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| PentecostalTheology.com
By Oscar Valdez
Here revisiting and studying the chapter, The Posttribulationism of the New Testament: Leaving “Left Behind” Behind. Which would translate to something like, The New Testament Post-tribulation: Leaving the Left Behind. The “Left Behind” alluds to sensationalism produced by certain “dispensationalists” who focus on the end-of-day events and news in order to predict or see where the timeline of the signs of the end goes. The reality is that not all dispensationalists concentrate on this, much less do the true masters of dispensationalism today, so we can’t generalize that every dispensationalist is a sensationalist.
I will just give first observations, reviewing it paragraph by paragraph, and each of the biblical quotes mentioned, at the moment it seems incredible to me that there can be a historical pre-millennialism that does not believe in a great tribulation just before the sec the coming of Christ, which from the destruction of Jerusalem into in the year 70 AD Blomberg raised a situation of continuous tribulations, in which at times greater or lesser in intensity, affliction, difficulty, suffering, etc. It’s a hard thing to process.
If you don’t expect a short period of great tribulation (Although other premillenaries do) according to Matthew 24:21. Neither Israel has a final role in this period, easily Blomberg would connect to amillennialism if he so wanted, it is clear that covenant theology would be his backbone, that is why he also sees in Revelation 7:4 onwards don of the 144 thousand represent the church and not ethnic Israel, going through a period of tribulation, henceforth becomes very confused in its language, what if it is clear is that the interpretation given by some verses in Revelation is very similar to the Amilenian interpretation I of these.
Finally it seems that Blomberg has in mind that the tribulation mentioned in the Gospels and in Revelation was designed for the church to go through it, when in fact that great tribulation unlike tribulations, afflicc ions, sufferings or difficulties that the church goes through or the Christian within their stay on this earth, is something different. This great tribulation of the Gospels and Revelation, is upon ALL the world and unprecedented and especially for Israel and the unbelievers. Finally Blomberg dedicates paragraphs to demonstrate that post-tribulacionism is a better option than pre-tribulationism, but never clarifies how it would be in the form of an event exactly this post-tribulation snatch, I do not know if sera that famous vue it in “U” the thing is that it doesn’t say anything about it, and in the question of the imminence of Christ’s return is minimal his contribution.
Anonymous
thatS pretty much IT Oscar Valdez but lets not tag Link Hudson Philip Williams cause as part of DAN they may like to stay ONE MORE NIGHT with them frogs… https://www.pentecostalnews.com/2023/01/18/why-is-dan-missing-in-the-apocalyptic-vision-perry-stone/
Brett Dobbs
This article made absolutely no sense whatsoever.
Anonymous
Link Hudson stated: very childish post.
Brett Dobbs declared: This article made absolutely no sense whatsoever.
its Gary Micheal Epping birthday today – wish him ALL the best…
Anonymous
Troy Day I feel like Oscar Valdez’s point was incomplete. What was his point? Am I overlooking something?
Anonymous
Brett Dobbs good question for Oscar Valdez his hist.preMil is deluted. Pls read Wayne Grudem, Systematic Theology: An Introduction to Biblical Doctrine (Grand Rapids: Zondervan Publishing House, 1994), 1112. Therefore, Historic Premillennialism is also “posttribulational” meaning that Christ returns after the Great Tribulation.
Anonymous
thatS pretty much IT Oscar Valdez Jeffrey Snyder but lets not tag Kyle Williams Philip Williams cause as part of Dan they may like to stay ONE MORE NIGHT with them frogs… https://www.pentecostalnews.com/2023/01/18/why-is-dan-missing-in-the-apocalyptic-vision-perry-stone/
Anonymous
Brett Dobbs I dont know what you are saying about Oscar Valdez’s point? what else needs to be said – he was pretty thorough and holistic IMHO
Anonymous
Link Hudson you wrote
– Troy Day I have not argued that the great tribulation has started so why would I provide a verse for that?
WELL post at least some verse that proves something youVE said about TRIB eh?
Anonymous
Troy Day a pretribulational rapture is not taught in scripture. How can I post scripture about it. If you believe the rapture—which occurs at the coming of the Lord—is pretribulational, then post some scripture to support the idea.
I have already posted scripture that the coming of the son of man occurs after the tribulation.
Anonymous
Link Hudson There are plenty of verses in the BIBLE about pretribulational rapture which Darnell Henson Jr. posted for you but you of course ignored 🙂 You were asked to post verses about POSTtribulational rapture which is in fact not taught in scripture, so how could you?
