church, life, prayer, sermon, theology, video June 24, 2015 Pre-Tribulation Rapture Posted by Pentecostal Theology in Facebook's Pentecostal Theology Group View the Original Post Pentecostal Theology [02/26/2015 3:57 PM]http://ourcog.org/perry-stone-the-hidden-rapture/ pretribulationrapture PentecostalTheology .com Previous articleRichard Thornhill looks at the Development Next articleThe #conservative line-up of presidential candidates 65 Comments Reply July 5, 2017 Varnel Watson Rico Hero Scotty Searan Post trib rapture, a-mil, escapism and other false accusation of Pentecostal eschatology proper promptly challenged by one of the leading Pentecostal scholars while still living. Now that he is in heaven his challenge is rightfully proven Did you watch this video Ricky Grimsley Dan Irving Reply July 5, 2017 Dan Irving I watched this. What is driving the Pre-Trib position is literalism in respect to the book of Revelation, wherein one’s personal interpretation of metaphor predominates over explicit statements of Christ and His apostles. Reply July 5, 2017 Varnel Watson Well if we have to be completely honest What is driving Pentecostalism is a literal interpretation of the whole Bible rightly divided. Depart from literal interpretation and you are liable to depart from Pentecostalism Many examples for this rule have been made here by prima-pronto bapticostals Reply July 5, 2017 Ricky Grimsley If perry stone cant convince me im sure this guy cant either. Reply July 5, 2017 Varnel Watson Werent you cog or something and you dont know this? Reply July 5, 2017 Dan Irving Troy Day, When Jesus spoke of sowing seeds, reaping harvests, leaven in dough, etc., I suppose he was talking about the finer points of gardening and baking. (Other than direct commandments, Scripture taken literally, is often taken errantly.) Reply July 5, 2017 Ricky Grimsley There is no scriptural case for pre-trib. I have heard all the best and all they do is ignore the obvious. Reply July 5, 2017 Rico Hero Ricky, you will be eating crow bro Reply July 5, 2017 Ricky Grimsley Ill be happy to. I hope for pre-trib because inknow what is coming. I just dont see it in the bible. Reply July 6, 2017 Varnel Watson 1Thes 3 – plenty of pre-trib scripture there Reply July 6, 2017 Ricky Grimsley For pre-trib. Nah Reply July 6, 2017 Varnel Watson Your personal opinion on the text of 1Thes 4 is much weaker than what the text of 1Thes 4 actually says to the Christian community today Reply July 6, 2017 Ricky Grimsley If you keep reading into chapter five you see that paul also calls the rapture the day of the lord and this ends the argument of pretrib Reply July 5, 2017 Scotty Searan I watched video but I am still prewrath My question can a person not receive the Mark and give their life for the cause of Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost be gone? Reply July 5, 2017 Dan Irving BTW, He glosses over that John chapter 5 reference, when a careful reading would entirely undermine his use of that scripture. Reply July 5, 2017 Scotty Searan My understanding of the Scriptures no one can be saved unless The Holy Ghost draws them If the Holy Ghost is gone, as some teach, who will be doing the drawing? Since people are being saved during the Great Tribulation, I guess they are being saved by works not by faith. Is that possible? If not they’re perverting the Gospel Reply July 5, 2017 Dan Irving I refer to the Lord’s words concerning the 1st vs. the 2nd Resurrection wherein he supposes one is for the righteous and the 2nd is for the wicked. (ie. as justification for making distinction between a “Pre-Trib Rapture” and the “Second Coming.” He makes the Lord’s coming all about he resurrection of the damned. But he misunderstands that scripture. Reply July 5, 2017 Scotty Searan Yes he does. But I would be glad for them that believe this if it did happen the way they teach. We would be going But if it’s the way we believe then you will see the great falling away. Reply July 6, 2017 Varnel Watson Dan Irving what/whose John chapter 5 reference? #missedit Reply July 6, 2017 Ricky Grimsley The holy spirit never leaves the earth. He is omnipresent anyway. The hinderer of lawlessness is michael. Reply July 6, 2017 Dan Irving Troy Day, the reference is to Jn 5:25-29. He improperly uses John 5:29 to separate the bodily resurrection into two events. Reply July 6, 2017 Varnel Watson Ricky Grimsley Is Michael on earth right now? Hardly. The Church is the hinderer of lawlessness. When the church is taken in the pre-Trib rapture teh evil one shall appear. 2 Thess 2 is plain and simple about the body of Christ being the hinderer of lawlessness. Reply July 6, 2017 Dan Irving The Hinderer of lawlessness is the restraining force of which Paul speaks. That is not the church, nor is it the spirit in the church. Reply July 6, 2017 Dan Irving It is the spiritual principle of the law. (Room. 7:14-15) Reply July 6, 2017 Dan Irving Men will begin to cast aside this spiritual governor over their thoughts, words, and behaviors. Reply July 6, 2017 Varnel Watson The Hinderer of lawlessness is the restraining force of which Paul speaks is the church namely the Body of Christ of church Paul speaks and refers to as He – the Body of Christ Reply July 6, 2017 Ricky Grimsley Prove it? Reply July 6, 2017 Ricky Grimsley So who are these people?Daniel 11:32 KJVS  And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits . Reply July 6, 2017 Dan Irving The generality of mankind do not have God’s spirit, so I fail to see how that is their restraint. What restrains men is the law, which itself is administered by angelic