Is predestination biblical?

Posted by Timothy D McCune in Facebook's Pentecostal Theology Group View the Original Post

Question: “What is predestination? Is predestination biblical?”

Answer: Romans 8:29-30 tells us, “For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.” Ephesians 1:5 and 11 declare, “He predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will…In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will.” Many people have a strong hostility to the doctrine of predestination. However, predestination is a biblical doctrine. The key is understanding what predestination means, biblically.

The words translated “predestined” in the Scriptures referenced above are from the Greek word proorizo, which carries the meaning of “determine beforehand,” “ordain,” “to decide upon ahead of time.” So, predestination is God determining certain things to occur ahead of time. What did God determine ahead of time? According to Romans 8:29-30, God predetermined that certain individuals would be conformed to the likeness of His Son, be called, justified, and glorified. Essentially, God predetermines that certain individuals will be saved. Numerous scriptures refer to believers in Christ being chosen (Matthew 24:22, 31; Mark 13:20, 27; Romans 8:33, 9:11, 11:5-7, 28; Ephesians 1:11; Colossians 3:12; 1 Thessalonians 1:4; 1 Timothy 5:21; 2 Timothy 2:10; Titus 1:1; 1 Peter 1:1-2, 2:9; 2 Peter 1:10). Predestination is the biblical doctrine that God in His sovereignty chooses certain individuals to be saved.

The most common objection to the doctrine of predestination is that it is unfair. Why would God choose certain individuals and not others? The important thing to remember is that no one deserves to be saved. We have all sinned (Romans 3:23), and are all worthy of eternal punishment (Romans 6:23). As a result, God would be perfectly just in allowing all of us to spend eternity in hell. However, God chooses to save some of us. He is not being unfair to those who are not chosen, because they are receiving what they deserve. God’s choosing to be gracious to some is not unfair to the others. No one deserves anything from God; therefore, no one can object if he does not receive anything from God. An illustration would be a man randomly handing out money to five people in a crowd of twenty. Would the fifteen people who did not receive money be upset? Probably so. Do they have a right to be upset? No, they do not. Why? Because the man did not owe anyone money. He simply decided to be gracious to some.

If God is choosing who is saved, doesn’t that undermine our free will to choose and believe in Christ? The Bible says that we have the choice—all who believe in Jesus Christ will be saved (John 3:16; Romans 10:9-10). The Bible never describes God rejecting anyone who believes in Him or turning away anyone who is seeking Him (Deuteronomy 4:29). Somehow, in the mystery of God, predestination works hand-in-hand with a person being drawn by God (John 6:44) and believing unto salvation (Romans 1:16). God predestines who will be saved, and we must choose Christ in order to be saved. Both facts are equally true. Romans 11:33 proclaims, “Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond
* My question is what do you all believe?

John Kissinger [08/22/2015 10:53 AM]
Predestination to WHAT?

Timothy D McCune [08/22/2015 2:35 PM]
Salvation

David Lavoie [08/22/2015 2:55 PM]
HOLD ON! 🙂 … What “if” We Veiw the statement “through Jesus Christ” as the idicative part of eph.vs. 5 and Us as Gentile And Jews. AFOREHAND. Now Wait a Minute,.. WITH the Sentence structure “could” that work?

And
“if” So, ..
Then ..
Perhaps All The Warngs _xhortations And parables Could be seen as MORE THAN JUST FOR…
Since
his Forknowledge precedes our Responce To His Drawing.
And Predestining, At Least in Rom.

Timothy D McCune [08/22/2015 2:59 PM]
David Lavoie I don’t understand your post, please elaborate.

David Lavoie [08/22/2015 3:36 PM]
“IF” we look at Paul and his life’s work of explaining The Mystery of Christ ( The Summation of Humanity in Him) to both Jew And Gentile alike Could it make since That The “Us” He speaks of in Eph.1:5 is Jew And Gentile, And Through JESUS CHRIST As The Forordained Method of GOD’S Adoption?
WORK ON IT A LITTLE, It’s just a Different Lens.

Timothy D McCune [08/22/2015 3:54 PM]
I believe we are the “us” the Gentiles that Paul talks about.

