Spiritual Mapping

Spiritual Mapping
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SPIRITUAL MAPPING

Proponents of the fight against territorial spirits engage in ‘Spiritual Mapping’ – a research tool meant to determine what is wrong with a specific community or geographic area.

They may discover, for example, that a certain neighborhood plagued by crime is home to a fortune teller — leading them to engage in Strategic Level Spiritual Warfare against the ‘Spirit of Witchcraft.’ Should the fortune teller’s business fold or move elsewhere, those who engaged in spiritual warfare expect to see positive signs, such as a lower crime rate, and more people accepting Jesus Christ.

[A] global movement of evangelicals has developed … that seeks to free cities and neighborhoods from social scourges even as it “takes them for God.”

Through “spiritual warfare” and an in-depth research effort called “spiritual mapping,” they aim to bring people to Christ and, in their words, “break spiritual strongholds” holding communities in their grip, whether they be vices, “false religions,” or “territorial spirits.”

The more aggressive, potentially confrontational aspects of these practices raise concerns within and beyond the evangelical community.
[…]

Mapping is the research tool – “the discipline of diagnosing the obstacles to revival,” and it answers the questions: “What is wrong with my community? Where did the problem come from? What can be done to change things?” says George Otis Jr. Mr. Otis, president of The Sentinel Group, in Seattle, produced the “Transformations” video and has written a handbook on mapping: “Informed Intercession: Transforming Your Community Through Spiritual Mapping and Strategic Prayer.”

He has visited cities worldwide and offers pastors a road map, including questions on the spiritual history and dynamics of their cities. They should gather, for example, detailed information on the status of Christianity, prevailing “social bondages,” historical events that caused trauma, predominant philosophies and religions, and human groups and demonic powers that pose spiritual opposition.

Otis points to vivid examples in the Americas:

In Hemet, Calif., a new pastor began noting on a map sites where what he believed to be negative spiritual influences were located: controversial religious centers, cults, youth gangs, and the West Coast’s largest methamphetamine manufacturing facilities.

After years of research and targeted prayer, participants say, drug production has been dramatically reduced and corrupt police have been fired, gang members have converted, the “power of a demonic strongman” was broken, cults left town or were burned out, and Christians are in key leadership positions.

In Cali, Colombia, home of the infamous drug cartel, pastors carried out a spiritual mapping campaign “gathering intelligence on political, social, and spiritual strongholds” in each of the city’s 22 administrative zones. They began holding all-night prayer vigils involving thousands in the soccer stadium.

When vigils were followed by periods without homicides and the arrests of major cartel leaders, “a new openness to the Gospel was felt at all levels of society,” and churches began to see “explosive growth.”
– Source: Targeting cities with ‘spiritual mapping,’ prayer, by Jane Lampman, Christian Science Monitor, Sep. 23, 1999

54 Comments

  • Reply February 21, 2019

    Varnel Watson

    this issue seems to be coming again and again @isara mo Philip Williams we may need to look into it more

  • Reply February 22, 2019

    Joe Mungai

    This strange tool is quite unsupported by scripture. It has limited effectiveness because it is sin centric as opposed to the gospel of Christ which is holiness centric.
    If we can only teach the word and let all ministry, prophecy and deliverance emmanate from the Word of God, we can have what Jesus called “lasting fruit”.

    In my personal experience, the fruit obtained from territorial spiritual mapping doesn’t last, it soon fizzles out.
    My discomfort with this is how Christians end up knowing more about Satan than about Jesus Christ.
    We have seen preachers name demons by name.
    We have seen people develop entire theologies based on revelations they’ve had in the night.
    We have seen pastors and others converse with demons.
    All of these contra scriptural practices have their roots in the slippery slope of spiritual mapping.
    In Rev 2:24, the Spirit warns us about “knowing the depths of Satan”
    Let us just teach the word, exalt Jesus, resist the devil and the devil will flee.
    Spiritual mapping?
    Jesus didn’t do it and He is our Apostle and example.
    The Apostles didn’t do it, and they are our pattern….

