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Pentecostal Theology, Volume 26, No. 2, Fall 2004
S SP
Response
Pentecostal Seminaries are Essential to the
Future Health of the Church
Joseph L. Castleberry
After approximately one hundred years of Pentecostal history in North America, there are currently four seminaries and university divinity schools accredited by the Association of Theological Schools (ATS) that may be considered Pentecostal/Charismatic.1 These four schools are Church of God Theological Seminary, Assemblies of God Theological Seminary, Oral Roberts University’s Graduate School of Theology, and Regent University’s School of Divinity. A fifth institution, the Charles H. Mason Theological Seminary, is sponsored by the Church of God in Christ, but is a constituent part of a larger seminary that, according to school officials consulted for this study, is not distinctively Pentecostal as a whole. A sixth school, Urshan Graduate School of Theology (United Pentecostal Church), is exploring candidate status with ATS. It is important that we define the entire universe of ATS-accredited Pentecostal seminaries (n = 4) so that questions concerning their spiritual integrity and legitimacy can be eval- uated on the basis of whether they are based on any research into their actual practices. So far, no such research exists.
Since questions and even attacks do occasionally arise, it is good to present clear and compelling reasons why Pentecostal churches,
1
Regardless of how one dates the beginnings of the Pentecostal Movement, I have chosen to define Pentecostal seminaries narrowly as schools founded by the classical Pentecostal denominations or by ministries related to the Charismatic Renewal. A further note about definition is that I will use the word Pentecostal to refer to the whole Pente- costal/Charismatic community.
© 2004 Brill Academic Publishers, Inc., Boston pp. 346–354
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denominations, and ministries should sponsor graduate-level theological academies.2 Regardless of whether these are called seminaries, divinity schools, or some other name, it is important for such schools to have a very clear sense of mission. One of the most fundamental reasons for the existence of such accrediting agencies as ATS is to keep seminaries focused on their special purpose of training ministers and doctors of the Church. For that reason, the leaders of ATS, like its executive director Dan Aleshire, will often be quoted as asking fundamental questions about the value and purpose of a seminary education. Such self-questioning is to be applauded, not taken as evidence of declension.3
Institutional Shortcomings of Seminaries
In order to stay focused on their particular mission, seminaries must regularly recognize their strengths and face up to their shortcomings. A list of the shortcomings of graduate-level academic preparation for the ministry is easy to compile. First, seminaries can never become a substi- tute for churches. Like lawyers, doctors, teachers, and other profession- als, theologically reflective ministers cannot be fully trained in the most practical aspects of their craft within the walls of the academy. Just as the hands-on learning of surgery, courtroom procedure, and teaching must ulti- mately occur in real contexts of internship and post-graduation practice, the practical aspects of ministry are best learned in practice in real churches. While seminaries can give a theoretical basis for ministerial practice, offer rudimentary experiences in artificial environments, and get students started in ministry through field education opportunities, they can never forget that it is the church that must always do most of the hands-on training of its ministers.
Second, seminaries can never eliminate the role of the non-professional Christian worker. Not all ministers need seven or more years of academic
2
It is curious that Jon Ruthven questions the validity of postgraduate seminaries, but he allows that university religion departments might be valid: “Perhaps the university, where the rules are somewhat less ambiguous, rather than the seminary, is the more appropriate venue for Christian scholarship.” Since he teaches in a university divinity school, the state- ment would seem to be self-serving. Does he propose that we ban ministerial candidates from studying in such university schools? If not, then it would seem that the problem is not whether a school is a seminary, but rather, whether it is called one.
3
It is important to state that ATS accreditation does not impose any kind of dampen- ing on Pentecostal doctrine per se. The organization is far too diverse ever to get away with trying either to impose or suppress any particular doctrine.
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training in order to fulfill the ministry to which God has called them. Indeed, it would seem to be the case that the majority of Christian workers should not attend seminary. Pentecostal churches have always known this truth, and typically do not require specific academic credentials for ordi- nation. We know from the sociological study of religion as well as from common-sense observation in Pentecostal life that the total professional- ization of the clergy is not desirable.4 Consequently, seminaries should not fall into the error of universalizing or even overestimating their importance.
A third shortcoming of seminaries is that the knowledge they convey academically cannot replace the greater value of knowledge gained from an intimate walk with God in the Holy Spirit. Theology—or, as Anselm described it, “faith seeking understanding”—is always a second-order activ- ity. Faith—defined as a personal relationship with the living God through the Holy Spirit—must always precede, coincide with, and exceed its theo- logical exploration. Unfortunately, the fallen human nature consistently tempts us to exalt understanding illegitimately over faith. Seminaries must take this tendency into account in seeking to provide spiritual formation to students.
