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Pastor Shane Brown gives a Bible-based teaching about the next event on God’s end-time table – the rapture of the church.
http://www.prayerfaithministry.com
Varnel Watson
James C. Morris while looking for your apendix I foudn this Dale Moody has written, “Dispensationalism with the modern form of seven dispensations, eight covenants, and a Pretribulation Rapture is a deviation that has not been traced beyond 1830.” Dale Moody, The Word of Truth (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1981), 555, quoted in Charles C. Ryrie, Dispensationalism (Chicago: Moody Press, 1995), 14-15. Daniel Fuller has similarly written: “Ignorance is bliss, and it may well be that this popularity [of dispensationalism] would not be so great if the adherents of this system knew the historical background of what they teach. Few indeed realize that the teaching of Chafer came from Scofield, who in turn got it through the writings of Darby and the Plymouth Brethren.” Daniel P. Fuller, “The Hermeneutics of Dispensationalism” (TH.D. dis., Northern Baptist Theological Seminary, Chicago, 1975), 136, quoted in Ryrie, Dispensationalism, 61. To these critics, never mind that there is ample evidence of dispensational-type thinking in the writings of the early fathers. See generally Larry V. Crutchfield, “Ages and Dispensations in the Ante-Nicene Fathers” Bibliotheca Sacra (October-December 1987). https://bible.org/article/theology-adrift-early-church-fathers-and-their-views-eschatology
James C. Morris
I wrote an entire book on this, Titled “Ancient Dispensational Truth.” It is available from dispensationalpublishing.com
Varnel Watson
James C. Morris Refuting the Myth that Dispensationalism is New Paperback they have it at my Target The threadbare argument that dispensational teaching is “new” has been the propaganda of anti-dispensationalists for decades, and many actually believe it. In this fascinating journey through the early Christian writings, James C. Morris demonstrates that dispensational teaching is as old as the church itself.
Many attempt to discredit dispensationalism by claiming that the church never taught it before around 1830. Such a claim is ridiculous, for proof that any particular idea was never taught in any particular time period would require an exhaustive examination of every teaching that took place during that period. Even for a relatively short period of time, such an exhaustive search is manifestly impossible, much less for nearly eighteen centuries.
But this claim involves a serious falsehood. This is that the accuracy or error of a doctrine can be determined on the basis of how long men have taught it. We have no right to base our ideas on anything other than the word of God itself. Anything less that this is a false foundation.
The purpose of the present study is to examine numerous instances of dispensational doctrine that were clearly taught in some of the very oldest Christian writings on Bible prophecy that have survived to the present day, as well as in numerous other truly ancient Christian writings.
Lito Nartéa
Pretribulation rapture contradicts 1&2 Thes, Mat. 24 & 25, and the entire book of Revelation.
Varnel Watson
Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
Lito Nartéa
Rev. 3:10 doesn’t say pretribulation rapture Troy, in fact the same book says an innumerable great multitude came out of the great tribulation there in Rev. 7:9-14. God kept them from the hour of temptation because they 7 last plagues were not poured out on the elect. And btw, there is no mention of rapture in the book of Revelation.
Varnel Watson
Lito Nartéa it says what it says Now live with it
Lito Nartéa
I believe God will keep them from the hour, but not by pretribulation rapture. Why? Because there is a quota to be filled. Read it in Rev. 6:10-11,
Rev 6:10 They called out in a loud voice. “How long, Lord and King, holy and true?” they asked. “How long will you wait to judge those who live on the earth? How long will it be until you pay them back for killing us?”
Rev 6:11 Then each of them was given a white robe. “Wait a little longer,” they were told. “There are still more of your believing brothers and sisters who must be
If they will be raptured then how will the quota be filled Troy? In fact no rapture is mentioned in the book of Revelation.
Wal Ters
Troy’s words:
”it says what it says Now live with it”
It sounds funny to me that Troy uses this phrasing , because actually the Bible does NOT SAY anything he promotes here in the group. On the contrary, the Bible DOES SAY that rapture is at the second coming of Christ, plainly and clearly!
Lito Nartéa
Yep. What Wal said.
Mike Lind
Lito Nartéa Matthew 24 and 25 has nothing to do with the rapture of the church….it has absolutely nothing to do with the church except for us coming back with the Lord looking like the clouds of heaven and us blocking out the light of the sun moon and stars..
