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What is the practical difference between Calvinism and Arminianism if God knows every event that will happen before the world began…
Anonymous
started this OP for old friend Ricky Grimsley THOUGH he had posted it before One problem with both arminianism and Calvinism is that one believes a loving God created man knowing most would burn in the lake of fire and the other believes he chooses people to burn eternally on the lake of fire. BUT what if the torment wasn’t eternal? What if the JWs are right on that? What if it is the destruction of the being? I know the bible speaks of the antichrist etc being tormented forever and he’s human but should be we infer that is the fate of all sinners….. Thought this would be interesting conversation this morning ? Peter A Peter Vandever undermined sanctification experience and holiness doctrine and you might as well be a baptist #calvinator but I do agree with you that my personal definition on a Pentecostal is strict for the devils also believe in Acts 2 and tremble but it does not make them #Pentecosta https://www.pentecostaltheology.com/one-problem-with-both-arminianism-and-calvinism/
Anonymous
perhaps John Digsby Philip Williams Skip Pauley John Mushenhouse Kyle Williams Duane L Burgess can do better on this one than me – quite frankly very concerned with tagging Link Hudson on this one after his last OSAS comment – this is where disp. brings you in a very Baptist way Oscar Valdez
Anonymous
Troy Day you are not making much sense.
Anonymous
Link Hudson well in all fairness I did not say any of this – just reminding what was being said by open theists through the years I AGREE it dont make much sense to me either – neither do some of your recent OSAS comments here BUT we will keep on trucking somehow anyways
Anonymous
Skip Pauley I will here once again RT Thangsan Hisfootstep who already stated:
God’s sovereign will vs man’s free will?
Anonymous
Again no one interacts with the real question. Let’a try again. Calvinism says that God ordains all things. Arminians say that God knows the whole future before creation but doesn’t change the future.
Anonymous
The practical difference is that Satan deceives people into thinking that they are not elect and cannot be saved leading many to depression, alcoholism, and suicide. The other danger is some think they are elect and nothing can change that so they become spiritually apathetic, some even turning to gross willful sin.
Anonymous
Michael Chauncey open theism sends more ppl to hell period Ricky Grimsley
Anonymous
Troy Day based on what
Anonymous
Ricky Grimsley Are open-theists going to hell? If so what can they do since God either… determined that they would be open-theists, or knew they would be open-theists and created them anyway. Seriously, though. How many would consider my position that God does not have exhaustive foreknowledge a “damnable heresy”. https://www.pentecostaltheology.com/is-open-theism-doomed/
Anonymous
Troy Day does anyone actually answer questions in this group.
Anonymous
Troy Day it is a minority view that is within evangelical, historical parameters.
It is a peripheral doctrinal debate that is not essential or salvific.
I expect a comment like this from a hyper-Calvinist who turns their view into a sect or cult, not a fellow free will relational theist.
I note you or whoever said hell likely misunderstand and misrepresent what you reject.
Anonymous
Troy Day that’s just baloney, Open Theism is the only view in which anyone has a possibility of salvation. In Calvinism their fate was sealed before birth.
Anonymous
Michael Chauncey Open Theism is the only view in which anyone can believe whatever they want and STILL claim they can be saved one day 🙂
Anonymous
Troy Day baloney again Open Theism isopposite of determinism. The future is the difference. In determinism the future is set in stone, fixed, and inflexible. In Open Theism, the future contains actual possibilities.
It is those who criticize Open Theism who claim we deny the foreknowledge of God or worse, they claim we deny his omniscience.
Anonymous
Michael Chauncey I agree open theism is baloney with mayo on a top A frontology NO one knew till about 20-30 years ago Never existed before
Anonymous
Troy Day apparently it was predestined to be and no one had any choice in the matter. Maybe, they just didn’t have a name for it yet. They used to call it. “A present help in time of trouble”
Anonymous
Michael Chauncey well JESUS was NO open theist
Anonymous
Troy Day of course he is. He will judge the just and unjust as of they have a choice to obey or rebel. He is omniscient but does not soverignly decree sinners to sin.
Anonymous
round and round another year goes by
Anonymous
John Digsby the wheels of the bus go…
Anonymous
Troy Day at least they go
Anonymous
Ricky Grimsley your questions may be too hard to answer even for Michael Chauncey Duane L Burgess Kyle Williams nonetheless Philip Williams Link Hudson
Anonymous
Troy Day it’s easy
Anonymous
Ricky Grimsley not for your but maybe for John Mushenhouse
Anonymous
Open Theism has been a significant topic in philosophy of religion and in evangelical Christian circles since the 1994 publication of The Openness of God: A Biblical Challenge to the Traditional Understanding of God by Clark Pinnock, Richard Rice, John Sanders, William Hasker, and David Basinger. Literally NO one in church history BEFORE 1990s new anything about it. The Church did JUST fine without open theism and so did Noah on the boat which Philip Williams openly theistically discovered
Anonymous
Troy Day you know what my dear friend Norm Geisler did about that! He later got on my boat, Noah’s Ark.
