture.
    Imputed righteousness is the only remedy for imputed sin. (Reference, Rom. 5:12; Primary Reference, Rom. 5; cf. Jer. 3:23).

    Romans 5:12
    Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

    1 Corinthians 15:21-22
    For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. [22] For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

    1/16/19

    • Reply January 21, 2019

      Gary Micheal Epping

      WRONG ON EVERY POINT! SCORE OF 0, BUT A 1/2 POINT FOR A GOOD TRY. EVALUATION BELOW IN CAPS.
      1. Where lost souls come from?
      = According to Scripture, from not receiving Christ as LORD. = WRONG. TRUE IN NT. NOT TRUE IN OT OR BEFORE CREATION.

      2. Where the demons come from?
      = All we can gather from Scripture is the spirit beings cast out of heaven that rebelled along with Satan i.e. fallen angels/spirit beings. = WRONG. ANGELS NEVER HAD A PHYSICAL BODY TO BE DISEMBODIED FROM. HAD A SPIRITUAL BODY, WITH NO NEED TO POSSESS A HUMAN BODY.

      3. When did Satan fall from the Heavens?
      = short answer: Scripture does not tell us exactly when, but, all clues point to after creation was finished (including Adam) & sometime before Adam & Eve sinned (clue: first date given in Scripture).
      = WRONG. THERE WOULD BE NO NEED FOR THE CREATION OF ANGELS AFTER THE 7 DAYS, WHEN GOD CREATED HIS NEW CREATION, MAN, TO REPLACE THE FALLEN ANGELS FROM THE PREVIOUS ERA.

      4. How did 1/3 of the angels fall with Satan?
      = Same as the devil, God casted then out. By siding with the “anointed cherub” (who became Satan), rebelling; & same way & reason Satan was cast out of heaven to the earth. Don’t complicate things.
      =RIGHT. BUT, NO POINTS BECAUSE OTHER ANGELS WERE FROM A PREVIOUS ERA NOT AFTER CREATION.

      5. Why do the Bible tells us TWO creation stories?
      = Liberal theologians tells us Genesis has TWO Creation stories. I believe this is wrong, only ONE creation story. Chapter two is a closer look at the dealings with the masterpiece of creation – man. One creation, One beginning, one flood.
      =WRONG. ONE ORIGINAL CREATION PRIOR TO GEN 1:2, ONE RECREATION BEGININING IN 1:3, AND A A SECOND RECREATION AFTER THE WHITE THRONE JUDGMENT.

      6. Why was earth created staples and void (this brings to perspective flat earth vs a globe as well)?
      = “staples”??? What is “staples?” Maybe it should read: “without form and void.”
      = Verse 2 is a description of a phase of the earth during the creation of it and it was perfect in its stage, just like an apple tree that is only 2 inches tall – useless to us but still perfect in its stage.
      (Whole chapter in my book to explain this phrase & what it originally means. It is the most misunderstood verse/phrase in the Bible).
      =WRONG. VERSE 1:2 IS NOT A PHASE OF CREATING SOMETHING (THE UNIVERSE) FROM NOTHING, BUT IS BUILDING ON SOMETHING , THE FACE OF THE EARTH, THAT IS ALREADY IN PLACE.

      7. Why do the Bible tells us TWO flood narratives?
      = Scripture only describes ONE. Man invented the other fairytale-bad hermeneutics.
      =WRONG. VERSE 1:2 SAYS ON THE FACE OF THE WATERS. NO WAY FOR WATER TO COVER THE EARTH EXCEPT FOR A FLOOD.

      8. Age of earth?
      Scripture only portrays a timeframe of several thousand years. All scholars know this but that does not necessarily mean the earth is young – nor does it rule out a young earth. (Whole other discussion).
      =WRONG. IF EART IS NOT YOUNG, THEN IT IS OLD AND HAD A HABITATION IN THE TIME BEFORE 1:2. CAN’T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS.

      9. The disappearing of the dinosaucers and why where no dinosaucers in Noah’s ark?
      = The great flood of Noah’s day wiped them all out except what Noah took with him. The earths atmosphere was radically uttered after the great flood in Noah’s day, so much so that it could no longer sustain dinosaurs & longevity of life.
      And there were dinosaurs on Noah’s ark (small pink & blue ones. The average size of a Dino was about the size of a sheep). =WRONG. GOD TOOK 2 OF EACH KIND. IF THERE WERE DINOSSAURS THEN T REX WOULD HAVE BEEN ABOARD AND ATE A GOOD PORTION OF THE OTHER ANIMALS. BUT, WRONG BECAUSE THEY WERE DESTROYED IN THE FIRST PRE ADAMITE FLOOD.

      10. The whole doctrine of Original sin and its coming into man’s flesh?
      = The only teaching Scripture gives us of the origin of sin AND the origin of death is the Gen. 3 story & the two verses below. To say anything else is going beyond Scripture.
      Imputed righteousness is the only remedy for imputed sin. (Reference, Rom. 5:12; Primary Reference, Rom. 5; cf. Jer. 3:23).

      Romans 5:12
      Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

      1 Corinthians 15:21-22
      For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. [22] For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
      =WRONG. THE BIBLE SAYS THAT LUCIFER SINNED FIRST, AND WAS THERE IN THE GARDEN TO PASS IT ON TO MANKIND.

    • Reply January 21, 2019

      Robert Franzen

      Gary Micheal Epping Alright lets get back to the gap theory ?????

    • Reply January 21, 2019

      Robert Franzen

      Gary Micheal Epping, lets talk about it. What support is there for a gap of time in Genesis 1?

    • Reply January 21, 2019

      Gary Micheal Epping

      Okay, let’s start slow with one verse. GEN 1:1 could be used for a young earth or an old earth viewpoint: “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.” At some point in eternity, God with his spoken Word created the the entire universe from nothing; something came into being that did not previously exist because God spoke it into existence. Before that point, there was God, no universe, and likely the angels. It would seem that since the angels were singing and rejoicing as the cornerstones were laid, a case can be made that the angels were created at some point prior to the creation of the universe. That is what I get from verse 1.

    • Reply January 22, 2019

      Robert Franzen

      Gary Micheal Epping , Good overview Gary. I like it. I would agree with all that, but there’s some more questions that need to be answered with verse 1.

      Verse 1 is either an Independent clause or a Dependent clause.

      If it is an Independent clause it would cause vs 2 to be interpreted “and the earth was,” or “but the earth was …” or “now the earth was …”

      If it is a Dependent clause, Dependent on what?
      And it would cause vs 2 to be interpreted, “WHEN the the earth came into existence it was …”

      Either way is grammatically correct & some translations do it; but leads to two totally different outcomes.

      Which would you opt for?

  • Reply January 20, 2019

    Varnel Watson

    may wanna rethink the phrase in terms of the OP

    • Reply January 20, 2019

      Rob Franzen

      Troy Day 1. Where lost souls come from?
      = According to Scripture, from not receiving Christ as LORD.

      2. Where the demons come from?
      = All we can gather from Scripture is the spirit beings cast out of heaven that rebelled along with Satan i.e. fallen angels/spirit beings.

      3. When did Satan fall from the Heavens?
      = short answer: Scripture does not tell us exactly when, but, all clues point to after creation was finished (including Adam) & sometime before Adam & Eve sinned (clue: first date given in Scripture).

      4. How did 1/3 of the angels fall with Satan?
      = Same as the devil, God casted then out. By siding with the “anointed cherub” (who became Satan), rebelling; & same way & reason Satan was cast out of heaven to the earth. Don’t complicate things.

      5. Why do the Bible tells us TWO creation stories?
      = Liberal theologians tells us Genesis has TWO Creation stories. I believe this is wrong, only ONE creation story. Chapter two is a closer look at the dealings with the masterpiece of creation – man. One creation, One beginning, one flood.

      6. Why was earth created staples and void (this brings to perspective flat earth vs a globe as well)?
      = “staples”??? What is “staples?” Maybe it should read: “without form and void.”
      = Verse 2 is a description of a phase of the earth during the creation of it and it was perfect in its stage, just like an apple tree that is only 2 inches tall – useless to us but still perfect in its stage.
      (Whole chapter in my book to explain this phrase & what it originally means. It is the most misunderstood verse/phrase in the Bible).

      7. Why do the Bible tells us TWO flood narratives?
      = Scripture only describes ONE. Man invented the other fairytale-bad hermeneutics.

      8. Age of earth?
      Scripture only portrays a timeframe of several thousand years. All scholars know this but that does not necessarily mean the earth is young – nor does it rule out a young earth. (Whole other discussion).

      9. The disappearing of the dinosaucers and why where no dinosaucers in Noah’s ark?
      = The great flood of Noah’s day wiped them all out except what Noah took with him. The earths atmosphere was radically uttered after the great flood in Noah’s day, so much so that it could no longer sustain dinosaurs & longevity of life.
      And there were dinosaurs on Noah’s ark (small pink & blue ones. The average size of a Dino was about the size of a sheep).

      10. The whole doctrine of Original sin and its coming into man’s flesh?
      = The only teaching Scripture gives us of the origin of sin AND the origin of death is the Gen. 3 story & the two verses below. To say anything else is going beyond Scripture.
      Imputed righteousness is the only remedy for imputed sin. (Reference, Rom. 5:12; Primary Reference, Rom. 5; cf. Jer. 3:23).

      Romans 5:12
      Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

      1 Corinthians 15:21-22
      For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. [22] For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

      1/16/19

    • Reply January 20, 2019

      Rob Franzen

      Troy Day I answered every question without the gap. And violated no Scriptural contexts – many scholars & theologians & whole denominations agree.

      I didn’t say you’d agree with it cuz you have your mind made up. But you cannot say it cannot be done. You can deny the green wall is green all you want but that doesn’t change reality- it can be & has been done.

