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A recent post-Tribulation book by a guy who did some mission work in Indonesia or the close by area, led to some question as of HOW exactly can a left behind church survive the Tribulation? His “book” mimicked the Left Behind series, but took the opposite approach looking into the life of believers (not the word believers – not churches).
It is most certain THAT some churches in the WORLD today go through tribulation. Many are persecuted, executed and martyred for the faith. But is this The Tribulation of the Bible?
So lets take the post-Trib theory a step further and examine HOW would a church operated during the Tribulation and more specifically an evangelical church in America.
(1) for starters: ONLY the ones who take the mark of the Beast (whoever that may be) will not be able to buy or sell. Anything! Food, gas, electricity, water – absolutely nothing.
(2) The pastors will NOT be able to receive salaries, insurance or anything included in their package. Remember, if the church cannot buy or sale, neither can the pastor receive a salary. And even if a salary is given, what would the pastor spend it on without the mark of the beast?
(3) Tithing system – those are most usually set up with a paper check or some sort of electronic banking like debiting or crediting. With the mark of the beast, the church will NOT be able to receive those moneys and even if it does, it cannot operate with them to buy or sell anything.
(4) What about church buildings – without the mark of the beast they will not be able to purchase any service – electricity, lights, internet, gas for church vans, insurance, special events, catering, food – no communion elements. Nothing at all. With no professional services available, a church building may last a few months, but will fall apart soon before the Tribulation is over… Just think about it
(5) Any other church related logistics or operations that depend on the purchase of gasoline and transportation. They way current church infrastructure in America is set up, how many would actually take the time to walk miles and miles to a church?
OK, so the hiding in the rocks scenario, in which Jesus is most obviously speaking to the Jews. They knew how to carve hideaway caves in the lime rock of the desolated land and hide whole villages from the Romans. Let’s say my Indonesian related friend lives in mid-Georgia area near Atlanta. Which rocky area can he run into and hide his family, especially if with many kids? How long would be able to survive, having lived the city life and not knowing how to skin even a squirrel? And most importantly, what kind of church would that be that survives the Tribulation and comes into the Havens? Zero to none is perhaps the best answer for the post-trib scenario.
Perhaps for this reason a question is asked in the Revelations about Who are those coming from the Tribulation? If those are NOT Israel, the question is asked in the Holy Book in the most surprising matter. Both the asker and the answerer are quire surprised that ANYone has been able to pass through the Tribulation without taking the Mark of the Beast. The surprise in the text comes from only one reasonable explanation – the church is already in the Heavens, saved from any Tribulation and celebrating with the Lamb of God. The ones coming from the Tribulation are the exception to this rule. They are the Left Behind…
Guest;
Rico Hero Alan Smith A.J. Bible OK, so the hiding in the rocks scenario, in which Jesus is most obviously speaking to the Jews. They knew how to carve hideaway caves in the lime rock of the desolated land and hide whole villages from the Romans. Let’s say my Indonesian related friend lives in mid-Georgia area near Atlanta. Which rocky area can he run into and hide his family, especially if with many kids? How long would be able to survive, having lived the city life and not knowing how to skin even a squirrel? And most importantly, what kind of church would that be that survives the Tribulation and comes into the Havens? Zero to none is perhaps the best answer for the post-trib scenario. Ricky Grimsley
Guest;
Perhaps for this reason a question is asked in the Revelations about Who are those coming from the Tribulation? If those are NOT Israel, the question is asked in the Holy Book in the most surprising matter. Both the asker and the answerer are quire surprised that ANYone has been able to pass through the Tribulation without taking the Mark of the Beast. The surprise in the text comes from only one reasonable explanation – the church is already in the Heavens, saved from any Tribulation and celebrating with the Lamb of God. The ones coming from the Tribulation are the exception to this rule. They are the Left Behind…
Guest;
Member when Christian groups were raising
money to send to Israel to buy food for those who would hide in Petra during the tribulation? Who got that money?
Guest;
ISRAEL – yes! American church – hardly possible !
Guest;
Troy, I clicked on the above link re: how can a left behind church survive the Tribulation, that leads to your page and watched the video you have linked: “Has the tribulation actually begun Part 1 ” by Perry Stone Two things stood out in his video 1) when he said the martyrs go to a special paradise and rule with Christ. Perry does not believe that there is a special paradise for martyrs or does he? 2) that the Antichrist will be a Muslim. I do not think so because the Antichrist turns over the Temple Mount to the Jews. Anyways, I will assume/hope in Part 2 of “has the tribulation actually begun” Perry says that no the tribulation has not actually begun.
Guest;
Not sure if this is about me or not. I never wrote that book bit thought it would be a cool idea. Better at least to have a Biblically feasible book than the left behind series.
Guest;
Also those of all nations come out of the great tribulation according to Revelation 7, not just Israel.
The difficulty of surviving the tribulation is not a logical argument for the pretrib rapture. It is an emotional one. It is the same reason pretrib is popular. Many Christians do not want to have to suffer of believe that they will have to.
God is able to multiply food and Christians may need to learn to share again as in the book of Acts.
Guest;
not everything in this worlds is about you
the post clearly shows there cant be no real church in the Tribulation
Rico Hero apart from the video (I dont believe in a Muslim antiChrist either but Ricky Grimsley may believe it ) a few questions
(1) for starters: ONLY the ones who take the mark of the Beast (whoever that may be) will not be able to buy or sell. Anything! Food, gas, electricity, water – absolutely nothing.
(2) The pastors will NOT be able to receive salaries, insurance or anything included in their package. Remember, if the church cannot buy or sale, neither can the pastor receive a salary. And even if a salary is given, what would the pastor spend it on without the mark of the beast?
(3) Tithing system – those are most usually set up with a paper check or some sort of electronic banking like debiting or crediting. With the mark of the beast, the church will NOT be able to receive those moneys and even if it does, it cannot operate with them to buy or sell anything.
(4) What about church buildings – without the mark of the beast they will not be able to purchase any service – electricity, lights, internet, gas for church vans, insurance, special events, catering, food – no communion elements. Nothing at all. With no professional services available, a church building may last a few months, but will fall apart soon before the Tribulation is over… Just think about it
(5) Any other church related logistics or operations that depend on the purchase of gasoline and transportation. They way current church infrastructure in America is set up, how many would actually take the time to walk miles and miles to a church?
Guest;
Rico Hero apart from the video (I dont believe in a Muslim antiChrist either but Ricky Grimsley may believe it ) a few questions
(1) for starters: ONLY the ones who take the mark of the Beast (whoever that may be) will not be able to buy or sell. Anything! Food, gas, electricity, water – absolutely nothing.
(2) The pastors will NOT be able to receive salaries, insurance or anything included in their package. Remember, if the church cannot buy or sale, neither can the pastor receive a salary. And even if a salary is given, what would the pastor spend it on without the mark of the beast?
(3) Tithing system – those are most usually set up with a paper check or some sort of electronic banking like debiting or crediting. With the mark of the beast, the church will NOT be able to receive those moneys and even if it does, it cannot operate with them to buy or sell anything.
(4) What about church buildings – without the mark of the beast they will not be able to purchase any service – electricity, lights, internet, gas for church vans, insurance, special events, catering, food – no communion elements. Nothing at all. With no professional services available, a church building may last a few months, but will fall apart soon before the Tribulation is over… Just think about it
(5) Any other church related logistics or operations that depend on the purchase of gasoline and transportation. They way current church infrastructure in America is set up, how many would actually take the time to walk miles and miles to a church?
Guest;
Link Hudson Sure there could be many churches under the Tribulation perhaps even your GBI but they will have to accept the mark of the beast in order to buy or sell
Guest;
Gary Micheal Epping Sorry I am just now seeing this question of yours:
Why would they need to buy and sell with those people groups that have accepted the mark?