    • Reply February 23, 2019

      Isara Mo

      Joe Mungai Excuse me before we proceed with the discussion can you tell me if you do deliverance or have ever battled with forces of evil…or do you only preach and teach the Good News only?
      May I ask, how can you fight an enemy you don’t know? Before the USA invaded Sadam Hussein they HAD ample data, information, knowledge OF THE ENEMY…before they invaded Iraq…
      How can you fight the devil if you don’t know him?..How can a real businessman enter into a business without a feasibility study?..
      Someone may have all the information about Jesus and his ministry in fact you may have ALL the information about Jesus and yet fail to cast out even a demon…or heal the sick ..
      Mere teaching and preaching of the Word without the power of the Holy Spirit is simply nice religious stuff…There is no nicety in warfare..Joe.
      I fully support and wholly praise and encourage those who do spiritual warfare….because it is real and it is there..
      Their diligent efforts have given us important information on enemy kingdom..and much of it we use to drive away the enemy.
      Most of those who don’t engage the enemy (just like those who dont speak in tongues) wil try to find a way out and defending themselves…they must have excuses to justify their doctrinal positions.
      Like you have said above “Jesus didn’t do it..the apostles didn’t do it..it is not in the Bible…etc.etc.
      Others have said ” wait until Jesus comes back…You are glorifying the devil etc etc.Very discouraging stuff…
      Satan loves this kind very much…
      But Joe inspite of all the “holiness” centred preaching and teachings we hear and see around I don’t see much of the so called ” lasting fruit…neither tangible victories in the churches…Can holiness deliver a demon possessed man or break a curse or enable a confused mind to receive the word of God?
      When John and Peter ” delivered” the crippled man they confessed this ” it is not by our HOLINESS …this man has been healed…but..??
      Mapping is important..very important…esp spiritual mapping

    • Reply February 23, 2019

      Joe Mungai

      Isara Mo, you read all that in my answer? How? Why? Where?
      What you have written is entirely your construct and I refuse to address it.

    • Reply February 23, 2019

      Joe Mungai

      Oh, and one more thing, I am yet to see evidence of this mapping from scripture….show me anywhere in the book of Acts where it was applied:
      A. Where the actual preaching of the Word had failed.
      B. Where they keenly studied Satan in order to convert people.

      Go ahead, convince me, and don’t put words where they aren’t.

    • Reply February 24, 2019

      Joe Mungai

      The greatest misunderstanding is that casting out demons, deliverance and all that showy stuff is better that teaching the word of God. There is that old testament mentality that says that showy stuff is what we are called to do. Miracles, signs and wonders.
      But a proper reading of scripture, especially New Testament writ shows that it is preaching and teaching the word of God that is the Crux of “Go Ye…”
      There is an assumption in many people that standing for hours speaking words into the atmosphere in the name of Jesus is spiritual warfare. I do not believe it is. It is just what it is, standing and shouting. Nowhere in scripture do we see a person stand and speak into the air for hours.
      The assumption here is that Satan dwells in the atmosphere, like the clouds and birds. This is based on an immature reading of Ephesians 6.

      Casting out demons is not, and should not be a mark of how spiritual a person is or how his ministry is to be rated henceforth. No, casting out demons is just that; casting out demons.
      The Pharisees did it, and Jesus testified that they did Matt 12:27.
      The sons of Sceva were sons of a Jewish exorcist, and exorcist is someone who casts out devils. Acts 19:13

      But the teaching of the Word….that is warfare. Casting out the devil is nothing, it is the FILLING OF THAT HOUSE WITH A NEW OCCUPANT THAT MATTERS. Matt 12:43-45.
      Teaching the Word. Expounding Jesus. Seizing the Great Sword of the Spirit before God’s people verse by verse, revelation by revelation, prophecy by prophecy, word of wisdom by word of wisdom, word of knowledge by word of knowledge….that is warfare. And there is none like it.
      To teach people to know Jesus. The Sword of the Spirit, The Word of God is quick, sharp….

      So that the people of God can be delivered out of familiar spirits.
      So that the people of God can be delivered from the little sins that invite Satan.
      So that the people of God can put on the whole armor of God, mature, upright, able to stand and apt to teach.
      How many devils did Acts cast out? Not more that ten instances of cast out devils.
      But the church kept on growing, God adding to it every day.

  • Reply February 22, 2019

    Varnel Watson

    Why is this practice not working for you?

    • Reply February 22, 2019

      Joe Mungai

      Since it has so little scriptural support, it is rather Open to abuse.
      Secondly, it gives too little credit to man for sin and sets too much emphasis on Satan and demons. Whereas, by experience, the first responsibility for sin is man.