    • Reply January 21, 2019

      Varnel Watson

      Seems like you gave up and left the group Oh well – not the first one who has tried to no avail

  • Reply January 21, 2019

    Steve Losee

    LOL!

  • Reply January 22, 2019

    Gary Micheal Epping

    Robert Franzen Let’s cut the mental gymnastics. If you don’t believe that the bible was inspired by God in both its initial writing by Moses and translation into English, then there is no sense in going any further. it is best to stay with the authorized english translation, KJV, or maybe the NKJV or NIV to avoid attempts to change or manipulate the meaning in later translations. i believe the bible should be taken literally according to what it says. Otherwise, a person can manipulate and massage new translations to fit their own point of view and render the true meaning of the bible useless.. Verse 1 has traditionally been viewed, overwhealmingly, as as an independent clause. “THE TRADITIONAL UNDERSTANDING OF GENESIS 1:1 IS GRAMMATICALLY EASY, AND THE MOST BASIC PRINCIPLE FOR UNDERSTANDING ANY LANGUAGE IS TO FOLLOW THE EASE OF THE GRAMMAR.’ The dependent-clause understanding of Genesis 1:1 is not grammatically easy; it is difficult and awkward, thus rendering it incorrect.. Nearly all reputable bible scholars believe the traditional understanding of Genesis 1:1 is trustworthy. In the absolute beginning God did indeed created the heavens and earth out of nothing. The only people I have ever seen that what to view verse 1 as a dependent clause are those want to devalue or invalidate verse 2, which is also an independent clause.

    • Reply January 22, 2019

      Gary Micheal Epping

      Even atheistic scientists must reluctantly agree that there was a beginning point for the universe. Stephen Hawking stated, “Any reasonable model of the universe must start with a singularity. This would mean that science could predict that the universe must have had a beginning, but that it could not predict how the universe should begin: for that one would have to appeal to God.” (http://www.hawking.org.uk/the-origin-of-the-universe.html).

    • Reply January 22, 2019

      Varnel Watson

      after his comment on foolish Bible translations I am starting to wonder the same thing

    • Reply January 22, 2019

      Robert Franzen

      Gary Micheal Epping how did we jump to if Scripture is inspired by God, of course it is.
      To determine whether it’s an Independent Dependent is vital: I needed to know where you stand so I know if we can go on, there’s no mental gymnastics, if ya don’t know, ya don’t know. That’s why we’re here.
      But You are correct in saying that the Independent clause is the traditional way & I believe is the correct way.
      The Dependent clause came much later, I thinks it was first found in Rashi’s commentary on Genesis.1 Rashi was a Jewish rabbi who lived between 1040 and 1105 A.D
      So looks like we’re on the same page (until later) when it comes to vs 1 so far.
      Verse two has 3 clauses in it. But before we go there; the gap theory teaches that there was a race of humanoids of some sort living before vs 2. Do you believe that?

    • Reply January 22, 2019

      Gary Micheal Epping

      We are not ready for verse 2 yet. Do you agree that verse 1 is speaking about God creating the universe from nothing? Also, do you believe that the angels were there watching God create the heavens and earth, as described in Job, and were probably created around the time God made his heavenly abode. No need for your complete statement of faith, as i never questioned your faith nor your standing as a Christian. You make it very clear that you believe the bible is the inspired word of God. I am assuming that that applies to the translated authorized english version too, not just the Hebrew and Greek. As a side note: I think that verse 1 is one of the most magnificent statements in the bible, revealing God’s power and ability to bring Creation into existence.

  • Reply January 22, 2019

    Robert Franzen

    Maybe I should post some of my statement of faith? Here’s the brief version (I have an Amplified version too):

    The Sacredness & Sovereignty of Scripture:
    We believe the Scriptures (Old & New Testaments) to be the inspired Word of God as originally given, and that they are a revelation of God to mankind and His will for mankind. We believe in the absolute truth and authority of the entire canon of Scriptures to govern the affairs of humanity, in belief, faith, and conduct. II Tim. 3:15-17; II Pet. 1:19-21; Ps. 119:160; Prov. 30:5-6; ICor.2:13; I Thess. 2:13.

  • Reply January 22, 2019

    Varnel Watson

    Robert Franzen for this topic you should post answers to the questions from your book – if you have them of course

    • Reply January 22, 2019

      Gary Micheal Epping

      Would it be possible to put his book on the Pentecostal Theology website? Since he says the book refutes all ten points, we could read for ourselves, and then make comments. Don’t know if Robert would be willing to do that or not.

    • Reply January 22, 2019

      Varnel Watson

      Dont see a problem if its published under creative commons as public domain resp. under such (c) notice

  • Reply February 29, 2020

    Varnel Watson

    hey Pete Fiske is this something you still concern with OR doing research and your blogs posts on?

  • Reply February 29, 2020

    Pete Fiske

    There never was [https://creation.com/pre-adamic-man-were-there-human-beings-on-earth-before-adam] a supposed pre-Adamite race. That’s just so much unbiblical Genesis compromise mythology. And why? To placate the memory of a false prophet, Finis Jennings Dake.

  • Reply February 29, 2020

    Varnel Watson

    Pete Fiske IDK that what you are saying is true What is the source? .Does it seem credible?

    • Reply February 29, 2020

      Pete Fiske

      Troy Day, the Hebrew phrase “tohu vav bohu” is in the disjunctive form, meaning a creative process being initiated by God on Day 1 of Creation Week. Genesis 1:2 begins with the Hebrew waw [vav] which can mean ‘and’, ‘now’, ‘but’, ‘then’, etc. Wherever vav precedes a noun (as in v.2 vav ‘and’ + erets ‘the earth’) it has the meaning of an explanation (called a vav disjunctive or vav explicativum, i.e. explanatory vav). It is not a sequence of events such as ‘then the earth became’ (which would require a vav consecutive, where vav precedes a verb). It compares with the old English expression ‘to wit’; it could be translated by ‘Now’ or even with the use of parentheses as follows: ‘In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth (the earth was without form and empty …).’ Moses used the two vav constructions very deliberately in Genesis 1. Verse 2 has the only vav disjunctive. All 28 other verses beginning with ‘And’ have the vav consecutive.

      For further clarification of the misunderstanding surrounding the supposed Genesis proclamation of the Gap heresy, see the excellent debate between Dr Douglas Hamp vs. Gappist S. Douglas Woodward…

      https://youtu.be/WhkPBXsM9K4

  • Reply February 29, 2020

    Thomas Henry Jr.

    There could never be a pre-adamic race. The order of creation in Genesis does not make room for it. Each day — something happened that explains life as we know it.

    This pre-adamic race theory also fuels racism.

  • Reply February 29, 2020

    Thomas Henry Jr.

    These ten are easily proven

  • Reply February 29, 2020

    Thomas Henry Jr.

    Age of Earth? The earth is created with age built in like Adam and Eve. Like Plants were created with fruits already.

    I have a chart of the 7 days that explains creation apart from the false gap theory

    • Reply February 29, 2020

      James Michael Sanders

      Thomas Henry Jr. do you have a way to share that chart with me brother I would love to see it.

      Yes I fully agree with the clear 7day creation as told in the Bible. All that other speculation mess is for the unbelievers, not I ?

    • Reply February 29, 2020

      Varnel Watson

      James Michael Sanders 7 days 24hrs each

    • Reply February 29, 2020

      James Michael Sanders

      Troy Day I would be speculating to say how many hrs. But yes I believe 7 days with a sunrise and set so to speak. I believe it was Gods order that we see today, and was inspired by God and explained by men for men.

      Adding speculation isn’t needed for me.

    • Reply February 29, 2020

      Pete Fiske

      Troy Day, haven’t you read Genesis 1:1-31 (in some other, real Bible not the pretend Dake Annotated Bible with the gaggle of Dake’s incoherent commentary notes)?

    • Reply February 29, 2020

      Pete Fiske

      James Michael Sanders, Exodus 20:11… https://creation.com/creation-week-in-stone

    • Reply March 1, 2020

      Varnel Watson

      Pete Fiske do you agree with him the earth was created with AGE ie young vs old earth IF SO this proves gap theory explanation Why was earth created shapeless and void (this brings to perspective flat earth vs a globe as well)?

      That phrase TOHU va BOHU is in the real Hebrew BIBLE you know – can you explain it and why is being used there without GAP theory? Gary Micheal Epping Isara Mo

  • Reply February 29, 2020

    Tara

    I am not kidddig , I got the answers for alll of this questions , it is written inside the Bible and some revelation , everything is in the Bible but now dayas we hardly can find all the correct letters and the words in the Bible. telling the truth , I have nothing to loose anymore ministrywise because I have given to God’s hand 3 years ago .

    If I told you all Jesus is comming soon and I know the exataly day you all will tell me I have lost my mind , and it is written in the Bible . #tarabeing

  • Reply February 29, 2020

    Varnel Watson

    James Michael Sanders hence we examine the subject theologically with NO speculation How else to explain the fall of the worldS with NO gap theory ?

    • Reply February 29, 2020

      James Michael Sanders

      Troy Day the Word explains it. He/God told us exactly what happened. ?

    • Reply February 29, 2020

      Varnel Watson

      James Michael Sanders sure did Especially when using

      became instead of was
      and tohy va bohu for the original creation 🙂

      There is absolutely NO doubt when one reads Gen 1 in the original Hebr. that there is a GAP A.J. Bible

    • Reply February 29, 2020

      Pete Fiske

      What *original creation*
      Troy Day ? There’s no such beast to be found anywhere in the 66 books of the Bible, except in the heretical imaginations of Gappist Genesis Compromisers.