David Lavoie [08/22/2015 4:02 PM]
All gentiles, and All Jews, AND THE predestining was “Through” Jesus Christ ..
🙂

John Kissinger [08/22/2015 4:07 PM]
Timothy D McCune the text does not say “salvation” BUT “predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son”

Jessica Michelle [08/22/2015 4:19 PM]

John Kissinger [08/22/2015 4:26 PM]
yeah, we should stop preaching from the dictionary and start preaching from the BIBLE “predestined to be conformed’ sure sounds like something that happens to saved people only. Unsaved cannot and do not get conformed to the likeness of the Son

Timothy D McCune [08/22/2015 7:22 PM]
Thanks , however I’m wondering if people here believe that Christians were predestined to be saved.

David Lavoie [08/22/2015 7:52 PM]
I Think All people Were Ceptin Those Few He’s hardened
His Word has many Refrences To His Glory being seen and understood, About His Love For All, About His Sacrifice For All.
Jesus Even Said That He did’nt Come To Condemn.

David Lavoie [08/22/2015 8:15 PM]
But God does Work Aforehand and probably knows Everything. 🙂 ..
So, It says people are condemned for loving Darkness Rather Than Light. John 3
I don’t Know How God could presuppose To Do something with Me And Then Do it. BUT he Does.
Never just MAKES IT HAPPEN, BUT WORKS TOWARDS MY OBEDIENCE, INTIMATLY, KNOWING EVERYTHING.
Man Must Choose.
Men And Brethren, What Must We Do?
Repent, and Be Baptised in The Name of Jesus Christ for the Remission of Sins, And You shall Recieve The Gift of The Holy Spirit.
For This PROMICE Is To You And to Your Children And to All Who are Afar off, As many as The Lord our God Shall Call.
He Calls,.. TRUE… But we are taught Encouraged and Exhorted to respond. ACTS 2:37&38
And with many other words He kept on exhorting Them. (Acts2.40) EXHORTATION IS A PERSUASIVE AND EMPASSIONED, Savory Plea to The will.
of Course God knows,.Ahead of Time,… 🙂
That’s Why He Equips and Sends.

Timothy D McCune [08/22/2015 8:18 PM]
I appreciate your response David Lavoie it’s great talking to a Brother on the other side of the world.

David Lavoie [08/22/2015 8:22 PM]
?

Timothy D McCune [08/22/2015 8:24 PM]
I’m in America your in Bulgaria , right? And your a Christian , right?

David Lavoie [08/22/2015 8:26 PM]
nah, I’m from The Dalles.
But I’m def. A Christian. :7

David Lavoie [08/22/2015 8:30 PM]
CHEMECITA’S JUST OFF I5. and I worked At the T.C. THRIFT STORE THEIR ON Portland Rd.

Timothy D McCune [08/22/2015 9:43 PM]
Oh sorry I must off seen that on someone’s profile and got them mixed up.

John Kissinger [08/22/2015 10:52 PM]
In general, Pentecostal / Charismatics are Wesleyan / Arminian believe in free will. Hence, they do not consider to be chosen-frozen as people are able to fall off and backslide from the faith. Furthermore, it has been pointed out in previous discussions in the group that Calvinistic systems are mostly incompatible with classic Pentecostal pneumatology, sotirology, eschatology and even christology http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/why-am-i-not-a-calvinist/

David Lavoie [08/22/2015 11:09 PM]
Both of Their Thinkin Can Go To Far.
Sola Scriptura And Norm Nomative Normata.
The Bible is the only Work That Norms itself.

John Kissinger [08/23/2015 4:11 PM]
Rom.8 predestined to be conformed Ephesians 1 predestined us to be adopted – nothing about predestined for salvation in these texts

90 Comments

  • Reply October 26, 2016

    Varnel Watson

    PREDESTINATION for WHAT? Ryan Neil Rutan brought some good calvinistic answers but since this is not a calvinistic group and most if not all are arminian lets look at the actual biblical references which Ryan Neil Rutan used in his brief expose on the topix

    Romans 8:29-30 tells us, “For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son

    Does Romans say predestined to be saved? Of course not – it specifically states what the predestination is for “predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son” i.e. anyone who elects to receive salvation by his/her own God given free will is predestened to be supernaturally ” conformed to the likeness of his Son”

    Then again we have Ephesians 1:5 and 11 declaring, “He predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will…In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will.”

