One is your Heavenly Father

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Marc Jackson Here we go bro. Randal Dan Joseph D. AbsherText, context, pre-text, subtext, podtext and the Greek text. Complete discussion  with all the fixingsLet’s not forget again: Priesthood of ALL believersNo transferable concepts in Pentecostalism
Joseph D. Absher You have to have a very expensive education to argue with Jesus. If I remember correctly it didn’t work out to well for the Pharisees back then and it probably won’t work out for them to good now….just saying.
Randal W Deese What exactly are you referring to?
Joseph D. Absher Did you read the text
Marc Jackson No expensive education needed here. Greek is pretty straight forward Jesus is pretty direct in His orders – Call no one …
Randal W Deese Jesus would never contradict the truth seen in both the Old Testament And New Testament
Marc Jackson Matt 23:9b …. for One is your Heavenly Father I’ve never noticed the textual disparity between the Textus Receptus and the Wescott-Hort/ GNT for this verse.The Textus Receptus:εἷς γάρ ἐστιν ὁ πατὴρ ὑμῶν ὁ ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖςEIS GAR ESTIN hO PATHR hUMON hO EN TOIS OURANOIS”…for one is our Father who is in heaven.”The Westcott-Hort/ GNT:εἷς γάρ ἐστιν ὑμῶν ὁ πατὴρ ὁ οὐράνιος EIS GAR ESTIN hUMON hO PATHR hO OURANIOS”…for one is our heavenly Father.”That’s definitely evidence of an intentional scribal alteration. Nevertheless, they do essentially mean the same thing.
Randal W Deese Troy Day I know what the Greeks says… But Jesus was just using a hyperbolic statement
Marc Jackson Do you have a pointer or insight into what words hRABBI, PATHR,> and KAQHGHTHS meant to a first century Jew? Specifically how those> words are used in this context. I take them to be titles, and if> that is true, what did these people do?>
Randal W Deese Troy Day Call no man your Father alludes to the Ab, or father of the Sanhedrin, who was the next after the nasi, or president. S
Marc Jackson This combination of hyperbole and imperative causes me to lean towards the iimpression that these are titles which are not to be sought by religious leaders whowish to sit and speak with the authority of Moses, when they should be humble beforeGod
Randal W Deese Troy Day Jesus was being very precise… He was not talking about just guarding the term father in any kind of way…
Marc Jackson dont look that way – pls look at my comment below
Randal W Deese Troy Day , a careful examination of the context of Matthew 23 shows that Jesus didn’t intend for his words here to be understood literally. The whole passage reads, “But you are not to be called ‘rabbi,’ for you have one teacher, and you are all brethren. And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. Neither be called ‘masters,’ for you have one master, the Christ” (Matt. 23:8–10).
Marc Jackson Solomon J. Solomon wrote an interesting article on this in Jewish Quarterly Review vol 13 (1900-1901). Briefly, Solomon gave some reasons to support the proposition that first century Jews used PATHR approximately the same way we would use “saint.” Solomon understood hRABBI as “my master;” however, I can’t help wondering if Jesus was using the title a bit more sarcastically “my great one.” KAQHGHTHS, Solomon claims, was equivalent to moreh (Aramaic malfono) which is generally translated “teacher” or “guide” but is translated twice in the Targum of Isa 30:20 as Shekhina.
Marc Jackson It dont look to be that simple Randal The leader of the prophetic band seems to have been known as the father.RabbiRabbi seems to derive from the Hebrew RaB meaning “chief.” A humorous usage of this (if I’m not misunderstanding it) is in 2 Kings 25.8 which is normally translated “captain of the guard” The Hebrew is RaB_+aB.fXiYM. Jesus was plainly  making fun of them “fathers”Lets face it Scotty Searan Joseph D. Absher No one in Pentecostalism calls the preacher father AND for a reason We believe in the Priesthood of ALL believers not just priests
Randal W Deese Actually, that is not true. I have heard pastors in Pentecostal Churches refer to men as their spiritual fathers many times
Dan Irving It is common in WOF assemblies, where they emphasize “coverings.”  ie. where you can come beneath the spiritual “covering” of this or that (usually heretical) teacher.  But this doctrine is rejected, I believe, by most mainstream denominations.