    • Reply March 1, 2020

      Varnel Watson

      Pete Fiske I think it was Gary Micheal Epping who explained this best for you before in the following way

      If Lucifer was created during the 6 days, he would not have got to use “thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.” (EX 28:13-14). Why give him musical talent so he could worship God, if he was to be cast out quickly before he could use them? Also Lucifer was also the “anointed cherub that covereth” in that same passage, which is was one the highest ranking angels. They were used for protection , and another one guarded the Garden of Eden after Adam and Eve were expelled (Gen 3:24). Lucifer was used to guard the throne of God in an earlier time, and later to protect and oversee Eden before the earth was laid waste. He was made to serve God inn heaven which lasted a long long time, maybe as long as 15-20 billion years. Isara Mo

  • Reply May 19, 2020

    Kimberley Johns

    Please don’t hold all Pentes responsible. Just sayin’

    • Reply May 19, 2020

      Varnel Watson

      not sure what you mean – terms not clear again

    • Reply May 19, 2020

      Craig Danner

      I’ve read about that a little, it is interesting

  • Reply May 19, 2020

    Brontë Hauptmann

    I had an email exchange with Dr. Kenneth Miller the main purveyor of the gene splicing argument on this very topic a few years back. He brought up a case involving a chinese man who had 44 chromosomes as further proof that the number of chromosomes is changeable. I asked him whether the Chinese man was sterile or not. I never heard from Dr. Miller again. He also tried to defend his position by claiming to be Catholic.

  • Reply May 19, 2020

    Varnel Watson

    I don’t feel like arguing with atheists or ungodly ppl tonight. And frankly, I don’t really care how old the earth is. The Bible indicates 6-10 thousand yrs old. Carbon dating is proven to be a fraud. And the earth ain’t flat either, you bone heads! Lol..

  • Reply June 12, 2020

    Hingano Kaitu'u

    Gap theory? Again!

  • Reply June 12, 2020

    Varnel Watson

    Gary Micheal Epping Larry Dale Steele As I’ve been telling Robert Cox this word aint ready for old cowboy theology 🙂

  • Reply June 12, 2020

    David Thomas

    Why do those things need explanations? Isn’t the clarity provided by Scripture enough without having to build a complex speculative theory?

    • Reply June 12, 2020

      Hingano Kaitu'u

      David Thomas exactly

    • Reply June 12, 2020

      Varnel Watson

      is this not APOLOGETIC grou? do we not EXPLAIN all things faith in here Guess you didnt even read the 10 things

    • Reply June 12, 2020

      David Thomas

      Troy Day Things like the origin and fall of demons? God did not elaborate on that, so we don’t need to know.

    • Reply June 12, 2020

      Varnel Watson

      David Thomas really? Than whats Peter talking about Jesus preaching to them and Jude etc. Again we are just talking here but you are not proving where lost souls came from with NO gap theory ? PLUS 9 more

    • Reply June 12, 2020

      David Thomas

      Troy Day They mention it but that’s not an authorization to come up with random ideas. I have no idea what lost souls you are taking about

    • Reply June 12, 2020

      Duane Wallenstein

      Yes, David Thomas, this article really does read like something a very new believer might put together (no insult intended to anyone). Rather than asking the questions, then sitting back in their chair waiting for one of the countless Facebook professors to “prove me wrong,” the author could simply make a brief study of each issue to get the answers they’re looking for.

  • Reply June 12, 2020

    Jeffry Diaz Abitan

    Biblical writers especially NT are not familiar with this gap theory. When they mentioned the first sin they refer to Adam and Eve, When they refer to a great flood they meant Noah, not the pre-Adamic one. When they are talking about future destruction they say second not third.

    • Reply June 12, 2020

      Varnel Watson

      blah blah common talk Pls read the 10 things and prove them without But first read Peter and Paul writing about the energies melting the foundations of the earth The Gospel writers on the FALL of the worldS And John on the words of Jesus about Satan falling My coffee aint getting hotter

  • Reply June 12, 2020

    Hingano Kaitu'u

    Revelation: and the first heaven pass away not second heaven

    • Reply June 12, 2020

      Varnel Watson

      Gap theory talks of a first earth under the same heaven which produced Satans flood and then Noahs flood You may want to read some on actual gap theory What about WHEN JESUS in the Gospels says since the fall of the worldS ?

    • Reply June 12, 2020

      Hingano Kaitu'u

      Same heaven? Really? Isn’t the first one ruined and destroyed and remade? Still count as one? Jesus referring to the fall of Adam nothing more nothing less

    • Reply June 12, 2020

      Varnel Watson

      Hingano Kaitu’u so you are STILL NOT explaining this 10 things – means you aint got the clue

  • Reply June 12, 2020

    Varnel Watson

    hey David Thomas you look like a thinking guy and I am NOT calling you out with this BUT I’d like to discuss it Perhaps you can give me something I am missing on this one like Gary Micheal Epping has done it many times to some avail

    • Reply June 12, 2020

      David Thomas

      My deal is that the Gap Theory is already an argument from silence, reading “the earth was without form and void” as “the earth became without form and void.” Taking other passages from other contexts and combining them together to insert a pre-Adamic race just makes the case even shakier. Most importantly, the overall biblical narrative is redemption of fallen humanity in Christ. How would an extra, pre-Adam humanity that will never be redeemed fit into Paul’s discussion of the two humanities in Romans 5?

  • Reply June 12, 2020

    Jacob Burbidge

    Even as someone who believes in a gap-functional interpretation of Genesis, this article is a mess

  • Reply June 12, 2020

    Duane Wallenstein

    The secret things belong unto the Lord our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law – Deuteronomy 29:29

    https://bible.com/bible/1/deu.29.29.KJV

    Anything pre-Adamic is in the domain of those “secret things.” What God doesn’t mention in His Word, we need not be concerned about. We Christ-followers can always ask Him these things when we get there ☝️. But by then, I imagine these issues may not be all that important

  • Where can one read up on the “pre-adamic” race?

  • Reply June 12, 2020

    Alvin Adora

    How can Eve be the mother of all living if there were pre adamic race?

    The man called his wife’s name Eve, because she was the mother of all living. (Genesis 3:20, ESV)

    • Reply June 12, 2020

      Varnel Watson

      good question – have you read hebrew mythology on Adam having another wife and so on?

    • Reply June 12, 2020

      Alvin Adora

      Troy Day yes sir I’m aware with that mythology about “Lilith”.

  • Reply June 12, 2020

    John Carson

    For the pre-Adamic race gap theory to be true it necessitates the theory of Evolution to be true.

    1 Corinthians 15:45, “So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.”

    Adam was the first man. To force the thought of Evolution into holy writ is to answer contrary to the Scriptures of whether Adam was the first. Death would have been known to Adam prior to the Fall as he would have seen the carcasses of his fallen ancestors prior to that curse of death entering into the world.

    • Reply June 12, 2020

      Varnel Watson

      why are you arguing something you dont understand ? JUST explain the 10 things without it and you can prove it WRONG

    • Reply June 12, 2020

      John Carson

      Troy Day, who are you to tell a person you don’t even know what he does and does not understand? You don’t know me from Adam (or Lucy, if you wish to go further back)

    • Reply June 12, 2020

      John Carson

      The “10 points” perhaps should be re-titled, “10 reasons Scripture is authoritative”. These are typical types of argumentations where the Bible’s accuracy is tested and measured through the lenses of any information that can “disprove” it as being reliable.

      For example: If someome were to say, “Dinosaurs were not on the Ark, therefore the flood narrative in the Bible is false”…. then to “prove” this Scripturally, one will need to show in Scripture where such a statement is true. However, none can be found. This means the person must use information within parametres that are extrabiblical and then move toward what they believe to be scientifically and historically verifiable. So were there dinosaurs on the Ark? Those measuring this through the lens of the theory of Evolution, then their answer is, no. Those who measure this through the lens of creation science and Biblical information, then their answer is, yes.

      The choice is whether a person wishes to believe the Bible, or not. If they wish not to believe the Bible as accurate, then any theory that tickles their ears will do.

      Most often there’s a severe lack of both Bible knowledge and lack of understanding of historical science from the person wishing to outsmart God’s Word. The “10 points” only points to the naive trying to turn people’s hearts away from trusting in His holy Word.

  • Reply June 12, 2020

    Richie Porter

    I know hollywood uses a lot of their material from the bible, could avatar or future movies implement this theme?

    • Reply June 12, 2020

      Varnel Watson

      are all future sins forgiven ?

    • Reply June 12, 2020

      Richie Porter

      Troy Day Hebrews 1:3
      Atonement from alpha to omega

  • Reply June 12, 2020

    Karen Hayes

    Nonsense! God is clear that the FIRST Man was ADAM.

    • Reply June 12, 2020

      Varnel Watson

      where is that clear to you in the BIBLE – pls explain WHY GOD tells the FIRST man to REplanish earth instead of just planish? Gary Micheal Epping

    • Reply June 12, 2020

      Luis Cofresi Jr.

      An examination of the Oxford English Dictionary (OED) shows that the word was used to mean ‘fill’ from the thirteenth to the seventeenth centuries. In no case quoted in these five centuries does it unambiguously mean ‘re-fill’. The OED defines ‘replenish’ as having 10 meanings throughout its history:

      Replenished (adjective):

      fully stocked; provided, supplied;

      filled, pervaded;

      physically or materially filled;

      full, made full.

      To replenish:

      make full, fill, stock with, as in: ‘This man made the Newe Forest, and replenyshed it with wylde bestes’ (AD1494);

      inhabit, settle, occupy the whole of;

      fill with food, satiate;

      fill (space) with; fill (heart) with (a feeling);

      fill up again; fill up (a vacant office) (AD1632);

      become full, attain to fullness.

      Note that only ‘i’ includes the idea ‘again’. This use first appears in a poem in 1612. It appears again in Pepys’ Diary, where he says: ‘buy … to replenish the stores’. Only the year 1612 is anywhere near the date of the KJV (1611), and it’s a poetic use. The Hebrew original of Genesis 1:28 (KJV) is not poetic. All other uses range from the seventeenth to the nineteenth century, when it tends to die out in normal writing.

