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Is it consistent with Pentecostalism to accept to Athanasian Creed?
If so, and if those who do not are not understand some of the details and therefore do not believe them are not saved as the creed implies, why don’t Pentecostals go over all the details of the creed and confess faith in it before they are considered saved?
Do people have to believe every line of the Athanasian Creed to be saved, including the parts that say that those that don’t believe it aren’t saved?
Guest;
It is not pseudo – pseudo would make it fake You probably mean Quicunque Vult
Guest;
You will have to explain. I maybe should know what that word means. You will have to take Troy Days Word for it.
Guest;
My feeling about the creeds is that those back in the days, Who had no written word of God would learn the creeds and confirm their salvation. Nowadays we have good teaching materials in print and online…but I rather hear the confessions of the creeds than the confessions today, “I am confessing a new gold plated Cadillac and a Million dollars!
Guest;
Link Hudson why not post the Creed, and what you disagree with? Or give us one of your own?
Guest;
Do people have to believe every line of the Athanasian Creed to be saved, including the parts that say that those that don’t believe it aren’t saved? – hahaha Link Hudson what do you think 🙂
Guest;
I believe in the Trinity alright. But I don’t believe you have to believe you have to get into creeds to be saved , unless it dates exalts what the Bible says. In order to be saved. ( Romans10:9 ). That if you shall confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus ,and shall believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead , you Shall be saved. I wish I knew more about Creeds and Codes. But I don’t know a lot about them. But I have a Sure Word , a Foundation that will forever stand. So I will fit sure take it.
Guest;
He is asking do you have to believe in the Trinity to be saved ?
Guest;
I don’t see how you could be saved unless you believe the Word. It teaches the Father , Son , AndThe Holy Ghost Or Spirit. The Bible just uses the Word Holy Ghost a lot. And also the Holy Spirit. I believe is One and the Same.
Guest;
Without the Shedding Of Blood , there is no Remission of sins. It takes the Shed Blood Of Jesus Christ and belief in Him to be saved. But the Bible teaches He Had A Father. And all three has always been. But the Word , or Jesus the Son became flesh at the Birth of the Virgin Mary.
Guest;
The creed recited in the escopial church I went to as a kid was pretty good, except the part where we said “I believe in the Catholic church” that part was weird!
Varnel Watson
since 1914 it has been a certain written on stone matter for the majority of Pentecostals around the globe http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/a-christian-is-the-one-who-accepts-the-trinity/
Link Hudson
Except there are a lot of Trinitarian Pentecostals who do not declare Oneness foljs to be unsaved. Probably less likely to do so than nonTrinitarian Pentecostals.
Varnel Watson
not so in our AG – what is Oneness foljes?
Link Hudson
Do you think all the AG church folk think the Oneness are unsaved?
Would Branham have had as large of meetings of other Pentecostals hadn’t joined in?
Varnel Watson
I think all AG folk who established AG in 1914 took a good look into separating from oneness heresy
Brian Roden
It is my understanding that the scholars within the UPC and other Oneness groups are actually moving closer and closer to Trinitarian theology (one of my seminary profs had been in dialog with some Oneness professors). It’s just going to take a good long while to reach the grassroots, especially if the rank-and-file Oneness ministers don’t take any classes/guidance from the scholars.
Varnel Watson
I have heard about that but have NOT seen it yet At any mean, the Bernard guy aint moving no where 🙂
Brian Roden
Troy Day Sometimes for change to occur, a generation must pass off the scene
Varnel Watson
you know I am talking about right?
Varnel Watson
Philip Williams Just to note, the earliest Pentecostals were anti-creedal but were sola scriptura to the man.
I agree on that but the earliest AG sure had their Trinitarian doctrine creedal and square as the fellowship was formed
Varnel Watson
Do people have to believe every line of the Athanasian Creed to be saved, including the parts that say that those that don’t believe it aren’t saved? as asked by Link Hudson Jesus-only maybe
Ray E Horton
Creed’s are not what we follow, rather the Bible is clear on how to be saved, by transferring our trust to Jesus, rather than ourselves; by grace through faith, not works.
Nora Neel-Toney
No way. Jesus is the only way to be saved
Steve Losee
I had a 3 volume set called “The Creeds of Christendom”. It gave me a headache, so I gave it away. I kind of like the Nicene, but I’ll stick with Scripture.
Varnel Watson
so you are now oneness too?
Steve Losee
how did you get THAT from what I wrote?!?
Varnel Watson
thats EXACTLY what it sounded like under this OP – do you not accept the Athanasius creed for what it is ?
Steve Losee
don’t remember what it says, but the Nicene is clearly Trinitarian.
Varnel Watson
Steve Losee how are you reformed without the very very creedal westminster confession of faith
Steve Losee
who told you I’m Reformed? Where are you getting these labels from?