Randal W Deese Dan Irving I dunt go to WOF churches
Randal W Deese Dan Irving Many use this out of context verse to support not calling people “father”, but call people “doctor” – smh
Randal W Deese Simple question: Is Abraham your spiritual Father?
Dan Irving Same ol’ red herring.  I have one spiritual Father.
Marc Jackson For the Bible tells me so
Randal W Deese Dan Irving Timothy has two
Dan Irving Who would you suggest I call “Father?”
Marc Jackson Forgive me father for I have .. . naah
Randal W Deese Dan Irving whoever you consider a spiritual father…like Abraham..very scriptural
Marc Jackson Father Abraham had many sons …
Dan Irving I don’t consider any man on earth my spiritual father.
Marc Jackson Father Abraham had many sons .Many sons had Father Abraham I am one of them and so are you. So let’s all praise the Lord.
Dan Irving 1)  Jesus commanded we call no man on earth, “Father.”2)  In no NT case, does any man call another man, “Father.”That is sufficient basis to reject your tradition-of-men.
Randal W Deese Dan Irving So Paul didn’t call Abraham Father? Are you serious?
Randal W Deese Paul didn’t tempt all the churches by telling them he was their Father?
Dan Irving Paul never addressed Abraham as “Father.”
Dan Irving Paul never suggested he be addressed as “Father.”  (apples to oranges)
Dan Irving You are conferring idolatrous titles upon men, when scripture is only expressing relationship.
Randal W Deese Dan Irving It was normal to consider a spiritual leader father. I bet you don’t consider anyone father.. But normal in NT
Dan Irving I answered your point.  You have no reply?
Randal W Deese Dan Irving All Titles can be idolatrous… Even brother
Dan Irving Did Paul ever address anyone as “Father?”
Dan Irving Did he even teach that we are address men as “Father?”
Randal W Deese Dan Irving Paul considered Himself a father… Was it just in fun
Dan Irving You’re avoiding an answer.
Randal W Deese Dan Irving He called Abraham Father… Jesus forbid it according to you
Dan Irving The answer is “No.”
Randal W Deese Dan Irving He CALLED Abraham Father. You can’t get around it. Too clear!
Dan Irving You are asserting we ADDRESS men as “Father.”  Therefore, THAT is the issue you must prove.
Dan Irving Jesus was clearly forbidding we ADDRESS men as “Father,” (not that we avoid using “father” as a metaphor for relationship.
Randal W Deese Dan Irving I’m asserting it is allowed. Paul proved it
Randal W Deese Was Abraham a man?
Dan Irving You failed to address my point.
Randal W Deese Was he called a spiritual Father for all believers? Yep
Randal W Deese The words are clear. You can ignore what Paul called Abraham… But it is clear as English can be
Dan Irving Do you venerate the virgin, as well?
Randal W Deese Dan Irving You don’t call her Blessed?
Dan Irving Thought so.
Randal W Deese Dan Irving Luke 1:48
Dan Irving I know the verse, but you misuse it.  When a woman tried to venerate Mary, Christ rebuked her for it.  But why should those who disobey Christ’s commandments care about His rebuke?
Randal W Deese Dan Irving Where?
Dan Irving Luke 11:27
Dan Irving “Blessed Mary” is code for Pagan idolatry in the guise of Christianity.
Randal W Deese Dan Irving prove it
Dan Irving prove what
Randal W Deese Dan Irving Idolatry
Dan Irving Idols are those things we put in place of God.
Randal W Deese Luke 11:27 includes all generations
Randal W Deese Dan Irving I dunt place Mary in front of God
Dan Irving That is why we are not to call men “father,” for that is God’s spiritual place.  That is why we don’t hail the “mother of God,” because she was just as fallen as you or I.
Randal W Deese Dan Irving Paul didn’t put Abraham in front of God when he called him father. Think deeper
Randal W Deese Dan Irving I dunt hail Mary
Dan Irving He did not address Abraham as Father.
Randal W Deese I’m not Roman
Dan Irving They virtually duplicate Luke 11:27https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZ78Q58UqOU
Dan Irving Will you join in Christ’s rebuke and renounce this?
Randal W Deese Dan Irving We don’t practice hail Mary. Get your facts straight… Lol
Randal W Deese The definition of address by the way doesn’t fit how you are using it…
Dan Irving Randal W Deese I don’t know what you practice as you seem vague regarding your affiliation.  You say you’re Catholic and you are introducing a Roman Catholic tradition into a classic Pentecostal forum, and then you demand that “I” get my facts (about you) straight?