      The prayer meetings based on breaking down the identified strongholds do ignite a flame, but without the consistent teaching of the word, the fire soon dies out like the seed in the parable of the sower.
      It is the Word of God that gives depth.
      So, as a rule, I just teach Jesus. Nothing else. And Jesus is usually enough for even the most bound of men

    • Reply February 22, 2019

      Varnel Watson

      THE Bible shows territorial spirits no?

    • Reply February 22, 2019

      Joe Mungai

      For example?

    • Reply February 22, 2019

      Varnel Watson

      the princes in Daniel

    • Reply February 23, 2019

      Joe Mungai

      I will not at all deny the idea of territorial spirits, but there is always andanger of developing a doctrine out of a single obscure verse of scripture.
      Besides that, appearances can be deceiving.
      Where I come from, my tribe is very upright. Our culture contains many things that are almost biblical.
      Our tribe worships one god. He made the heavens and the earth.
      Trying to map this place can be tough, simply because we are so upright.
      Indeed, the missionaries who came were so enamoured with this tribal god that when translating scripture, they named the God of Israel, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, they named Him in the name of the tribal god.
      Only a small minority really understand the danger, and that minority doesn’t understand that danger based on spiritual mapping, but because they are filled with the Holy Ghost and have known their God.
      Jesus himself never bothered to know what ilk of devil was tormenting someone. He just cast the devil out.
      He did not name the devil,
      He did not have a discussion with the devil,
      He just cast the vike one out.
      And so did the Apostles.

    • Reply February 23, 2019

      Varnel Watson

      not too sure it is so simple theology though

    • Reply February 23, 2019

      Joe Mungai

      ?

    • Reply February 23, 2019

      Varnel Watson

      yes – it is worth thinking about By discarding territory / national spirits we discard much of demonology

    • Reply February 23, 2019

      Isara Mo

      Joe Mungai
      How do you cast demons out?

    • Reply February 23, 2019

      Isara Mo

      Joe Mungai
      When i hear the words ” the president of the United States of America” i understand them to mean a ruler, king or authority of a geographical physical area named America ..
      In the Bible we read the words ” the prince of Persia…the prince of Greece” referring to spritual entities in the heavenly realm over a physical dimension…
      When Jesus interviewed the demon possessed man of Gadara or rather the demons in the man(Jesus interrogated demons) the demons asked AGAIN AND AGAIN not to sent OUT OF THE TERRITORY ..why?
      Have you ever wondered why is it in some areas of this world the good news is easily received while in some areas it is just next to impossible to penetrate…
      Is it just peoples hard heart of un belief ?

    • Reply February 23, 2019

      Varnel Watson

      I still see it as quite important doctrine

    • Reply February 23, 2019

      Joe Mungai

      Isara Mo, please, give me examples from the Bible that are actual, direct references to mapping.
      The prince of Greece or of Persia are, in this discourse, opaque and unhelpful.
      Show me somewhere where actual mapping happened and human wisdom and knowledge helped spread the gospel.
      Since we are taking about spreading the gospel, I suggest you start with the New Testament.
      Spiritual Warfare, which is not a term I find in scripture but am using because you used it and assume it means quarreling devils, spiritual warfare is not a zero sum game.

    • Reply February 24, 2019

      Varnel Watson

      Writing the introductory chapter to C. Peter Wagner’s book, Breaking Spiritual Strongholds In Your City – originally published in 1993 but revised and reissued in 2015 – George Otis, Jr., the man who introduced this nomenclature to the church, defined the technique.

      “In 1990, I coined a term for this new way of seeing – ‘spiritual mapping’ – now the central theme of this book. It involves, as I have suggested, ‘Superimposing our understanding of forces and events in the spiritual domain onto places and circumstances in the material world.” George Otis, Jr.

    • Reply February 24, 2019

      Joe Mungai

      This tool therefore is too young to merit any defense Troy Day,
      My mantra is this: if something is true, then it’s in the Bible, and if it’s in the Bible then it’s not new. But if it’s new, then it’s not in the Bible, and if it’s not in the Bible, then it’s a lie.