Unfortunately, the seminary’s task in spiritual formation is made more difficult in that it is sometimes expected to take a leading role in a mat- ter in which it has a trailing relevance. Spiritual formation, to some degree, is most relevant at the personal level, secondly at the church level, and finally at the academic level. A thorough exploration of the scriptures, of our Christian theological tradition, and of the psychological and social tasks of ministry is the primary role of seminaries, and no agency can do this task better than seminaries do. The specific spiritual formation task of seminaries is directly related to processing the spiritual issues that emanate from such deep investigation of the “basic theological sciences.” If students come to seminary from the church without a deep sense of calling (and the spirituality that produces it and then flows through it), without a personal habit of spiritual discipline and walking in the Spirit, and without a commitment to the church as the Holy Spirit’s primary
4
See Liston Pope, Millhands and Preachers (New York: Yale University Press, 1942); Thomas S. O’Dea and Thomas F. O’Dea, The Sociology of Religion (Englewood Cliffs, NJ: Prentice-Hall, Inc., 1966); Margaret M. Poloma, The Assemblies of God at the Crossroads: Charismatic and Institutional Dilemmas (Knoxville: University of Tennessee Press, 1989); Eldin Villafañe, The Liberating Spirit: Toward an Hispanic American Pentecostal Social Ethic (Lanham, MD: University Press of America, 1994).
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instrument in achieving the Great Commission, then seminaries are in a poor position to meet their need for basic spiritual formation.
There are a number of reasons why seminaries are poorly suited to do the most basic kind of spiritual formation. Because the Pentecostal tradi- tion does not include a monastic tradition and does not provide sufficient financing to its seminaries to allow them to be cloistered communities, our seminaries face constant competition from the extracurricular lives of students. In addition to pursuing a rigorous program of study, seminari- ans typically have marriages to tend, children to raise, outside jobs that pay for their studies, local church activities to attend, and friendships to enjoy. Problems, challenges, and tragedies—not to mention temptations— arise from all of these contexts, and they mix together with the spiritual challenges that come from academic rigor.
Although most Pentecostal/Charismatic students who come to semi- nary arrive having already experienced significant spiritual formation, those who come without adequate spiritual formation from their personal and church lives may find that their faith suffers and even fails. When Pentecostal seminaries occasionally make poor admissions decisions and allow such students to enter their communities, they will sometimes see them falter or wane in their spiritual zeal.5 On the other hand, when students come to Pentecostal seminaries with their spiritual lives in order, ready to take on rigorous studies, they routinely graduate with a depth of spiritual strength that is very uncommon among less educated Christians.
Critics like Jon Ruthven do well to raise questions about whether the atmosphere of rational rigor at Pentecostal seminaries may have a role in suppressing basic Pentecostal spirituality. This must be a perennial con- sideration if we are to maintain our integrity as Pentecostal institutions. It would be foolhardy, however, to respond to this issue by abandoning the rigorous integration of faith and intellect—the essential project of post- graduate Pentecostal academies. Despite the shortcomings of Pentecostal academies as institutions, their strengths easily justify their existence.
There are many reasons why accredited seminaries are essential to the future health of the Pentecostal Movement. The first of these reasons has to do with the enculturation of Pentecostalism. We cannot pretend that
5
The fact that seminary students sometimes wane in their spiritual lives must be bal- anced by the fact that church members are also vulnerable to backsliding. There is no research data available to suggest that seminarians are more likely to suffer spiritual strug- gles than nonseminarians.
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Pentecostal churches and ministries can simply ignore two thousand years of the development of Western culture and abandon the most respected form of education in that culture. While it is undeniable that Jesus did not train his disciples in a Western academic setting, it is fair to say that the cultural setting of the church has become more diverse in its post-Pentecost form.
It is an inescapable fact that in Western culture, the church must aca- demically certify its leaders if they are to have credibility in the larger society and within the church itself. Evidence of this fact is the almost universal concern among Pentecostal leaders that their children go to col- lege, seminary, and other graduate and professional schools. Pentecostal leaders realize that the marks of a poor education—non-standard grammar, small vocabulary, theological naïveté, ignorance of business and manage- ment principles—not only hinder the work of the church internally, but also harm the church’s reputation in the larger society. Like the founders of Harvard College they “[dread] to leave an illiterate ministry to the churches, when our present ministers shall lie in the dust.”6 They also desire to spare their children the embarrassment of a substandard educa- tion in a society whose dominant culture demands academic certification of learning.
