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Arthur Douglas Jr | PentecostalTheology.com
What is our response to Predestination if God is no respecter of persons?
Charles Page [10/28/2015 6:14 PM]
Adam’s sin eliminated the hope of universalism. Our salvation can not be because God was a respecter of persons rather the fact that anyone was saved is amazing.
Jamil Thomas [10/28/2015 6:47 PM]
thank you, God be with you always
John Kissinger [10/28/2015 7:05 PM]
Charles you always omit from the discussion Adam’s first wife 🙂
Charles Page [10/28/2015 7:18 PM]
Pauline theology refers our sinful condition to Adam’s sin. Adam’s sin brought death, Eve’s sin brought with it conditional forgiveness.
John Kissinger [10/29/2015 1:13 PM]
first wife Charles [not Eve]
Charles Page [10/29/2015 3:39 PM]
IDK
John Kissinger [10/29/2015 3:40 PM]
http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/lecture-today-the-dead-sea-scrolls-as-indisputable-reference/
Jon Ray
Should it be none? Charles Page Ricky Grimsley
Charles Page
We Need A Biblical explanation
Charles Page
Let the Bible speak
Ricky Grimsley
“God being no respecter of persons” should only be understood that he uses us all according to whatever his will is. To believe that he treats everyone the same is ludicrous. John the baptist was filled with the holy ghost in the womb. Countless examples of people being chosen and talked to audibly. That seems hardly consistent with some amalekite kings or people.
Ricky Grimsley
Can we compare the conversion of Paul and say it is the same as ours?
Charles Page
Mine is
Ricky Grimsley
You saw a light and heard jesus speak, make you blind and go to a prophet to be healed?
Charles Page
Now that you put it that way – there were not any prophets to go to
Rico Hero
“So Peter opened his mouth and said: “Truly I understand that God shows no partiality, but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him” (Acts10:34-35)
“There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek.For God shows no partiality.” (Rom.2:9-11)
“knowing that whatever good anyone does, this he will receive back from the Lord, whether he is a bondservant or is free. Masters, do the same to them, and stop your threatening, knowing that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and that there is no partiality with him”(Eph.6:8-9)
“since it is written, “You shall be holy, for I am holy.” And if you call on him as Father who judges impartially according to each one’s deeds, conduct yourselves with fear throughout the time of your exile,”(1Pet. 1:16-17)
The above is in stark contrast to John Calvins belief:
“First, they ask why God is offended with his creatures who have not provoked him by any previous offense; for to devote to destruction whomsoever he pleases, more resembles the caprice of a tyrant than the legal sentence of a judge; and, therefore, there is reason to expostulate with God, if at his mere pleasure men are, without any desert of their own, predestinated to eternal death. If at any time thoughts of this kind come into the minds of the pious, they will be sufficiently armed to repress them, by considering how sinful it is to insist on knowing the causes of the divine will, since it is itself, and justly ought to be, the cause of all that exists. For if his will has any cause, there must be something antecedent to it, and to which it is annexed; this it were impious to imagine. The will of God is the supreme rule of righteousness, so that everything which he wills must be held to be righteous by the mere fact of his willing it. Therefore, when it is asked why the Lord did so, we must answer, Because he pleased.”
(institutes book 3 chapter 23)
Romeo Pelle
The biblical response to predestination is God’s FOREKNOWLEDGE.
Romeo Pelle
1 Peter 1:1-2 “To those who are elect exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.”
Romeo Pelle
Acts 2:23 “This man was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross.”
Romeo Pelle
Romans 8:29 “For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.”
Romeo Pelle
Whenever “foreknowledge” and “predestination/election” are in the same breath in the Scriptures, please note that “foreknowledge” precedes “predestination”!
Jon Ray
In your response FOREKNOWLEDGE seems to be the cause for predestination and not our response to it. We cannot FOREKNOW (IMHO). Then we must ask the question: FOREKNOWLEDGE and predestination but for what? Would you cite the Bible passages where you gain this understanding from? 1 Peter 1:1-2 cites “elect exiles” i.e. elect for an exile. Is this how you understand the church to be pre-elected – for an exile?
Ricky Grimsley
The problem with using romans 8:29 is he foreknows everyone according to idea yet he obviously does does not predestine every to be conformed because everyone isnt. So my opinion is that he foreknows how his plan has to work and predestines certain individuals to ensure the plan works. David? Jeremiah, Jesus, Paul to name a few. Blessed is the man to whom God will not impute sin.
Romeo Pelle
How about a missing comma: “Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God’s elect, exiles scattered..” (NIV);
Romeo Pelle
Even more clearer in Mounce’s Interlinear: “
Romeo Pelle
1 Peter 1 Mounce Reverse-Interlinear New Testament (MOUNCE)
Romeo Pelle
Ricky Grimsley: of course NOT all are predestined to become like Jesus: Only those whom God foreknew and predestined them according to His foreknowledge.
Jon Ray
And the rest are doomed to hell? BTW there are no commas in the original Greek text.