    • Reply February 24, 2019

      Varnel Watson

      Demon casting is not in the OT at all
      So we cannot talk about it there

      In the NT JESUS ministry was the first to introduce demon casting

      Jesus cast demons out before and during ministering to a city

      Paul and the apostles dealt with the demonic travelling systematically from city to city

      John in Revelation traveled the map of the 7 churches systematically naming and dealing with the demons that hindered them Some of Jezebel even within the actual church

    • Reply February 24, 2019

      Joe Absher

      Isn’t Jesus Ministry under the old testament / old covenant. Jesus implied John Baptist authority came from heaven when answering the Pharisees. And that his authority did too. So in my mind there is still much to discover concerning spiritual authority and pulling down strongholds and effective prayer. Granted there has been presumption but think of the power gifts such as “special” faith. Mountain moving faith and the divine call. Remember nation’s rise and nation’s fall and God has a say in it all.

    • Reply February 24, 2019

      Isara Mo

      Joe Mungai True,
      Spiritual mapping is not a word you will find in the Bible so is the word DNA yet these words are rhere…have been there but only now do we use them to explain things…For me the verse ” in the beginning God created the heavens and earth…” encompasses ALL that we know and we will know..including Spiritual Mapping.
      I don’t find the word digestive system in the Bible but when God told Adam you will eat…the digestive system was already in place…
      My brother IS EVERYTHING IN THE BIBLE.?.YES according to the verse I have given you…IS EVERYTHING REVEALED?NO…piece by piece, day by day…God reveals…
      Law of Gravity or law of motion are not written in the Bible but these laws have been lying there all the time until men ” discovered”…them.
      I wouldn’t want us to discuss or argue from a viewpoint raised ” that it is not in the Bible…”
      What does the Canons say?
      If everything was written down of what the Lord Jesus did(spiritual mapping included ? there wouldn’t have been enough space in the whole world to house or hold or store the books…..
      These things(the minimal…that is given us in the four gospels) was such that we believe Christ is Son of God…
      So plse don’t let us limit God because of what we know, …let Him reveal what He knows.

  • Reply February 24, 2019

    Varnel Watson

    Philip Williams you havent said much about this topic and its praxis Lets take it away with the morning coffee Robert Borders has much to say from his experience as well I think

    Writing the introductory chapter to C. Peter Wagner’s book, Breaking Spiritual Strongholds In Your City – originally published in 1993 but revised and reissued in 2015 – George Otis, Jr., the man who introduced this nomenclature to the church, defined the technique.

    “In 1990, I coined a term for this new way of seeing – ‘spiritual mapping’ – now the central theme of this book. It involves, as I have suggested, ‘Superimposing our understanding of forces and events in the spiritual domain onto places and circumstances in the material world.” George Otis, Jr.

    • Reply February 24, 2019

      Philip Williams

      Troy Day well, I don’t know George Otis, though we have a mutual friend. Was it Otis or someone else who coined the term Transformation?

      I don’t doubt that a genuine revival can transform a city, but not spiritual mapping.

    • Reply February 24, 2019

      Varnel Watson

      he seems to have taken the doctrine from an earlier 1989 book HOWEVER Paul L. King may confirm with me that displacement of spirit from areas before being able to minister in the same area is mentioned in the

      AUTHORITY of the BELIEVER

      much earlier than 1989; at the same time the Welsh revival also asserts certain similar prayer methods Guess the question is do we discard it as unBiblical or do we keep on looking into it more

    • Reply February 24, 2019

      Paul L. King

      Troy Day Some form of “spiritual mapping” though not with this terminology has been done probably since modern missions began in the 1800s. A century ago, the terminology was called “geographical praying.” It was not as sophisticated as its modern day version. You are correct, Troy, that John MacMillan, in his 1932 original writing on the authority of the believer, he writes about the concept. In the 1920s while he was a missionary in China and the Philippines, he wrote about “rolling back the powers of the air.” His mentor Robert Jaffray, chair of the C&MA missions in Asia and South Pacific wrote about the principalities and powers Jessie Penn-Lewis wrote about the concept in missions as well about 1920. It was biblically-based on numerous Old and New Testament Scriptures. However, it did not go as far as today’s “Strategic Level Spiritual Warfare” as taught by Peter Wagner.

