Practical application of Pentecostal theology in politics, economy and social issues
Caesar’s Tax: Trump and Theology
Rome Had Caesar. America Has Trump. The People Were and Are Desperate.
If you want to understand why my neighbors voted for Trump, look to the Romans who cheered on Julius Caesar.
I teach ancient history at a small liberal arts college in the Midwest. One question I’m often asked when I tell p…
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Job
18 “Why did you bring me out from the womb?
Would that I had died before any eye had seen me
19 and were as though I had not been,
carried from the womb to the grave.
20 Are not my days few?
Then cease, and leave me alone, that I may find a little cheer
21 before I go—and I shall not return—
to the land of darkness and deep shadow,
22 the land of gloom like thick darkness,
like deep shadow without any order,
where light is as thick darkness.”
[Job 10:21-22 ESV]
10 But a man dies and is laid low;
man breathes his last, and where is he?
11 As waters fail from a lake
and a river wastes away and dries up,
12 so a man lies down and rises not again;
till the heavens are no more he will not awake
or be roused out of his sleep.
[Job 14:10-12 ESV]
13 If I hope for Sheol as my house,
if I make my bed in darkness,
14 if I say to the pit, ‘You are my father,’
and to the worm, ‘My mother,’ or ‘My sister,’
15 where then is my hope?
Who will see my hope?
16 Will it go down to the bars of Sheol?
Shall we descend together into the dust?”
[Job 17:13-16 ESV]
Jesus
19 “There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. 20 And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, 21 who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried, 23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. 24 And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’ 27 And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father’s house— 28 for I have five brothers—so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’ 29 But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 He said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.’”
[Luke 16:19-31 ESV]
Job described Sheol as a place of darkness and deep shadow, where man is in a state of sleep, hopeless, with worms, in the dust.
In contrast, Jesus described Sheol as a place where there is both torment for the wicked and comfort for the righteous, with at least two compartments with a great chasm in between, where the dead are very awake and conscious, not asleep.
Question
Is there a contradiction between Job’s and Jesus’ understanding of Sheol? Did Job and Jesus have different views on death and the afterlife?
Related BHSE questions
Related CSE questions
Varnel Watson
any good tax news yet? Stan Wayne Carl Murphy Ira Huth Jim Price Is it true
Estimate Economic Growth Would Rise Under Tax Plan, but Not Enough to Pay for Itself https://projects.iq.harvard.edu/francisclooney/blog/caesars-coin-very-little-we-owe-donald-trump-0
Varnel Watson
2018 Tax Cut – lower middle class, medical insurance Jim Price
• Caesar’s to Caesar article – we do owe that much to Donald Trump
• Doubling of the standard deduction to ~$24,000
• Increasing child credit to $2,000
• What about schools and education?
• Affecting churches and non-profits
Ira Huth
Here some Brother Troy Day just ran across it.
http://www1.cbn.com/cbnnews/us/2017/november/study-shows-senate-tax-reform-plan-would-help-the-middle-class
Varnel Watson
Well that much we know As I told Street Preacherz I am all for it
Street Preacherz
Im glad you are having such a good time.
Varnel Watson
Jim Price you’ve been very outspoken before about social sec., church non-profit, tax and old. How’s the new tax code affecting churches? Carl Murphy
Jim Price
After the final bill is written and passed i’ll study the church and then respond.
Varnel Watson
Carl Pretty sure FOX news mentioned briefly churches when the bill was passed. They did not elaborated much. This was over 2 week ago and there has not been anything else on that since
Varnel Watson
GOP bill allows churches to back candidates, keep tax status Churches should have the First Amendment right to endorse political candidates and still keep their tax-free status, say House Republicans The transit authority might have reconsidered its ban on the Catholic Church’s advertisement … Should Harboring illegal aliens cost churches tax status? http://video.foxnews.com/v/5644041744001/
Varnel Watson
Carl Murphy Stan Wayne WithThe GOP tax bill is straight out of 1929. Jimmy Humphrey Jim Price https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/posteverything/wp/2017/11/30/im-a-depression-historian-the-gop-tax-bill-is-straight-out-of-1929/?utm_term=.f3e1b1439c25&wpisrc=nl_az_most&wpmk=1
“There are those who believe that if you will only legislate to make the well-to-do prosperous their prosperity will leak through on those below. The Democratic idea, however, has been that if you legislate to make the masses prosperous their prosperity will find its way up through every class which rests upon them.”