Anonymous
Troy Day I am not sure if I read that post or not. I don’t always remember who posts what. But I have seen a multitude of cases of pre-tribbers posting verses about the rapture, the second coming, thinking they are providing evidence when there is no evidence in these verses for a pretrib rapture in them.
The scriptures teach that the coming of the Son of Man and the gathering happen after the tribulation. This is in Matthew 24. Paul refers to the coming of the Lord and our __gathering__ unto him in II Thessalonians 2. The same chapter sets the destruction of the man of sin at His coming.
It should be easy to cut and paste a verse that shows that the rapture happens before the tribulation if there is one. The evidence you have presented is a verse about John being told to ‘come up hither’ in a vision, as if that were evidence for a pretrib rapture. Then you quoted a video from a man who disagreed with that interpretation.
Anonymous
Link Hudson yes you need to read it before you standart copy past here
Anonymous
Troy Day YOUR tagging ME. I don’t know what you are talking about (re a Darnell Henson Jr post.) I very rarely cut and paste in response to threads.
Anonymous
Link Hudson I tagged YOU because you first tagged ME with something you’ve said hundreds of times and it is plain wrong. Do you have anything NEW to add to your defense since you tagged me first?
if you are lost in the comments you FIRST tagged me when you wrote
Troy Day I have not argued that the great tribulation has started so why would I provide a verse for that?
to which I responded clearly as a respondent to your inquiry :
WELL post at least some verse that proves something youVE said about TRIB eh?
Instead of defending your false position you are falsely accusing me of tagging you first, which I did not – and it is not a problem even if I did. This is how ppl on the internet address each other – by tagging. IF you have problems with tagging you can disable tagging. Then you will complain you’ve been mentioned or NOT mentioned. Anyways, this is ALL old drama from you – how about some new and original material?
Anonymous
Troy Day It’s seems like a childish game you are playing. You prove that I tag you first by quoting my comment about your having tagged me prior. That makes no sense.
I have posted reasons for post trib before…e.g. Matthew 24 post trib coming of the Son of man compared with coming of the Lord and out gathering unto him in II Thessalonians 2.
There is also the fact that I Thessalonians 4, the one ‘rapture’ passage that mentions harpazo, sets the rapture at the coming of the Lord right after the resurrection of the dead in Christ. Revelation sets II Thessalonians 2 says the lawless one is destroyed at the brightness of His coming.
Revelation describes the resurrection of people faithful to Jesus, and sets the ‘first resurrection’ after the great tribulation and before the thousand year reign. The rapture passage sets the rapture right after the resurrection of the dead in Christ.
The burden of proof is on pre-tribbers who must add an extra coming of Christ or try to make the coming of Christ last seven years for it to make any sense at all. Where is your evidence for that? The burden of proof is on pre-tribbers to offer evidence that something besides a straight-forward more literal interpretation of these texts is viable. I do not need to offer any kind of evidence. The burden of proof is on pretribbers like yourself.
So far, what evidence have you offered to pretrib?
– Trying to argue that John being told ‘come up hither’ in his vision which he had in the first century proves the rapture of the church is pretribulational.
– Saying we are not ‘appointed unto wrath’ when it doesn’t make sense that God would be angry at the tribulational saints either, based on what scripture says about it and the fact that they also obtain salvation, while the verse says ‘not appointed unto wrath but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.’
– Insinuating that there is something in the Greek of II Thessalonians that indicates that the rapture is pretrib, without your ever actually offering the evidence.
– You studied theology so you must be right.
– links to Perry Stone videos where he doesn’t offer evidence for pre-trib, but just offers how pre-tribbers interpret passages if they assume pre-trib to be true.
– links to other weak arguments, like an article that argues that if the apostasia refers to falling away from the faith, that would be too ‘subjective.’
None of the feathery arguments are weighty enough to add an extra return of Christ when the scriptures do not teach it, to add another resurrection of the dead at a point in time where scripture does not teach it, or to put the rapture of the church at a point in time where the scripture does not teach it.
You tag differently from other people.
1. You tag to get people to interact on a thread they are not involved with. I hardly see anyone else do that unless they are quoting someone or something along those lines or responding to something they said. I have gotten tagged with multitudes of others occasionally in photos, and I turn off notifications for that kind of junk.
2. You include people’s names in the middle of a sentence when it doesn’t make sense, or it makes the sentence say something that isn’t true, like attributing an idea to them that is not theirs or accusing them of something.
