Rev 2:26-27

Posted by Nelson Banuchi in Facebook's Pentecostal Theology Group View the Original Post

I just read Rev 2:26,27, and let me paraphrase how I think it can be translated: “He that overcomes and is faithfully obedient to me to the end, I will give him that same authority (i.e. power) the father has given me to rule over the nations.”

My emphasis is on “I will give him that same authority (i.e. power) the father has given me,” with special attention to the having been given given authority/power, as Christ received from God.

My question: Can this “authority” or “power” be legitimately understood as including the charismata?

James L Alldredge [03/05/2015 9:30 AM]
I would suggest several Differences 1. The charismata are temporary and belong to the Spirit 2. This authority is not granted until after the return of Christ 3. The power Jesus promises here is to rule, the power He promised in Acts 1 is to witness

Nelson Banuchi [03/05/2015 9:51 AM]
James L Alldredge, thanks; good insight.

Mark Biteler [03/09/2015 3:16 AM]
I would recommend Dr. Jon Ruthven’s book, What is Wrong With Protestant Theology, recently published by Word & Spirit Press if you haven’t seen it already. In answer to your question, I would submit that the verses in question would stretch the point, because the context has to do with “the end”, i.e. the coming age when the charismata cease to exist, so my answer would be, no. Rev 2:26-27 could be coupled with Luke 19 and the parable of the slaves. There are a number of verses regarding the charismata that would be far better to leverage with regard to your focus.

Jon Ruthven [03/09/2015 1:26 PM]
“Authority” (Gr: exousia) is most often associated in the NT with power to cast out demons. This is the exousia I believe was granted in the so-called “Great Commission” (really a repeat of the previous commissions in Mt 10; Mk6; Lk 9&10). The CORE commissioning account is in Mark 3:14-15, comprised of 3 elements: He chose the 12 (representatives of the New Israel, the 120 at Pentecost, or the 144,000 in Revelation) for an explicit purpose: “to be with him (close relationship); to be sent out to proclaim (it doesn’t give content, only process, which is probably prophecy “word”) and to have “exousia to cast out unclean spirits.” (The Gospel in intimacy with God, word and deed–prophecy & miracle–Rom 15:18-19). THAT IS THE ESSENCE OF JESUS’ PROGRAM FOR DISCIPLES. This is stupifyingly distant from our traditional discipleship, bible school, and seminary programs!

Nelson Banuchi [03/09/2015 2:36 PM]
Btw, Jon Ruthven, I read both your books, on Cessationism and Protestant theology, and they were excellent. They really helped to focus me on exactly the primary intent of the Cross, which often gets lost in all out thinking. Not that I’m some scholar whose read a ton of books on the subject, but yours’ are the best. Thank you for taking your time to write them.

Pentecostal Theology [03/13/2015 12:17 PM]
It is also connected with “faithfully obedient to the end” which is a life of continuous holiness and sanctification: http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/whatever-happened-to-pentecostal-holiness/

Be first to comment

This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.

Rev 2:26-27

Posted by in Facebook's Pentecostal Theology Group View the Original Post

I just read Rev 2:26,27, and let me paraphrase how I think it can be translated: “He that overcomes and is faithfully obedient to me to the end, I will give him that same authority (i.e. power) the father has given me to rule over the nations.”

My emphasis is on “I will give him that same authority (i.e. power) the father has given me,” with special attention to the having been given given authority/power, as Christ received from God.

My question: Can this “authority” or “power” be legitimately understood as including the charismata?

James L Alldredge [03/05/2015 9:30 AM]
I would suggest several Differences 1. The charismata are temporary and belong to the Spirit 2. This authority is not granted until after the return of Christ 3. The power Jesus promises here is to rule, the power He promised in Acts 1 is to witness

Nelson Banuchi [03/05/2015 9:51 AM]
James L Alldredge, thanks; good insight.

Mark Biteler [03/09/2015 3:16 AM]
I would recommend Dr. Jon Ruthven’s book, What is Wrong With Protestant Theology, recently published by Word & Spirit Press if you haven’t seen it already. In answer to your question, I would submit that the verses in question would stretch the point, because the context has to do with “the end”, i.e. the coming age when the charismata cease to exist, so my answer would be, no. Rev 2:26-27 could be coupled with Luke 19 and the parable of the slaves. There are a number of verses regarding the charismata that would be far better to leverage with regard to your focus.

Jon Ruthven [03/09/2015 1:26 PM]
“Authority” (Gr: exousia) is most often associated in the NT with power to cast out demons. This is the exousia I believe was granted in the so-called “Great Commission” (really a repeat of the previous commissions in Mt 10; Mk6; Lk 9&10). The CORE commissioning account is in Mark 3:14-15, comprised of 3 elements: He chose the 12 (representatives of the New Israel, the 120 at Pentecost, or the 144,000 in Revelation) for an explicit purpose: “to be with him (close relationship); to be sent out to proclaim (it doesn’t give content, only process, which is probably prophecy “word”) and to have “exousia to cast out unclean spirits.” (The Gospel in intimacy with God, word and deed–prophecy & miracle–Rom 15:18-19). THAT IS THE ESSENCE OF JESUS’ PROGRAM FOR DISCIPLES. This is stupifyingly distant from our traditional discipleship, bible school, and seminary programs!

Nelson Banuchi [03/09/2015 2:36 PM]
Btw, Jon Ruthven, I read both your books, on Cessationism and Protestant theology, and they were excellent. They really helped to focus me on exactly the primary intent of the Cross, which often gets lost in all out thinking. Not that I’m some scholar whose read a ton of books on the subject, but yours’ are the best. Thank you for taking your time to write them.

Pentecostal Theology [03/13/2015 12:17 PM]
It is also connected with “faithfully obedient to the end” which is a life of continuous holiness and sanctification: http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/whatever-happened-to-pentecostal-holiness/

Be first to comment

This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.