Anonymous
Philip Williams Norm Geisler was an open theists like Noah’s Ark?
Anonymous
Troy Day He was President of ETS, but resigned from ETS because they embraced Open Theists!
Anonymous
Those who get the Gospel right are Calvinists.
there are a multitude of false criticisms of Calvinism due to biblical illiteracy and pride.
Anonymous
NOT much proof from you on this one either Ricky Grimsley https://www.pentecostalnews.com/2023/04/26/is-open-theism-heretical/?fbclid=IwAR2_pyUPzg8HhltelkWUen2VixlvLUZ1paM1gioEEEEYfhsijBPuQVBapi0
Anonymous
Troy Day still no one wants to interact with the question I’m asking. Arminians are basically Calvinists. If God knows the future and he can’t learn…then all events are settled at creation.
Anonymous
Ricky Grimsley I answered your question 3 times but you keep silent
Anonymous
Troy Day well I’ll look for the answer in this next comment. Below
Anonymous
the 5 points of CALV which CALVIN did not set and was completely unaware OF
were demolished by the REMONSTRANTS – the Danish Reformation returned to the original pre-Luther reform expressed in the philip melenchon’s FREE WILL and The TRUE reformation of the Augsburg Confession At the Diet of Augsburg (1530) Melanchthon was the leading representative of the Reformation, and it was he who prepared the Augsburg Confession – LUTHER took money from the German princes and twisted the BIBLE on slavery and JEWS in their favor. Calvin returned the reformation to the CATHOLIC church by leaning so much on pro-Catholic Augustine Kyle Williams Duane L Burgess cannot deny this AND popish Philip agrees w/them We are still reluctant to respond to OSAS latest comments by Link Hudson they make NO sense for any true Pentecostal – not even for a free will baptistic #ohWell
Anonymous
Ricky Grimsley I answered your question 3 times but you keep silent I suspect you are out of ammo When Link Hudson gets there he responds with hahaha – a very sound theological terminology expressing the speakerS gone blues clues
Anonymous
Troy Day I’m not participating on this thread and I keep getting tagged.
I responded hahaha to the idea of Irenaeus supporting pre-trib. I debunked that a couple of times already. How can the tribulation be the church’s final trial he speaks of if the church doesn’t experience it?
Anonymous
Link Hudson pls show where you debunked it because all I remember is you cited some gnosticism secret knowledge website and in fact you failed to produce any proof that you have even read Irenaeus at all ALSO pls notice this post is NOT about Irenaeus – just wanted to clarify because lately you have been quite confused what post you comment on AND THEN you claim you debunked something but when I go to find it under the Irenaeus posts there is nothing by you – just like that YouTube video that got gone AND then I had to use special skills to locate it
Anonymous
Troy Day you can go back and look at posts from many months ago. I have enough on my plate in real lufe. The “gnostic” quote was from Irenaeus work as you well know.
Anonymous
Link Hudson Your purely gnostic quote was wrongly translated and full with typos – basically had nothing to do with the actual text beside the TITLE – This topic is on Calvinism and Arminianism? Any comment on why you keep on making OSAS statements this week like you jumped ship? I noticed your cog posts and not cog related either in general
Anonymous
Troy Day I did not make OSAS statements. I said freewill doesn’t save. Salvation is by faith in Jesus Christ. Jesus died for our sins. We didn’t get saved by willing it to be.
Anonymous
Link Hudson you asked me a very OSAS question – either you read it in some Baptist forum without realizing that it comes how calvinistic it was OR you just dont have a clue about basic Pentecostal theology – which one?
Anonymous
Troy Day i don’t lnow what the OSAS question was.
I think the question qas if you believe if one is once sanctified is a always saved? I was talking about the niche Holiness /Wesleyan idea of reaching sinless perfection at sanctification, not a traditional Baptist position
Anonymous
right right but it will be silly for me to remind you your own question
Anonymous
Open theism is used to explain the lack of omniscience by the OT Lord.
These are better explained as due to Israel’s Heavenly Messiah who created the world. Omniscience belongs to the Father alone!
False: Open Theism affirms God’s absolute omniscience. The difference is not in God’s attributes but in how time works. In determinism, the future is fixed and inflexible. In Open Theism the future contains actual possibilities.
Anonymous
i dont need open theism.
the future is fixed – where and when it needs to be, all else in between is human free will allowing humans to choose what they want to do.
yahweh in the OT
yahweh in Jesus
yahweh comes back.
you have a name<<<<<< to use because thats all thats left of "jesus" besides yahweh that was inside of the body named jesus.
Anonymous
Michael Chauncey see how John Digsby dont need open theism.
Anonymous
Troy Day dunno how to type it plainer than that.