      ….
      ..

      The word translated ‘replenish’ (KJV) simply means ‘fill’ in the Hebrew.

      In the English of King James’ day, ‘replenish’ also usually meant ‘fill’, not ‘refill’.

      The word ‘replenish’ therefore cannot be used to support ideas about a previous creation, which was destroyed. In any case, such erroneous theories, invented in response to the ‘millions of years’ idea, must hold to the unbiblical notion that there was death and suffering before Adam’s sin.

  • Reply June 12, 2020

    Dominic Polverino

    If the Bible says Adam was the first
    man, then Adam was the first man. Enough said??‍♂️

    • Reply June 12, 2020

      Varnel Watson

      verse for that pls and sooner pls

    • Reply June 12, 2020

      Dominic Polverino

      Troy Day Genesis

    • Reply June 12, 2020

      Dominic Polverino

      The idea that some thing extra biblical happened between Genesis one and Genesis two is not really supported in scripture

  • Reply June 12, 2020

    Darius Capers

    Whatever can’t be explained is not intended to be explained.
    The divine author (the Holy Spirit) has revealed and given everything He deems we need to know.
    It’s called the economy of narrative.
    IF you need to go to extra biblical sources or theories that aren’t biblical it all becomes speculative.
    If it’s not in scriptures you don’t really need to know.
    The Spirit has given you all He wants you to have.
    And frankly, it’s more than enough.

  • Reply June 12, 2020

    Stephen Zhao

    Thanks be to God. I would greatly appreciate it if someone share the biblical text here where another flood narratives in Bible regarding with #7? (Why do the Bible tells us TWO flood narratives?) Thank you in advance,

    • Pls read the book of friedman in title who wrote the bible bec the explanation of two narrative of flood can be explain

    • The two group of scribe that wrote the narrative was combined by the reductor

  • Reply June 12, 2020

    Jay Zeke Malakai

    I was expecting an empty article. Turns out, it’s not empty. It legitimately posts 10 things the author thinks can’t be explained unless God lied about Adam being the first man created on day 6 of creation. It’s sad. If only the Church would trust God more.

    • Reply June 12, 2020

      Varnel Watson

      So now you have a SOLID theological article in return to your low expectations WHY dont you just explain the 10 things without GAP theory and be done with it? Can you NOT do it – it’s not that hard for a starter theologian

    • Reply June 12, 2020

      Jay Zeke Malakai

      Troy Day SOLID THEOLOGICAL ARTICLE? ???That’s hilarious, Troy. My “low” expectation was actually a high one. I was hoping no one would be stupid enough to think there are 10 reasons to believe in a pre-Adamic race, so I was hoping it was a satire. Alas, human stupidity disappointed me again. There’s nothing solid in this piece of trash. Half of the questions don’t even make sense, and none of them in any way show that there must have been a pre-Adamic race. Let’s have a look:

      “1. Where lost souls come from?”

      There are like 20 different ways you could interpret “lost souls”, so how can I even begin to answer this?

      “2. Where the demons come from?”

      They were created in Heaven, and they sang for joy as the Earth was created (Job 38:7). How does this require a pre-Adamic race?

      “3. When did Satan fall from the Heavens?”

      Good question, not even remotely relevant to the pre-Adamic race. People have been debating this topic for centuries. Christians didn’t believe in a pre-Adamic race before Charles Lyell started lying about the age of the Earth.

      “4. How did 1/3 of the angels fall with Satan?”

      Because they chose to join him… How does this require a pre-Adamic race?

      “5. Why do the Bible tells us TWO creation stories?”

      It doesn’t. It tells us one in Genesis 1, then Genesis 2 zooms in on day 6. When Jesus discusses divorce in Matthew 19 and Mark 10, He tells us the people in Genesis 1 and 2 are the same story. If you say there is a pre-Adamic race, you are saying Jesus is a liar. This is one of the things you can only explain if Adam was the first man.

      “6. Why was earth created shapeless and void (this brings to perspective flat earth vs a globe as well)?”

      The earth started shapeless and void for the same reason everything started shapeless and void. Why did my house start as pallets of bricks? This has nothing to do with the shape of the earth, either. God started His work, God finished His work, the end was not the same as the beginning. Again, where is the pre-Adamic race in this? Do you think humans could survive in a shapeless and void Earth? You try breathing when there’s no oxygen.

      “7. Why do the Bible tells us TWO flood narratives?”

      Where is the second? All I see is one in Genesis 6-9, then Peter tells us people who deny this are deliberately ignorant (2 Peter 3:1-9). Basically, by denying the flood, you’re proving you’re a heretic.

      “8. Age of earth?”

      6,000 years, approximately. Adam, whom Jesus tells us married Eve at the beginning of creation, was created on day 6. Following genealogies, we see that the time between Adam (whom Paul tells us is the FIRST man) and Jesus is about 4,000 years. Jesus lived about 2,000 years ago. 2,000 years + 4,000 years + 6 days = about 6,000 years. There wasn’t even enough time for a pre-Adamic race to have existed before Adam, so how can you possibly say the age of the earth can’t be explained without one?

      “9. The disappearing of the dinosaurs and why where no dinosaurs in Noah’s ark?”

      Three problems here. First, non sequitor. What do dinosaurs have to do with a pre-Adamic race? Second, it’s a loaded question. How do you know there were no dinosaurs on Noah’s ark? I don’t know about you, but I haven’t seen his cargo manifest. Third, animals go extinct ALL THE TIME. Current estimates are that between 200 and 2,000 species go extinct every year. We’re losing them all the time. The last dodo was sighted in 1662. The last tasmanian tiger died in 1936. We’re still trying to save tigers, rhinos, and others. Reasons for extinction include climate change, overhunting by man, disease, and low availability of adequate food sources. Ecosystems are extremely delicate, and unfortunately, it seems the dinosaurs couldn’t find their niche, so they died out.

      “10. The whole doctrine of Original sin and its coming into man’s flesh?”

      This is why Adam is required. If we are all descended from Adam, we can inherit his sin. If we’re not, where does it come from? No Adam, no original sin. Even atheists know this, so it’s embarassing how many Christians don’t.

      So tell me, Troy, what is there that can’t be explained without a pre-Adamic race? Your pre-Adamic race DIDN’T exist. It is yet another lie from the pit of Hell, designed to draw people away from God. Repent of it, learn your Bible, start preaching the truth.

    • We should first learn how the bible is written a big help when you try to read the book of elliot friedman in the book title who wrote the bible

    • Reply June 12, 2020

      Eugin Robinson

      Jay Zeke Malakai do you BELIEVE that earth is just 6000 years old, common.

    • Reply June 12, 2020

      Robert Jarvis

      Jay Zeke Malakai where does God say Adam was the first man created?

    • Reply June 12, 2020

      Jay Zeke Malakai

      Eugin Robinson yes, I believe the earth is around 6,000 years old.

    • Reply June 12, 2020

      Jay Zeke Malakai

      Robert Jarvis 1 Corinthians 15:45

    • Reply June 12, 2020

      Robert Jarvis

      Jay Zeke Malakai you mean where it says ” first man Adam” ? Do you think it meant literally? Cause then we would have to say Jesus was the ” last man” wouldn’t we? Cause it says that too. Or maybe it wasn’t meant like that , but as Adams status as the first man WITH A SPIRIT, and is the father of all those WITH A SPIRIT- cause having a SPIRIT is what distinguish Ed him above all other creatures right?

    • Reply June 12, 2020

      Jay Zeke Malakai

      Yes, I do think, as did the entire Church for the first 1,700 years, that it means literally. It explicitly says “the first man Adam”, and it nowhere says the first man with a spirit. Where are you finding that phrase? It’s not in there. Neither is the phrase “Jesus is the last man”. It says He is the last Adam. That in no way contradicts the fact that Adam, whom it explicitly says was the first man, was indeed the first man, especially since we see Adam’s creation, from dirt (not from a monkey) in Genesis 1 and 2, on day 6, where he was alone according to Genesis 2:18, which is why his wife, Eve, the “mother of all the living” (Genesis 3:20) was created. Furthermore, in Christ’s genealogy, Adam is the son of God. My interpretation is consistent with all of scripture. Yours requires a fair few words to be changed.

      I also want to point out the horribly racist implications of your interpretation. According to you, Adam was the first man with a spirit, yet biologically, his parents would be almost identical to him. That’s just how reproduction works. People make baby people. So, there must be people without spirits in your worldview. So maybe the Evolutionists you’re borrowing from were right when they killed and kidnapped black people and put them in zoos in the 19th century. Or maybe we can just let the Bible speak: God has made from one blood ALL the nations (Acts 17:26), because we are all descended from one man, and one woman. The only reason there is a last Adam is because there is a first. Anything else is heresy.

    • Reply June 12, 2020

      Robert Jarvis

      Jay Zeke Malakai wow! You sound pretty zealous- but how did you manage to bring in racism? More later

    • Reply June 12, 2020

      Jay Zeke Malakai

      My God cared enough about me to nail His Son to a cross so I can have eternal life. Yeah, I’m zealous for His word.

      How did I bring in racism to a discussion about RACE? How do you think? It’s the logical implication of your view. If we are, as the Bible says, of one blood, then there can be no racism, but if Adam is distinct spiritually from pre-Adamites, yet not biologically, then some races can be superior to others.

  • Reply June 12, 2020

    Yehoshua Marion

    This is among the most ridiculous things I have read in my lifetime.
    I am pretty sure this article comes from the creator of SpongeBob.
    note to editor “please read the Bible before making such comments”.