authority, according to Hebrews. Reply July 6, 2017 Dan Irving Angelic authority shall cease operating in restraint of sin and lawlessness. Reply July 7, 2017 Varnel Watson How so when in Revelation we see that the more demonic activities increase around the Beast during the Tribulation the more angelic activities press on and are more present? One author even said that we observer more angelic activities during the Tribulation than the whole Bible all together. Just count the trumpets, seals, bowels and so on during the Tribulation… Reply July 7, 2017 Ricky Grimsley Angelic activity increases but its to pour out wrath Reply July 7, 2017 Varnel Watson which only proves that neither Micheal not the rest of the angels are the removed Hinderer of lawlessness They are on earth They are not removed Reply July 7, 2017 Rickey Matthews How can i get a copy of your serman Reply July 7, 2017 Varnel Watson https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mN960T7Qq1A&feature=youtu.be Reply July 7, 2017 Dan Irving The Law is SPIRITUAL. (Rom. 7:15) The Law exists as a restraint upon transgression. (Gal. 3:19) The Law governs ALL men. (Rom. 2:15) The Law is placed in the hands of angels for its ministration of reward and punishment. (Heb. 2:2) Isn’t the conclusion rather clear then, that the loosening of restraint involves a change in how angelic authority operates among men/mankind? Reply July 7, 2017 Dan Irving While the Church might be a reason the angels act in restraint of lawlessness, the Church does not appear the direct mechanism of this. In fact, when we read the prophets, it becomes clear that God will allow godlessness to overwhelm the Church, distress it, and persecute it. Reply July 7, 2017 Varnel Watson Well exactly as per the law requirement – the law was for the people not for the angels. The angels are not held responsible to the morality of the law SO if the spiritual principle of God’s wrath according to the spiritual law (Rom. 7:15) holds humans and not angels responsible, then it is only reasonable to suggest that the moral agent of the law ie. the church is the constrainer and not Michael or angels who have no relation with the law given to humankind by God Reply July 7, 2017 Dan Irving That statement seems in entire contradiction to the four verses of scripture just presented. Reply July 7, 2017 Varnel Watson How so? Hebrews 2:2 namely says the angels are needed on earth for wrath punishment deriving from law to be executed. So if angelic presence is taken away (which we see it is not in Revelation) who is to execute the wrath? Hebrews 2:2 only confirms what I’ve explained above Reply July 7, 2017 Dan Irving You assume the only agency of angels is to punish transgressions of the law. They are also ministering spirits to the heirs of salvation (Ps. 91:11) and perform God’s will in other respects. (Ps. 103:20) The Law has authority over Sin. (Gal. 3) It is the spiritual principle of Sin that brings the spiritual principle of Death (Rom 5:21) Death is empowered by Sin, because by Sin, the Law must come to bear upon men. (I Cor. 15:56) Therefore, the power of that angel, Satan, resides in the continuation of man in a condition of Sin, and so, Death. (Heb. 2:14) But we also know that Grace annuls this principle (Rom. 5:20) that allows angelic authority to increase by virtue of Sin. So then, we have a problem. What happens if Sin is allowed to increase despite the principle of Grace being in operation? Reply July 7, 2017 Dan Irving This is the ministry of the false prophet we see in active operation in the church today, where men continue in sin despite coming into a profession of Jesus Christ. They fall into neither the camp of the sanctified (ie. those who by Grace, are gaining strength unto holiness rather than earthly strength) and neither do they fall into the camp of God’s provision for humanity (a system of punishment and reward designed to allow the morally-upright to exist, function, and to prosper in this world.) They promote neither the interests of Christ, nor the proper agency of angels. They promote lawlessness. Reply July 7, 2017 Dan Irving But we cannot have it both ways. If the angelic authority is abridged in terms of its ability to punish Sin and reward upright behavior, then Lawlessness will increase. Therefore, proper ministry is to preach moral uprightness (ie. the Law) in order to ready men for their day of Grace, when the Law will give way to God’s mercy, when they can be embraced by God without respect to their guilt. Reply July 7, 2017 Dan Irving But the false-gospel teaches men a LIE concerning GRACE. They like to use the term “the FAVOR of God,” as a synonym for Grace; (e.g. see Bill Johnson) supposing they can have God’s mercies, and the benefits of angelic reward in terms of earthly strength. They don’t know that their power resides in their earthly WEAKNESS. Reply July 7, 2017 Dan Irving Therefore, because evil angelic authority is threatened by this principle of Grace, it uses deception to lie about Grace (in a variety of ways) so as to disrupt its smooth operation that would lead to a sanctified body of Christ. He distorts the truth, telling men they can LIVE, when Grace means they must DIE to this world. He deceives them to wrongly invest spiritual things into the life of the Beast (man’s brute nature.) And, because Satan’s direct authority to bring death has been abridged, he transfers his authority to men in exchange for their submission and worship of him. (Matt 4:9) The Restraining force, is removed by the abuse of the Gospel through the subsiding of direct angelic authority. Man