Randal W Deese The Greek word for “call” includes to name, by nameto give a name toto receive the name of, receive as a nameto give some name to one, call his name… Thayer’s LexiconYes, Abraham was called Father…sorry
Randal W Deese Dan Irving I’m Catholic in the Classical definition. You need to study deeper.
Dan Irving So your avoiding the question.
Randal W Deese You have read too much of people’s rhetoric
Dan Irving That is deceptive.
Randal W Deese Dan Irving I’m not avoiding the question. You just don’t understand the word!
Randal W Deese I have answered it very clear. If I must explain it, it can’t be blamed on me… Smh
Dan Irving It means Universal.  Therefore, if this was your meaning when citing your affiliation, how was that not deceptive?
Randal W Deese I must go. There is no deception. I answered it clear. Every true Believer is part of the Catholic Church. How is that deception? Good grief
Randal W Deese Have you not read the universal Christian creeds?
Randal W Deese I’m a classic Catholic . I hold to all the doctrines of the unified Church… The One Church that was in earth until the Great Schism
Dan Irving When you are trying to force a theology, and provide a tongue-in-cheek response as to your affiliation, I consider that deptive.
Dan Irving deceptive
Dan Irving That’s exactly how Rome puts it.
Randal W Deese Dan Irving There is no tongue and cheek answer. It is clear
Randal W Deese Rome split from the one church
Randal W Deese This chart explains where I come from
Dan Irving So you consider the Reformation a greater departure from truth than the RCC?
Randal W Deese Yes
Randal W Deese You dunt even know how many Roman doctrines you have in your church..
Dan Irving When Luther affirmed the primacy of Faith as our Justification and the Reformers rejected the excesses of Rome, and the papacy, that was all error?
Randal W Deese Sola Fide is not taught in Scripture
Randal W Deese I went to Lutheran Seminary. I know their Doctrine well
Dan Irving I speak of the Reformers, not Lutheranism.
Randal W Deese You probably don’t know that the Lutherans tried to become Orthodox…
Randal W Deese You don’t accept Calvinism
Randal W Deese Well, I must go… Talk another time
Dan Irving Well, I must give you points for honesty.
Joseph D. Absher It’s weird. It does happen though.
Marc Jackson It happens only to people who dont know their Father in Heaven and they think they need other priestly fathers on earth too
Randal W Deese Different topic
Marc Jackson nope – all and the same. Lack of strong father figure produces the needs for priests, mentors and such
Randal W Deese Troy Day Paul knew that
Marc Jackson What struck me in reading the text was the hyperbolic nature of Jesus’prohibition. Even Jesus uses the term PATHR to refer to “mortals” at times. This combination of hyperbole and imperative causes me to lean towards yourimpression that these are titles which are not to be sought by religious leaders whowish to sit and speak with the authority of Moses, when they should be humble beforeGod
Randal W Deese Troy Day If you were right, then Paul’s statements are wrong
Marc Jackson I think JESUS was pretty right dont you?
Randal W Deese Troy Day Jesus was right. Your interpretation is not
Marc Jackson I havent interpreted anything Just quoted Jesus who literally said Call NOONE father – that’s all
Randal W Deese Troy Day Jesus said cut off your hand too under certain conditions… Smh
Marc Jackson So was Jesus wrong when he said that?
Randal W Deese Troy DayOnly if one takes it wrong
Marc Jackson So Randal W DeeseJESUS said Call no one father You say Call me fatherWho should we listen to?Your or JESUS?
Randal W Deese Paul called Abraham Father. Was he disobedient to Jesus???
Marc Jackson https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5o_J30x6E6s
Marc Jackson Whats the verdict 300 comments later? Dan Irving Joseph D. Absher
Joseph D. Absher It was hard to pray through after that mess. God had mercy about an hour later. Not one prayer for salvation last night on the streets. I ain’t blaming nobody but me. But I looked everywhere. A few taverns. A new dope house. A homeless campsite. Nothing. My conclusion? People want to be called father that’s their business. Please forgive me but I have other things to do.
Marc Jackson Joseph D. Absher I am wondering what Friar Rodney Burnap has to say about all this?