Rico Hero
Romeo Pelle , Rick Grimsley
The issue I have with the teaching of predestination of each individual before the foundation of the world—as stated by Calvinist or twisted to be more palatable by those preaching middle knowledge, is the many passages that clearly show God coming to know certain acts of the free wills. For example:
” I will go down and SEE wether they have done altogether according to the outcry that has comebto me. And if not, I WILL KNOW” (Gen.18:21)
12 And He said, “Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for NOW I KNOW that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.”(Gen.22:12)
31 When the Lord SAW that Leah was unloved, He opened her womb; but Rachel was barren.(Gen.29:31)
10 Then God SAW their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God relented from the disaster that He had said He would bring upon them, and He did not do it. (Josh3:10)
What is your response to the clear fact of God limiting his knowledge?
Jon Ray
OSAS is a straight forward heresy ‘nough said http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/to-those-embracing-once-saved-always-saved-osas/
Ricky Grimsley
If you are calvinist or arminian then you were OSAS from before the foundation of the earth either by God’s eternal decree or in his mind before he made you.
Charles Page
Most arminians are not OSAS
Ricky Grimsley
They wouldnt say they are but they have to be because God already decided even for them before creation.
Charles Page
what are you believing that you won’t say what it is?
Charles Page
that may very well fit us all! But we won’t say!
Rico Hero
Mainstream Arminianism has traditionally taught that the only way one can forfeit their salvation is through a permanent loss of faith. Therefore, Arminians deny unconditional predestination, believing that predestination is conditioned on the free-will choice of man.
It is only in those Arminians who see God as a materialess nothingness floating everywhere that tend to gravitate to God having middle knowledge so feel secure in that God knew they would choose to believe in adavnce and therefore cannot be lost.
The official AOG of America website states this :
. We agree with the Calvinist emphasis on God’s sovereignty or supreme power and authority. But we also firmly believe the Arminian emphasis on mankind’s free will and responsibility for his actions and choices. We believe the Bible teaches both truths.
Rico Hero
Mainstream Arminianism has traditionally taught that the only way one can forfeit their salvation is through a permanent loss of faith. Therefore, Arminians deny unconditional predestination, believing that predestination is conditioned on the free-will choice of man.
It is only in those Arminians who see God as a matterless nothingness floating everywhere that tend to gravitate to God having middle knowledge so feel secure in that God knew they would choose to believe in adavnce and therefore cannot be lost.
The official AOG of America website states this :
. We agree with the Calvinist emphasis on God’s sovereignty or supreme power and authority. But we also firmly believe the Arminian emphasis on mankind’s free will and responsibility for his actions and choices. We believe the Bible teaches both truths.
Tim Law
I believe God is surely big enough to know.
Ricky Grimsley
Its not about whether God is big enough. Its about whether or not God knows all events from before creation or not. If he does…calvinism and arminianism are basically the same.
Al Green
Of course he knows all events from before creation
Tim Law
Read Psalm 139:16, Isaiah 46:10
Ricky Grimsley
If he already knows then all is pointless. Its totally ridiculous to believe that God created everything knowing every detail of what would happen. What would be the purpose…..eternal torment of souls?
Jon Ray
God never changes. He remains the same. How can one remain the same while changing in knowledge?
Ricky Grimsley
God doesn’t change in character but he has emotions therefore he changes in knowledge.
Jon Ray
David Lewayne Porter How does 2 Peter 2:4 relate to this? For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment;
David Lewayne Porter
Jon Ray
I believe you replied to the wrong thread.
My 2 Peter 2:4 does not apply here because it is on another thread of another topic.
Jon Ray
Yes, but I was wondering how it relates to the pre-destined issue
Ricky Grimsley
It doesnt have to. He was predestined from before the foundation of the world to post on the wrong thread? Lol
Jon Ray
katalombano – foundation of the world of fall of the world(s)?
Ricky Grimsley
Thats what I believe. God decided to incarnate himself when either lucifer or adam fell. Not before.
Jon Ray
Which one: foundation OR fall of the world – mattes a little 🙂
Ricky Grimsley
The fall
Jon Ray
Yeah that changes all perception on things, doesnt it? David Lewayne Porter
Ricky Grimsley
Which God is the God of the bible? The one who created to have a family and when they fell he made a plan to woo them back to relationship with him……or the God who created the world with a future already set in stone. Its ridiculous to quote “that God is not willing that any should perish…”and turn around and say he created the world knowing every person that would go to hell but say he “wasnt willing”.
David Lewayne Porter
Future set in stone,, with us having freewill over our personal lives and choices.
You see Ricky Grimsley
I would have said BOTH, except you made and error.
The plan for fallen man was put into place before creation, not after the fall.
God wasn’t willing that any perish, (not ridiculous at all) that is why Calvary is there.
But he is not willing to have any of us to service Him by force. So he had Christ as a lamb Slain before He created the first thing (which by the way Christ created).
