Practical application of Pentecostal theology in politics, economy and social issues
Why would any minister, teacher, deacon etc NOT want to go ahead and become licensed? What would be a valid reason for not doing so?
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Spin-Off from Troy Day’s post about licensing. Why would any minister, teacher, deacon etc NOT want to go ahead and become licensed? What would be a valid reason for not doing so?
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I apologize in advance for the length of the question.
The book of Ruth is incredibly romantic and powerful, but I don’t understand the legal portion of the drama:
Now Boaz had gone up to the gate and sat down there. And behold, the redeemer, of whom Boaz had spoken, came by. So Boaz said, “Turn aside, friend; sit down here.” And he turned aside and sat down. And he took ten men of the elders of the city and said, “Sit down here.” So they sat down. Then he said to the redeemer, “Naomi, who has come back from the country of Moab, is selling the parcel of land that belonged to our relative Elimelech. So I thought I would tell you of it and say, ‘Buy it in the presence of those sitting here and in the presence of the elders of my people.’ If you will redeem it, redeem it. But if you will not, tell me, that I may know, for there is no one besides you to redeem it, and I come after you.” And he said, “I will redeem it.”—Ruth 4:1-4 (ESV)
So far, so good. The property must remain in the family:
If your brother becomes poor and sells part of his property, then his nearest redeemer shall come and redeem what his brother has sold.—Leviticus 25:25 (ESV)
(In passing, it’s interesting to see that Naomi would be paid for the land so the effect of the rule is that widows retained some form of property ownership.)
Then Boaz said, “The day you buy the field from the hand of Naomi, you also acquire Ruth the Moabite, the widow of the dead, in order to perpetuate the name of the dead in his inheritance.” Then the redeemer said, “I cannot redeem it for myself, lest I impair my own inheritance. Take my right of redemption yourself, for I cannot redeem it.”
Now this was the custom in former times in Israel concerning redeeming and exchanging: to confirm a transaction, the one drew off his sandal and gave it to the other, and this was the manner of attesting in Israel.—Ruth 4:5-7 (ESV)
I do see that the custom of perpetuating the name of the dead had legal basis:
“If brothers dwell together, and one of them dies and has no son, the wife of the dead man shall not be married outside the family to a stranger. Her husband’s brother shall go in to her and take her as his wife and perform the duty of a husband’s brother to her. And the first son whom she bears shall succeed to the name of his dead brother, that his name may not be blotted out of Israel. And if the man does not wish to take his brother’s wife, then his brother’s wife shall go up to the gate to the elders and say, ‘My husband’s brother refuses to perpetuate his brother’s name in Israel; he will not perform the duty of a husband’s brother to me.’ Then the elders of his city shall call him and speak to him, and if he persists, saying, ‘I do not wish to take her,’ then his brother’s wife shall go up to him in the presence of the elders and pull his sandal off his foot and spit in his face. And she shall answer and say, ‘So shall it be done to the man who does not build up his brother’s house.’ And the name of his house shall be called in Israel, ‘The house of him who had his sandal pulled off.’—Deuteronomy 25:5-10 (ESV)
But why does Boaz say, “The day you buy the field from the hand of Naomi, you also acquire Ruth the Moabite”? How does redeeming some land also introduce a levirate marriage obligation?
Varnel Watson
Congrats to Brody Pope who just got licensed with denomination
Brian Crisp
You do need a license but it doesn’t have to be through a denomination which we are seeing now that denominations are becoming a thing of the past and I believe it’s God that is doing it.
Angel Ruiz
True denominations are becoming of the past also sound doctrine is becoming a thing of the past….
Brian Crisp
I think it’s a good thing that denominations are going away but sound doctrine is needed badly in a lot of areas in the USA.
Angel Ruiz
Well sound doctrine Can only be achieved by accountability…
Every church and every pastor of a local church needs accountability. If we believe that sin is a true reality, then we will strive to check it. And that often requires a voice outside of our own local churchb aka Denominations. They provide structure with their policies, appeals process, confessions, and authority.
Brian Crisp
Don’t need denominations for that.
Varnel Watson
“denominations are becoming a thing of the past” IS it really happening now Terry Wiles http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/death-of-denominations/
Stan Wayne
One reason is it limits the ability to give alms or tithes to local church or other causes
Varnel Watson
WHAT then DISTINGUISHES THE PENTECOSTAL THEOLOGY AND DENOMINATIONS? http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/what-distinguishes-the-pentecostal-theology-and-denominations/
Hunter McLain
Many things. Aside from a theological standpoint Pentecostalism is unique in that God Leads The Church, not men.
Grover Katzmarek Sr
Well for one thing is not biblical or scriptural
Angel Ruiz
What is not scriptural?
Hunter McLain
God makes ministers, not men. The only one you need a license from is God!
Angel Ruiz
True God provides a license… But it would be out of order to say that the church does not meet organization
Hunter McLain
If a man is called to Preach, He must Preach. No schooling needed. No license needed from a church. Just invitations to Preach at Churches.