And it pretty much has to do with Israel Gods elect
Matthew 25 deals with the Lord coming from the marriage and redeeming the 144000 and then the judgement of the goat nations after the Lord comes back…separating the sheep which are those who helped the jews through the great tribulation and the goats who did nothing and helped satan fight against the jews during that time
Martin Snaak
De uitleg van Amir tsarfati zegt genoeg.einde discussie.
Shallom Hakuna
Is rapture biblical, or It’s just a theory
Lito Nartéa
Yes it is Biblical read 1 Thes. 4 and 5 but not the pretrib kind
John McDonald
It is an unbiblical theory.
Shallom Hakuna
Lito Nartéa .I agree with you If you mean the gathering of believers of Christ,as the end begins. Not pre tribulation one-thus a theory.
Lito Nartéa
Yep the Biblical rapture in 1 Thes. 4 is called gathering in 2 Thes. 2, also gathering in Mat. 24.
Josh Word
Yes, it’s a fulfillment of Duet 30. Timing is the main disagreement.
Lito Nartéa
So in summary rapture is in the Bible John, specifically in 1Th 4:17,
After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
But it’s the post-tribulation kind as stated in 2Th 2.
Kent Anderson
He forgot about Moses ….lol….just another lecture on the SOS,
Varnel Watson
aint seen you giving a better one yet
Kent Anderson
Moses was a part of the Transfiguration seen by his followers…..Moses is certainly a shadow of Messiah
Kent Anderson
and what did Enoch do anyway?…he walked with God and that is it?…..no account of anything, so I guess he was the first lucky one, just put on your sandals and believe and whoosh up up and away…..
Varnel Watson
Kent Anderson so you dont Believe ENOCH was raptured? Oh well Go read your BIBLE do you even believe the BIBLE says Encho was raptured?
Varnel Watson
John McDonald IF it is unbiblical then what is it doing in the BIBLE ?
Lito Nartéa
It’s doing a postrib.
Varnel Watson
Lito Nartéa only left behind may do postrib
Lito Nartéa
Wait, I thought left behind movie is pretrib
Jef Mendiola
The word rapture is not in the book of revelation but the event is implied like in Revelation 4 and 5
John McDonald
It is NOT in the Bible.
Harold Goldman
Fairy tales can come true it could happen to you if your young at heart
Varnel Watson
when you get LEFT BEHIND you will learn fast
Michael Anthony Furtado
I sincerely believe that Jesus Christ would have utterly despised the pre-tribulation theory.
Samuel Garcia
except He literally divides when He reads Isaiah, and also His life literally has a gap (ie not all Messianic prophecies happened at His birth, some happened at His death, so why do you expect all Second Coming prophecies to happen in one day?)
Varnel Watson
Samuel Garcia except in Rev 3/10 Jesus Christ Himself speaks of it to the churches Oh well
Wilfred Bwire
Pre trib Rapture is false. 100 percent
Varnel Watson
oh WOW well you just summed it up That is your global assumption based on absolutely no proof You are false – 100%
Wilfred Bwire
Troy Day its biblical proof open your Holy Bible read Rev 20:4-6 what’s the first RESURRECTION which is Rapture and when does it happen before the mark of the beast or after. The answer is in there
Back up with Rev 7:9-17
Varnel Watson
Wilfred Bwire RESURRECTION is not Rapture GO read 1 Thes 4 again to gain a better perspective
Wilfred Bwire
Troy Day what’s the first RESURRECTION if it’s not Rapture the same verses says the rest of the people will not live until the Millennium is done.
Varnel Watson
Wilfred Bwire that actually makes absolutely NO theological sense Next you will be telling the antiCHrist has already passed
Wilfred Bwire
Troy Day So who are those in the first RESURRECTION who will be with the LORD in the Millennium coz only those in the first RESURRECTION will live in 1000 yrs of the reign of CHRIST
Dave Holdway
What a mixed up piece of prophetic exegesis this is!
Completely dismaying.
Tribulation and wrath confused, future antichrist, nuts!
Varnel Watson
yes
it is prophetic
it is exegesis
It is Biblical and good
Do you have anything better to offer ?
Dave Holdway
Troy Day yes.