    • Reply February 24, 2019

      Paul L. King

      Troy Day I believe the 1989 book you are referring to is John Dawson’s “Taking Our Cities for God.” George Otis further developed this, and Peter Wagner took it much too far to his concept of Strategic Level Spiritual Warfare. One of George Otis’s “Transformation Videos” was about the great revival in Fiji in 2000. I personally had opportunity to go to Fiji 4 times between 2004 and 2009, and saw first hand much of the very real ongoing transformation taking place. Thousands were saved and myriads of churches sprang up. There were eco-miracles such as polluted waters becoming pure Fiji water and large and abundant crops. Over a 5 year period, I saw a muddy beach turned into a white sandy beach through prayer. I was privileged to teach 150 pastors and train them in a Bible institute in every facet of pastoral ministry.

    • Reply February 25, 2019

      Varnel Watson

      This is all true
      Also important in the Authority of the believer
      he specifically talks about

      dislocation of demons (his phrase)

      in Asian countries before ANY mission work could be done Link Hudson has said to have experienced such type of demonic mapping in Asia as well though no Jezebel spirit was ever encountered which is straight from the Bible

    • Reply February 25, 2019

      Philip Williams

      Troy Day the question isn’t that these territorial spirits exist, but having the authority to bind them. Wind bag prophets don’t have the power to bind them.

      The Apostle Paul did have such power, but not the 7 sons of Sceva.

    • Reply February 25, 2019

      Varnel Watson

      I dont disagree with that I listed several examples from the Bible if you care to look at the last comment under this OP I would like your comments on the verses I’ve listed

    • Reply February 26, 2019

      Link Hudson

      Troy Day It’s hard to deciphher that last message. Please show a verse that mentions a ‘Jezebel spirit.’ I can’t find it in the Old Testament or the book of Revelation. Revelation mentions ‘that woman Jezebel.’ She called herself a prophetess.

      I do not recall ever mentioning demonic mapping in Asia, but I have seen Asians commanding or say they are binding spirits of this or that.

    • Reply February 26, 2019

      Link Hudson

      I’ve been busy and I’m going to be busy here for a while, so I am not reading every post in every thread, and I’m trying to keep myself away. Facebook and messenger were eating up my phone so I deleted both. I might install Facebook Lite when I get a chance to read the T&C. But not having it saves my time. I read FB less when I don’t have it on my phone.

      Anyway, the last post on the forum, 9it probably changed since you posted it. I’m not sure which post you are referring to. I scrolled down through OPs. If you want to post something directed toward me that you have been talking about for months, I might not read it now since I’m not doing much with Facebook, but if you wouldn’t mind cutting and pasting in this thread, I might see it.

    • Reply February 26, 2019

      Link Hudson

      Philip Williams Another issue is whether or not you bind a spirit by saying, “I bind you” or if you ‘bind the strong man’ by casting out demons like Jesus did.

    • Reply February 26, 2019

      Philip Williams

      Link Hudson excellent point

  • Reply February 24, 2019

    Varnel Watson

    Joe Absher Spiritual Mapping is a new name for something I was acquainted with in the Jesus Movement, 1967 to 1975. Toward the end of the Jesus Movement, about 1974, this idea emerged though it was not called spiritual mapping. We did, at that time, pray earnestly that God would dismantle the principalities and powers over the San Francisco Bay Area. I was uncritical of the concept then and jumped right on board. It was something, however, that passed rather quickly, a fad, a gimmick, like so many that came along at that time. @stan wayne was saved in the Jesus movement

    • Reply February 24, 2019

      Joe Absher

      If the church would get rid of that one eyed demon in the living room we might go a little further in the area of victory over sin and hell.

  • Reply February 24, 2019

    Daniel J Hesse

    Ya know I have seen them go to the “gates” of the city. Some have even flown in helicopters around their cities in attempts to cast down the principalities over it.

    • Reply February 24, 2019

      Varnel Watson

      yes we’ve discussed with Micael Grenholm before that Ulf Ekman used to do that in full body armor and others too But later he just turned Catholic to the pope

    • Reply February 24, 2019

      Daniel J Hesse

      Troy Day are these signs of maturity in our walk? We need to speak to spiritual maturity.

    • Reply February 24, 2019

      Varnel Watson

      which Jesus did in Mark 16 – demon casting was the maturity of OT Mosaic ministry into the NT

    • Reply February 24, 2019

      Daniel J Hesse

      Troy Day a Ruthen question?