Tagging someone while making vague accusations is rather irritating also. You use tagging to goad quite often.
Anonymous
Link Hudson you keep on posting the SAME thing – you have not yet even proven connection between the Matthean text and the Pauline epistle. You are not even implying such connection, just juggling the 2 texts like they are NOT Bible for you. Prove connection and let’s start discussing:
You post your texts LIKE you connect rapture/resurrection (1 Cor. 15:52; 1 Thess 4:16) with Mt 24 – in this case JUST for starters answer the question which Kyle Williams should be asking you about this right now
First SHOW resurrection in Mt24 or even INTENT for resurrection and we can talk further about your alleged/allusive connection or even a slight eschatological intent. Show where is resurrection here:
Matthew 24:29-31 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: (30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
and PLS do not come back @ me with your usual copy/pastes “Are you saying that…” The answer is NO, I am not saying anything you imply, but I do expect you to prove resurrection in Mt 24 before you pretend knowing more about it. If you cant prove resurrection you have NO connection
Anonymous
Troy Day Let’s start with common assumptions and reason from there.
Do you interpret the coming of the Son of man to refer to the coming of Christ to the earth? Yes or no. We can reason based on that assumption. There are a lot of theological positions on that issue.
The disciples had asked Jesus about His coming. Is Jesus Lord? is Jesus the Son of Man?
Second, there is no reason to think that Paul’s teaching of the coming of the Lord in one book he wrote does not refer to the same event as the coming of the Lord in another of his epistles. We should take them as referring to the same event unless there is evidence to the contrary.
Do I need to prove that red is red or that green is green, also?
The burden of proof is on pretribbers to prove that Paul’s two references to the coming of the Lord in II Thessalonians 2 refer to two events (or one event stretched out for seven years.) The burden of proof is on pretribbers if they wish to prove that the coming of the Lord in I Thessalonians 4 is a different event than the coming of the Lord in I Corinthians 15.
You post your evidence. The burden of proof is on you. Where do you get any evidence at all for an extra coming before the rapture. Without that, it is reasonable to assume they all refer to the same thing. Again, the burden of proof is on me.
If you want me to prove that they are not the same.
I could ask you for Biblical proof that the ghost of Harry Belafonte won’t appear in the sky and sing the Banana Boat song before the man of sin is revealed, and to disprove that doctrine from scripture. But I have no Biblical evidence for the appearing of the ghost of Harry Belafonte as an end time event, just as you have none for a pre-trib rapture.
If a Belafonte apparition were a part of my eschatology, I’d have to offer evidence for it, just like the burden of proof is on you to support the idea of an extra rapture/resurrection/coming of Christ event before what scripture calls the ‘first resurrection’ at the second coming.
Anonymous
Link Hudson I cannot entertain your questions at this time UNTIL you show the word resurrection in Mt 24 even allusion may do… I’ll wait
Anonymous
Troy Day That’s a nice Islamic apologist approach to the issue– like when they say, “Show me in the Bible where it says, ‘Jesus is God.'” You try to shift the burden of proof onto me.
The gathering of the elect IS mentioned. We look at other scripture to clarify what that means. II Thessalonians 2 speaks of the coming of the Lord and our gathering unto him. I Thessalonians 4 clarifies that the dead in Christ will rise first and we will be caught up together with them to meet the Lord in the air.
Yours is the ridiculous position… if you have no evidence for it. Can you show me IN SCRIPTURE where Jesus returns twice. Can you show me where the saints are resurrected before the saints are resurrected at the FIRST RESURRECTION in Revelation?
Anonymous
Link Hudson I would know about Islamic apologist approach only if I laerned it from you YES
The burden of proof is yours of course
cause you stated connection between Mt24 and 1Thes4
since one has resurrection the other needs it to
OR you are comparing apples to oranges once again
The gathering of the elect in Mt24 was spoken to JEWS
in this context as Duane L Burgess rightly asserted
It must refer to Jews as God’s saints
Yes you can take it out of context and force it to mean the NT Church but neither Jesus meant it this way NOR his audience understood it this way
therefore your argument is out of context which is OK
because at times you lack the knowledge which is also OK
It is NOT OK however to claim Jesus said something He never said
like Never said resurrection in Mt 24
even if then we decide to agree with you – it plainly says
gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other,
which as Neil Steven Lawrence Michael Chauncey mentioned must mean the church is already in heaven 🙂 where it will be gathered from one end of the heavens to the other, – makes sense to some