Varnel Watson
Dave Holdway lets see your past antiChrist Give us what you got for so far you have shown nothing worth giving
Varnel Watson
Dave Holdway are you even aware of this? https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/project/programming-dna-circuits/
Varnel Watson
fake news
Rob Burr
What this pentecostal preacher needs is a solid injection of history from Babylon onward.
In fact beginning with Egypt and Abraham would be even better, because the Daniel timeline has a retro timeline which goes right back to Abraham.
What’s more, he would learn who the last beast ‘antichrist’ is, the identity of the Whore City and a few other things.
One thing he has got right (about the only thing) is that the rapture is imminent and that is because Jesus is returning VERY soon.
Varnel Watson
why Pentecostals in particular? The rapture is pretty much DTS baptist teaching in the US ; do you have something against Pentecostals or you just felt like its OK to ad hominem for breakfast ? looks like another auzie knows it all RichardAnna Boyce
Rob Burr
Troy Day most futurists, pre, post, future millennialists and some dispensationalist need a history lesson. In this case I was just addressing the speaker.
However I find it particularly disturbing that those brothers and sisters who profess to have experienced physical manifestations of the Holy Spirit, are following those who have not been so anointed and their false prophetic teaching. Following John Nelson Darby, Hal Lindsey and a plethora of futurists teaching a future 7 year tribulation, a future antichrist (supposedly not yet seen) and another millennium ending in the same way as our current one is unfolding.
It makes NO SENSE.
Where is the prophetic discernment or even a basic understanding of Israel history?
Where is the reflection on the lives and teaching of the Old Testament prophets and their visions? Visions which kicked off Israel’s trials and tribulations 2,600 years ago?
Perhaps it is the teaching that suggests that there was no Holy Spirit anointing before the Pentecost of Jesus’ passion that is holding people back. Perhaps people are being taught wrongly about tongues and not acknowledging the Shechinah experience of the OT.
Whatever it is, there are problems in the house of the very elect.
Varnel Watson
Wilfred Bwire lets start with What is the Difference Between the Rapture
and the Second Coming?
I Cor 15:50-54, Rev 19:11-16
The topic of Bible prophecy and the end times is a fascinating subject.
One thing that makes it particularly interesting is that we are talking about things that we will have a part
of.
The sequence of events is: Rapture, Tribulation, Second Coming of Christ, Millennium, New Heaven
and New Earth.
The subject we are looking at in this lesson is an area that is often confused.
The Rapture and the Second Coming of Christ are often confused. Sometimes it is difficult to determine
whether a Scripture is referring to the Rapture or the Second Coming.
For us to understand the scriptures clearly, it is very important to differentiate between the two.
____________________
As an example of how two separate – but connected – events can be confused:
In the Old Testament, there were 2 different pictures painted of the Messiah: one suffering (Ps 22:6-8,11-
18; Isa 53:2-10) and one reigning as King (Ps 2:6-12; Zech 14).
Sometimes, a single passage is a prophecy of both: Isa 61:1,2, only 1/2 of which Jesus read and said was
fulfilled in Luke 4:18-21.
Isaiah 61:1-2
1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings
unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the
opening of the prison to them that are bound;
2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that
mourn;
As we study the scriptures, we see they predicted two separate comings of the Messiah: the first coming
as a suffering Messiah and the second coming (still future) as a reigning King.
_________________
There are several main passages to read when looking at differences between the events of the rapture and
the events of our Lord’s Second Coming.
– The rapture passages are 1 Thessalonians 4-5 and 1 Corinthians 15.
– The passages concerning the Second Coming are Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, Zechariah 14
and Revelation 19.
___________________
One thing that we need to keep in mind, which will help us to rightly divide God’s Word, is to ask
ourselves whether the passage is talking about Israel or the church. They are not the same.
Matthew 24 is often quoted referring to the rapture, but it is clearly talking about Israel.
During the tribulation the church will be gone and God’s attention is once again on Israel, as He is
bringing them to Him.
That seven years of the tribulation is necessary to fulfill the final seven years of Daniel’s prophecy or the
70 weeks.
Why is it important to keep the Rapture and the Second Coming distinct?
(1) If the Rapture and the Second Coming are the same event, believers will have to go through the
Tribulation. Even though they are promised to be rescued from wrath. (1 Thessalonians 5:9;
Revelation 3:10).