They would need to accept the mark in order to buy or sell [period]
How else would they survive for 7 years without buying or selling?
Guest;
We may have to learn to farm, hunt, and share.
Guest;
Could you point to some churches in your area or organization that are preparing in such way for the Tribulation? Again, what seeds would you use to farm? In todays America you have to buy seeds from the government every year. They are good only for one crop. They do not produce seeds for the next year – just 1 harvest So how would you farm for 7 long years?
Guest;
Ricky Grimsley are you too planing to hunt and crop for 7 years? me and Rico Hero be then by then 🙂
Guest;
Rico Hero A.J. Bible you can call this “special” revelation if you will but more and more I read Link Hudson and Gary Micheal Epping whom I enjoy greatly, I am starting to be persuaded they MAY be the 2 witnesses mentioned in Revelation. Their strong conviction of surviving through the Tribulation and leading many to Christ laves NO doubt of the mission served. We wish them all the best and will make many prayers before the Throne on their behalf during the later 3.5 years https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0NROedyVP8
Guest;
the WHO https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4APsUYFDQ7o
Guest;
Rico Hero seems like with all the general talk Link Hudson has truly failed to show a single place the word CHURCH is used as being on earth between Rev ch. 4 and ch 19
Guest;
I notice that Troy Day has not been able to produce any evidence for the church not being on earth between Revelation 4 and 19. I can show I Thessalonians 1, in which Christ returns and gives the church rest.
I can also show from I Thessalonians 4 that the church is raptured at the parousia. II Thessalonians 2:8 shows that the man of sin is destroyed at the brightness of the parousia. Of course, I have never seen Troy actually write out a response to these passages or try to reconcile them.
Guest;
There will not be a left behind church.
The “Church” which is the Body of Christ will be with Him.
Guest;
There you go Terry Wiles finally sums it up Now he needs to tell us WHO are the great multitude coming from the Tribulation and we will be done They cannot be the Church because they are dead – did not love their lives – they are not reptured nor translated into glory
Then ol Lincoln will need to give us his full eschatological plan – like what follows after what. So far we only know he is a post-tribber of some sort but what follows after even he dont know
one will be hunting to survive the Tribulation
Link will be plowing with his finger nails perhaps
What about Gerardo de Dominicis who cant neither hunt nor crop, but can fish only if there is a store to get bate from How are city boys like that going to survive the Tribulation when they cant buy the whole store at a 3 inch snow warning One answer only – they will have to take the mark of the beast Just think of the families with many children and you get the answer
Guest;
I am not commenting about any particular person, but about many theologians in general. Why is it that so often a learned person with academic credentials puts his theological views above the Bible, and refuses to ever go back and reconsider that his position is incorrect, or that another opposing position in fact has merit? It never ceases to amaze me how narrow minded and fixated academics can become. Sometimes in order to break through and draw closer to God’s eternal truth, we must set what we presently know and believe aside, and begin afresh with an openness to follow where the Spirit leads as we read the Bible.
Guest;
Gary Micheal you should not be talking about a person or a theologian BUT about their theology. If we are to talk about a person per se we can very well say like Terry Wiles farewell have fun during the Tribulation We will be back shortly after the Marriage of the Lamb in heaven [over]
Guest;
If pre trib rapture is true (I don’t think so) then there won’t be a “left behind” church. If we are born again we are justified by Christ and we won’t remain on earth at the “rapture”. Every single christian has received the Holy Spirit as a warranty of redemption. To think that Christians will be left behind has no grounds.
RichardAnna Boyce
it is only unbelievers who are left behind for the Tribulation; and all members of Synagogues will survive the Tribulation as co-heirs with Christ in the Millennium.
Varnel Watson
I like this type of comments – very constructive I have a response to post in just a little while to continue the conversation
Varnel Watson
a few questions
(1) for starters: ONLY the ones who take the mark of the Beast (whoever that may be) will not be able to buy or sell. Anything! Food, gas, electricity, water – absolutely nothing.
(2) The pastors will NOT be able to receive salaries, insurance or anything included in their package. Remember, if the church cannot buy or sale, neither can the pastor receive a salary. And even if a salary is given, what would the pastor spend it on without the mark of the beast?
(3) Tithing system – those are most usually set up with a paper check or some sort of electronic banking like debiting or crediting. With the mark of the beast, the church will NOT be able to receive those moneys and even if it does, it cannot operate with them to buy or sell anything.
(4) What about church buildings – without the mark of the beast they will not be able to purchase any service – electricity, lights, internet, gas for church vans, insurance, special events, catering, food – no communion elements. Nothing at all. With no professional services available, a church building may last a few months, but will fall apart soon before the Tribulation is over… Just think about it
(5) Any other church related logistics or operations that depend on the purchase of gasoline and transportation. They way current church infrastructure in America is set up, how many would actually take the time to walk miles and miles to a church?
Ed Brewer
2 Thess 2:11
Varnel Watson
says none will survive
RichardAnna Boyce
The church will survive if its left behind members support Israel in their hour of need….. “RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!”
Though the entire Tribulation period will be arduous for the world,
the persecution of Jewish followers of Christ will not commence until the occurrence of the abomination of desolation, revealed by Jesus in Matt 24:15ff.
This event will occur when the man of sin (the beast of Revelation) will enter the rebuilt temple of God to be worshipped as god by the world at large.33
Satan will empower this man to “make war” against Jewish believers in Christ
and to overcome them.34
Upon abominating the temple, this “man of sin” will issue the command for his army to desolate Jewish believers in Christ35—
that is, to hunt them down to arrest or kill them.
In order for Jewish followers of Christ to survive, they will need to flee immediately upon the occurrence of the abomination of desolation36;
they will not even be afforded the time to grab anything to take with them—
no possessions, money, extra clothing, etc.; nor will they be able to buy or sell anything since they will not receive the mark of the beast.37
VIII. THE NEEDS OF “THE LEAST OF THESE MY BRETHREN”
As a result, these Jewish disciples will need others to meet their basic needs throughout the Great Tribulation.
These necessities are addressed in Matt 25:35-36 in which Jesus declares His brethren will be hungry, thirsty, strangers, and in need of clothing.
In addition, some will require medical attention, while others, captured by troops sent out by Satan’s world ruler,38 will need people to attend to their necessities in prison. They will be in desperate need of help!
IX. THE REWARD FOR HELPING JESUS’ BRETHREN
However, the risk for helping these followers of Jesus will be enormous!
Because the beast of Revelation will seek to carry out Satan’s desire to wipe out God’s chosen people, particularly those who faithfully follow Christ,39
giving aid to any of these brethren will be tantamount to risking one’s life.
For the willingness of Gentile believers to take that kind of risk for Christ’s brethren, Jesus will greatly reward their obedience by granting them the privilege of inheriting the kingdom (ruling with Christ in God’s kingdom).40
Varnel Watson
where is the church going to run? there are not enough caves in the world – just enough for Israel
RichardAnna Boyce
Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains; let him who is on the housetop not go down to get the things out that are in his house; and let him who is in the field not turn back to get his cloak. But woe to those who are with child and to those who nurse babes in those days! But pray that your flight may not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath;—Matthew 24:16-20. it is for believing Jews in Jerusalem.
Varnel Watson
OK, so the hiding in the rocks scenario, in which Jesus is most obviously speaking to the Jews. They knew how to carve hideaway caves in the lime rock of the desolated land and hide whole villages from the Romans. Let’s say my Indonesian related friend lives in mid-Georgia area near Atlanta. Which rocky area can he run into and hide his family, especially if with many kids? How long would be able to survive, having lived the city life and not knowing how to skin even a squirrel? And most importantly, what kind of church would that be that survives the Tribulation and comes into the Havens? Zero to none is perhaps the best answer for the post-trib scenario.