    • Reply June 12, 2020

      Varnel Watson

      The only ridiculous thing here IS that you cannot explain the 10 things without GAP theory You see if you could have you would have just explain them and be done thus disproving the theory Instead you just talking accomplishing nothing

    • Reply June 12, 2020

      Yehoshua Marion

      Troy Day There’s nothing theologically sound in this they just made a bunch of stuff up that they think the Bible says that the Bible does not say it all and said that you have to have a gap theory to explain them well of course you do because you’re putting stuff in the Bible that isn’t there!

  • Reply June 12, 2020

    Drew Osborne

    there is no pre-Adamic race; it’s heresy, otherwise the word of God is a lie. That would mean we’re not saved and could never be

    • Reply June 12, 2020

      Varnel Watson

      if its IN the Bible cant be heresy except if you are calling the BIBLE heresy – is this what you think ?

  • Reply June 12, 2020

    Joshua Steindl

    Most of those 10 things can be explained as working in the spiritual realm not the physical. The only time we see Satan taking physical form is the snake in the garden.

    • Reply June 12, 2020

      Varnel Watson

      I challenge you to try Gary Micheal Epping has seen MANY before you try and fail BUT if you think you are SUCH a great theologian give it a try will ya ?

    • Reply June 12, 2020

      Joshua Steindl

      I think you have the burden of proof to claim that satan and the angels had human bodies before Adam and Eve. That’s not in the Bible.

  • Reply June 12, 2020

    Christopher Carver

    Whoever wrote this needs to proof read their stuff.
    Gen 6 is the answer to a couple of those but not worth of my time to refute this because anyone that believes it is blind.

    • Reply June 12, 2020

      Varnel Watson

      instead of proofreading the BIBLE just disprove ALL 10 with the BIBLE and be done Neil Steven Lawrence Larry Dale Steele

  • Reply June 12, 2020

    Christopher Carver

    Number 5 and 7 Why do the Bible tells us…that is really bad English.

  • Reply June 12, 2020

    Christopher Carver

    Man thanks for posting this..it is a great testament of the type of knowledge you guys put out..100% unscholarly
    #flawedlogic

  • Reply June 12, 2020

    Christopher Carver

    And honestly who cares if you want to commit eisegesis be my guest. You will only fool the foolish.

  • Reply June 12, 2020

    Phill Kofi

    The creation story is allegorical, its meant to teach us truth. It was never meant to be taken literally, as if it happened.

    • Reply June 12, 2020

      Donovan Loreman

      It is not allegorical. It is a statement of fact. Even science has come to the conclusion that we decended from “two people”

    • Reply June 12, 2020

      Kaale Oscar

      Jesus took it literally

    • Reply June 12, 2020

      Phill Kofi

      Kaale Oscar he was using what they believed to teach them.

  • Reply June 12, 2020

    Chester Higgs

    are you saying we can not explain the fall if we don’t believe in the gap theory?

  • Reply June 12, 2020

    Michael B Reimann

    Let me ask this question.
    If the book of Genesis is to be taken literally, the the fact that the devil tricked Eve is a lie.
    Genesis says the serpent, who was the most subtil of all the beasts of the field God created, spoke to Eve.
    So which is it?
    Genesis is literal and there were only two people and the devil never tricked Eve.
    Or.
    Genesis is symbolic like Revelation and needs to be interpreted. And if interpreted then there is possibility of other people at the time.
    Can’t have the cake and eat it too guys.

    • Reply June 12, 2020

      Donovan Loreman

      Assuming your assumption, how can the devil not trick eve through the serpent? You can’t have your false equivocation and still stand.

    • Reply June 12, 2020

      Michael B Reimann

      Because the Bible says that Eve was tricked by the serpent, not satan through the serpent. Even the original Hebrew word says simply snake, serpent.
      So you tell me, which one does the BIBLE tell YOU it was? Pick one. Don’t try to prove me wrong with a question that doesn’t fit.
      What is your choice? Is Genesis literal or figurative???? It cannot be both.

    • Reply June 12, 2020

      Andrew Ingrams

      Michael B Reimann spirits can occupy animals how else would the serpent been able to speak!

    • Reply June 12, 2020

      Michael B Reimann

      Only example of any animal speaking was God through Balaams donkey. That theory holds no water. the pig did not say anything when Jesus sent the demons into it.

    • Reply June 12, 2020

      Samuel Salinas

      Michael B Reimann those spirits did speak through that man though, and they moved those pigs ? to jump in to the water. Why wouldn’t the donkey speaking hold no water btw? I’m just chiming in.

    • Reply June 12, 2020

      Michael B Reimann

      The donkey was God speaking. There has to be willingness to allow a spirit to speak through. There is just no basis anywhere for a spirit speaking through an animal other tha God through the donkey.

    • Reply June 12, 2020

      Tyler Green

      Michael B Reimann well donkey couldn’t have been God speaking, because He asks why Balaam struck him. Balaam did not strike God. The Lord opened the mouth of that donkey, and it spoke.

    • Reply June 12, 2020

      Michael B Reimann

      Tyler Green
      The LORD either way.
      The devil can’t do that.
      God had to open the mouth of the donkey for it to speak.
      If this is the case, then God opened the mouth of the serpent that tricked Eve…..

    • Reply June 12, 2020

      Tom Ryans

      Serpent is Satan:

      And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world-he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. (Revelation 12:9, ESV)

    • Reply June 12, 2020

      Michael B Reimann

      Tom Ryans
      Then why is he called one of the created beasts of the field in revelation??
      In the age of the preserved books of the Bible, the Pentateuch is not the oldest.
      Job is the oldest manuscript known to man.
      And again. If the serpent is symbolic of satan then Adam is symbolic as the first man, and thus confirmed as the first spiritual man.
      There can’t be literal and symbolic writing in same book. It has to be one or the other.

    • Reply June 13, 2020

      Tom Ryans

      Michael B Reimann It is unclear if Satan possessed the serpent, took the form of the serpent or something else, but God certainly cursed the serpent as if it were real and the role the serpent played is exactly the role of Satan- getting us to doubt God and not trust His word. Even if the serpent was symbolic of Adam being tempted, I don’t see why you would need to come to the conclusion that Adam must be symbolic as well. Using imagery to describe Satan tempting someone, doesn’t mean the individual being tempted doesn’t exist.

  • Reply June 12, 2020

    Chris Arevalo

    The questions there are poorly constructed, baseless and founded on pure speculation. It’s an attempt to provide an answer that scripture did not intend give. It’s going outside the bounds of God revelation, and it’s a very very dangerous theology. It’s basically a series of questions to create doubt where the author didn’t even provide a solution or an explanation for a proper scholarly critique.

    • Reply June 12, 2020

      Chris Arevalo

      I take that back. Scripture does talk about the fall and its effects. It talks about the fall of Satan and his angels but not exactly when it happened.

  • Reply June 12, 2020

    Joshua Seabolt

    1:while I question what a “lost soul” is referring to the answer is that if it means Ghosts of a dead person, it doesn’t exist, or if it means someone who isn’t saved, the answer is still God.

    2.Demons are just fallen angels

    3. Satan hasnt truly fallen yet. Yet is a ruler over the earth currently, he shall truly fall once and for all in the end at the day of judgment.

    4. He’s an extremely good liar and persuader as well as angels have just as much freedom as man. And thus they will fall for their rebellion with him in judgement

    5. It doesn’t?

    6. God separated order from Chaos in the first three days. He likely did this for many reasons, one of which to my knowledge is to show he has power over that which cannot be controlled (chaos typically can never be controlled).

    7. It doesn’t.

    8. Age of the earth is like 6k to 10k years old. People want to claim longer with their faulty methods such as carbon dating which runs off of a bunch of variables, however looking at the rate which the universe is expanding, it tells us that it is much younger than any method that they have tried.

    9. We lived with dinosaurs. They are in the Bible if your paying attention. The reason you can’t find the word “dinosaurs” is because it doesn’t exist in ancient Hebrew language. Typically words such as “beasts” were used instead. The boat likely got pillaged, burned down, nature just broke it down, whatever the case. It’s completely logical to think we wouldn’t be able to find it.

    10. Bruh the gap theory makes no sense because the wages of sin is death. Get on my level m8. To accept thousands of years of death is to deny that sin has consequences.

    What’s next?

    • Reply June 12, 2020

      Michael B Reimann

      Demons are NOT fallen angels.
      Angels have physical bodies, demons are always seeking a body.
      Angels have access to Heaven, the Bible says demons are always roaming the earth.

      Also, please explain why the original word used for darkness in Genesis 1:2 literally means darkness, misery, destruction, DEATH, ignorance, sorrow, and wickedness……

      All these things were HERE already before God even said let there be light. And when God DID say let there be light in this world, it was Jesus He was speaking of. All the celestial luminaries come much later.

      Care to clarify?

    • Reply June 12, 2020

      Jay Zeke Malakai

      Michael B Reimann if demons aren’t angels, why does Jesus say Hell is reserved for the devil and his angels (Matthew 25:41)? If the original word for darkness in Genesis 1:2 means all the things you say, why do no reputable translations in any language say so? If the things were already there, where did they come from, and why did God lie when He said all things were made through Christ? Your view is unsustainable.

    • Reply June 12, 2020

      Michael B Reimann

      If hell is reserved for demons, why did Jesus just not send them there instead of into pigs?
      Why do no translations use those original words? Because most of what you believe is guided by doctrines of men throughout history.
      Can YOU tell me why the Bible says a beast of the field tricked Eve and not satan?
      And where did these things come from??? The Bible says in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth, and it was void and had darkness, Real darkness. AT SOME POINT after the beginning, God said let there be light. How much time transpired in between?? Do we know? God created all those things when He created the earth. He said so in Isaiah.
      Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, I create evil, I the LORD do all these things.

      Care to expound? When Adam fell, he inherited the death and wickedness from the earth he was formed from, as that was the state of things before God connected with Adam and put him in the garden.