    Looking at the Biblical text again “predestined us to be adopted ” – lets assume us here means the Romans + Paul i.e. gentiles and Jews. The Ephesian predestination is simply “predestined us to be adopted ” i.e. anyone who elects to receive salvation by his/her own God given free will is predestened to be supernaturally adopted into the family of God

    So who can give us a Bible verse that states predestined to be SAVED. Well, frankly no one because there’s no Bible for that Charles Page Ricky Grimsley Henry Volk

    • Reply October 26, 2016

      Ricky Grimsley

      Romans 8:29-30 KJVS
      [29] For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. [30] Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

  • Reply October 26, 2016

    Henry Volk

    While I’m an Arminian, I believe we can’t discount predestination. St. Paul clearly speaks of it. However, we cannot go with the Calvinists and believe that God predestines people unto reprobation.

  • Reply October 26, 2016

    Varnel Watson

    predestination but for what? open theism? Ricky Grimsley

  • Reply October 26, 2016

    Henry Volk

    Salvation

  • Reply October 26, 2016

    Charlie Robin

    You got Bible for that?

  • Reply October 26, 2016

    Charles Page

    everybody got Bible for all that they say!!!

  • Reply October 26, 2016

    Varnel Watson

    I for one very strongly doubt that

  • Reply October 26, 2016

    Charles Page

    Troy, I doubt that you have Bible to support your theories!

  • Reply October 26, 2016

    Charles Page

    or does the word come out from you only? 😉

  • Reply October 26, 2016

    Varnel Watson

    I have a Dake Bible you sold on ebay but thats beyond the point. What is your Scripture for “predestined for salvation” ???

  • Reply October 26, 2016

    Charles Page

    Rm 8:30

    • Reply October 26, 2016

      Charlie Robin

      This was explained above. How do you see salvation in that?

  • Reply October 26, 2016

    Henry Volk

    I’m gonna settle this thing once and for all! http://biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/eq/2004-4_311.pdf

  • Reply October 26, 2016

    Charlie Robin

    The link cannot open. Give us the brief version

  • Reply October 26, 2016

    Varnel Watson

    It’s one of Barth’s essays on the LOVE of God with with Barth escapes talking about predestination and that God has created a part of the creation only to be doomed. The early Barth escapes the predestination election in the intro to his Romans commentary. The later Barth is simply universalist though never proclaiming it publicly. Both early and older Barth say we should focus on the love of God and not on his punishment of sin. Except, the Bible still talk about people who will be eternally punished. So the only way Barth can escape that is via universal salvation for the whole creation – a most certainly not a Pentecostal doctrine. Pentecostals dont believe in purgatory and dont believe all will be saved and raptured. So NO to Barth

  • Reply October 27, 2016

    Henry Volk

    Barth said it, I believe it, that settles it! ??

  • Reply October 27, 2016

    Charlie Robin

    Yeah not so fast. Was Barth Pentecostal – No! Was barth universalist – Yes…

  • Reply October 27, 2016

    Henry Volk

    Well technically Barth was Reformed—although not according to the Confessionalists. However, I disagree. Barth proposed that since God is totally free, universal salvation was possible. But he only proposed it as a possibility.

  • Reply October 27, 2016

    Charlie Robin

    Sure he was. For Barth, God’s eternal decree to be God-for-us and the corresponding decision to elect Christ to become one with humanity means that all human persons are elect-in-Christ. Jesus remains the only true Elect of God since “all who are elected are elected in Him” (CD II/2, 421). But “all who are elected” includes all human persons. Thus, we cannot regard non-Christians “as if they were not elect” (CD II/2, 416). But should approach every person with the assurance that “he, too, is an elect man” (CD II/2, 318). There is no limit to God’s gracious decision to be God-for-us.

    Barth does have a doctrine of reprobation (i.e. the idea that God has in some sense “elected” people for damnation as well as salvation), but for him even this eternal decree finds its true object in Jesus Christ. Jesus took our reprobation upon himself so that he is both the truly Elect and the truly Rejected one (CD II/2, 353).

    All humans without exception, then, are included in the sphere of the elect. We are all elect-in-Christ. Or given Barth’s construal of God’s freedom (capriciousness?) maybe we all end up in hell anyway?

  • Reply October 27, 2016

    Charles Page

    How can anyone who believes that God elects anyone to eternal dam nation be taken seriously?

  • Reply October 27, 2016

    Charlie Robin

    Henry Volk When you combine Barth’s doctrine of election–God eternally decided to be God-for-us in Jesus Christ and to unite all humans to himself through him–and his doctrine of the atonement–God atoned for the sins of all people through Jesus’s sacrifice on the cross, it becomes pretty easy to see why people think that Barth was a universalist. How could it possibly be otherwise? How can any human person fail to be saved given God’s eternal decree and the power of the cross? So people conclude that if he looks like a universalist, talks like a universalist, and quacks like a universalist, he’s probably a universalist. Even if he claims to be a duck.