Marco Darko
whats a left behind church
Daniel Day II
It will be rough
Varnel Watson
impossible indeed
Link Hudson
I do not agree with this theory that there are those that are in Christ that He won’t resurrect or rapture. I Corinthians 15 says in Christ shall all be made alive, Christ the firstfruits, and afterward they that are His at His coming.
We should get our beliefs from scripture not cheesy movies.
Varnel Watson
1 Corinthians 15 does not disprove pre-Trib rapture but this is hardly the question here so dont get side tracked again The OP question is HOW a left behind church will survive? 1 Cor 15?
Link Hudson
The assumption is that there will be churches left behind. What kind of churches? Civic assemblies, yeah probably. But the church of Jesus Christ? What is your basis for saying that some will be left behind?
Varnel Watson
There is no theory OR assumption in this OP
OP is a QUESTION asked based on the FALSE theory and the assumption of post-Trib rapture BTW do you believe pre-Trib rapture is HERESY ?
Link Hudson
Troy Day I don’t throw the word ‘heresy’ around. Some teachings can divide and damage the faith of others. Maybe pre-trib will fall into that category if it derails the faith of some who take the mark fo the beast because Christians did not disappear sending airplanes crashing to the ground.
I just don’t see any solid Biblical evidence for pre-trib. I see a lot of pretribbers, trying to stretch pre-trib arguments out of a few verses and going to great lengths to fit passages that do not really fit pre-trib (like II Thessalonians 2) into a pre-trib paradigm. They think that by telling their pre-trib scenario, throwing verses from that passage into their story, they’ve proven their case– like one of the Perry Stone videos you referred me to as if that proved pre-trib.
The ‘one taken and the other left’ passage is ‘after the tribulation’ in Matthew 24. Revelation does not show a pre-trib rapture in the sequence of events before telling about the difficulties the saints go through. In II Thessalonians 1, the church is present when Jesus comes back, executing vengence on them that know not God, in that day. We should keep this in mind when reading about the things that must precede that day in chapter 2. A natural reading of I Thessalonians 4 puts the rapture at the parousia, not seven years before. Treating the parousia as a 7 year event doesn’t make much sense if Jesus is still in heaven at that time.
I’m not seeing scripture to justify going to such great lengths to interpret Revelation, II Thessalonians 2, or Matthew 24 to fit with pre-trib. There neds to be some scripture that actually teaches pre-trib to justify this. That is what I have asked for. I was raised believing pretrib and let it go because I could not find it in scripture and it does nto fit with what I read.
Setting aside specific eschatologies for a minute, do you have any scripture that shows that some of the church, some of the saints, will be ‘left behind’? Does that scenario of two grinding at the mill say both are church people?
Varnel Watson
I asked this question and had a great conversation with Gary Micheal Epping about it back in the day I dont have problem with people staying and hiding in caves if so they wish I for one am not planning to be here
Varnel Watson
I have long asked this Daniel J Hesse Gary Micheal Epping
walmart is NOT taking online orders
is NOT delivering to home
is NOT doing curb pickup no more
and you can get only 2 of each like NOAH
yes – you can only get 2 eggs
How can a church that cannot survive coronavirus survive the Tribulation ? http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/preventing-covid-19-in-faith-based-communities/
Gary Micheal Epping
And I have long said this, the Lord will provide and take care of his won during this time of Tribulation. The only ones that have to worry are the non believers.
Daniel J Hesse
Absolutely!
Jireh D Hormann
Daniel J Hesse oh good, so we can live in sin, and then fix everything during the trib and still go to heaven. That makes sense
Varnel Watson
Jireh D Hormann Daniel J Hesse may have learned how to live without toilet paper
Gary Micheal Epping
Jireh D Hormann We all have lived in sin before finding Jesus Christ, whether is is before or during the Tribulation.
Jireh D Hormann
Gary Micheal Epping Sorry brother. The Bible is very clear on this. His church, His Bride, will NOT be here for the trib. If you are, sorry, read Matthew 25:1-13, you will hear the words, “Assuredly I say to you, I do not know you!”
Varnel Watson
Jireh D Hormann I will prepare a LIST of things that the BIBLE tells us the antiChrist will do exactly like in this current situation in the world we live in No doubt about it Wouldnt the antiChrist do it exactly like this Just think about it This is A STRESS TEST for the church today and the church is NOT ready
Jireh D Hormann
Troy Day I have studied Eschatology very deeply and I know what the word of God says. In the last days, yes, there will be trials, persecution, hard times, and everything listed in Matthew 24:1-8. However, the tribulation has two purposes, to restore the remnants of Israel, and to pour out the wrath of God. God wants His bride beautiful and ready. Not beat up and scared. Not one drop of rain fell until Noah was on the Ark. The angels could NOT destroy Sodom and Gomorrah until Lot left the city. Gods wrath does not fall on HIS children.
Gary Micheal Epping
If the bible is clear on this, then give me scripture that DIRECTLY says that the church is taken out early. For you to say that the Lord does not know me are fighting words. I love the Lord with all my heart, and salvation is not based on whether one believes in a pretrib rapture or not. You have been listening to Troy Day too long, as he is guilty of spreading that lie.
Varnel Watson
Gary Micheal Epping I already gave you that verse
Rev 3:10 speaks very clearly to THE CHURCH
BTW Gary this is the second time in 24hrs you are calling me a liar I do not engage in name calling as a rule on the internet BUT it appears you are doing this from your own guilt Now then if youd like to discuss theology this is fine but name calling is not acceptable especially when I’ve quoted your own words So pls dont be a Guilty Gary and just discuss theology
Varnel Watson
Gary Micheal Epping sure looks like your words here doesnt it? https://www.facebook.com/groups/pentecostaltheologygroup/permalink/1927693893952283/
Gary Micheal Epping
We have already settled this They are your words not mine.
Varnel Watson
NO is the simple answer Gary Micheal Epping and you knows it Few months ago you were saying self-contained self survival HOW do you see this happening right here and right now?
Gary Micheal Epping
No is a simple minded answer, if you think that the Lord will not protect and take care of his own during the Tribulation. I never said anything about ‘self contained or self survival.’ That is a lie. I did say christians would be God protected. Those false statements are your interjections. The Lord fed and maintain the Israelites for 40 years, so why would you say He would not take care of his own during the Tribulation? Why are you even talking about the Tribulation in regard to the present crisis, because there is no indication as of yet that this is it. All you are doing is instilling fear in many peoples hearts.
Varnel Watson
Gary Micheal Epping Daniel J Hesse Ricky Grimsley and the rest of the non-pre-tribbers Would you pls stop for a MOMENT and listen to yourself
Yall cant survive a little cold virus when WalMart still shows some signs of life BUT YOU WILL survive the Great Tribulation WHEN you cant buy OR sell
Lets see for a moment – how many ounces of meat, bread or water have you produced by yourself in the last week That’s your production value during the Tribulation
IF you think this is the Tribulation OR that you are ready Think again Yall aint seen nothing yet And yes the Tribulation is a punishment AND sorrow foe the church that has been LEFT BEHIND
Varnel Watson
Gary Micheal Epping FURTHERMORE pls review your comments from a similar discussion in 2018 here And pls point to me HOW what you said there is NOT
self contained or self survival.’
few quotes from you
We may have to learn to farm, hunt, and share.
to which I responded
Could you point to some churches in your area or organization that are preparing in such way for the Tribulation? Again, what seeds would you use to farm? In todays America you have to buy seeds from the government every year. They are good only for one crop. They do not produce seeds for the next year – just 1 harvest So how would you farm for 7 long years?
Then you said
Gary Micheal Epping Troy Day Why would they need to buy and sell with those people groups that have accepted the mark? God will give them a place of protection to stay across the world (Bozrahs), as well as food. There may be trade within the Bozrah
and so on and so on Pls explain to me HOW your imaginary land of Bozrah is NOT self contained or self survival.’