    • Reply June 12, 2020

      Joshua Seabolt

      Michael B Reimann may you realize that Angels don’t have bodies right, they can manifest them but they don’t have them. Their spirits, spirits don’t have them

    • Reply June 12, 2020

      Andrew Ingrams

      Michael B Reimann the evil spirits asked not to be sent to hell because they now how awful it was, lucifer was in Heaven still but occupied the servant to lie to Adam and Eve, let there be light is the concept of light as let there be gravity etc,

    • Reply June 12, 2020

      Michael B Reimann

      Andrew Ingrams
      That holds no water either. Gravity as we know it could not happen until the moon was hung in the sky.
      The original word means illumination or luminary. Who is the light of the world?????
      yeah.

      And the spirits asked not to go to hell because it was not their time…….There are several scriptures that mention both demons and angels in the same sentence. Look for them.

    • Reply June 12, 2020

      Samuel Salinas

      Michael B Reimann again just chiming in. Does the day He created the heavens and the Earth have to be years or could it have been an actual day where in part of it the Earth was without form and void and darkness was upon the face thereof? Where in He said let there be light and there was? Could it be that the Idea of light was created that first day? I think it’s possible for Him to have created what we understand to project that light on the fourth day. It doesn’t mean the light hadn’t existed yet. As far as the serpent ? being the one God allowed to speak to them, you have some good points on what the scripture literally says. I can’t think of any verses that would imply Satan was the one using the serpent but I’m sure there are. Why would God curse the poor serpent ? after all, all good questions. But I take the whole Word of God literal and it all makes sense. Even the scriptures alluding to Christ wich men then didn’t understand and who today still don’t understand but are there to be searched out and understood. Hearing men of God preaching the Word of God, unfortunately for some who won’t with a willing heart, enlightens. Like the possibility of Jesus being that ladder that reached heaven, He being the the way to the Father and all. (I know I probably sound silly but..)

    • Reply June 12, 2020

      Michael B Reimann

      Samuel Salinas
      Let their be light was God speaking Jesus into the world. It is how all creation afterwards is through Him.

    • Reply June 12, 2020

      Kaale Oscar

      Michael B Reimann are you saying God created Jesus?

    • Reply June 12, 2020

      Kaale Oscar

      Michael B Reimann Adam did not inherit death and wickedness from the earth but rather the earth was cursed because of Adam’s rebellion

    • Reply June 13, 2020

      Kenny Herrera

      Joshua Seabolt In my opinion I think demons are the spirits of the Nephilim.

  • Reply June 12, 2020

    Joe A Smith

    Pre Adamic Race gap theory Contradicts Scripture so it is false.

  • Reply June 12, 2020

    Johnathon Morris

    Balogne, stop believing the apocrypha is scripture.

  • Reply June 12, 2020

    Tom Salamone

    Fix the grammar and I’ll refute your argument

  • Reply June 12, 2020

    Yeshua Elijah

    What if the preadamic race, was similar to our own?

    I mean, we know about Angels & Demons and we know they had a beginning, right?

    So what if lucifer, and his Angels and Michael the arch Angel and his hordes were men created in the image of God, and put to inhabit bodies like we do. However their time came, like all of ours will eventually come, they all died, and went from men to Angels because they no longer were attached to their bodies and the world became flooded by an act of God? I mean, think about it. Genesis does say that the earth was without form and darkness was on the face of the deep and the spirit of Gid hovered above the waters.

    That imagery depicts a chaotic scene, some thing happened before before the earth became void. And it seems Noahs flood was not the first to cover the earth.

    What if he decided to create a new race of man, that would be host to the spirit, to replace the loss of perhaps billions or more lost Angels. What if he created us to fill the void left by the rebellion?

    Now, i am not saying i am correct or making any certain claims. Im just saying what if??

    • Reply June 12, 2020

      Jay Zeke Malakai

      Ok. Counter theory: what if the Bible is true?

    • Reply June 12, 2020

      Yeshua Elijah

      Jay Zeke Malakai no one is claiming is not, silly.

      Im saying there are many things not written in it, even through out scripture books of the bible make reference to books not included in the bible. All we have is a limited understanding, the whole story was never revealed

    • Reply June 12, 2020

      Jay Zeke Malakai

      Pre-Adamic race is impossible. Bible says he was the first man, and his wife is the mother of all the living. So either there is no pre-Adamic race, or the Bible is wrong.

    • Reply June 12, 2020

      Yeshua Elijah

      Jay Zeke Malakai ok it says that, and that does not mean it is not true. Of course its true but what if that is only referencing our race of beings?

      The bible does omit alot of info, and uses things like euphemism, dark sayings, parables, symbolism etc..

      The bible does say seek and you will find. It always reserves its treasure and secrets for the diligent. A man reading scripture should be like a man searching for buried treasure, not just surface sand.

      In other words… Go deeper

    • Reply June 12, 2020

      Jay Zeke Malakai

      When you hit bedrock, take your broken shovel and go home. There’s a fine line between digging deeper and making crap up. Pre-Adamic races are a new concept invented because the Church got into bed with the atheists. That kind of spiritual adultery doesn’t lead to treasure, it leads to desolation. We need to go back to what scripture says, not what we want it to say.

    • Reply June 12, 2020

      Yeshua Elijah

      Jay Zeke Malakai how is that spiritual adultery?? And where did you get the idea that the church has been inspired by atheist?

      I mean, i get what you are saying for the most part. I get it but… How is it spiritual adultery? And atheistic inspired?? Just trying to understand what you mean and or are referencing. Perhaps i can learn something

    • Reply June 12, 2020

      Jay Zeke Malakai

      The Bible says the Earth is around 6,000 years old, with Adam and Eve as the first two people (created on day 6), from whom we are all descended. The whole Church, near enough, believed that for a very long time. But in the Early 1800s, misotheist Charles Lyell wanted to “free the science [of geology] from Moses [the author of Genesis]”, so he started saying the earth is actually much older. Charles Darwin, another atheist, started saying man is descended from apes, which is why he said Genesis is just as wrong as the books of Hindus. The Church started borrowing ideas from them, abandoning the long held view as described in the Bible. Most Christians actually still believe the traditional view, but a lot of them say the Earth is millions of years old, and there was a whole world before Genesis 1, and there were people before and besides Adam etc. It’s all a result of atheism. If Lyell and Darwin and their like had never been born, no one would be talking about the mythical pre-Adamite race. We’d still believe the traditional view.

    • Reply June 12, 2020

      Yeshua Elijah

      Jay Zeke Malakai ok, but can i ask you, isnt it possible the earth is way more older than one interprets the bible says it is? I mean… The bible does say a day is like a thousand years to the Lord, so how can you take fundamentalist interpretations to heart and ignore the facts that not everything in scripture is meant to be literal? 6000 years only shows the Jewish calender.

    • Reply June 12, 2020

      Jay Zeke Malakai

      I want you to go to that verse (2 Peter 3:8), then read from verse 1 to verse 16.

    • Reply June 12, 2020

      Yeshua Elijah

      Jay Zeke Malakai ok i did, its the verse i qouted

    • Reply June 12, 2020

      Jay Zeke Malakai

      I know it is. Now read the verses it sits between. You’ll see why you quoted it out of context.

  • Reply June 12, 2020

    Sam Sears

    ummm no, the Jewish people already gave us an origin for demons, the slain nephilliam. It’s illogical to think a pre adamic race is the only solution to things brought up in the list.

  • Reply June 12, 2020

    Michael Howell

    Nope. There is no pre-Adamic race of humans. Sorry.

    • Reply June 13, 2020

      Varnel Watson

      not the question here now is it?

    • Reply June 13, 2020

      Michael Howell

      Troy Day what do you mean?

  • Reply June 12, 2020

    Joao Esteves Gemal

    I will re-write the title: 10 Things in the BIBLE that cannot be explained if you didn’t read THE BIBLE, then to explain your lack of reading you invent a satanic theory

  • Reply June 13, 2020

    David Buyna

    I believe the Bible does not support man before Adam. And that on judgement day it won’t be on the test. And that this doctrine is designed to create confusion and division thereby being fit to be cast out into the draught.

    Mat_15:17 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?
    Mar_7:19 Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats?

    Mat_16:11 How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees?

  • Reply June 13, 2020

    Varnel Watson

    SO MUCH general talk and NO one yet dared to resolve at least 3 of the 10 in some other theological way WHY? is it because there is NO other way to answer these 10 simple questions

    • Reply June 13, 2020

      David Thomas

      1. Lost souls are everyone who dies outside of Christ. Creation groans as a result of Adam’s sin because the curse happened after Eden.
      2. Demons are rebellious angels.
      3. Satan most likely rebelled against God while Adam and Eve were in Eden.
      4. They chose to rebel.
      5. The “second story” is just an elaboration on the first. You don’t want to know the other theories as to why there are two. The one that’s widely held in scholarship is just as speculative but utterly destructive to a high view of Scripture as inspired by God.
      6. The formless and void earth was a blank canvas. To use the Jeremiah citation to make it a destroyed earth is to import a later understanding because of theological bias, which is eisegesis, a cardinal sin of biblical interpretation. Unless you want to say that the phrase was introduced post-Jeremiah, which would be related to my point in #5.
      7. It doesn’t.
      8. Random speculation doesn’t answer that question better than a straightforward reading of the text which indicates that is created in a mature state, meaning that dating the earth through uniformitarian assumptions will yield inaccurate results.
      9. Who says there weren’t dinosaurs on Noah’s ark?
      10. Original sin comes purely from Adam. If it had something to do with a pre-Adamite race, then Paul is wrong, and the New Testament is false.

      1 Timothy 1:3-4 “As I urged you when I was going to Macedonia, remain at Ephesus so that you may charge certain persons not to teach any different doctrine, nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies, which promote speculations rather than the stewardship from God that is by faith.”