  • Reply October 27, 2016

    Henry Volk

    Because the object of election is Christ and not the individual person.

  • Reply October 27, 2016

    Henry Volk

    “First, if this is not the case, it can only be a matter of the unexpected work of grace and its revelation on which we cannot count but for which we can only hope as an undeserved and inconceivable overflowing of the significant, operation and outreach of the reality of God and man in Jesus Christ. To the man who persistently tries to change the truth into untruth, God does not owe eternal patience and therefore deliverance any more than He does those provisional manifestations. We should be denying or disarming that evil attempt and our own participation in it if, in relation to ourselves or others or all men, we were to permit ourselves to postulate a withdrawal of that threat and in this sense to expect or maintain an apokatastasis or universal reconciliation as the goal and end of all things. No such postulate can be made even though we appeal to the cross and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Even though theological consistency might seem to lead our thoughts and utterances most clearly in this direction, we must not arrogate to ourselves that which can be given and received only as a free gift.

    Secondly, there is no good reason why we should forbid ourselves, or be forbidden, openness to the possibility that in the reality of God and man in Jesus Christ there is contained much more than we might expect and therefore the supremely unexpected withdrawal of that final threat, i.e., that in the truth of this reality there might be contained the superabundant promise of the final deliverance of all men. To be more explicit, there is no good reason why we should not be open to this possibility. If for a moment we accept the unfalsified truth of the reality which even now so forcefully limits the perverted human situation, does it not point plainly in the direction of the work of a truly eternal divine patience and deliverance and therefore of an apokatastasis or universal reconciliation? If we are certainly forbidden to count on this as though we had a claim to it, as though it were not supremely the work of God to which man can have no possible claim, we are surely commanded the more definitely to hope and pray for it as we may do already on this side of this final possibility, i.e., to hope and pray cautiously and yet distinctly that, in spite of everything which may seem quite conclusively to proclaim the opposite, His compassion should not fail, and that in accordance with His mercy which is “new every morning” He “will not cast off for ever” (Lam 3:22f,31).” CD IV.3.1.

  • Reply October 27, 2016

    Charlie Robin

    Hey Henry Volk hell was created for somebody after all, right 🙂

  • Reply October 27, 2016

    Henry Volk

    The devil and his angels. ?

  • Reply October 27, 2016

    Varnel Watson

    as well as Matthew 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

  • Reply October 27, 2016

    Charles Page

    My speculation is that the lake of fire was created for the devil, his angels and the bloodline of the fallen sons of God and the daughters of men.

  • Reply October 27, 2016

    Ricky Grimsley

    The bible says plainly that the lake of fire was created for the devil and his angels. The real question is when did God create the lake of fire.

    • Reply October 27, 2016

      Varnel Watson

      No Sir No sir Please read your Bible very carefully – Matthew 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. – WHO are the cursed in Mt. 25?

    • Reply October 27, 2016

      Ricky Grimsley

      Are you saying that the text does not say the fire was created for the devil and his angels? Obviously we can choose to follow them there but it wasnt created for us.

    • Reply October 27, 2016

      Varnel Watson

      devil and his angels but NOT only – also for Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life (Revelation 20:15 )

    • Reply October 27, 2016

      Ricky Grimsley

      Yes humans can go there but the text says for the devil and his angels. Doesn’t say evil doers.

    • Reply October 27, 2016

      Ricky Grimsley

      We were added later.

  • Reply October 27, 2016

    Charles Page

    on the third day of creation

  • Reply October 27, 2016

    Varnel Watson

    Ricky Grimsley Jude 1:7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding … … They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire

  • Reply October 27, 2016

    Varnel Watson

    Ricky Grimsley Matthew 18:8 If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut …… away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled

  • Reply October 27, 2016

    Varnel Watson

    Ricky Grimsley Revelation 20:15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire. Charles Page Henry Volk There’s a GOD walking round taking names… David Lewayne Porter

  • Reply October 27, 2016

    Charles Page

    You have to discern the difference between hell (hades/sheol) and the lake of fire.

    • Reply October 27, 2016

      Varnel Watson

      Please discern it for us since you’ve got such in depth personal experience knowledge on the subject

    • Reply October 27, 2016

      Charles Page

      In a vision I saw Adrian Rogers in the pain of hell. I have not found anything from the scriptures contradictory to that.