Come on man – you call me openly a liar for citing back you your own words Then what does this make you? Come on
https://www.facebook.com/groups/pentecostaltheologygroup/permalink/1927693893952283/
Gary Micheal Epping
Troy Day You just like to argue and not listen. Christians during the Tribulation are not self contained but God contained, and it is not self survival but survival through God’s protection. You sure have a thick head and never listen to anybody but yourself.
Ricky Grimsley
Troy Day pretrib is still nonsense 2 Thessalonians chapter 2
Varnel Watson
Ricky Grimsley So let me see about that You agree with with Gary Micheal Epping that the church will be brought to some imaginary land called whatever where God will feed them mannah during part of OR the whole Tribulation NOW I would like to see some Scripture speaking of any of that nonsense please and I thank you in advance for that
Varnel Watson
Gary Micheal Epping I like to discuss and to listen BOTH but I do not like to use name calling I simply quoted your OWN words – just own them It is OK to be right or wrong about theology It is not OK to call people liars when they quote your own words Many churches doing that will be simply left behind in the rapture
Varnel Watson
Gary Micheal Epping So are you saying what I copy pasted from your comments and summed it up with the term self-contained which is basically what ti is as you are speaking of a self-contained land/island with seeds for harvest and so on … Are you saying and I did not copy paste from your own comments – I mean its pretty obvious wouldnt you agree? And please point to me where I called you any names since you are pushing the discussion in such direction? I am simply addressing your theological concerns and what I believe to be your own comments with your name avatar and so on Did you not post them yourself – what seems to be the issue here? https://www.facebook.com/groups/pentecostaltheologygroup/permalink/1927693893952283/
Gary Micheal Epping
Now you are telling the truth. You summed up what I said and called it self sufficient and self survival. These are YOUR WORDS not mine. I do not believe in self sufficiency or self survival, but sufficiency and survival through God’s protection. So please stop say that I used those terms, as they are your terms.
Varnel Watson
I am always telling the truth That’s one thing we all can be certain
Varnel Watson
Neil Steven Lawrence has sent us the following
How can the believers survive during the great tribulation?
Head chopping is required.
Rev. 20:4
I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been BEHEADED because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands……”
The Muslims are coming!
Varnel Watson
https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/18/us/earthquake-salt-lake-temple-moroni/index.html
Nikki Sheppick
Apparently so, some do, according to Jesus: https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Matthew-Chapter-24/#38 and then: Final/Last/7th Trump –
1 Corinthians 15:51-52 – Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not …. all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at …. the …. last …. trumpet; for …. the trumpet …. will sound, and the dead …. will be raised (the resurrection) …. imperishable, and we will be changed.
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 – For the Lord Himself …. will descend …. from Heaven with a shout, with …. the voice of the archangel …. and with …. the trumpet of God, and …. the dead …. in Christ …. will rise …. first. Then we who are …. alive and remain (the remnant) …. will be caught up together …. with them …. in the clouds …. to meet the Lord …. in the air, and …. so we shall …. always be …. with …. the Lord.
Revelation 11:15-19 – Then the seventh angel …. sounded; and there were loud voices …. in Heaven, saying,“The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever.” And the twenty-four elders, who sit on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, saying,“We give You thanks, O Lord God, the Almighty, who are and who were, because You have taken Your great power and have begun to reign. And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath …. came, and the time came for the dead …. to be judged, and the time to reward …. Your bond-servants the prophets and the saints …. and those who fear Your name, the small and the great, and …. to destroy those …. who destroy the earth.” And the Temple of God …. which is in Heaven …. was opened; and the ark of His covenant …. appeared in …. His temple, and there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder and an earthquake and a great hailstorm.”
Matthew 24:31 – And he …. will send out his angels …. with a loud trumpet call, and they …. will gather …. his elect …. from …. the four winds, from …. one end of Heaven to the other.
https://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/15-52.htm
https://www.openbible.info/topics/the_last_trump
https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/search.php?q=TRUMP&bsec=N
Jim Maxwell
Surviving the tribulation isnt the point…. surviving eternity is
Michael B Reimann
There is no left behind church.
At the moment of the rapture there are no believers on earth for a split second.
Believers after the rapture will not be indwelt by the Holey Spirit and will have to believe on simple faith.
There is a pre rapture church and a post rapture church but not a left behind church.
Nikki Sheppick
What then is your review of these Holy Scriptures? –
1 Corinthians 15:51-52 – Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not …. all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at …. the …. last …. trumpet; for …. the trumpet …. will sound, and the dead …. will be raised (the resurrection) …. imperishable, and we will be changed.
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 – For the Lord Himself …. will descend …. from Heaven with a shout, with …. the voice of the archangel …. and with …. the trumpet of God, and …. the dead …. in Christ …. will rise …. first. Then we who are …. alive and remain (the remnant) …. will be caught up together …. with them …. in the clouds …. to meet the Lord …. in the air, and …. so we shall …. always be …. with …. the Lord.
Michael B Reimann
I’m done.
I answered the original question.
I’m not here for lengthy debates.
I’ve said my part.
Thanks!
Nikki Sheppick
Michael B Reimann Sorry to hear that, was interested in your response …. blessings.
Javier Lopez
If you’re a pre-tribber you can explain this the following way: The “left behind” church won’t be left behind but those who weren’t truly saved will be left behind. But MANY at that time WILL then receive the grace of the truth, and repent, and at that time, they will be saved. However, they’ll need to go through the Great Tribulation period.
John Soulliere
Left behind what?
Charles Page
What is the tribulation?
Mark Wilson
The 7 year period in which the Anti-Christ takes over as the ruler of the earth and demands that everyone worship him. It will end with battle of Armageddon in which Jesus returns to defeat him. A lot of other stuff also happens. Too much to mention here. Go read Revelation… It’s all in there-
Charles Page
Mark Wilson I know that is the view of dispensationalist but is it fact or theory?
Mark Wilson
Considering that it is in the Bible, I consider it a fact.
Mike Matuszewski
1Thessalonians 4:17 isn’t about a rapture…it’s about the resurrection;
The question is essentially moot.
Kote Christie
Yes
Larry Koester
There is no after the tribulation. That is Judgement day itself and the end of this world. What.is left.is the life to come.
Brian Patterson
It would benefit greatly to learn the 3 other main views of end events…you may find them much more credible
Rose Meyer
That’s up to them
Arthur Adam Haglund
Of course. Ther is no pre-trib rapture.
Carlos Sotelo
Wrong.
Arthur Adam Haglund
Nno I am not, you are.
Your turn. this will resolve itself quickly
SMH
Ian Hartley
The Book of Revelation talks about Tribulation Saints. https://www.compellingtruth.org/tribulation-saints.html
Israel Stephen Timi
There’s a pre repture,,,those who don’t make it in repture will remain and have go through tribulations,,,We must not confuse ourselves with REPTURE & 2ND COMING,,,these are two different events,,,,,
Shane Mccall
Israel Stephen Timi
Not according to the Bible
Donivan Felty
Israel Stephen Timi the Bible lists two returns for Christ
The first is he is coming for his saints on the air
1 Corinthians 15:51-55 (KJV) 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory?
The second return is to begin his reign on the earth physically
Revelation 1:7 (KJV) Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
The first return is the first resurrection
The second resurrection is at the great white throne judgment at the end of revelations
Steve Losee
there will be believers after the Harpazo, but no church.
Carlos Sotelo
Only if they don’t accept the mark of the beast.
Michael Widner
There is no rapture. This is ridiculous. I’ve seen this so many times on here. I’m not going to get into a lengthy debate again about this. Rapture doctrine is only a couple hundred years old.
If people are taken as in the days of Noah then those are the tares just like the people who were taken by the flood and died.
Wendy Beard
It is a lie that it is only a couple hundred years old. Christians have believed in it in the beginning and throughout too. It is IN THE BIBLE! Bible Verses That indicate Rapture, most Pretribulation Rapture:
Revelation 3:10 ESV /
Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.