      You may think that speculations have explanative power, but if they’re not actually based in Scripture, then they’re worthless.

    • Reply June 13, 2020

      Varnel Watson

      David Thomas NICE try but just a try and a very bad one you would agree mainly avoiding the questions

      1. Where lost souls come from? is the question We all know what they are SO tell us where they CAME from

      2. Where the demons come from? – again not ARE but WHERE?

      3. When did Satan fall from the Heavens? – – WHILE in the Garden does not work Just reading the BIBLE should tell you why but if you dont see it just ask and I will show it

      4. How did 1/3 of the angels fall with Satan? – OK how did they chose to rebel? we see no place in the BIBLE except before adam and eve that this could happen Satan was already fallen when they got there

      5. Why do the Bible tells us TWO creation stories? 0 you are confusing Gen 2 and 3 with what was asked in the question and explained in the article PLS READ the article FIRST

      6. Why was earth created shapeless and void (this brings to perspective flat earth vs a globe as well)? 0 IF SO give just ONE more example in the BILE where GOD did something FIRST on canvas before actually doing it AND/OR where GOD created something else that was with NO shape and void There are NO such other examples GOD does not work this way

      7. Why do the Bible tells us TWO flood narratives? – read the article

      8. Age of earth? 0 you are avoiding a VERY important question to this article just like you are avoiding the other 9

      9. The disappearing of the dinosaurs and why where no dinosaurs in Noah’s ark? – just because you saw them when you visited the ark in KY and they told you they were very small babies in eggs doesnot make it TRUE 🙂 Truth of the matter there were NO dynos after the flood WHY?

      10. The whole doctrine of Original sin and its coming into man’s flesh? – unclear avoidance ARE you saying original sin is a MYTH now? The original sin of THIS creation comes from Adam in this creation but WHO pushed him toward it? You are avoiding the matter again – HOW did SIN came to exist? Gary Micheal Epping

      http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/the-pre-adamite-world/

  • Reply June 13, 2020

    Varnel Watson

    Gary Micheal Epping here are some verses proving that earth was created inhabited not void like David Thomas claimed or a canvas We can take these 1by1 if its hard to follow as we have done before

    The earth was created to be inhabited (Isa. 45:18), and was inhabited before the flood of Gen. 1:2 and the work of the six days of Adam‘s time (Gen. 1:3 — Gen. 2:25; Isa. 14:12-14; Jer. 4:23-26; Ezek. 28:11-17; 2Pet. 3:5-7). The earth is called “dry land” in Gen. 1:10 which means that Gen. 1:1 could read, “In the beginning God created the heaven and dry land.” Since it was created dry, it stands to reason that the flooded condition of Gen. 1:2 was a curse, not a creative act. According to Ps. 136:6 the earth was originally “stretched above the waters,” not covered by them (see note, Ps. 136:6). This requires a pre-Adamite race whose sin brought such a curse.

    In Scripture, all instances of obscuring the sun and bringing darkness are the result of judgment, not creation — which is also true of the two universal floods (Gen. 6:8 — Gen. 8:22; Ex. 10:21-23; Isa. 5:30; Jer. 4:23-26). All predictions of future darkness depict judgment (Mt. 8:12; 24:29-31; Rev. 6:12-17; 8:12; 9:2; 16:10; Isa. 13:10; Joel 2:30-3:16; Amos 5:18-20). Could we say that Gen. 1:2 is the only place in Scripture where darkness and a universal flood are not an act of judgment? If it isn’t an option, then Gen. 1:2 proves that there was a pre-Adamite world destroyed by darkness and flood. No one questions that Noah’s flood was an act of judgment, or doubts the existence of free moral agents before the flood actually came. Why then doubt the existence of a pre-Adamite world which was destroyed by the darkness and flood of Gen. 1:2? See Lucifer’s Flood.

  • Reply June 13, 2020

    Varnel Watson

    David Thomas this will help you gain perspective on Differences between Lucifer’s flood and Noah’s flood that seems like you hear about for the first time Gary Micheal Epping and myself have talked about it a lot before and can repeat the talk

    http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/differences-between-lucifers-flood-and-noahs-flood/

    • Reply June 13, 2020

      Varnel Watson

      David Thomas Houston can you hear us We lost contact with you 8hrs ago Is everything OK ?

    • Reply June 13, 2020

      David Thomas

      Troy Day Sorry, I only have so much energy to devote to arguing on Facebook over strange biblical interpretations

  • Reply June 13, 2020

    Varnel Watson

    BABY DYNO what?

    David Thomas who asked

    9. Who says there weren’t dinosaurs on Noah’s ark?

    and the rest of yall who said BABY DYNO on the ark blah blah

    Philip Williams here is ONE of the original few who discovered Noah’s ARK and he will tell ya right here and no there was NOT a SINGLE dyno bone on it – no baby no nothing

    NEXT Gary Micheal Epping ppl here will start claiming HEAVEN is NOT the original planet of the apes #crazy

  • Reply June 14, 2020

    Lara Emilia Gemma

    Scott Priest thoughts

  • Reply June 14, 2020

    Hingano Kaitu'u

    Genesis 1:1 could be read this way. “ In the beginning of time (pass,present, future) God created the space ( heaven=length, width, height) and the matter(earth=solid, liquid, gas). Can I get an Amen

  • Reply June 14, 2020

    Barnabas Pandit

    I really would like to talk you that Genesis 1 is creation list and Genesis t)chapter 2 is details of chapter 1

  • Reply June 25, 2020

    Jason Corkran

    All 10 of those things have been explaimed quite easily and consistently throughout church history. Oh pentecostals…. such a mess.

    • Reply June 25, 2020

      Varnel Watson

      if this was the case you would have explained them by now instead of explaining them away for the lack of actual Biblical explanation which seems you are still lacking

    • Reply June 25, 2020

      Jason Corkran

      I simply did not wish to spend the time on refuting every point in the list. I simply think it’s a silly assertion to say that those things can’t be explained, when, in fact, theologians have been explaining them for 1000s of years. My comment concerned the assertion that the things could not be explained. My comment was not purposed to explain the things.

    • Reply June 25, 2020

      Varnel Watson

      Jason Corkran then retire from it – no need for more

  • 1- All souls are lost (from the time-domain perspective) before they are saved.

    2- Demons have no explanation in the Scriptures, yet it would seem that they would be the spirits of the Nephilim, the human-angel hybrids.

    3- Satan fell between the first and second day (there could be a gap, but there cannot be a pre-Adamic race because death was brought by Adam’s sin).

    4- They rebelled against God by joining league with the Accuser.

    5- The Scriptures do not tell of two creation events.

    6- The Earth was not made “תהו ובהו” as God declares in Isaiah 45:18

    7- The Bible does not teach two flood narratives.

    8- Since Adam, ~6,000 years. Refer to post script in #3 for total number.

    9- There would be dinosaurs in Noah’s Ark, I have no idea where you got this idea from.

    10- Adam, the figurehead of mankind, chose to transgress against God’s Law, and thus forced death to be introduced as a means of regaining complete fellowship with God. Original sin (our sin nature) is inherited because of & Adam.

    • Reply June 25, 2020

      Varnel Watson

      lests start with #3 death to THIS creation was brought in by Adam. Jesus spoke of the FALL of the worldS – you just opened a new can with your 1 sentence approach there

      Also BY admitting a GAP is needed for satans fall you admit there is NO other Biblical time or explanation for he fall except a GAP

      SO just by simple read on your comment you agree more than you disagree with gap theory We can pick them up one by one BUT I feel the result will be likewise

    • Unable to post the comment.

  • Reply June 25, 2020

    James C. Morris

    I am a strong proponent of what they call “the gap theory.” But the points presented here are lame at best, and in some cases appear to border on heresy.

    • Reply June 25, 2020

      Varnel Watson

      give us some better ones then or even better explain the ones who seem lame to you Should be easy

    • Reply June 25, 2020

      Scott Stewart

      James C. Morris
      Don’t get weird on the Bible and the Bible won’t get weird on you. It’s very simple. It’s a 24 hour day, it was written as “yom” that means a 24 hour day…. take it literally and there is nothing that can break the Bible. I’d challenge anyone on any Biblical situation.

    • Reply June 25, 2020

      James C. Morris

      Scott Stewart I completely agree with you.

  • Reply June 25, 2020

    Ron Shephard

    I don’t believe in a gap theory and most of these things can be explained quite easily if you think a little outside the box and ponder what the bible doesn’t say about this topic. I’m a creationist but I’m not a young earther.

  • Reply June 26, 2020

    Craig Somersett

    Troy Day
    Hi Troy,

    Of the 10 questions you claim cannot be answered, numbers 5, 7 and 9 are erroneous.

    //5. Why do the Bible tells us TWO creation stories?//

    It doesn’t. Genesis 1 provides the big picture while chapter 2 focuses on the events involved in the creation of man.

    //7. Why do the Bible tells us TWO flood narratives?//

    It doesn’t. Genesis 6 through 8 provides the only historical narrative of the flood, although a poetic account in Ps. 104 also alludes to this (much as the song after crossing the Red Sea in Exodus chapter 15 gives a poetic review of the historical account of chapter 14).

    //9. The disappearing of the dinosaurs and why where no dinosaurs in Noah’s ark?//

    There were dinosaurs on the Ark. The Bible is very specific… 2 of every land animal:

    YOU MUST BRING INTO THE ARK TWO OF EVERY KIND OF LIVING CREATURE FROM ALL FLESH, MALE AND FEMALE, to keep them alive with you… TWO OF EVERY KIND WILL COME TO YOU so you can keep them alive.
    Genesis 6:19‭-‬20 NET

    Common sense dictates that they would be young, smaller representatives and the Ark was well able to accommodate all God sent to Noah.