When Pentecostal seminaries are accredited by ATS, their graduates can say that they have the same accreditation as Harvard, Princeton, and Yale. Anything less would be unacceptable in our culture. As a career mis- sionary, I have learned that religious leaders who ignore or despise the culture in which they are attempting to establish their faith have little hope of success. Unless the Gospel is sufficiently enculturated, it has no hope of taking root. In North America, church-related academies that lack accred- itation will not prosper for very long.
A second justification for the existence of accredited Pentecostal sem- inaries is sociological. Pentecostal schools—like most other religious schools founded in America—are born in the fire of revival. Unfortunately, history tells us that no revival has ever been able to sustain itself indefinitely. Even the paradigm Pentecostal revival at Azusa Street lasted for less than five years. People know, either by instinct or experience, that revival, or
6
Anonymous. “New England’s First Fruits,” in American Higher Education: A Documentary History, Vol. 1, ed. R. Hofstader and W. Smith (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1961), 6.
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charisma as Weber, O’Dea, and Poloma have taught us to say, is fleeting. As O’Dea explained, “charismatic phenomena are unstable and temporary and can prolong their existence only by becoming routinized—that is, by becoming transformed or incorporating themselves into the routine insti- tutionalized structures of society.”7 Institutionalization is simply the most secure means of ensuring the persistence of charisma, even if it paradox- ically threatens also to suppress it.
At the most basic level, churches themselves are the result of institu- tionalization. Imagine whether Christianity could have spread if the apos- tles had not set up churches in the places where they preached the Gospel. If we are to reject institutionalization, then we must also reject the Church itself. Those who point to Jesus’ method of training disciples without a school should also remember that there is no record that he ever founded a local congregation, nor built a building, nor took an offering, nor reg- istered his ministry with the government, nor filed papers for tax exemp- tion. Is anyone willing to argue, with a straight face, that Jesus was anti-institutional?
The organization of institutions, that is, academies, to focus on the training of professional Christian workers, including theologians, biblical experts, educators, missionaries, researchers, and the like, is an unavoid- able sociological need of Pentecostal churches in Western society. While it is wonderfully true that most Christian workers should be trained by local churches in nonformal and informal ways, it is also true that formal academies are unparalleled in their success in promoting deep knowledge, careful research, and critical evaluation of thought.
The essential spiritual dilemma of Pentecostal academies is not “how can we stave off institutionalization?” but rather, “how can we keep charisma alive in the midst of the institutions we have founded to perpetuate it?” My experience at Assemblies of God Theological Seminary (AGTS) is that administrators, professors, students, and staff are all deeply concerned about letting the Holy Spirit direct the life of the seminary. My personal relationships with colleagues at the other Pentecostal seminaries tell me that they too are deeply concerned about keeping charisma alive in their midst. Rather than seeing this struggle as evidence that Pentecostal sem- inaries are illegitimate, a sociologically informed perspective would applaud them for courageously embracing a basic tension of social and religious life.
7
O’Dea and O’Dea, The Sociology of Religion, 23.
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A third justification for Pentecostal seminaries is anthropological, in the theological sense, and related to the value of human capacities. While it may be idealistically argued that Christians should depend only on the leading of the Spirit and should not employ human resources, it would seem that the biblical pattern and the phenomenological experience of the church is that God does indeed use human resources anointed by his Spirit. The transparent evidence in Scripture of the personalities, talents, and abil- ities of the biblical writers makes it obvious that God anoints the charac- teristics of human beings in accomplishing his work. The fact that God’s formula for church finance involves the giving of tithes and offerings from the resources of people shows that human resources matter to God.
We do not do wrong when we sharpen human resources and then sub- mit them to the Spirit’s anointing. A famous anecdote from the life of John Wesley tells of an occasion when he was preaching an open-air sermon. Someone from the crowd shouted at him, “God doesn’t need your knowl- edge.” Wesley responded, “Nor does he need your ignorance!” The truth is that they are both partly wrong. God can use both education and igno- rance. The cognitive processes with which God himself has graced the human race would lead us to believe that God can do more with yielded preparation than yielded ignorance. Still, while we should glory in the God who can even use ignorance, we should never glory in our own igno- rance. Rather than thanking God that we are ignorant, we would do bet- ter to sharpen our minds in grateful response to God’s willingness to use us in whatever state we offer ourselves.