(2) If the Rapture and the Second Coming are the same event, the return of Christ is not
imminent…there are many things which must occur before He can return (Matthew 24:4-30).
(3) In describing the Tribulation period, Revelation chapters 6-19 nowhere mention the church.
During the Tribulation, God will again turn His primary attention on Israel (Romans 11:17-31).
There are some key things that we need to keep in mind.
I. Location of Christians
The first difference to observe is the location of Christians for the events.
In the rapture, believers are called to meet Christ in the air. (1 Thessalonians 4:17)
In an instant the dead in Christ will rise and the believers who are left will then be called away.
In the case of the Second Coming, Christ returns with angels and thousands upon thousands of His holy
ones. (Revelation 19:14).
He sets foot on the Mount of Olives and Battles the armies gathered against Him in the Valley of
Armageddon.
This can be seen in Rev 16:16, 17:14, 19:11-19. Zech 14
Those who teach a post-tribulation return come up with the Yo-Yo problem.
Christians would be raptured to meet the Lord in the air and then immediately descend to earth with
Him.
This is a mistake many make because they do not look at the other differences surrounding the two
events.
II. Who Does He Return With?
The next difference is who will be with Christ.
When the rapture is described we see Christ returning alone.
When the Second Coming occurs, Christ returns with angels and Christians.
Jude 14-15 describes this as well as Zech 14
“And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his
saints,
15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which th
Wilfred Bwire
Troy Day The Rapture and the second coming are same . That what you call Rapture is nowhere in Bible it’s only second coming we are saying for.
Claro Magallanes
The pretribulation rapture is not what Christianity thinks it is because of their wrong notions of the great tribulation period.
Daniel Farris
I haven’t noticed anyone teaching here on the 2nd Greater Exodus that is mentioned in our Bible Scriptures.The Father God told us HE would show us the END from the BEGINNING!! So what happened in the Beginning,,,perhaps the FIRST EXODUS,,,you know the one out of Egypt! Monte Judah explains this 2nd GREATER EXODUS better than any other I have yet heard & there are a lot of good teachings on this subject. He has a Book out that I have read twice now & full of scripture so you can prove this evidence of this 2nd Greater Exodus.He has a short version on YouTube but even better get his book off of his ministry website http://www.LionandLambMinistry.org ! Shalom ???
Shane Mccall
How is it on God’s end time table when the teaching is not even found in the Bible??
You have to interpret so much scripture to teach it. Teaching it is a man’s teaching and not God’s Word.
Melanie Michele
https://www.thepropheticyears.com/reasons/rapture.htm
Wilfred Bwire
Melanie Michele pre trib is false Read Rev 20:4-6 and Rev 7:9-17
Melanie Michele
Wilfred Bwire .
The link I provided rightly divides and reveals that the rapture is pretrib.
Melanie Michele
Wilfred Bwire
Those verses are about the left behind saints.
Wilfred Bwire
Melanie Michele hahaa those verses really did you really read them I guess not.
Wilfred Bwire
Melanie Michele
Those two chapters disqualify all pretrib theory.
Melanie Michele
Wilfred Bwire
Ok we’ll agree to disagree.
Melanie Michele
Wilfred Bwire
Please read the article very carefully. God bless.
Wilfred Bwire
Melanie Michele also read those scriptures I sent you.
Melanie Michele
Wilfred Bwire
I did. Thank you
Steve Conley
-Warning- False teaching in OP
Why the Rapture is neither Imminent nor Pretrib
There is a same day connection between the rapture and the eschatological wrath of God which takes place in the day of the Lord. That means that there are preconditions for the rapture of the church and the rapture follows the great tribulation. Let me explain.
First, I want to affirm that the Scriptures are explicit about the fact that God’s elect (all those in Christ) are not going to experience His wrath in the day of the Lord (1Thes 5:9). Also, let me affirm that before the Lord’s wrath is poured out upon the unbelieving world, He will resurrect the dead in Christ, change those believers who remain alive, and AFTER THAT catch us up to be with Himself in the clouds. This catching up is what we call the rapture. It is the fulfillment of Christ’s promise to “come again and receive [us] unto [himself]”(Jn 14:3). There indeed will be a rapture of the church before the wrath of God commences, in the day of the Lord.