    The vast majority of the dinosaurs were drowned in the flood, leaving their remains in the fossil record. Those which came off the Ark had to adapt to their new environment, including the 500 yr ice age which followed the flood and later being hunted by each other and man (who would naturally come to see them as a threat).

    Two others are easily addressed.

    //6. Why was earth created shapeless and void (this brings to perspective flat earth vs a globe as well)?//

    The earth began as an enormous sphere of water as the Spirit hovered over the deep. Genesis 1:2

    God made Adam from the dust of the earth. You begin with something formless, and then give it shape and function. It’s a perfectly reasonable way for God to initiate His creative process.

    //8. Age of earth?//

    Roughly 6,000 years. This is obtained using simple math and the genealogies of Genesis 5 and 11. There were approximately 2,000 years from Adam’s creation to Abraham; another 2,000 until Christ’s birth; it’s been almost 2,000 since Christ’s crucifixion and resurrection.

    Since Luke’s gospel traces Jesus’ ancestry straight back to an historical Adam, the earth cannot be older than 7,000 years.

    https://www.icr.org/article/how-young-earth-applying-simple-math-data-provided

    This is also in keeping with Christ’s teaching that male and female were created “in the beginning of creation” – not at the end of a multi-billion year process.

    But FROM THE BEGINNING OF CREATION HE MADE THEM male and female. For this reason a man will leave his father and mother, and the two will become one flesh. So they are no longer two, but one flesh.
    Mark 10:6‭-‬8 NET

    The other questions invite speculation in areas on which the Bible is silent. Basing doctrine on such a weak foundation is tenuous at best and deceptive at the worst.

  • Reply June 26, 2020

    Alan Yusko

    the gappers need to learn the bible.. in gen 1:1 God created all.. then from verse 2 till the end of the chapter.. He tells us how He did it.. it is just not complex and no need for a foolish gap..

    • Reply June 26, 2020

      Varnel Watson

      everyone has a choice – you can be a gapper or an yapper

  • Reply June 26, 2020

    Philip Williams

    Oh my, those fellows are liberals.

    • Reply June 26, 2020

      Varnel Watson

      liberal dems who want to get rid of the gap

  • Reply June 26, 2020

    Lawrence Apitz

    they are all explainable with proper theology. Pentecostals do not have that.

  • Reply June 26, 2020

    Lawrence Apitz

    1. Where lost souls come from? which lost souls? those under the OT who were unfaithful to the covenant were lost, souls.

    2. Where the demons come from?- evil pre flood people, lost souls.

    3. When did Satan fall from the Heavens? between Gen 1;31 and Gen 3;1

    4. How did 1/3 of the angels fall with Satan? they listened to him and made a free-will choice to reject God’s sovereignty.

    5. Why do the Bible tells us TWO creation stories? ans, Jewish thought, conclusions first details second. gen 2 are the details.

    6. Why was the earth created shapeless and void (this brings to perspective flat earth vs a globe as well)? gravity had to exist or the water would have evaporated into space. question of translation.

    7. Why do the Bible tells us TWO flood narratives? there are not two flood narratives,

    8. Age of earth? still a question “in the beginning God had created the heavens and the earth, and the earth had been without form and empty” it is possible the earth was created before God said “let there be light”

    9. The disappearing of the dinosaurs and why where no dinosaurs in Noah’s ark? God only told Noah to take certain animals. not all.

    10. The whole doctrine of Original sin and its coming into man’s flesh? Read the apostle Paul. “through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin” it all comes from Adam. Pentecostals need good thelogical training. Strongs systematic theology. would do.

    • Reply June 27, 2020

      Varnel Watson

      if you ARE indeed unclear which lost souls – pls reconsider posting under OPs you do not yet understand

      #2 which flood? Noahs or satans – pls read some more

    • Reply June 27, 2020

      Lawrence Apitz

      Troy Day there is no satans flood.

    • Reply June 27, 2020

      Varnel Watson

      Lawrence Apitz hahahah so where did LOST SOULS come from? you are in a circular logic motion this morning

    • Reply June 27, 2020

      Lawrence Apitz

      Troy Day what lost souls are you talking about, be specific.

    • Reply June 27, 2020

      Varnel Watson

      Lawrence Apitz circular logic again – let me catch up on my SAT work and I will sum up the mistakes yall 2 made in your comments Avoiding the issue is not resolving it

    • Reply June 27, 2020

      Lawrence Apitz

      Troy Day there is no real issue you are making an argument I have things to do right now so I am off.

    • Reply June 27, 2020

      Varnel Watson

      Lawrence Apitz actually there is. You claim to have answered the questions BUT you do so by including another gap b/c you cannot explain satan falling without a gap Nothing After Gen 1 does not say about satan fallen He is already fallen in Gen 3 so where do you get this info? NOT from the BIBLE thats for sure Now there is nothing wrong with holding your position when your position is right BUT when your position is wrong it needs to be corrected and I will do so in a bit Thank you

    • Reply June 27, 2020

      Lawrence Apitz

      Troy Day use a little logic, if everything God created is good at Gen 1;31 satan must have fell by the time of Gen 3;1 the gap theory is just that a theory which is not provable.

    • Reply June 27, 2020

      Varnel Watson

      Lawrence Apitz You posting your circular logic after I ask you to pls wait a bit will not help you theological problem Now pls respect my privacy in the next 1-2hrs I will take special time to answer your theological dilemma and help you with your confusion on this subject from OP

    • Reply June 27, 2020

      Lawrence Apitz

      What is the Gap Theory?
      Gap Theoryaudio
      Question: “What is the Gap Theory? Did anything happen between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?”

      Answer: Genesis 1:1–2 states, “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.” The gap theory is the view that God created a fully functional earth with all animals, including the dinosaurs and other creatures we know only from the fossil record. Then, the theory goes, something happened to destroy the earth completely—most likely the fall of Satan to earth—so that the planet became without form and void. At this point, God started all over again, recreating the earth in its paradise form as further described in Genesis. The gap theory, which is distinct from theistic evolution and the day-age theory, is also called old-earth creationism, gap creationism, and the ruin-reconstruction theory.

      In young-earth creationism, Genesis 1:1 is seen as a summary of the complete chapter 1 in the Hebrew storytelling form. God created the heavens and the earth. Then verse 2 begins a detailed breakdown of the step-by-step process that verse 1 summarizes. However, the statement that “the earth was formless and empty, [and] darkness was over the surface of the deep” (Genesis 1:2) can be puzzling. The idea that God created a useless and shapeless earth is an uncomfortable position for some conservative theologians, and this leads them to the gap theory, or an old-earth perspective.

      According to conservative proponents of the gap theory, Genesis 1:1 describes the original creation of God—perfect in every way. Then, between verses 1 and 2, Satan rebelled in heaven and was cast out. Satan’s sin “ruined” the original creation; that is, his rebellion brought about its destruction and eventual death, and the earth was reduced to its “formless and empty” state, ready for the “re-construction.” The length of time involved—the size of the “gap”—is not specified but could have lasted millions of years.

      Of course, Satan must have fallen before Adam did; otherwise, there would have been no temptation in the garden. Young-earth creationists say that Satan fell sometime after Genesis 1:31. Gap creationists say that Satan fell between Genesis 1:1 and 2.

      One difficulty of the gap theory is that it requires that creation suffer death and destruction before Adam’s fall. Romans 5:12 says, “Sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned.” The gap theory counters by positing two worlds. Satan’s sin brought death to the original creation, whatever that was like; and Adam’s sin brought death to the re-creation, the realm of mankind. Through Adam’s sin, evil entered our world and the realm of man was cursed. But rebellion already existed outside the realm of mankind (in the spiritual realm), since Satan and his angels had already fallen (Isaiah 14:12–14; Ezekiel 28:12–18). Sin could not enter the realm of man until man chose it. And Satan, via the serpent, successfully tempted man to make that choice.

      Objections to the gap theory include the idea that, if something important had occurred between Genesis 1:1 and 2, God would have told us so, rather than leave us to speculate in ignorance. Also, Genesis 1:31 says God declared His creation to be “very good”—a statement difficult to square with the theory that evil already existed because of Satan’s fall in the “gap.”

      It is possible to hold to a literal, six-day creation week and still hold to the gap theory—the gap theory does not require evolution to be true, since the gap falls before the events of Day One in Genesis 1:3. And that’s why some conservative scholars do believe the gap theory, although its acceptance has waned since the days of proponents C. I. Scofield and J. Vernon McGee.

      However, many of those who hold to the gap theory do so in order to reconcile old-earth, evolutionary theories with the book of Genesis. But it seems to be a strained reconciliation. The plain reading of Genesis 1 does not at all intimate a length of time between the first two verses. Genesis 1:1 tells us that God created the heavens and the earth. Genesis 1:2 informs us that, when He first created the earth, it was formless, empty, and dark; it was unfinished and uninhabited. The rest of Genesis 1 relates how God completed the formless, empty with creation and forming of the earth.

  • Reply June 27, 2020

    Varnel Watson

    Lawrence Apitz just like ירמיהו קהלת from the other day you are substituting one gap for another within satans fall No problem there except yall are putting the gap in the wrong place in Gen from where several of the 10 points remain unexplained or just simply avoided for better word in yalls commenting TRY again

    • Reply June 27, 2020

      Lawrence Apitz

      I see no gap in the wrong place after creation, everything was very good, everything! no fall of satan or 1/3 of the angels yet

    • Reply June 27, 2020

      Varnel Watson

      Lawrence Apitz you said you see a GAP where satan fall and I sad your gap is in the wrong place Pls prove me wrong will ya

    • Reply June 27, 2020

      Lawrence Apitz

      I made my point already. satan fell between gen 1;31 and gen 3;1. the gap theory tries to put his fall before gen 1;1 this is not a reliable idea, it never has been and promotes endless arguments like the one you are trying to draw me into.

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