It is precisely in the area of sharpening human resources that semi- naries shine. While alternative means of training Christian workers may succeed in terms of basic Christian knowledge, they have an insignificant record in the training of biblical scholars, historians, theologians, profes- sional counselors and psychologists, and other kinds of professionals capa- ble of doing credible research. Can anyone seriously argue that the Pentecostal Church does not need such professionals?
Without rigorously trained Bible scholars, we would be cut off from the original text of the Bible and subject to endless corruptions of the Word. Without Pentecostal historians, what memory of our heritage would we retain to guide and challenge us? Without theologians we would con- demn every Christian to struggle for understanding of the faith without access to the best minds of our generation and the ones before us. While some would argue that we should follow the training methods of large
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Pentecostal groups overseas that abuse the saints by doing absurd things like having them vomit up demons in the altars of their churches, it would seem better to train pastors with at least a semi-professional knowledge of psychology. The voices of Christian psychological professionals give the church guidance in negotiating the thin line between the spiritual and the psychological.
Is it necessary to remind mature Pentecostal believers that an environ- ment of scriptural corruption, ahistorical immediatism, theological inco- herence, and psychological excess was exactly what our leaders were struggling against when they first founded Pentecostal Bible schools? As those schools matured, a constant dilemma occurred as there were no Pentecostal textbooks for them to read. Developing credible Pentecostal writers meant sending them to the academy, where they were too often subjected to ideas and environments that militated against the Pentecostal faith they were training to preserve. In response, we have founded Pentecostal seminaries.
The result is that we are better now than we have ever been in offer- ing a rational account of Pentecostal faith that both satisfies the mind and leaves the Spirit free to work in us. Not only have we succeeded in train- ing first-rate Pentecostal scholars who are increasingly taking roles of lead- ership in their fields, but we have also trained a large cadre of theologically reflective pastors who are well equipped to translate the ministry of Pentecostal scholarship into the quotidian, grass-roots reality of our churches. While all pastors may not need to pursue a master’s degree, we do well to train as many as have talent and interest at the highest levels of theo- logical reflection so that they may share their wisdom with the colleagues they will be called on to lead intellectually.
Best of all, we have founded four Pentecostal seminaries where stu- dents can study at high scholarly levels while also being encouraged to be men and women full of the Holy Spirit. Unlike seminarians in all other contexts, students in these schools are free to speak in tongues, lay on hands for healing, offer prophecies, and exercise spiritual gifts—not only in chapel, but occasionally in the classroom as well. There is an environ- ment characterized by serious study as well as serious commitment to the Spirit-filled life. Never satisfied that we are yielded enough to the Spirit, we continually pray for revival and exhort one another to greater sensi- tivity to God.
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Such academic environments are a credit to the Pentecostal commu- nity, and they play an important role in ensuring its future spiritual and intellectual health. Even as we faithfully pray and work and struggle to keep such environments alive, even as we continually assess our effec- tiveness as accreditation and integrity demand of us, we push on in the fulfillment of our mission. Pentecostal churches are reaping a rich harvest of our fruits, and we thank God for the privilege of serving the Kingdom.
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Anonymous
Isn’t ATS a conservative accrediting body and the libs have another one? Why would they consider a UPC school?
Anonymous
Link Hudson may you can post a video about it and then delete it in time? https://www.pentecostaltheology.com/complete-list-of-theological-seminaries/
Anonymous
https://youtu.be/QtTIJbGtdsY?si=w1lwGfgfmHpuZLss
Anonymous
This from the person who never went to Bible or Seminary John Mushenhouse Oscar Valdez Neil Steven Lawrence Jerome Herrick Weymouth … https://www.pentecostaltheology.com/the-1970-asbury-college-revival/
Anonymous
Troy Day Overall, I enjoyed my time is school. While there was a bunch of nonsense, I did meet a few friends whom I am still close in fellowship. The part I most like was I was able to communicate with a few mature instructors which increased my knowledge base. Yes, I saw what could happen if you went against the system, but I figured I would never be fit for the system. In the seminaries I attended many students told some professors my comments and my actions were because I was a Pentecostal and they were not used to that. Having good grades gave you some cred as well although I have some stories about confronting liberal professors and game playing students.
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse some ppl just try to be over-theological or over-spiritual That’s the truth right there but without education you just dont know https://www.pentecostaltheology.com/should-education-be-mandatory-for-young-pentecostal-ministers/
Anonymous
take the Asbury’s revivals with a grain of salt. Yes the students showed personal piety, but few went and told the masses. I thought the Jesus people movement was of the Spirit due to the changes we still see today.