Philip Williams
brothers, the Reformers did good by making the Scriptures the authority and by preaching the priesthood of believers however they later compromised these principles. But their soteriology built around the semi-Gnostic, pseudo-Christian Augustine is a tragedy. Pelagius was faithful to the teachings of the Early Church on these matters. Remember his dispute with Augustine was due to the latter blaming sin on God as revealed in Augustine’s Confessions. Arminian is far too Calvinist (Augustinian) to serve as our model.
We are born in the image of Adam who was innocent until he sinned. Jesus plainly showed us that little children aren’t devils, but a model for all who might wish to come to him.
Varnel Watson
Philip Williams I liked your several posts BUT you know what they would say – historical, church fathers, not-apostolic, etc
So lets do a little history review – WHEN did you say oneness was first preached? EXACTLY
When Pentecost occurred in America we had multiple movements seeking holiness who experienced the Holy Ghost baptism
– baptist – very very trinitiran
– methodist holiness – one dont get more Trinity than the bro. Wesley
– congregational – Sola Scriptura – Sola Trinitaria
basically all early Pentecostals were as Trinitarian as it get
I mean how ELSE does one GET the Holy Ghost if he is not a person but just a title How does the baptism happen with just a title? Does water baptism happened in the TITLE name of the water or in the actual water – come on somebody get a grip
Then we have the first oneness walking round -n-bout
and soon after our AG setting them straight as heretics
History lesson over – next come the finals
Steve Losee
“Oneness” ONLY works if you insist on English (especially the old KJV) and ignore the original languages. Even in English, the evidence is overwhelming to an objective observer…as Dake showed us. I have to admit I totally disagree with his “Moral Govement” theory, but Ilove his lists…like this one
Varnel Watson
most of them aint never seen no real KJV
Philip Williams
Troy Day actually, the original Pentecostals were focused on the Apostolic Church rather than the fathers and tended to rely on revelation rather than theology or the sacraments. They didn’t do all that much studying of the Bible.
But they had a single theological issue dividing them, whether an experience of sanctification preceded baptism of the Holy Ghost with evidence of speaking in tongues. Those not part of one of the Holiness denominations (Church of God, Pentecostal Holiness, Parham, Seymour, and especially Mason’s Church of God in Christ, through who many of the early leaders obtained ordination) had accepted Durham’s finished work message and rejected the intermediate sanctification experience.
But then in the revival initiated by McAlister’s message on Jesus name, certain strong leaders such as Glen Cook and Frank Ewart began insisting that everyone get baptized in water in Jesus’s Name. Naturally, this New Issue, as it was called, created a lot of alarm.
Those finished-work leaders who had come to the first meeting in Hot Springs resolved not to organize into a new denomination and break the unity of the new movement suddenly saw the need to take action against the Jesus Name re-baptizing group. In fact one of the Hot Springs leaders G.T. Haywood adopted the Jesus Name baptism. The Assembly of God was essentially founded in opposition to the re-baptism in Jesus Name movement.
Now, the original Pentecostals were focused on prayer, revelation, and being led by the Spirit, but now the Jesus Only group suddenly became theologians, and re-discovered modalism. The opposition, which would became the AoG, discovered that they needed the early creeds. The Sanctification groups were also impacted by the Jesus Only controversy and they also discovered they needed the creeds.
Another issue developed, the initial evidence teaching. Now the Pentecostals having been given the left foot of fellowship by the mainline churches are now battling one another. They also begin segregating into black/white churches. The Pentecostal revival is essentially over, but the new store-fromt Pentecostal churches are seeded.
Varnel Watson
Link Hudson called it pseudo thinking he was apostolic too
Link Hudson
I am not rhe first person to suggest Simone esides Athanasius sctually wrote thecreed.
Varnel Watson
Philip Williams actually, the original Pentecostals were focused on the Apostolic Church rather than the fathers and tended to rely on revelation rather than theology or the sacraments. They didn’t do all that much studying of the Bible.
But they had a single theological issue dividing them, whether an experience of sanctification preceded baptism of the Holy Ghost with evidence of speaking in tongues.
Lets talk about this – WHAT issue allowed oneness to creep in?
Philip Williams
Troy Day that was arrogance. Insisting that one’s brothers be subject to one’s own convictions. The poison also affected those who excluded the Oneness by organizing rather than as Jesus commands us. Formerly, the issue of sanctification had not divided the Pentecostals.
Varnel Watson
the issue of sanctification had not divided the Pentecostals. – and still is NOT except for the ones who dont wanna get entirely sanctified No one shall see God lest sanctified to holiness
Philip Williams
Troy Day the issue then was whether entire sanctification was accomplished by a single experience, or whether overcoming was a process though achievable goal.