Ricky Grimsley
The error is only if you translate “foundation” as beginning. Still you are left with God who sentenced people to eternal hell by creating them since he already knew they would go there. The error is in the simultaneous belief of libertarian free-will and God’s exhaustive, unchangeable foreknowledge.
David Lewayne Porter
God did not sentence them to hell.
He gave them free-will and Calvary.
They got to choose.
Ricky Grimsley
You pull up to a railroad crossing, the arms are down and flashing, the signs are there with the warning, The signal is sounding, you hear the the train, you see the train. You get to choose to wait or cross and possibly get killed.
The choice is yours.
But wait, the railroad built the crossing knowing some people would get killed at it inspite of all of the safety and warning devices complete with warning signs.
So Ricky, is your death your fault, or the railroads that did all they could to keep you safe and warn you in advance and at that very time?
Remember they know that people will be killed at the crossings when they installed them.
But it was your choice to act foolishly in a way that got you killed.
So who is accountable, who is the culprit?
Ricky Grimsley
The analogy is flawed. Your view says that God knows, not that some people will go to hell, but every single person that will. There is no choice in that. In fact surely we know that the majority of people go to hell. I believe i am accountable. How can you believe that you are accountable if you are only doing what you were created to do. You’re choice is an illusion. All God had to do was have thoughts and played this whole scenario out in his head without having to punish people with hell.
David Lewayne Porter
The RxR crossing is an illustration to get you thinking more clearly (as the parables of Jesus). The parables breakdown as well if you look too closely at them. So the illustration stands – or it shows why you are having issues with it, ,,, you simply choose not to believe.
I believe you choose not to because of your very last statement, (without having to punish people in hell).
We discussed on another post the other day that ((eternal torment – hell, the lake that burneth with fire and brimstone both if these )) was created for the devil and his angels. Any human there is trespassing.
Let me ask this
Why would God not punish rebellion. Why would Be want people around Him for ask of eternity that rejected Him and his goodness while alive here on earth? Because they chose not to retain God in their knowledge God turned them over ((to themselves)). Love is hardest expressed in letting a loved one go to do as they wish ((tough love)).
Ricky Grimsley. Sinners going to hell are not doing what they are created to do. And yes God does know each and every one that will go to hell, and why they are going.
Those that go to hell ARE Rebellious and living ACCORDING to Their desires of self just like satan. They go of their own self-will. It is their choice in that.
You just simply don’t get the link between complete foreknowledge and within that foreknowledge loving us enough to give us total freewill to choose for ourselves. Any less is a weak, limited, frail (g)od. As far as the majority of people going to hell, yes exactly Jesus told us that (Jesus the God man, God in the flesh).
(You must have a major issue with folks like Saul/Paul when before God sent Ananias to heal him told Ananias that God would show Saul the things that he most suffer for my sake (suffer at the hands of others) and God,knew what, who, where, how before it happened, as Saul was being converted.
So much for Jeremiah’s birth, call, prophecy over him at the beginning.
And Noah – God knew that only Noah’s family would decide to get on the ark. (Since you like to use God and Abraham and also Sodom and Gomorrah to show your side) Sodom and Gomorrah – God stopped conversing with Abraham over sparing the city at 10 people being righteous before the deliverance of lot and the city’s destruction becsuse he knew ahead of time that there would only 4 leave of which 3 completed the journey. He knew ahead of time – shows why God will use hell – – it is used to purge out sin, evil, everything and one that defiles.
David Lewayne Porter
Jon Ray
No, it actually doesn’t change the prospective on things.
It only changes the prospect for those that do not have a complete view and understanding of an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent God, (and those too weak to hold on to their conviction as related to Him in that way).
Predestination was Him establishing a way inspite of the coming fall for us to be with Him for eternity. (This done before the foundation of the world). His freewill offering for us as individuals is not (e)ffected by this but is actually (a)ffected it.
Ricky Grimsley
Try this for posting on the wrong thread;
There is nothing accidental for a believer.
Psalms 91:11-12
For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways. They shall bear thee up in their hands, lest thou dash thy foot against a stone.
Even to the point of tripping over an object or stumping a toe.
And oh by the way Jesus did quote this giving it authenticity.
Jon Ray
Actually makes lots of difference if predestination is done before the foundation or before the fall of the worlds…
Ricky Grimsley
I just think it hilarious that we have these conversations when most of you believe the future is unchangeable. My faith isnt weak. I have real faith that God didnt condemn me to hell and that if I actually trust him and love him he can work all things out for my good. God cant work anything out if he already set it in stone before creation. Its pretty plain.
Ricky Grimsley
God is omniscient. He knows all that can be known. God is omnipotent. All power that is comes from him and he can do all things that can be done. Can God make me time travel back to 30 years ago and do some stuff different and leave the rest of the world alone. No be he can restore the years the cankerworm has eaten….and all that.
David Lewayne Porter
Yawn
Ricky Grimsley
Great. Why cant you see that exhaustive foreknowledge and predestination have no practical difference.
David Lewayne Porter
Because you omit free-will.
Jon Ray
Free will can be omitted only by the ones with free will 🙂