Anonymous
last one maybe yes NOT the first one though https://www.pentecostaltheology.com/the-1970-asbury-college-revival/
Anonymous
Troy Day It is hard with those who have the mindset that all formal training is anti-Holy Spirit. I see that in dull/rash off the head emotional sermons that are not biblically sound and keeps the flock in an immature state. On the other side some who come from these backgrounds see a time in school as an ego lift and they buy into everything the school teaches as a robot without any thoughtful prayer. That. to me. is anti-Holy Spirit. Of course Bible colleges and Seminaries are to produce the producers and socialize you into the field in the direction which the Professors see fit for all. Again, I saw that as dung. Sadly, look at some of the posts by those overwhelmed by a limited education ) although they believe it is the peak). They have lost any sense of reality of the Spirit intended ministry and wish to show how wise they are under the justification of doing ministry.
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse the video is a copout for not having Christian education – I am not sure that ANYONE in ministry would agree with ignorance
Anonymous
Troy Day I don’t think you watched the video before commenting on it.
Much of it has to do with the problems of the system of ignoring Biblical qualifications and substituting them with education, rather than with education.
Anonymous
Link Hudson I actually did and read all the comments as I always do JUST like I remember watching the whole video you deleted back then
Anonymous
Troy Day Okay… then a comprehension problem I presume.
Anonymous
Link Hudson well when the videos get deleted and the info distorted …
Anonymous
Troy Day I don’t know what you are talking about.
Are you talking about a video that I made and posted on YouTube and are you saying that I deleted that video? From here or YouTube?
That story seems to change because a while back it changed to me the leading of a copy of someone else’s video from this form or something like that was it?
I have commented on how there was polygamy in the Old Testament. I have addressed house some missionaries have handled the issue of polygamy in the people groups they were reaching out to. I have never endorsed polygamy for the New Testament Church.
I may have deleted some videos that turned out to be 5 Second Clips or a few videos here and there one on John MacArthur but I never remember deleting any kind of video on polygamy.
I know I deleted a ‘dead horse’ type thread on this forum when you kept tagging me on it for years, but it wasn’t about polygamy.
Anonymous
Link Hudson talking about the deleted video that is no more – what is SO hard to understand? You admitted to it and I’ve forgotten it
Anonymous
Troy Day do other people point out that you remember things that didn’t happen?
You said a while back you might be mistaken and then you continued with your insinuations. Now you say I admitted it admitted what? did I delete a thread on some video I posted as fodder for discussion because you kept tagging me? It’s possible something like that happened and I forgot about the video. Or maybe some video of somebody I posted was a video made by polygamist and I didn’t know it and you did. I looked up the topic in the Forum and somebody else had posted a video about an offshoot of the Branhamites that were polygamists but that wasn’t my post. But you seem to be insinuating that I did something wrong, and that’s the problem. if you have something specific to accuse me of with some kind of evidence then out with it otherwise just be quiet about it.
Sid I make a video endorsing polygamy or a post endorsing polygamy. No, that is not consistent with my belief system or with the posts that I’ve made on YouTube since about 2007 on the SaudaraLink channel or my videos on Facebook under my name or on my For the Faith page.
Anonymous
Link Hudson sure until I find what they actually said recorded and then they run just like you did NOW Why would you say this?
I may have deleted some videos that turned out to be 5 Second Clips or a few videos here and there one on John MacArthur but I never remember deleting any kind of video
The polygamic roots of the video was something you introduced when it was said it was about battering wife or something of the sort. We can find the precious your comments you posted about it but what is the point? You admitted there was a video – now the video is gone. Perhaps YT took it off and not you – what does it matter? How do you see this related to a post on education? Why do you always attack other people in an angry and vindicate attempt to justify yourself? Can you just discuss the OP like a normal person?
for example I asked how can you make a video on bible school or seminary when you never attended one? Is this video refer to ORU that rejected you on grounds of faith convictions and doctrinal clarity?