Joseph D. Absher He’s loving God trying to help people come to Christ. I think he’s to smart to get into it. He says wearing a robe helps him. People are more willing to open up. Let the brother work in peace. I’m for him. I heard a Pentecostal preacher once. You know back in the day. He said men wear a collar to get the respect from men that they don’t get from God. Maybe you can add funny hats and knotted up shawls. If a person has all them degrees and can blow a shofar they got my respect but that don’t make them holy. The blood of Jesus does that.
Marc Jackson Well Joseph D. Absher Just wondering what Friar Rodney Burnap may think about this whole father thing and all That’s all!
Joseph D. Absher If we talk we talk about souls. He doesn’t get into a lot of other stuff. I have to respect him for that
Marc Jackson oh dont worry Friar Rodney is coming around to give us his c2 on this topic too 🙂
Joseph D. Absher Oh boy. Thank God for edit
Marc Jackson Friar Rodney Burnap  Do you call your priest a father ?
Joseph D. Absher He ain’t got no priest…
Marc Jackson Dont have a priest. Only call God my Father
Randal W Deese Did Paul sin then?
Scotty Searan Randal W Deese  Paul may never had heard Jesus say that, because he did not preach from Matthew, Mark, Luke & John.  Paul preach from the Old Testament and convince people through the writings of the old Testament.Now if he had heard Jesus say that, it is possible he could have sinned, but we don’t know that.  He was teaching from the way that Jews and the Old Testament taught about father.But Jesus Christ did change that with his statement.
Randal W Deese Scotty Searan Apostle Paul taught  the very words of Christ…He would not have disobeyed the command of Christ. Therefore, that gives us one strong hermeneutic that says clearly that most people today miss understand the words of Jesus in Matthew 23
Scotty Searan Randal W Deese Is there any place in Paul’s ministry, that’s shows Paul quoting something that Jesus said, besides on the road to Damascus at His conversion.Paul even call people masters, when Jesus said not to it.Jesus was trying to get the Jews and farther along since we are grafted into the Israelites to stop calling Abraham and their ancestors father and masters.  I take his teachings literally.  Paul may not have had time to hear all Jesus taught and I don’t believe that he did since the New Testament was being written as he was mustering.  That is hermeneutic that is being missed.  Jesus was giving his final sermons and clamping down hard on the Jewish traditions that was wrong and sinful.  Jesus Christ was doing the role of an evangelist, skin their hide and let the disciples (pastors) heal them up.
Randal W Deese Scotty Searan To think that Scripture contradicts Scripture is very absurd.
Scotty Searan Scripture does not contradict scripture, but Paul cannot be held accountable for something he did not know or the Holy Ghost had not shown him.But we are not to take away from what the scripture says either and we know definitely what Jesus said.
Joseph D. Absher “In my Father’s house are many mansions…” – John 14:2…just saying
Marc Jackson good point on paul Scotty Searan  Paul never demanded no one to call him father
Randal W Deese He did encourage all recognize him as their father – hence, a form of encouraging people to call him father. The Greek word for “call” easily includes the idea.
Marc Jackson Verse where Paul said Call me father pls?I remember a verse that says: Only Luke is with mebut Luke I am your father is from another movie 🙂
Randal W Deese Troy Day You need to think three D… your view would exclude the doctrine of the Trinity. Paul considered Himself a spiritual father. You cannot get around that…. and since Paul called Abraham a spiritual Father AFTER the words of Christ, we know that your teaching is misguided at best, and a hermeneutical blunder at worst. Calling someone Father is to consider one father… think deeper… depth is important in theology
Randal W Deese Troy Day He didn’t have to.. the ancient believers knew what he meant…
Marc Jackson How about that Verse from the Bible where Paul said Call me father pls?
Randal W Deese He doesn’t have to… think?
Marc Jackson If it is not in the Bible your teaching is not Biblical