    • Reply October 27, 2016

      Charles Page

      very few of us will escape the pains of hell at death.

  • Reply October 27, 2016

    Varnel Watson

    I refer you to the Red Back Hymnal that says it right

    They who are wicked, into hell
    Shall driven be with shame;
    And all the nations that forget
    The Lord’s most holy name.

    http://www.cgmusic.org/workshop/presby1887/psalm_9.htm

    • Reply October 27, 2016

      Charles Page

      This is a Presbyterian Psalter from 1897!!!

    • Reply October 27, 2016

      Charles Page

      Aramaic Bible in Plain English
      The wicked shall turn back to Sheol, and all the peoples that forget God

  • Reply October 27, 2016

    Ricky Grimsley

    Im not saying people wont go to the lake of fire, but the bible says it was created for angels. It wasnt originally in Gods plan for man to go there.

  • Reply October 27, 2016

    Ricky Grimsley

    Or angels either

  • Reply October 27, 2016

    Charlie Robin

    The Confession of Faith:
    Which Was Submitted to His Imperial Majesty Charles V
    At the Diet of Augsburg in the Year 1530
    by Philip Melancthon (1497-1560)

    Article XVIII – – – Of Free Will

    Of Free Will they teach that man’s will has some liberty to choose civil righteousness, and to work things subject to reason. But it has no power, without the Holy Ghost, to work the righteousness of God, that is, spiritual righteousness; since the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God, 1 Cor. 2,14; but this righteousness is wrought in the heart when the Holy Ghost is received through the Word. These things are said in as many words by Augustine in his Hypognosticon, Book III: We grant that all men have a free will, free, inasmuch as it has the judgment of reason; not that it is thereby capable, without God, either to begin, or, at least, to complete aught in things pertaining to God, but only in works of this life, whether good or evil. “Good” I call those works which spring from the good in nature, such as, willing to labor in the field, to eat and drink, to have a friend, to clothe oneself, to build a house, to marry a wife, to raise cattle, to learn divers useful arts, or whatsoever good pertains to this life. For all of these things are not without dependence on the providence of God; yea, of Him and through Him they are and have their being. “Evil” I call such works as willing to worship an idol, to commit murder, etc.

    http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/concord/web/augs-018.html

  • Reply October 27, 2016

    Henry Volk

    Uh oh! Charlie Robinpulling out that Augsburg Confession—a truly incredible document by the way!

  • Reply October 27, 2016

    Henry Volk

    That position is not too different from the classical Arminian position. The difference being that Arminians state that previent grace allows us to chose Christ when the Holy Spirit converts is by the Word, the Lutherans believe that the Holy Spirit converts people through the Word somewhat instantaneously.

  • Reply October 27, 2016

    Charles Page

    Isn’t that the distinction between Pelagianism and semi-pelagianism?

    • Reply October 27, 2016

      Henry Volk

      No, Pelagianism is we can be saved entirely by own efforts apart from grace. Semi-Pelagianism is we turn to God apart from divine grace and then God grants us salvation.

  • Reply October 27, 2016

    Ricky Grimsley

    Looks like its sola gratia.
    Philippians 2:13 KJVS
    [13] For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

  • Reply October 28, 2016

    Walter Polasik

    Question: How many people (ultimately) will receive salvation and how many will not? So, in God’s perfect plan for the universe and the humans he created, how many will be rescued from the effects of the Fall and live a perfect fulfilled life with God post-moratally and how many will NOT? In other words, how many people, of all that God had created to ever live, will spend all eternity burning in hell? You do the math. Quite a big number, huh? Now throw in predestination into that equation. If more people wind up suffering forever than wind up being saved, how great is this plan?

  • Reply October 28, 2016

    Ricky Grimsley

    Well ask God. It’s his plan and it works out the way he wants in the end.

  • Reply October 28, 2016

    Walter Polasik

    Ricky Grimsley: What a spiffing reply. Yes, ask God, and He’ll send Gabriel right over to answer my question? Maybe Benny Hinn will have a “word”? And as to the plan, hey, as long as it’s not YOU that’s roasting for eternity…..it’s all good huh?

  • Reply July 4, 2017

    Varnel Watson

    Of course NOT

  • Reply January 13, 2019

    Louise Cummings

    No.

  • Reply January 14, 2019

    Robert Erwine

    when predestination is used in the bible its talking about the Jews and not the philosophical greco-roman idea of the concept .