Luke 21:36 ESV
But stay awake at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are going to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.”
1 Corinthians 15:51-54 “Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed-in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: ‘Death has been swallowed up in victory’.”
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 “Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord’s own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage each other with these words.”
Matthew 26:36-44 36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[a] but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.
42 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.”
Luke 17:22-35 22 Then he said to his disciples, “The time is coming when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, but you will not see it.23 People will tell you, ‘There he is!’ or ‘Here he is!’ Do not go running off after them. 24 For the Son of Man in his day[d] will be like the lightning, which flashes and lights up the sky from one end to the other. 25 But first he must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation.
26 “Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man. 27 People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.
28 “It was the same in the days of Lot. People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. 29 But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.
30 “It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed. 31 On that day no one who is on the housetop, with possessions inside, should go down to get them. Likewise, no one in the field should go back for anything. 32 Remember Lot’s wife! 33 Whoever tries to keep their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life will preserve it. 34 I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left.35 Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left.” [36] [e]
Matthew 25 New International Version (NIV)
The Parable of the Ten Virgins
25 “At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2 Five of them were foolish and five were wise. 3 The foolish ones took their lamps but did not take any oil with them. 4 The wise ones, however, took oil in jars along with their lamps. 5 The bridegroom was a long time in coming, and they all became drowsy and fell asleep.
6 “At midnight the cry rang out: ‘Here’s the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!’
7 “Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps. 8 The foolish ones said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out.’
9 “‘No,’ they replied, ‘there may not be enough for both us and you. Instead, go to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.’
10 “But while they were on their way to buy the oil, the bridegroom arrived. The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut.
11 “Later the others also came. ‘Lord, Lord,’ they said, ‘open the door for us!’
12 “But he replied, ‘Truly I tell you, I don’t know you.’
13 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour.
Mark 13:32 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
Besides all the Scripture above, is the fact that there is no rapture or church in Revelation vision chapter 4 -end except the multitudes IN HEAVEN. JEWISH saints are sealed and witness for Christ. Where are the millions of Gentile Christians? None are mentioned as being on earth. Therefore the TRUE SAVED Christians, the bride of Christ, are already raptured and are the multitudes IN HEaVEN in Revelation 7.
Michael Widner
Wendy Beard it was not something they have believed in. It is only something that came about as of the 1800’s.
Wendy Beard
Michael Widner It is IN THE BIBLE ABOVE. How else could this Bible verses possibly be explained. The rapture was imminent. All throughout history. No one knew the day or the hour…
Michael Widner
Wendy Beard there are so many things that need to happen before the second coming. There is no third coming.
Those who are taken are those who are not saved. We have work to do here on earth. We aren’t going to be zapped to heaven and everyone will be wondering where we went.
Gerry Sebastian
that’s for you to know and find out, no pun intended.
John Marshall
Not a salvific issue, but depends on whether you believe a rapture will occur. I tend to believe it will not.
Hingano Kaitu'u
What church if the rapture would occur before the tribulation then there’s no church left on this world that time
Varnel Watson
as Steve Losee assured us just recently
Hingano Kaitu'u
He said just believer but not church!
Hingano Kaitu'u
But your question is the church!
Glenn Buchanan
Some will survive til the millennial period while others I will martyred
Varnel Watson
any BIBLE verses in apologetic defense ?
Varnel Watson
since NO one has been able to produce ANY Biblical proof to defend any left behinder status, can you at least explain the logistics of it I MEAN churches shut down just because of a small virus – what will happen IF an actual antiChrist is in the White House? Anyone can explain or same ol humanistic logicisms?
Madison Willoughby
These passages speak of the rapture of the church which will take place without any warning. Luke 17:22-37; 1 Corinthians 15: 51-52; 1 Thessalonians 4: 14-5:3.
1 Thessalonians 5:3 states that not everyone will escape the destruction which, contextually I believe is the Tribulation. So, of those left behind in the rapture, some will escape the destruction through death because when Christians are pulled from the earth, planes will crash, autos will crash by the millions, same for trains and boats. For those left mayhem will reign. Since no virus will be involved there would be no need to lock people away. Besides, the govt will need bodies to keep the infrastructure of society afloat. The rapture will prove to those who were ‘churched’ but not saved that what they were told for so long, but refused to believe, was all true. They will recognize what’s happened and some of them will begin to evangelize in the name of Jesus because they realize it is their last chance for salvation. With the Holy Spirit’s influence removed from the earth (2 Thess 2:7-8), the antichrist will come to power (2 Thess 2:3-4/Matthew 24:15), a seven year covenant will be signed with Israel (Daniel 9:27) and the tribulation will begin (Matthew 24:19-22). The antichrist will establish a govt which is hostile to the Bible (Matt 24:9-11/2 Thess 2:9-11/Rev 13:11-15), so the church will go underground the world over (Matthew 24;14). The mark of the beast will be implemented (Rev 13:16-17) so those who are loyal to him can buy and sell. Those who belong to God will be marked so they can recognize one another (Rev 7:3).
Many people will be deceived by the antichrist and the signs/wonders he produces (2Thess 2:9-12), but those who remain faithful until the second coming will be saved (Matthew 24:13)
Sometime right after the seven year period of wrath ends, Jesus will return, defeating Satan, the false prophet and antichrist (Matthew 24:27-31).
That’s it. It’s 10:40 and I’m going to bed.
Eric Rankin
Revelation 1:9, “I John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.”
John speaks of both the Kingdom and tribulation and that he was already a participant in both, along with the saints.
The Lord knows those who are His and at His return none will be forgotten, but each person will receive reward for what has been done while in the body. 2 Corinthians 5:10, “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.” ?
Kihoshe Assumi
No question about survival, trouble after trouble awaited.
Manuel Alejandro Acevedo Mojica
this starts out on the premise that the rapture is before the tribulation, which is not
David Jones
Not without the Holy Spirit. Without the Holy Spirit all is lost
Jonathan Patterson
Church won’t be left behind
https://youtu.be/o_pYr2-U3hk
Nikki Sheppick
The Holy Scriptures – when studied – tell us that no true believer in Jesus the Christ shall be left here when the Holy Wrath of God falls upon this corrupted earth. – Romans 5:9
Much more then, being now justified …. by His blood, we will be …. saved from …. God’s wrath (not troubles/tribulation) …. through Him. – https://biblehub.com/topical/w/wrath.htm His Holy Wrath is coming, the Day of the Lord. Amen and Amen.
Girlie Grimaldo Laña
Is it true that after the rapture the church will return with jesus why we need to go up the it will go down again?
Girlie Grimaldo Laña
Why we need to go up if will go down again
Gary Micheal Epping
Without twisting scripture, what did Jesus say in Mat 24, “29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His [d]elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”
Nikki Sheppick
And compare to the Seals in Rev. 6 too.
Brett Rickard
To the OP: well yes because left behind is completely wrong
Jo Kothenbeutel
Well no.
Because the Church is raptured away
Julian Collins
The Tribulation WILL sort out those who have been left behind
Myvanis Lombard
Not likely, Troy, because the tribulation is going to be unbearable.
And most Christian’s who hope to be raptured are going to get a serious surprise, because modern Christian’s live for themselves. They may go so far as to pray daily and say some mantra over their food and some even go further and warm up the pews for an hour Sundays, but back at home the usual self return and the self us back on the throne.
Christian’s also has forgotten the great command of preaching and reaching out. No one is exempted, not even the person on the deathbed or in a wheelchair. You have a duty to the Father first and then to yourself. Its actually the exact opposite these days.
Even now Christian’s are falling away for simple reasons. During tribulation they would fall away en masse and very very few will be able to endure.
