Click to join the conversation with over 500,000 Pentecostal believers and scholars
Click to get our FREE MOBILE APP and stay connected
Postlewait Kathleen | PentecostalTheology.com
HOW MANY USED TO BELIEVE IN A PRETRIBULATION RAPTURE BUT HAVE CHANGED YOUR MIND OR
ARE NO LONGER SURE?
Trudy Mahaboob
I knpw who i am in christ
Trudy Mahaboob
A kingdom divided will not stand we should not be devided
Trudy Mahaboob
My oil overflows
Trudy Mahaboob
Amen praise the lord
Diane Sands
The Bible is clear it’s before the trib.
Ras Bayles
Anyone that believes in a pre trib is allowing yourself to be lied to. And you will find out this year based on the timeline Jesus gives.
Jimmy Langley
Tim LaHaye Books on Left behind has cause many to believe, The first time I hear it was 52 years ago, And I believe it for a year or two, Then I started to study to see how the people in the trib make it two heaven Which change my thinking.
Gideon Benjamin
The scriptures is clear. There is no pre-tribulation…
Only the ones that miss his second coming will face the tribulation and will pay with their blood…
Hannetjie Pretorius Smit
The problem is that people confuse the tribulation and God’s wrath. Tribulation is what we are going to experience, but the wrath that God is going to poor unto the antichrist and the ungodly, we will escape.
Wendo Kumalakani Maurice
Revelation chapter 8 is all about the seventh seal and the golden censer, and the seal includes an earthquake, hail of fire mixed with blood that were thrown upon the earth.
The whole of this chapter is about the judgments on all those remaining behind after the rapture and bare the mark of the beast. (Revelation 8:1-13)
Gideon Benjamin
The church has no business after Revelation 3…
Josey Miller
after we will heard dead people all over the globe, arose. It can be at the middle becoz, He said that He will not let His saints suffer. We can be caught in the tribulation, but still, we are protected. Until the Holy Spirit is not lifted up, we always have the chance. We may experience a little hardship, but He is always there for help. Our faith should stand firm.
Faith Lee
The Bible has spoken ..
Jesus Christ is coming immediately after tribulation!
Beware! Anyone who teaches against it .. is the false prophet & false teacher!
“Immediately #after #the #tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened , and the moon will not provide its light , and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
And at that time the sign of the #Son of Man [coming in His glory] will #appear in the #sky, and then all the tribes of the earth [and especially Israel] will mourn [regretting their rebellion and rejection of the Messiah], and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory [in brilliance and splendor].
Matthew 24:29-30 AMP
Corrie Terblans
Nonsense The Rapture first The Scripture In Matthew is the second coming Totally different
Wendo Kumalakani Maurice
The second coming is to make war against HIS enemies and to destroy them, before He starts his reign on earth
Cheri Evans
G5278 – hypomenō
ὑπομένω
to remain
to tarry behind
to remain i.e. abide, not recede or flee
to persevere: under misfortunes and trials to hold fast to one’s faith in Christ
to endure, bear bravely and calmly: ill treatments G5083 tēréō (from tēros, “a guard”) – properly, maintain (preserve); (figuratively) spiritually guard (watch), keep intact.
But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them
>which are asleep,< that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also >which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him. < For this we say unto you by the word of The Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain [G4035] unto the Coming [G3952] of The Lord shall not prevent,(preceed), them which are asleep. For The Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with >a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: < Then we which are alive [and] remain [G4035] shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet The Lord in the air:.(changed), and so shall we ever be with The Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Cheri Evans
G4035. perileipomai: to be left remaining
Original Word: περιλείπω
Phonetic Spelling: (per-ee-li’-po)
Short Definition: I leave behind
Definition: I leave behind; pass: I am left behind, remain, survive.
Word Origin
from peri and leipó
Definition
to be left remaining
Cheri Evans
3952 the presence of one coming, hence, the coming, arrival, advenxt,: 2 Corinthians 7:6; 2 Thessalonians 2:9 of a return, Philippians 1:26.
In the N. T. especially of the advent, i. e. the future, visible, return from heaven of Jesus, the Messiah, to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and gloriously the kingdom of God: Matthew 24:3;(27), 37, 39;
1 Thessalonians 3:13; 1 Thessalonians 4:15; 1 Thessalonians 5:23; 2 Thessalonians 2:1; James 5:7; 2 Peter 3:4; 2 Peter 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:23;
(1 Thessalonians 2:19); 2 Thessalonians 2:8
Diane Sands
People will perish for a lack of knowledge
Cheri Evans
Diane Sands blocking me posting Scriptures with definitions does not make what you believe fact. The scripture show you’re in error and you can’t handle it
Wendo Kumalakani Maurice
Scriptures must be interpreted and they are the last authority and not from any other opinionated source.
Cheri Evans
That’s exactly the point. The only way to come up with a pre-tribulation rapture is to take scriptures out of context, add to them take away from them and put in much conjecture. It contradicts Christ to add to his words as well
Cheri Evans
Wheat or tare ?Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together FIRST the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and His disciples came unto Him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. He Answered and Said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
*The field is the world;
*the good seed are the children of the kingdom;
*but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil;
*the harvest is the end of the world;
*and the reapers are the angels.
As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather OUT of His kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
THEN shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the Kingdom of their Father.
Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Cheri Evans
The Order of Resurrection
But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order:
Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at His Coming. Then cometh the end, when He shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even The Father; when He shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign, till He hath put all enemies under His feet.
The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For He hath put all things under His feet. But when He Saith, all things are put under Him, it is manifest that He is excepted, which did put all things under Him. And when all things shall be subdued unto Him, then shall the Son also Himself be subject unto Him that put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead? And why stand we in jeopardy every hour? I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die. Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners. Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.