Daniel Blaylock
But the church affirms those they are confident God has called. Christ the head does not work independently from His body the Church. We are urged to “lay hands on no man suddenly”–meaning that the church was to be careful about whom they ordained by the laying on of hands to a ministry such as pastor, elder, or deacon. Such ordination by the body does mean something; otherwise these passages in Timothy and Titus are irrelevant.
Hunter McLain
You don’t need permission from anyone but God to Preach. Yes we are to be careful who, but as Jesus said you know a tree by it’s fruits. Don’t just let anyone show up, you but don’t have to be liscened by a denomination.
David Lewayne Porter
I think it is funny that most non credentialed people I know try to figure out why they are not invited to preach in denominational or established churches..
If they don’t need credentials then pitch a tent in a field and get to preaching then.
There’s your church, there’s your folk,,
Get to preaching and catch them then.
Hunter McLain
I most often attend independent Churches. The only one that we answer to is The Lord. A certificate won’t mean a thing in Heaven.
David Lewayne Porter
Non-denominational churches (since there are no independent churches) are charted through their states of residence and do answer to men since they answer to the state and government.
You may want to check your info and your charter.
I guess your church has Jesus in the pulpit as well as on all your boards and in all leadership positions.
The only one you answer to is the Lord, right.
Hunter McLain
There are many independent churches, not sure what you are taking About. And no, and Independent CHURCH does not submit to anyone but God.
Angel Ruiz
Hunter McLain that his not true… Independent churches in today s time are the leaders in false doctrine… Not,saying that every independent church has false doctrine… But because of the lack of accountability independent churches are for the most part more susceptible to false teaching….
David Lewayne Porter
Hunter McLain
Go see how you are chartered. Are you chartered as a 501c3….
You answer to the Government, and you will in the future.
That is what I am talking about.
So yes,
Yes you do, and will, submit to someone other than God.
Are you a christian?
Do you believe your Bible?
Do you follow Jesus’s words?
Seems like you forgot this man that jesus,said had extraordinary Faith,,,
“Matthew 8:7-13
And Jesus saith unto him, I will come and heal him. The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed. For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it. When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel. And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour”.
Like you said, you are not sure what I am talking about because you have not checked…
So you don’t answer to man?
Does the pastor set the direction of the church? (He is a man)! Does the church have an oversight committee? (men)! Is there a board of directs or the like? (Men)!
The church is a body with many parts and will always answer to the parts while on this earth, man.
Did God (without man) direct the Church as recorded in The Bible within the New Testament?
You may want to go research the Jerusalem Council of Acts 15, 21, 11,,,, let’s not forget the epistles.
You see,
There is the “non-denominational” mindset.
They think they are completely independent but aren’t. The is there just underground out of sight.
The only way you are independent is if you pay taxes and did not charter as a church through the government. Dont forget, your pulpit is not empty and still has a man in human form directing you as a corporate body.
Several of those human bodies on boards actually.
It is what I am talking about.
Check
Your
Charter,
and tax status.
Better be careful, very careful about casting off that authority that God placed you under brother.
David Lewayne Porter
Hebrews 13 will help you with not answering to anyone but God.
Your God had this chapter addressed to you.
Vs 7 is where it starts.
Verse 9 tells you why, in order to make sure your doctrine is correct and you don’t follow divers and “strange” doctrine.
Verses 17 and 24 states it again.
Did you notice that verse 24 did not say IF they have rule over you.
Because we ALL have someone that RULES OVER US.
Salute ALL Them that Have RULE Over YOU.
Terry Wiles
From the earliest times there were methods of determining credibility of a person to be publiclly recognized. The pastorals have a detailed list. As the church quickly grew a more organized system of examination was developed.
Grover Katzmarek Sr
And as they became more organized they lost their power
Terry Wiles
We are very organized and see hundreds saved and filled with the Spirit in our local church each year and the same results in central and south america were we are penetrating the darkness of the jungle with the gospel.
David Lewayne Porter
I doubt everyone in a denomination has lost their power.
In the same way I doubt every minister and ministry that is not in a denomination has The Power.
LaVina Burns
I don’t think it’s imperative to be licensed, but it gives a level of comfort for those attending to know the person has been sanctioned by the church. We have a daughter that attended a church in Detroit and they had a man lead the college and career Bible study. He was not licensed by the church, the church did not know him, but they did not have the guts to say – NO, you are not sanctioned by the church. End result: The guy worked for the enemy and he kidnapped the young virgins in the Bible Study by drugging their ice teas and soft drinks with ruffies and ectasy, then sold them into human trafficking. SO, YES I do agree leadership needs to be licensed or in some way sanctioned by the church. Good Business in God’s Business! And yes, our daughter was one that we had to kidnap back! Took 18 monthhs!!
Joseph Kidwell
If one is called to preach as an Elder in the Church, it should be recognized by the Church that one is called to serve. I personally do not license or ordain deacons as I believe they are in a different category from Elders and consider it to be a lay position. I simply install them.