Varnel Watson
I agree with this SO much Myvanis Lombard See more from my post about this here A small virus shut down most churches in the world and they are so crippled they can hardly open again HOW is such a weak church open during the Tribulation and save soul? No cant do
(1) for starters: ONLY the ones who take the mark of the Beast (whoever that may be) will not be able to buy or sell. Anything! Food, gas, electricity, water – absolutely nothing.
(2) The pastors will NOT be able to receive salaries, insurance or anything included in their package. Remember, if the church cannot buy or sale, neither can the pastor receive a salary. And even if a salary is given, what would the pastor spend it on without the mark of the beast?
(3) Tithing system – those are most usually set up with a paper check or some sort of electronic banking like debiting or crediting. With the mark of the beast, the church will NOT be able to receive those moneys and even if it does, it cannot operate with them to buy or sell anything.
(4) What about church buildings – without the mark of the beast they will not be able to purchase any service – electricity, lights, internet, gas for church vans, insurance, special events, catering, food – no communion elements. Nothing at all. With no professional services available, a church building may last a few months, but will fall apart soon before the Tribulation is over… Just think about it
(5) Any other church related logistics or operations that depend on the purchase of gasoline and transportation. They way current church infrastructure in America is set up, how many would actually take the time to walk miles and miles to a church?
Brian Lally
Nobody in The Church will be left behind And Nobody in The Church will escape any tribulation period unless those persons are called home
Varnel Watson
Brian Lally how do you respond to my 5 points posted above? How would you propose the church to survive according to your theoretical hypothesis which by the way is NOT in the BIBLE The Bible clearly says
Revelation 3:10 King James Version (KJV)
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth
http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/why-am-i-not-a-calvinist/
Brian Lally
Troy Day Those who serve The Lord WILL suffer persecution in every age. those saints brothers and sisters of mine were serving The Lord when they were thrown to the lions crucified burned at the stake beheaded! They suffered serving faithfully and we in a lukewarm age think The Lord is going to mollycuddle us. Whatever the threat against Gods people anyway He will always have a people who will stand firm My God is able to keep a faithful remnant. He will always have His Church. He always has ‘7000’ who will not bow the knee to Baal. Those who are called to be kept alive till the return of Christ will be caught up to be with Him in the air in the twinkling of an eye because all His people will have to be gloriously changed to cope with the glorious presence of The Saviour There is coming a day in which God will intervene and intervene He must. Otherwise no flesh shall be saved alive. The return of The Lord will usher in a new heaven and a new earth His glory and His power destroying the wicked. His brightness will smite the antichrist and The Angels will have gone out into all the quarters of the world and taken up and bound the wicked (the tares) who will be cast into the fire prepared for the devil and his angels As I have said When that day comes it will be a day in which no flesh shall be saved alive except The Lord intervenes. After that we shall reign with Him forevermore in the glory of His Kingdom. Until then we will have to endure whatever comes our way for being faithful to The Master
Myvanis Lombard
Go and stay in the wild for a weekend with only that which you can carry with you – or in your own backyard without ever going into the house and decide whether you will have the faith to endure it for years.
Varnel Watson
thats what I say Myvanis Lombard Larry Dale Steele go ahead and stay all the way if you want OR half way Dont matter You can even have my truck BUT you cant have my guns Ima gonna need them all 🙂 Brian Lally Isara Mo
Brian Lally
read Hebrews chapter 11.
Nicholas Juma Wanyama
There will be brethren who will be left behind for they are not ready. These must pass through purifying process to meet their colleagues who were raptured earlier and went to meet the face of their Father in heaven.
Brian Lally
Nicholas Juma Wanyama sounds like papish teaching on purgatory Everyone who believes on The Lord Jesus Christ will be saved. All who call on Him will be saved. The thief on the cross looked to Christ and is in heaven today
Nicholas Juma Wanyama
Brian Lally … what do you understand by this statement? ?.
1 Corinthians 9:25-27
[25]And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
[26]I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
[27]But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
Brian Lally
Nicholas Juma Wanyama you are saved by grace
Nicholas Juma Wanyama
Brian Lally …who told you that grace is living a careless life then expect to be in the Kingdom? Grace means having the evidence of the holy life of Christ Jesus expressed in you outwardly by faith to men.
1 Corinthians 6:9-10
[9]Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
[10]Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Brian Lally
What nonsense
Brian Lally
Nicholas Juma Wanyama you first of all confuse Pauls defence of his apostleship with his salvation he did not get saved fighting to keep his body into subjection. He had an encounter with my Saviour whilst travelling on the road to Damascus as an unsaved Pharisee persecuting Christs people Then you are trying to tell me that saved people are committing adultery lying thieving stealing engaged in homosexuality etc. If they are not right with God at His return there is only one destination for reprobates. There is no second chance I am not into futurism! Or dispensationism! You are either saved at His return or you or not ! There is nosing thing in the bible which describes pretribulation millennialism
Nicholas Juma Wanyama
Brian Lally … you are talking like a foolish Virgin who after giving his life to Jesus waits there for His coming onli. Christ is coming for mature saints in faith. You cannot live a careless life and expect to be taken like you are without purification.
1 Corinthians 3:11-18
[11]For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
[12]Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
[13]Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is.
[14]If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
[15]If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
[16]Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
[17]If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
[18]Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
Brian Lally
Nicholas Juma Wanyama again nonsense from you
Brian Lally
Nicholas Juma Wanyama there will be people saved through tribulation periods Some have died for Christ not even having seen a copy of the bible. Some have died for Christ who cannot even read or ever gone to a church service but thank God they hear and faith has come by hearing, though a little faith and that God will not quench. God gives saving grace to all who believe on Him
Keith A. Smith
Better get right with Jesus ASAP. That is all.
Varnel Watson
Gary Micheal Epping as I just told Nikki Sheppick Mt 24 refers mainly to ISRAEL – WHO was Jesus speaking to in Mt 24? Who was right there with Him listening – no gentiles of course
Nikki Sheppick
Compare Rev. 6 (the Seals being opened by the Holy Lamb of God) and then reference Mt. 24, etc. in the Gospels, …. till the 6th Seal, which transitions into the 1st Trump(et), what do you see?
Varnel Watson
Nikki Sheppick No need to do that just yet Jesus had NOT spoken Rev 6 when he was addressing Israel in Mt 24 Lk 21 Where is ANY proof Mt 24 refers to the NT church? The 6th seal and the 7th Trump theories are man made
Grace Williams
Troy Day It doesn’t. Most just assume that it does ?
Varnel Watson
Grace Williams then we have NO proof of ANY church left behind like Steve Losee already told us Church is with Jesus during the tribulation
Nikki Sheppick
Troy Day It is in the NT, it is the Holy Words of Jesus the Christ, from which and Whose teachings, the Apostles, disciples and whosoever thereafter follow.
Grace Williams
Troy Day Absolutely . You are correct.
Nikki Sheppick
We are all One in Jesus the Christ, if all who profess Him reverently trust in what Jesus did for and in place of us on the cross at Calvary. By the Holy Blood of the Lamb, led/guided by the Holy Word of the Living God, Jesus the Christ, the One and Only Begotten (Incarnate) Son of the God. Amen and Amen.
Varnel Watson
Nikki Sheppick oh come on Of course we are all in on but we are not one and all There was NO NT church when Jesus spoke in Mt 24 He spoke directly to Jewish covenant believers referring to Israel Hence the figtree prophecy
Grace Williams
Matthew 24 : 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the HOLY Place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:), 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 24 : But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Grace Williams
Matthew 24 has nothing to do with NT church
Grace Williams
Nikki Sheppick One in Christ doesn’t mean we are physical nation of Israel
Nikki Sheppick
Jesus Spoke to His followers …. and each and every one who follows Him, and continues to follow Him …. is His “church”, that is the Body of Christ. And for whether we are gentile, jew, male, female, etc. …. we are made as One with Him, for so Jesus, being the Holy Word of God Incarnate, Spoke it, so it is. Thus, those are the true “Jews”, who are in the heart, not in the flesh.