Randal W Deese The entire Hebrew and Ancient world knew what Paul meant by considering himself their spiritual father. Embracing him as their father was “calling” him father… even if they never ever said “my father.” Obviously you miss the point of “calling” someone anything!
Marc Jackson So simple to the mind – Not in the Bible therefore not biblical But wait there is more – This is what IS in the Bible – Jesus Himself imperatively commanded : Call no one a farther for one is your Father in Heaven Therefore the Biblical teaching is …Call no one a farther for one is your Father in Heaven
Randal W Deese …and no matter what…. Paul called Abraham FATHER… He obviously didn’t believe the passage like you and your novelity
Randal W Deese Either way, you ignore the historical context of the Hebrew and Ancient Christians… and totally try to erase Paul calling someone FATHER… you are arguing in circles… was Paul lying when he called Abraham Father? NO! It is clear as day!
Marc Jackson What Paul does not do in these passages is begin using “father” as a formal religious title. Notice how Paul introduces himself in his letters. He normally refers to himself as a “servant” (as in Philippians 1:1) or- especially when writing responses to churches in which his authority was being questioned to some degree- he refers to Christ’s calling upon his life, establishing his apostleship. What Paul does not do in his letters is ever refer to himself as “Father Paul.”
Randal W Deese Father is a spiritual term that has been used since the Old Covenant, and Paul used it too. A true servant leader accepts if he is a spiritual father… a good father is a true servant
Joseph D. Absher Did the Apostles call Jesus father in the Greek? Because I don’t see it in KJV Bible. But you will find beaucoup verses where Jesus calls God his Father and teaches his disciples to pray “our Father” if you want to kiss another man’s ring you got bigger problems than not knowing who your father is.
Randal W Deese Spiritual fatherhood was always a Biblical concept…
Marc Jackson Joseph D. Absher Even if Jesus did He said it was OK to call God that. Marry called him Rabbi after the Resurrection. He said calling Him God – that was OK. The command was was no to call one father   as a formal religious titleEven Paul does not in any passages begin using “father” as a formal religious title. Notice how Paul introduces himself in his letters. He normally refers to himself as a “servant” (as in Philippians 1:1) or- especially when writing responses to churches in which his authority was being questioned to some degree- he refers to Christ’s calling upon his life, establishing his apostleship. What Paul does not do in his letters is ever refer to himself as “Father Paul.”
Randal W Deese No. It was a specific title within the Sanhedrin that Jesus was referring to… He was not addressing the general title used as a spiritual honor of father. We know this because Paul would have violated Christ’s command by CALLING Abraham Father. Hermeneutics 101: Scripture cannot contradict Scripture.
Joseph D. Absher Years ago I had these whole types of arguments with Christian preachers wanting to be Batman and Superman. They won’t budge an inch. They love the world. They have their ungodly, unholy, unmanly idols. Their statues, little bobbleheads and jerseys and posters and law of attraction dream boards. It’s easier to work men that have never heard the gospel than preachers that want the respect of men and a god in their own image.
Marc Jackson Christian preachers wanting to be Batman and Superman 🙂 #DoTell
Joseph D. Absher I guess “strangers and pilgrims” is to old timey for them…
Marc Jackson Wondering if priests wear capes to be like Batman and Superman I wanna be more like Jesus Christopher Noel Boggess
Joseph D. Absher Some of them got black velvet robes and gold braid. Sorry if I’m not to nice about some of this stuff. My dad used to say “some people are educated past their intelligence” I never had that problem lol
Dan Irving It’s vital we stand against such nonsense.  We follow a long history of darkness as to the gospel owing much to vain traditions of Popery.  It appears many who should know better are finding the rituals and flourishes of dead religion attractive.  They need rebuke.
Randal W Deese Many Penetecostals hold lots of man made doctrines… Just different ones
Marc Jackson Dan I agree IMO sacraments, creeds, saints and saints stories, lectionaries, ascetics,  rituals, lent, ash have no place in Pentecostalism – just saying