Anonymous
Troy Day you make up more junk about me again. ORU offered me a job but I declined to sign a fountain of the Lord which could quite easily be broken any number of ways and also include a vow of obedience and a foul of exercise with no time limit on the vowel. I went for a year unemployed because I wanted to obey Christ words ‘swear not at all.’ money was tied but my family and I had a roof over our heads and food to eat the entire time. So ORU did not reject me over any doctrinal issue but offered me a job and the dean of the school respected my integrity and making the decision that you put it.
again you should not imagine falsehoods about people and state them as if they are facts as you seem to be doing with this accusation about polygamy videos. I am not familiar with the term ‘polygamist roots’. it is possible somebody else use that in a video but I don’t have any video by that title or on that topic. I have mentioned the fact that certain Old Testament Figures were polygamists even some who are righteous before God that’s a theological issue that many of us have to deal with if we’re reading the Bible but that shouldn’t be too controversial for a Pentecostal since Pentecostals also read and teach out of the Old Testament.
instead of the insinuations why don’t you clearly explain what it is you think you are accusing me of.
A while back I posted a link to Irenaues I found which was from a gnosis website and gnosis means knowledge in Greek and I didn’t think much of it. I hadn’t read the site and I didn’t know that it was a gnostic website but you insisted that everybody knows. (Out of the billions pages on the web.)
So now you’re trying to paint me as some kind of a gnostic because of me just quoting a page on the internet and for some reason you’re trying to paint Philip Williams as some kind of Roman Catholic who believes in purgatory.
The Bible warns against slander and evil speaking. Maybe you think this is funny or that this is friendly teasing.
But other people don’t get the inside jokes that you have going on inside your own mind. And corrupt communications can hurt other people’s reputations. If you want to talk about sanctification from time to time that is good but you can also walk in sanctification in the way that you communicate about other brethren
Anonymous
Link Hudson declined to sign a fountain of the Lord 🙂 that QUITE tells it all – you are forgetting I’ve worked in more Christian colleges you ever visited. The doctrinal agreement which both AG and COG require now is based on anti-gay resolutions they voted to adhere. So the doctrinal agreement you were asked to singed was to make sure you are NOT bringing any gay, polygamy, gambling, drinking, etc. otherwise issues to the college where you were seeking employment. Your refusal to show doctrinal adherences thereby resulted in a premature termination ! And ol Phil does believe in some sort of purgatory as he dont believe the Spirit is the 2nd person in the Trinity as you well know that
Anonymous
Troy Day we’ll, you don’t work at ORU, do you? does that mean you must be gay? or a polygamist? how many people have you had sexual relations with in your lifetime? I have only been with my wife.
The reason I turned down the ORU job was because it required swearing an oath. the late Vinson Synon in was a witness to what happened. So was the dean of the college in several other faculty members who had a discussion with me on the matter.
The issue was requiring me to swear about to the Lord which I don’t believe Christians should do.
Even from Old Testament standards the valve was very easy to break and so is not in line with the Proverbs. Miss chape once? You break it out of the Lord. Don’t follow the exercise program? You break about to the Lord? you take communion at a Church of God in Indonesia or at you drink real wine for communion at Yoido Full Gospel in South Korea and there’s a little bit of wine in there from Israel mixed in? You broke a vow to the Lord.
I did not want to disobey Christ or put myself under bondage.
this vow to the Lord’s stuff is from the Charusmatic movement, esp. WOF, and isn’t in line with some of the more Pentecostal views from the churches that have Holiness backgrounds. not sure how it ended up at ORU that’s kind of fits with the word of faith environment in the city maybe.
Anonymous
Link Hudson There is no need for you to become defensive just because asked. I do not take communion at a Church of God in Indonesia or drink real wine for communion at Yoido Full Gospel in South Korea … Is this the 1.12 THE HONOR CODE PLEDGE you refused to agree upon with ORU?
5. I PLEDGE at all times to keep my total being under subjection from all immoral and illegal
actions and communications, whether on or off campus. I will not take any illegal drugs or
misuse any drugs; I will not engage in or attempt to engage in any illicit, unscriptural sexual
acts, which include any homosexual activity and sexual intercourse with one who is not my
spouse through traditional marriage of one man and one woman. I will not drink alcoholic
beverages of any kind; I will not use tobacco; I will not engage in other behavior that is contrary
to the rules and regulations listed in the Student Handbook.
Anonymous
Troy Day whatever the 2018 version of the honor code was. It turned having a lead foot on the highway and catching yourself and saying ‘oh I shouldn’t be driving so fast’ into a grievous sin against the Lord of violating the vow. If you get a cold or get tested positive for covid in 2020 and the administration says don’t come to the chapel and then if you do go to chapel then you violated your vow and if you don’t go to chapel then you violated your vow.