Varnel Watson
Ira Huth
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10160036633095393&id=140647865392
Varnel Watson
Graham may be authority on preaching but certainly not on politics. Actually, Graham son can preach that good either
Ira Huth
#1 I believe several in the Church of God that heard him preach at our General Assembly a few years back would disagree with you. We shouldn’t preach to be performance driven, we should preach with the heart and the love of God, respecting each other regardless of what our opinions are. #2 Franklin Graham is one of thousands of ministers with the same politics. Politics that line up with the Word of God, discerning through the Holy Spirit with truthful facts. Instead of lining up with and believing some of the propaganda and lies that come from the Washington Post and other secular liberal sources.
Ira Huth
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=952226454925910&id=892390640909492
Varnel Watson
Ira are you referring to Florida when he did not even give an altar call at the end? http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/12/02/senate-passes-major-tax-reform-package.html Whats up with Bob Corker Now then Carl Murphy Stan Wayne Jan Dixon Sykes Trump I do not know, but I do know Bob Corker of Tn very well. He is a man of integrity whom many of us have trusted for many years now If Bob took a stand against the whole Republic party then there’s something fishy with it (though I cannot out my finger on anything I dont like just yet)
Varnel Watson
Carl Murphy Stan Wayne “There are two ideas of government,” William Jennings Bryan declared in his 1896 “Cross of Gold” speech. “There are those who believe that if you will only legislate to make the well-to-do prosperous their prosperity will leak through on those below. The Democratic idea, however, has been that if you legislate to make the masses prosperous their prosperity will find its way up through every class which rests upon them.”
Varnel Watson
Nelson Banuchi This is what I tried to express though my point was not well received but is true in my personal observation
When Bill Clinton proposed a modest increase in the top marginal tax rate in his 1993 budget, every Republican voted against it. Trickle-down economists proclaimed that it would lead to economic disaster. But the tax increase on the wealthy was followed by one of the greatest periods of prosperity in American history and resulted in a budget surplus. When the Republicans came back into power in 2001, the administration of George W. Bush pushed the opposite policies, which had invariably produced calamity in the past. Predictably, that happened again in 2008.
Varnel Watson
So whats the final tally Carl Murphy Stan Wayne Jim Price
Double standard deduction
Not mandatory health insurance
What about churches?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/gop-tax-bill-passes-congress-as-trump-prepares-to-sign-it-into-law/2017/12/20/0ba2fd98-e597-11e7-9ec2-518810e7d44d_story.html
Varnel Watson
The reason 4th of july fireworks got rained out again 🙂
Tom Torbeyns
Another take: https://www.facebook.com/brojed/posts/10156439065673917:0
Varnel Watson
Last year, Trump signed the “Presidential Executive Order Promoting Free Speech and Religious Liberty.” Since then he has moved the American Embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem. Hopefully, he has made peace with North Korea and GOD
Varnel Watson
However, through the 19th and 20th centuries, premillenarianism became the major eschatological view among Protestants. As a result, a major reversal in theology of politics, from Calvinistic theology of politics which sees them as advancing the Kingdom of God, to a more pietistic theology of politics was observed. Saving souls became a priority before saving societies, thus promoting a pessimistic eschatological view. Such was taken by most missionaries of the 19th and 20th century whose ministries originated in the mission efforts of premillennial congregations and denominations.
Tom Torbeyns
I think there’s a lot to say for Christ’s everlastingly increasing Kingdom (Isaiah + the great commission at the end of Matthew) and the believers “subduing kingdoms” (Hebrews)
Varnel Watson
Say it Tom Hope it aint about Kingdom now theology 🙂
Tom Torbeyns
Absolutely not 😉 Not in the NAR sense and all that modern stuff
Varnel Watson
We’ll kingdom now is not NAR only. NAR adopted kingdom-now which comes from very, very reformed theological roots. It’s application in the current political stage of history however is hardly reformed
Tom Torbeyns
If it’s reformed, it’s probably wrong, stemming from Augustine…
Varnel Watson
Well for most Augustine is right Luther promoted it though and Calvin as well. I actually had someone argue in this group Augustine was wrong 🙂 Have to find it again