Randal W Deese Troy Day You don’t think too deep about these things do you? What a knee-jerk reaction… Tell me which one of these are Doctrines? Smh
Marc Jackson Hey Randal W Deese I had every intention to talk to you about the Church Fathers on the eternal sonship of Christ or Athanasian Trinity but I see you did not respond to any of them. Still not sure of your interest in low key threads
Randal W Deese Troy Day I’m dealing with low hanging fruit because I don’t have my computer with me with all of my studies I have done on the deeper subjects… But, I do believe in the I embrace the Eternal Sonship of Jesus
Marc Jackson Understood. I support what Dan Irving said above
Randal W Deese Troy Day Well good thing that I’m not Roman Catholic then, right? LOL
Randal W Deese Troy Day Lolsacraments-You don’t believe in sacraments?creeds-you don’t believe in doctrinal statements?saints and saints stories-you don’t think there should be Christians giving testimonies in books today?lectionaries-You don’t follow order of service at church?ascetics-you don’t believe people should Have the freedom to dedicate their life to God in extraordinary ways?rituals-your church doesn’t have a specific ritual that his bottle almost every Sunday exact same day and time?lent-you don’t call your church to special days of fasting and prayer?ash-you don’t celebrate Easter Sunday of the church calendar?have no place in Pentecostalism-Well let me add a couple more things the Pentecostals do that or more traditional and man-made1. Using hymnals2. Using projectors3. Pews or any seating4. Baby dedications5. Forbidding wine in communion6. Bulletins7. Every body laying hands on a sick person instead of what the Bible says, the elders or to lay their hands on the sick person.8. Calling any man a pastor9. Having a revival meetingI think I wrote up 30 different traditions in the average Penecostal church… But I don’t know where my list is
Marc Jackson Randal W Deese it appears you have NEVER been in a Pentecostal church 🙂 In which of your sacramental or traditional categories would you list snake handling?  http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/?s=snake
Marc Jackson Randal W Deese we were wondering earlier what color is your liturgical vestment? And why is there no picture of you wearing it with a proper skufia ?
Randal W Deese Because we our seriously considering using Western Rites for all services
Marc Jackson I gathered that much from the picture on your website showing Catholic priest ordination in Switzerland. So then, an ex-Lutheran chaplain (saw many of these in my army days Joseph) who is turning back to Catholic rites and somewhere down the line experiences glassolalia – not really Pentecostal more of a modern day Charismatism. So you are not really Eastern Orthodox are you? Randal W Deese
Randal W Deese Troy Day Switzerland? Haha…goofy
Randal W Deese Troy DayYou have a lot to learn.There are a few Western Rite Orthodox FB groups you can view… I don’t have time for silly games…
Marc Jackson Seems like you are not able to respond under the serious theological discussions either but so it says on the picture on your website – title reads “Priesterweihe in Schwyz_2”
Joseph D. Absher Yes I had a Lutheran chaplain. I tried to talk him about the gospel. He said I was dogmatic. I think it must be bad? Kinda like when they call you gringo. You learn to accept it. So I’m the gringo predicador! and the dogmatic private.
Randal W Deese Troy Day You change the subject… It was about Sonship and how it came from the universal church… If you want to start another post… I will discuss anything… But you’re just being silly
Randal W Deese I’m using your rules and you don’t like it… Ha ha ha ha

5 Comments

  • Reply June 16, 2019

    Varnel Watson

    Philip Williams How can JESUS say that ONE is our father while NOT speaking of Himself and still be oneness?

  • Reply April 8, 2020

    Joe Absher

    How is Dan Irving these days . haven’t heard from him in a long time

  • Reply April 8, 2020

    Varnel Watson

    + Phil W. Link Ira Junk John Wayne #rememberTHEfallen

    • Reply April 9, 2020

      Joe Absher

      Yes it is good to remember and to listen .

    • Reply April 9, 2020

      Varnel Watson

      Joe Absher be reminded and not anxious indeed

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