  • Reply January 14, 2019

    Terry Wiles

    Robert Erwine A lot of people who believe that could save money by only buying a New Testament. Less carry weight also.

  • Reply January 14, 2019

    Dustin Wilcox

    My current stance is to disagree with this article.

    God has made the opportunity available with a pre-determined plan to make salvation available to men.

    However, I can recall 3 places the Bible says that God does not use favoritism, meaning that God has made the opportunity equal to Jews and Gentiles alike. This would have to apply to individuals as well.

  • Reply January 14, 2019

    Louise Cummings

    The Bible says God has no respect of persons. Doesn’t it.

    • Reply January 14, 2019

      Dustin Wilcox

      Yes, according to both Peter and Paul.

      I think some people find some strange sense of comfort in taking the predestination idea too far.

  • Reply January 16, 2019

    Rob White

    John 15:16 English Standard Version (ESV)
    16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.

    God chooses us, and the people that he chooses will abide in him.

  • Reply January 16, 2019

    Varnel Watson

    how do you explain this? Rob White

    • Reply January 16, 2019

      Rob White

      Well, just like the text says really. That we do not choose God, he chooses us. The people that are chosen will abide in him and bear fruit.

    • Reply January 16, 2019

      Rob White

      John 6:44 would be another verse that plainly says that no one can come to God unless drawn.

    • Reply January 16, 2019

      Rob White

      Also, John 6:65 talks about no one coming to Jesus unless the are enabled by the Father.

    • Reply January 16, 2019

      Varnel Watson

      but that is not what 6:44 even say – wouldnt you agree? The adjective with purpose being the differential

    • Reply January 16, 2019

      Rob White

      John 6:43-45 English Standard Version (ESV)
      43 Jesus answered them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me—

    • Reply January 16, 2019

      Rob White

      How else do you read it?

    • Reply January 16, 2019

      Dustin Wilcox

      As far as John 6, Jesus seems to be saying that salvation is through Himself, as opposed to what the grumblers though. Especially when you include v65 into that context.

    • Reply January 16, 2019

      Dustin Wilcox

      As for John 16, I would argue that the context is about God’s love calling people into himself, for “the goodness of God that leads you to repentance.”

      God does not show favoritism, so He calls everyone into Himself, possibly at different times in their lives.

    • Reply January 16, 2019

      Dustin Wilcox

      And I’d think one would have to interpret the seeming contradicting passage in context of the greater Biblical message.

  • Reply January 16, 2019

    Louise Cummings

    God chases us. It is us that doesn’t choose Him.

  • Reply January 16, 2019

    Robert Erwine

    thats twisted , so God then creates people that are damned from the start ? cold .

  • Reply January 16, 2019

    Varnel Watson

    Rob White I honestly dont think Jesus is saying in John 6 what you are implying

    • Reply January 16, 2019

      Dustin Wilcox

      I agree John 6 can just be read in context, but Rob’s verse from Ch 16 is harder to work out, I posted my thoughts above, what do you think Troy?

    • Reply January 16, 2019

      Varnel Watson

      I did not see it – can you repost the ch 16 comment pls As far as John 6 there is a dative purpose in the terminology Jesus uses that does not and should not be implied to predestined for salvation I have seen Calvinists use the same logic for Jn 3/16 but it is just not there in the text #sorry

    • Reply January 16, 2019

      Dustin Wilcox

      Troy Day As for John 15:16, I would argue that the preceding verses are about God’s love calling people into himself. After all, it is “the goodness of God that leads you to repentance.”
      Also the preceding verses mention obedience in love.

      Essentially, I would say that God invites us all into himself, at least at some point in our lives.

    • Reply January 16, 2019

      Dustin Wilcox

      Troy Day and I see what you mean by the dative.

    • Reply January 16, 2019

      Varnel Watson

      lots of jumping to ch 15 and ch 16 I was under the impression we were still with John 6 predestination

    • Reply January 16, 2019

      Dustin Wilcox

      Troy Day my fault, I mistyped 16 a couple posts ago.
      But Rob brought up John 15:16, which I felt was more supportive of the article topic than John 6 is. So I felt the need to look into it deeper.

    • Reply January 16, 2019

      Varnel Watson

      back to ch 6 now ? – what was the drawing for?

    • Reply January 16, 2019

      Dustin Wilcox

      For John 6:44, the drawing is revelation from God, just like Peter’s revelation of Jesus’ identity as Christ. The doubters in v41 were not drawing from the Spirit. Verse 45 further explains that God provides the knowledge.

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