And if a follower continues on with He Who is the Holy Word of God, abiding in Him, and following His Holy Word over all, they – not falling away after some other “Christ” or “Gospel”, sealed and blessed are they forevermore. Amen and Amen. Therefore, who is it that you “follow” …. for the Holy One of Truth and Life …. the Holy Word of the Living God, is Who I abide with. <3
Varnel Watson
Nikki Sheppick Many scholars agree to the
fact that the Gospel was addressed to Jews living in the
diaspora. Firstly because of the fact that it is accepted that
the book was written in the Greek language, though many
defend the view that it was written in Hebrew. This is
expressly stated by Irenaeus, Origen, Eusebius, and
Gregory Nazianzen.
Secondly, ―the genealogy of Jesus
goes back only to Abraham, the father of the Hebrew
race. And finally, one can see that there are a lot of
Jewish features expressed in the book.
It is clearly seen throughout the book that it was Matthew‘s
purpose to convince the Jews that Jesus was the Christ, the
great Davidic King and the Messiah promised by the prophets. Matthew seems to show by his narrative to the
readers how all the prophecies made by the prophets have
had their fulfillment in the life and the ministry of Jesus.
Nikki Sheppick
I follow Jesus the Christ, not any other scholar or teacher, even as the Apostles and the disciples/followers have done ever since He walked the earth, …. 6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;
19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.
21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?
22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?
23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.
25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. – https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Romans-Chapter-2/
Varnel Watson
Nikki Sheppick lets get an actual exegesis here pls and not some folklore level Sunday school literature This here is good enough to establish audience and how the Greek is used https://www.researchgate.net/publication/319208226_Exegesis_of_Matthew_2414_The_Meaning_of_the_End
Nikki Sheppick
All depends on who a person is following, broad is the way of destruction and many fall therein …. if all is not in harmony with God’s Holy Word, Who is Holy Truth and Life Eternal …. as Jesus Said: “My Words are Spirit.” “God is Spirit.” “God is the Spirit of Truth and Life.” “I Am …. the Way, the Truth and the Life.” …. blessed are all those found standing soundly in the Holy Blood of the Lamb for salvation, and following after the Holy Word of Jesus the Christ, Who is the One and Only Begotten Son of the Living God. Rev. 3, Rev. 6, Rev. 12:10-12, Rev. 20:4, KJV …. be found over-coming by what God’s Holy Word speaks, and not following anyone who suffers from itchy ears.
Gary Micheal Epping
Troy Day Actually he was speaking to his disciples about what was to come after they had asked.. No mention of a pretrib rapture. If that were true, Jesus would have told them so. What he did say was after the tribulation.
Varnel Watson
Gary Micheal Epping Not sure what you are saying except proving my point I clearly stated above with much proof the Jewish audience context of Mt 24 and Lk 21 Which BTW does not disprove pre-Trib rapture in any way
Pls remind me what was your argument from back in the day How would any church survive the Tribulation
Varnel Watson
in MT 24 His response is lengthy – 94 verses in Matthew 24-25. “See that ye be not troubled” – His is talking directly to His Apostles (Mark 13:3-4). Neil Steven Lawrence
Neil Steven Lawrence
Troy Day no they will all have their heads cut off. Survival on this earth is not the goal as a Christian left behind in the great tribulation.
Revelation 7:9; 14
“…a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne…
“These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb”
After the Rapture it’s going to get bloody!
Varnel Watson
Neil Steven Lawrence well trying to introduce some exegesis BUT seems not common to this here apologetica 🙂 https://www.researchgate.net/publication/319208226_Exegesis_of_Matthew_2414_The_Meaning_of_the_End
Grace Williams
Excellent, Mr Day.
Grace Williams
Most of the people don’t /won’t/ can’t separate the nation of Israel to NT Church – hence the utter confusion
Varnel Watson
Matthew chapter 23-25 records Jesus‘ Eschatological discourse with His disciples. In the midst of
this discourse Jesus said in Matthew 24:14: ―And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all
the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.‖ This text has been studied by
many scholars in order to have a better understanding of it. What is the meaning of ―ηὸ ηέλος‖ (the
end)? the primary meaning and interpretation of ―ηὸ ηέλος‖ is referring to the second coming of Jesus since it has commonalities with the destruction
of Jerusalem.
Nikki Sheppick
I do not disagree with the Holy Words of Jesus the Christ.
Varnel Watson
Nikki Sheppick but do you understand it in its original enough to agree or disagree? https://www.researchgate.net/publication/319208226_Exegesis_of_Matthew_2414_The_Meaning_of_the_End
Nikki Sheppick
I hold to the Holy Way, Truth and Life of Jesus the Christ as He, the Holy One reveals, for He is the Savior and the Teacher of man’s souls.
Varnel Watson
Nikki Sheppick Many scholars agree to the
fact that the Gospel was addressed to Jews living in the
diaspora. Firstly because of the fact that it is accepted that
the book was written in the Greek language, though many
defend the view that it was written in Hebrew. This is
expressly stated by Irenaeus, Origen, Eusebius, and
Gregory Nazianzen. Secondly, ―the genealogy of Jesus
goes back only to Abraham, the father of the Hebrew
race.‖And finally, one can see that there are a lot of
Jewish features expressed in the book.
It is clearly seen throughout the book that it was Matthew‘s
purpose to convince the Jews that Jesus was the Christ, the
great Davidic King and the Messiah promised by the prophets. Matthew seems to show by his narrative to the
readers how all the prophecies made by the prophets have
had their fulfillment in the life and the ministry of Jesus
Nikki Sheppick
Many are called, but few are chosen. Jesus Said: “Be of good courage, and …. follow …. Me.” So, then, I follow after Him …. for He is One with the Father …. being the Holy Word of God Incarnate, Jn. 1, Gen. 1, Jn. 3.
Varnel Watson
Nikki Sheppick meme theology dont work here you see The MT 24 text is pretty technical in the Greek for a meme to explain it with one click or so https://www.researchgate.net/publication/319208226_Exegesis_of_Matthew_2414_The_Meaning_of_the_End
Nikki Sheppick
Troy Day Be found following Jesus the Christ, not any other …. Amen and Amen. Blessings …. <3
Tim Lewis
How can there be a Church if the Holy Spirit is not present ?
Varnel Watson
If the Holy Spirit is NOT present Tim Lewis nobody could be saved during the Tribulation As a continualoist I believe the Holy Spirit is NOT limited by periods or denominations and is always present and working on earth even during the Tribulation
Steven Baghott
The following wrath of God will be a judgment against unbelievers! I would not neglect the thing God required to be prepared fore the first resurrection. That’s the last and only call to come up higher!
Nicholas Juma Wanyama
It must survive by all means because left behind saints must go through purification and none lost to meet others who were raptured earlier coming from meeting Father in heaven.
Daniel 12:9-10
[9]And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
[10]Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
John 10:27-29
[27]My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
[28]And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
[29]My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.
Nikki Sheppick
As long as even one remains, God’s Wrath will not come …. for it is His Holy will …. that NO ONE perish …. but, indeed, the Day of the Lord …. will come. That which is written, so shall it be. God’s will …. will be done. Amen and Amen.
Nicholas Juma Wanyama
Nikki Sheppick ..if you live like the world must come for you.
1 Corinthians 11:31-32
[31]For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
[32]But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.
Varnel Watson
Nicholas Juma Wanyama Nikki Sheppick As long as even one remains, God’s Wrath will not come IS actually NOT true
As Revelation clearly reads MANY remain and God’s wrath comes upon them in many way s
Nikki Sheppick
Troy Day One believer, Troy, one of God’s own.
Varnel Watson
Nikki Sheppick I see your point What are the chances I post my 3 posts in question form right now So they can be posted for the rest of the day?