    • Reply February 24, 2019

      Joe Mungai

      Helicopters ???
      I’ve seen that, I thought it was hilarious ?
      I guess us poor folk in Africa who cannot afford to hire a chopper are in a spot of trouble.
      We have to wait for lighting to strike old Lulu ???
      Ah me!
      Satan dwells in the hearts of men, not in the cumulus or nimbus. Jesus, the Apostles and even us, cast out devils as an entry point to a region.
      Usually, the demonic prince over an area is in a particular person, cast him out, and the whole region responds to the gospel.
      This is what I have seen by experience.

      I have also seen, as we establish churches and ministries, there is always that lewd, bad person who is rather into witchcraft who comes at the beginning. He it is who carries the demon assigned to stop that work. Deal with him on a frontal attack; withstand him and the whole ministry opens up.

      As per experience, taking on such powers without intending to grab the whole territory for Jesus and hold it down is a losing strategy. The end result is worse than before.
      Like in Joshua, we take Jericho and the lands all around.

  • Reply February 24, 2019

    Varnel Watson

    well Joe Mungai you said IF in the BIBLE we need to believe

    There is in the BIBLE – is this not good enough?

    Demon casting is not in the OT at all
    So we cannot talk about it there

    In the NT JESUS ministry was the first to introduce demon casting

    Jesus cast demons out before and during ministering to a city

    Paul and the apostles dealt with the demonic travelling systematically from city to city

    John in Revelation traveled the map of the 7 churches systematically naming and dealing with the demons that hindered them Some of Jezebel even within the actual church

    • Reply February 25, 2019

      Varnel Watson

      Joe Mungai would live to hear your response to the actual BIBLE that speaks for spiritual mapping

    • Reply February 26, 2019

      Varnel Watson

      Philip Williams how else would one bind a demon?

    • Reply February 26, 2019

      Link Hudson

      Troy Day Jesus used the bind the strong man analogy in a passage about His __casting out demons___. There are no passages where Jesus or the apostles say to a demon, “I bind you.”

  • Reply February 26, 2019

    Varnel Watson

    Link Hudson how else would you bind a demon except through binding it 🙂 you are starting to make less and less sense

    How would you know which spirit to bind without mapping?

    How did you know which one and how did you bind them while ministering in Asia? What was your method if practiced any?

  • Reply February 26, 2019

    Link Hudson

    Jesus cast out demons out of people. He quoted scripture to Satan when Satan came to Him to tempt Him, and He once said, “Get thee behind me Satan…” when Peter tried to convince him that He would not die as He said He would.

    But where in the Bible do we read of Jesus or the apostles rebuking demons that weren’t manifesting in people or otherwise, commanding principalities or powers to fall down out of the heavens, naming spirits after any social ill or sin and declaring them bound, cast out, or commanding them to flee? I do not see this modeled in the Bible.

    Where do the apostles declare spirits bound?

    Btw, I thought you were Pentecostal? Are you doing this Peter Wagner stuff? I don’t think I have to find out the secret principality name over a region and declare it bound for the gospel to be effective. What does that idea have to do with the Bible?

  • Reply February 26, 2019

    Varnel Watson

    Is this how you do it Link Hudson how is this different than what we said above OR even from spiritual mapping? I also recently read that in the BIBLE ONLY GOD sends/gives evil spirits Paul L. King

    • Reply February 26, 2019

      Link Hudson

      I can only comment on what I have heard people say and do, really. I haven’t read the source material, the spiritual mapping book. But I’ve heard some wacky things, on occasion.

      And I think the practice of saying, “Let us pray” and then talking to the Devil and not even addressing the Father, or scarecly at all is a weird extreme practice and non-Charismatics and non-Pentecostals are justified in seeing that as weird.

      If a demon manifests, cast it out. But we pray to God.

    • Reply February 26, 2019

      Varnel Watson

      but what have YOU done in demon casting
      Most theoretiX just dont work in the field

    • Reply February 26, 2019

      Link Hudson

      Troy Day I’ve been in a group commanding demons to come out. Have you cast out a lot of demons?

      That is also a different topic from this. If you cast out demons, you might see the person get better right then and there. With some of the spiritual warfare stuff, people get excited and say a bunch of words… and then what.

      I did have a friend who was into rebuking principalities. She told me that she did this once, saw this big tall man who punched her in the eye and left a bruise, and began to back off a bit from some of the stuff she was doing, but she was still into it, I think.

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