Many are correct in thinking that those who are saved in Christ will be rescued before the wrath of God falls unexpectedly upon the unbelieving. However, many fail to understand all the implications of Christ’s words, especially those recorded in Luke 17:26-30, where Jesus makes three important points.
Luk 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
Luk 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
First, we see that the lost world, who will be going about their business, as usual, will be caught by surprise by the wrath of God at Christ’s revelation. Just as the preaching of the flood was rejected and unexpected by the unbelieving in Noah’s day, so shall the wrath of God in the day of the Lord be unexpected by the unbelieving. Just as many in Lot’s extended family in Sodom did not believe the warning and were caught unawares, along with all the wicked, by the divine destruction of those evil cities, so shall it be at Christ’s coming.
• The first point that Christ makes is that God’s wrath comes unexpectedly upon the apathetic, unbelieving world.
The point that Christ makes next is that before God’s eschatological wrath falls, the righteous are rescued. Noah and his family are shut up in the ark safe from the flood and Lot and his two daughters are removed from the area of divine wrath. So shall the righteous be, at the revelation of Christ. We shall be resurrected, changed, and raptured to Him in the clouds before the first stroke of His eschatological wrath falls.
• The second point is that we will be rescued before He pours out His wrath.
The final point that Christ brings home is that the very day of our rescue will be the day that His wrath begins to fall. Notice that He said that the unbelieving continued business as usual “until the day” that Noah went into the ark. Again, He said, “the same day” that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone. This is a clear indication that His wrath is connected with our rescue. The very day of our rapture will be the day His wrath begins to fall upon the unbelievers. This beginning of the pouring out of His wrath takes place on the day of Christ’s revelation following the catching up of the saints, all on the very same day.
• The third point that Christ makes is that the day of our rescue is the day when His wrath begins. That day, is the beginning day of the eschatological period of time known as “the day of the Lord.”
The REVELATION of Christ in the clouds with the mighty angels is the first act of Christ in the day of the Lord (2Thes 1:6-10; Matt 24:30; 1Cor 1:7; Rev 1:7). Upon that day, unexpectedly to the world, Christ is revealed, we are rescued from persecution, and God begins to persecute (tribulate) those who persecuted us (2Thes 1:6-10).
What are some of the implications of these three important truths from Luke 17:26-30?
1) We are removed from the earth first, before God’s wrath falls.
2) The lost are caught by surprise by the wrath of God due to their unbelief. They did not heed the warnings.
3) There is a hard, same day, connection between the rapture and the “day of the Lord” wrath of God.
4) This “same day” connection between the rapture and the wrath makes all the prophetic signs associated with the day of the Lord also true concerning the rapture.
5) Since there are many preconditions (Joel 2:10, 31; Matt 24:9-31; Mal 4:5; 2Thes 2:3; etc) which must take place before the day of the Lord can come, the same serve as preconditions for the rapture.
6) If there are preconditions for the rapture, and there are, then the teaching of an imminent (any moment) rapture is inherently unbiblical and false.
7) All these things being true, the only reference to the “catching up” gathering of Christ’s own unto Himself, that has explicit language indicating the timing of the rapture in relation to the great tribulation, is Matt 24:31. There we see that it comes AFTER the great tribulation is cut short (vss 22, 29), but before His wrath falls in the day of the Lord.
The rapture takes place at some unknown point in the second half of the week after the unprecedented persecution of the saints (great tribulation), but before God’s wrath in the day of the Lord falls upon the unbelieving, beast worshiping, earth-dwellers.
Glory be unto the Lord, Christ Jesus.
Varnel Watson
ATT ALL ADMINS heretical reformed calvinator who does not read OP but comments heresy under each post as a troll #BEAWARE #heretic 3 first points and basically 0 theology Makes NO theological sense Gloria de Dios
Robert David Van Meter
Troy Day you think Calvinist are heretics?
Steve Conley
Troy Day Where do you get the idea that I’m a Calvinist?
Varnel Watson
Steve Conley your circular logic shows clearly
RichardAnna Boyce
Free Grace says that four passages in the NT discuss the rapture in detail: Jon 14:1-3; 1 Cor 15:51-54; 1 Thes 4:13-18; Phil 3:20-21. and Matt 24:36-44
Varnel Watson
what does this has to do with RAPTURE?