himself, becomes the monster, formed into the image of the Devil. Reply July 7, 2017 Varnel Watson Not disagreeing with your explanation of human sin and moral law All I am saying is that Heb 2:2 and other verses cited only prove it cannot be angelic agent holding the appearance of the beast – also of angelic origin. This was tried and did not work with the fall of Satan. Therefore God gave this purpose to the newly created human kind. This strategy was confirmed with the authority given to the church over fallen angels in the Great Comission This is namely the authority that needs to be removed before the evil one can appear. It is the authority of the church over the Kingdom of Satan that stops the beast from appearing. Jude clearly confirms that when saying that even Micheal was not yet given authority over Satan until later in Revelation with for that specifically designated time. So there is no agent on earth right now beside the church that withholds the appearance of the beast except the church. It is the church WHO needs to be removed before he can appear and rule Reply July 7, 2017 Dan Irving Hence the danger of a doctrine of church-escapism. You believe your very presence prevents the rise of that which is already here & has already deceived! What a great strategy! Reply July 7, 2017 Dan Irving Don’t you know he shall overcome the saints? So how can you say the saints will be gone? ? Reply July 7, 2017 Varnel Watson Yes, he will overcome the saints of Israel for a short time, but the gates of hell shall not prevail against the church. Even political NAR preaches that 🙂 Reply July 7, 2017 Dan Irving That’s not what it says. Pure surmise. Troy Day, you need to tighten up your exegesis. Reply July 7, 2017 Varnel Watson My exegesis is sound, you perhaps meant hermeneutics. Please give us your explanation: Revelation 12:12 Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and of the sea! For the devil has come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a <> Revelation 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; <> Matthew 16:18 I will build my church, and the gates of hell[b] shall not prevail against it. – Jesus promised it not to break His promise in Revelation Revelation 11:12 Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on. <> much similar like John and the 7 churches did in Rev 4: 1 After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.” Oh Church, KEEP on LOOKING and WAITING for there is a door in heaven that is about to open and a voice calling you saying: Come up here! Reply July 7, 2017 Dan Irving As to each: Rev. 12:12 Who are the inhabitants of earth? This is not literal, ie. they are not the “Left Behind” folks. They are those whose hearts are still in this world, who have not been raised into the heavenlies with Christ Jesus, pursuant to Eph.2:6. Reply July 7, 2017 Dan Irving Rev 12:11 is speaking not of the whole of the professing church. It is speaking specifically of those who overcame. Reply July 7, 2017 Varnel Watson Exactly! For those who overcome during the great tribulation, while the rest of the church are already gone in the Rapture Reply July 8, 2017 Link Hudson Troy Day Show us the part about the rest of the church being raptured first… in the Bible. Something clear that doesn’t rely on heavily allegorical interpretation (e.g. John hearing ‘come up hither) would be nice. Reply July 7, 2017 Varnel Watson And this is perhaps why out interpretations differ. I take Revelation literal. Once it become symbolic we depart from theology toward preterism or even amilenialism like Augustine who claimed Rev 20 and the Millennium is only symbolic Link Hudson claimed Christians never go to heave. Do you believe Christians go to heaven? Reply July 7, 2017 Dan Irving So a dragon chased a woman? So a beast arises from the sea? Reply July 7, 2017 Dan Irving Satan is bound with a literal chain of iron? Reply July 7, 2017 Varnel Watson Absolutely! And an angel appeared to Marry. And the red sea opened and a voice was heard when Jesus was baptized. Once we take this and that symbolic someone should ask Did Jesus died for real or was it just symbolic? Reply July 7, 2017 Varnel Watson Does it say it? Than I believe it! Reply July 7, 2017 Dan Irving We are not to be children in our understand, but men. Reply July 7, 2017 Varnel Watson I am a man in my understanding who believes that if it says the fish eat Jonah or even if it says Jonah eat the fish this is how it went down. For I have known many Pentacostal preacher men who have eaten fishes much bigger than them and put the whole fish camp restaurant into bankruptcy 🙂 Ricky Grimsley Reply July 8, 2017 Link Hudson Classifying whales as not a fish is a modern scientific distinction, which draws from Aristotle’s classification system, not the Biblical classification system. In our system, locust are insects. In the Biblical classification system, they are different from most other critters we’d call insects and are kosher. Reply July 7, 2017 Dan Irving If we are unwilling to consider metaphor, we lock ourselves out of understanding what God has/would communicate; as He has chosen to use parable and metaphor to engage us in contemplating His kingdom and His ways. In fact, isn’t it rather presumptuous to think spiritual things are confined to the material and base? These tangible references are only symbols. Reply July 7, 2017 Varnel Watson None the less, I do appreciate the gentleman’s tone of the discussion Leave a Reply Click here to cancel reply. Cancel replyComment Name Email Website This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.