Anonymous
Link Hudson You can see how ANY school board would reject you for not signing this contract OR any other contract they offer you ==>
I understand that my signature below
is my acceptance of the entire Honor Code and completes a contract between me and Oral
Roberts University, which is a prerequisite for matriculation and my continued association with the
University. M
Anonymous
Troy Day look at the vowing in the honor code abd they make a big deal of vowing it every year in chapel service.
If it was just a matter of a green to go to chapel and if I didn’t they can fire me that’s one thing but vowing to the Lord is another.
Talking with people there they seem to either not read it or not take it as seriously as I did which is probably why they worked there.
Anonymous
Link Hudson Its a contract. I see your point and makes sense to you BUT any school job etc requires contract which includes certain conduct. Most schools would merge together the contract and the conduct nowadays to avoid liability. Your refusal to sign was seen as you having:
immoral and illegal actions and communications
OR misuse any drugs
OR illicit, unscriptural sexual acts, which include any homosexuals
OR drink alcoholic beverages of any kind
OR use tobacco;
OR other behavior that is contrary to rules and regulations listed
so it was an easy choice to make. It would have been different if this was some liberal company like google or amazona which requires per contract that you are OK with gay lets say. But as is your case is like everyone else’s – you did not want to sign contract they dismissed you
Anonymous
Troy Day I was very clear that the issue was requiring me to swear an oath contrary to the teachings of Jesus. such a requirement is not very Pentecostal is it? Maybe WOF. It always hurts me deeply if I saw Bob Tilton on TV in the 1980 telling people to make a vow to the Lord to support his ministry so he can come back and ask other people to make a vow to support his ministry.
Anonymous
Troy Day I also told them that I didn’t drink but if they were wine in communion I didn’t have a problem with that and sometimes I took communion overseas and it had wine in it. the president said in an interview that that shouldn’t be a problem. But I was presented with documents to agree to a vow that would make it a sin for me to do so. and the administration went by and allow me to add an addendum or scratch anything out and I learned that they make a big deal out of signing it every year so I didn’t want to sit against the Lord and I just decided to trust him for provision and move on. It was an obvious choice for me but a little bit hard for my wife to accept. she had preachers talking to me on Facebook Messenger or other apps trying to tell me that it’s no big deal I needed to support my family and just agree to it. When she sat down and read it herself she realized she didn’t want to be in bondage to such a vow either
I have two or three people tell me that I didn’t understand nobody followed up with you to make sure you’re following the contract anyway. I said God knows. some people laughed and said I was probably the first person who had actually read the contract anyway. the primary issue wasn’t the terms of the contract it was the fact that they wanted me to vow it to the Lord in spite of Jesus saying swear not at all. Then secondarily the foolish vow issue– vows that are easy to break with no end date on the vow.
Anonymous
Link Hudson yeah but they cannot risk the liability Especially if their school board or trustees have voted on this. Cant be no exceptions. Put yourself in their shoes – if you do not sign the contract and turn gay you can sue them for oppressing your rights and all. It;’s a matter of fact
Anonymous
Troy Day I thought the president could have been without a choice on the matter. He may not have thought through the issue when he said it wasn’t going to be a problem but that yet there was a valve involved in it. What troubled me about it was asking all of those young people and also faculty and staff to sign a vow to the Lord when the Lord said swear not at all and also a vow that could so easily be broken inadvertantly.. and requiring a vow of obedience. Do they have a seminary and not realizing just how heavy vowing to the Lord actually is to me seems to be a problem.
And you may have a point there about the Board of Trustees actually signing off on it. But I might have signed an agreement if it didn’t have a vowel and there was an expiration date when I was no longer employed there.
Anonymous
Troy Day they also have Pentecostal students coming in I presume. And there are Pentecostal denominations that acknowledge the problem with swearing owes at the very least as a point of conscience. CH and COGOP for example.
Anonymous
Link Hudson what about CH and COGOP? I am no expert on them either
Anonymous
Troy Day I recall in the 1990’s reading something at least supporting people in not swearing as a conscience issue and possibly a reference to the issue in relation to secret societies. I recall at least some sort of support for those who think it’s wrong in COGOP literature. I have never been in COGOP and it has been decades since I was a part of a CH church.
I can’t remember IPHC addressing it, either, in their literature.
Anonymous
Troy Day Btw, do you have a problem with the points I made about the Bible College system? My wife went to one. I know some of her school friends, and I’ve seen how the system works in Indonesia.