Nikki Sheppick
Troy Day First, follow the rules provided, and 2nd realize that even if a Moderator or Administrator might agree with a person’s political persuasion, we are to delete direct political oriented ones. Thank you.
Varnel Watson
Nikki Sheppick I am always about the rules – apologetic 3 a day now learned in question form What did I miss?
Nikki Sheppick
Troy Day No political items are allowed. That is for other sites. Thank you.
Nicholas Juma Wanyama
Troy Day …wrath comes on the children of disobedience. Once one is born again the Holy Spirit begins the work of recovery till death. This is an ongoing process. Remember have already been translated into another kingdom..
Nicholas Juma Wanyama
Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Nicholas Juma Wanyama
Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
Nicholas Juma Wanyama
Our Life is hid in Christ in God where sin has no access. God no longer sees seen in us but Christ through His precious blood. Therefore if we get outside Christ to equate ourselves with the world are in sin and there the hand of God will get us but to restore us back into His fold…………………………………………..Heb 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Heb 12:3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
Heb 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
Heb 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
Heb 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
Varnel Watson
Nicholas Juma Wanyama THANK YOU same with REV 3 10
Varnel Watson
JUST TO DRAW a LINE HERE
150+ comments later I have not seen ANY proof that any church can pass the Tribulation in any rate of success ALSO while quite general talk and humanistic logic is offered, no one has yet addressed the arguments within the actual OP which are pretty solid so far
Nikki Sheppick Gary Micheal Epping
Nikki Sheppick
Everyone is allowed to have an opinion, unless they break the rules provided for all, of course. Blessings ….
Brian Lally
read Hebrews chapter 11
Varnel Watson
I read it – still no case for what asked in OP Faith will help you little during the Tribulation when you are left behind for the lack of faith/ So what faith from Heb 11? Brian Lally
Brian Lally
Troy Day no one will be left behind who belongs to Christ
Brian Lally
In that day the wicked will be destroyed as tares bound for the fire We who are alive says Paul will be caught up to meet with The Lord in the air to be with those who have already gone home and so forever more we will be at home with Him
Brian Lally
I have not swallowed the big lie of futurism invented by the Jesuits and neither am I swallowing their lie of a pre tribulation rapture The church will go through a final persecution but The Lord will not let it perish can any persecution be worse than those experienced by the the early church saints under Diocletian Nero and through the middle ages at the hand of The Roman Catholic Church (read Fox’s book of martyrs) the wicked and dreadful persecutions of The Huguenots The Waldensians and others The Spanish Inquisition and more recently under Stalin Marx Ceacescu Pol Pot Mao Kim Read about the persecution of the Serbian people during WW2 at the hand of the RC church
Scott Ross
Doesn’t matter since the tribulation already happened in 70 AD (Revelation 1:9)
Dennis Ravas
Yes…to add another chapter to the novels of Jenkins and La Haye.
Gary Micheal Epping
Answer to OP. The church would survive because Jesus would protect his own. Not so for the unbeliever. If God provided for the Israelites for 40 years, He can protect the church for 7 years.
Varnel Watson
RichardAnna Boyce short answer NO
long answer nooooo
what does your free grace commentary say? Tammy Lindsay
Tammy Lindsay
Troy Day Christians are the church we are the bride of Christ.
Varnel Watson
Tammy Lindsay I agree So let the bride be taken away and let the sinners be left behind Jim Ellis RichardAnna Boyce
Tammy Lindsay
Troy Day John 8:12 KJV
Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
Chapman Junius
Troy Day The bride is a sinner as well.
Judy Villania
Chapman Junius is that biblical?
Varnel Watson
Judy Villania yes it is
Andrew J. Panish
Chapman Junius Yes. Everyone while on earth will be a sinner. Living in sin condemns. Being born again with occasional backsliding remains saved as Bride of Christ. Living in sin = not saved.
Judy Villania
Troy Day how can the church become the bride of the holy one if she still sinner?
Orall Burns
Yep, cause their is no left behind church. There is no pre-trib rapture!
Varnel Watson
hahaha there is none until there is one and you get left way behind with the antiChrist
Orall Burns
Troy Day we shall see
Tammy Lindsay
Orall Burns ? ??????? ?? ????? ???? ??? ??????? ?? ? ???-??????????? ???????
1. The tribulation’s purpose concerns Israel and not the Church, that is why it is also called the time of Jacob’s trouble (Jeremiah 30:7, Daniel 9:24).
2. There are no biblical references to the Church being on Earth during the Tribulation period in Revelation 4-22.
3. The Church is promised an exemption from divine wrath (1 Thessalonians 1:10, 5:9, Revelation 3:10, 6:17) and the whole 7 year tribulation period is God’s wrath because it is Jesus Christ who opens all 7 seals of the scroll in Revelation 5. This also rules out the Mid-tribulation/Pre-wrath views of the rapture.
4. The Rapture is imminent (1 Corinthians 15:51, 1 Thessalonians 4:15) which means that it cannot occur at the end of the tribulation. This also rules out the Post-tribulation view of the rapture. The Post-tribulation rapture view is not possible because if the Church was raptured at the end of the tribulation and immediately returned to the Earth, everyone on Earth would have Glorified/immortal bodies and there would be no-one able to repopulate the earth during the 1000 year Millennial reign of Jesus Christ.
5. The Rapture is a comfort (1 Thessalonians 4:18). It would be no comfort to the Church if we had to go through the Tribulation period and suffer God’s wrath.
6. The Antichrist cannot come to power until the restrainer is removed (2 Thessalonians 2:6-7). The Holy Spirit is the restrainer (2 Thessalonians 2:9) and when the Holy Spirit is taken out of the way, the Church will be removed from the Earth in the rapture. All born again Christians will go in the rapture as they are all sealed with the Holy Spirit of Promise until the day of redemption (Ephesians 1:13, 4:30, John 14:16, Romans 8:9).
7. The Symbolic parallels (2 Peter 2:5-9). Enoch was taken before the flood (Genesis 5:24). Noah was protected before the flood (Genesis 7:6-7). Lot taken before judgment upon Sodom and Gomorrah (2 Peter 2:7, Genesis 19:22).
Varnel Watson
Orall Burns we are seeing right now from the BIBLE but you are right The world shall see
Tammy Lindsay
Orall Burns bible scripture to back up what you are saying please and thank you.
Tammy Lindsay
Orall Burns
Orall Burns
Tammy Lindsay You radical fanatical are a trip. That’s why I love Facebook, it’s like the Walmart and fair grounds of the internet, so entertaining! Who needs TV when you have Facebook ?
Mike Forfar
Tammy Lindsay after the great tribulation
Tammy Lindsay
Orall Burns you being ignorant shows you don’t study the holy word of God no bible scripture to back up your comments ?
Tammy Lindsay
Orall Burns good try troll ??
Varnel Watson
Tammy Lindsay I was just gonna call that but then again wanted to be nice so early in the morning
Tammy Lindsay
Orall Burns you should probably go watch more TV ?
Tammy Lindsay
Mike Forfar bible scripture to back up your comment please.
Tammy Lindsay
Orall Burns you should probably get a Job at Walmart by the way do you work I have a question for you do you know Jesus Christ as your personal saviour I will wait
Donan Jn Baptiste
It Will be harder because antichrist will oppose every church and believer preaching Christ.
Varnel Watson
as he is right now BTW
Nana Kweku Nyarko
So you believe in those human Fallacies of from Hollywood?
Danny Cronin
ask Nick Cage
Tammy Lindsay
You have trolls on this post
RichardAnna Boyce
Believers (at time of Rapture) dont go through tribulation, but Jews who will all become Messianic will thrive during the Tribulation.
Varnel Watson
YES
Elena Moleno Quinn
yes.
Anonymous
A “left behind church” would be a false church. Who knows what they might believe and teach or how long they could continue.