I also observe that some churches and movements focus on the idea of preachers being ‘called’ as a qualification, called to preach, called to pastor, or whatever. Some movements focus on educational requirements. With Indonesian Pentecostals, it can go either way. Going the education route can get one on track for a ministerial career. Back when I was there many years ago, that could be a very piddly-paying music or staff job in the big city, or a pastoral job way out in the country.
The problem with both systems is that the Bible give neither of these as requirements to fulfill to be an overseer of the church. There are a couple of lists. Being the husband of one wife, ruling one’s family well… the list goes on and on.
Part of the problem is renaming the role as ‘pastor’ when the passages with the requirements do not contain the word ‘pastor’ and readers have to do a bit of digging into the Greek or church history or both to make the connection.
Anonymous
Link Hudson I have problem with ANYONE making points about anything they dont have a clue about. Not sure where your wife went to OR if it equates to what is being discussed here Did she go to ANY PENTECOSTAL SEMINARIES ESSENTIAL TO THE FUTURE HEALTH OF THE CHURCH? So if my student comes to me and tells me I am submitting this paper on a book my wife read – a big fat F is in his future!
Anonymous
https://www.pentecostaltheology.com/non-denominational-pentecostal-response/
Anonymous
A history found in the archives of the Sam Jones United Memorial Methodist Church suggests that the 1884 outside revival likely inspired his idea for the success that an open – air tabernacle could offer. He saw opportunity for reaching greater numbers of people and supplementing his income by using the revival as a tool to meet his calling.
Two years following the bush-arbor revival, Sam Jones proposed to the city of Cartersville to furnish him with ten acres of land on which he would build a tabernacle to preach the gospel. Records reflect that the city complied providing him with a property west of town where Sam Jones built the facility from his personal funds.
A June 17, 1886 article entitled, The Tabernacle, appeared in the Courant American newspaper and reported that a number of citizens met in the Opera House (Grand Theater vicinity) to consider Rev. Sam Jones’ proposal to erect a tabernacle. Business leaders attending the meeting realized the great good that would bring to the community if such an institution were established. The motion was approved; board of trustees appointed and work on the tabernacle began soon after. The trustees consisted of: R. H. Jones, R. M. Pattillo, W. H. Howard, J. T. Owen, T. W. Akin, S. L. Vandivere and E. D. Graham.
According to deed records the board assembled a tract of land in two separate purchases. The first was from Mr. Thomas W. Milner on September 16, 1886 in the amount of $500.00. A second purchase adjoining the first was made from Mr. William M. Graham on July 23, 1888 for $155.00. Interestingly, the trustees quickly conveyed a portion of Tabernacle land to the newly formed and incorporated Sam Jones Female College on November 4th, 1886.
Anonymous
yes they are Philip Williams Oscar Valdez Ricky Grimsley
Anonymous
Troy Day is Reformed theology creeping into the Pentecostal seminaries?
Anonymous
Philip Williams In Europe it is liberal theology which is influencing Pentecostal seminaries and seminaries with an charismatic touch, visited by Pentecostals. This is known and prevents students from joining. But many Pentecostals are happy to have found the friendship of liberals against ‘evangelical fundamentalists’. Conservative Pentecostals have only limited possibilities as occational guest lectureres.
Anonymous
Gottfried Sommer that’s happening in America’s Baptist circles with the likes of men like Russell Moore.
Anonymous
Philip Williams The main problem is that conservative Pentecostals don’t understand who to support more analytic minded Pentecostal scholars but slander them out of antiintelectual furor as liberals. So that theacademic landscape is ‘cleansed’ and liberales, supported by their circles, are winning the field.
Anonymous
Gottfried Sommer exactly, as we see in the case of Troy Day!
Anonymous
Gottfried Sommer Live holy and righteous, and I will let you go through the Great Tribulation (Things Jesus NEVER said)
Anonymous
Troy Day
Gottfried Sommer, see how Reformed theology has corrupted Pentecostals!
”For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.“
Matthew 5:20
Anonymous
Pentecostal theology is an aberration, not sound.
Anonymous
not sure my old friend @Stanley Wayne would agree with you but Philip Williams may as he thinks America is in the BIBLE too
Anonymous
Troy Day is the Church in the Bible?
Anonymous
Philip Williams what exactly are you asking ?
Anonymous
Troy Day does the Bible anyplace point to the future history of the church especially to a nation actually created by and for Christians?
Anonymous
Philip Williams Yes the Bible point to the future history of the church
Anonymous
Troy Day should not the first nation created by and for Christians be foretold in that future history?
Anonymous
you seem still in your sins Philip Williams
Anonymous
Troy Day redeemed am I!