The Resurrection Body
But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased Him, and to every seed his own body.
All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. There are also Celestial bodies, and bodies Terrestrial: but the glory of the Celestial is one, and the glory of the Terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the LAST Trump: for the Trumpet shall sound,
and the dead shall be raised incorruptible,
and we shall be changed.
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of The Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in The Lord.
Wendo Kumalakani Maurice
There is nothing like contradicting Christ here, but we are dealing with systematic theology here on Eschatology which is about; Past, present and future prophecies, of which every believer must know them in sequence and not just anyhow as such
Cheri Evans
Well when someone like Perry Stone comes along and tries to say that the righteous church is barley not wheat or tare that’s adding to Christ words. It is contradicting Christ who said he foretold us all things
Cheri Evans
Wheat or tare, kingdom of God or kingdom of Satan. There is no middle ground near
Wendo Kumalakani Maurice
According to your reasoning, which is just a personal opinion
Cheri Evans
Scripture
Wendo Kumalakani Maurice
Remember Iron sharpens iron, so you have much to learn even from other theologian scholars as well
Wendo Kumalakani Maurice
Those who know the truth shall be set free by the same truth
Cheri Evans
Tribulation is Not wrath:
G3986 – peirasmos πειρασμός
1) an experiment, attempt, trial, proving
a) trial, proving: the trial made of you by my bodily condition, since condition served as to test the love of the Galatians toward Paul (Gal. 4:14)
b) the trial of man’s fidelity, integrity, virtue, constancy
1) an enticement to sin, temptation, whether arising from the desires or from the outward circumstances
2) an internal temptation to sin
a) of the temptation by which the devil sought to divert Jesus the Messiah from his divine errand
3) of the condition of things, or a mental state, by which we are enticed to sin, or to a lapse from the faith and holiness
4) adversity, affliction, trouble: sent by God and serving to test or prove one’s character, faith, holiness
c) temptation (i.e. trial) of God by men
1) rebellion against God, by which his power and justice are, as it were, put to the proof and challenged to show themselves.
– peirazō πειράζω
1) to try whether a thing can be done
a) to attempt, endeavour
2) to try, make trial of, test: for the purpose of ascertaining his quantity, or what he thinks, or how he will behave himself
a) in a good sense
b) in a bad sense, to test one maliciously, craftily to put to the proof his feelings or judgments
c) to try or test one’s faith, virtue, character, by enticement to sin
1) to solicit to sin, to tempt
a) of the temptations of the devil
d) after the OT usage
1) of God: to inflict evils upon one in order to prove his character and the steadfastness of his faith
2) men are said to tempt God by exhibitions of distrust, as though they wished to try whether he is not justly distrusted
3) by impious or wicked conduct to test God’s justice and patience, and to challenge him, as it were to give proof of his perfections.
1) a trial, experience, attempt
2) to attempt a thing, to make trial of a thing or of a person
3) to have a trial of a thing
4) to experience, learn to know by experience.
– hypomonē
1) steadfastness, constancy, endurance
a) in the NT the characteristic of a man who is not swerved from his deliberate purpose and his loyalty to faith and piety by even the greatest trials and sufferings
b) patiently, and steadfastly
2) a patient, steadfast waiting for
3) a patient enduring, sustaining, perseverance
from:
G5278 – hypomenō
1) to remain
a) to tarry behind
2) to remain i.e. abide, not recede or flee
a) to preserve: under misfortunes and trials to hold fast to one’s faith in Christ
b) to endure, bear bravely and calmly: ill treatments.
Tribulation=
G2347 – thlipsis θλῖψις
Transliteration
thlipsis
Pronunciation
thlē’-psēs (Key)
Part of Speech
feminine noun
Root Word (Etymology)
From θλίβω (G2346)
Outline of Biblical Usage 1) a pressing, pressing together, pressure
2) metaph. oppression, affliction, tribulation, distress, straits
G2346 – thlibō θλίβω
Transliteration
thlibō
Pronunciation
thlē’-bō (Key)
Part of Speech
verb
Root Word (Etymology)
Akin to the base of τρίβος (G5147)
Outline of Biblical Usage 1) to press (as grapes), press hard upon
2) a compressed way
a) narrow straitened, contracted
3) metaph. to trouble, afflict, distress
G5147 – tribos τρίβος
Transliteration
tribos
Pronunciation
trē’-bos (Key)
Part of Speech
feminine noun
Root Word (Etymology)
From tribo (to “rub”, akin to teiro, truo, and the base of τράγος (G5131), τραῦμα (G5134))
Outline of Biblical Usage 1) a worn way, a path
WRATH=
G3709 – orgē ὀργή
Transliteration
orgē
Pronunciation
or-gā’ (Key)
Part of Speech
feminine noun
Root Word (Etymology)
From ὀρέγω (G3713)
Outline of Biblical Usage
1) anger, the natural disposition, temper, character
2) movement or agitation of the soul, impulse, desire, any violent emotion, but esp. anger
3) anger, wrath, indignation
4) anger exhibited in punishment, hence used for punishment itself
a) of punishments inflicted by magistrates
G3713 – oregō ὀρέγω
Transliteration
oregō
Pronunciation
o-re’-gō (Key)
Part of Speech
verb
Root Word (Etymology)
Middle voice of apparently a prolonged form of an obsolete primary [cf ὄρος (G3735)]
Outline of Biblical Usage
1) to stretch one’s self out in order to touch or to grasp something, to reach after or desire something
2) to give one’s self up to the love of money
Marilyn Wilkins
It was being sold in my church yet it never worked with The Word or all the visions and dictations The Father & The Son have given us since then. So I had a foot in each side for a short time, yet no longer.
Tony Crews
Remember the foolish servant who buried his talon
Just saying
Craig Theisen
After learning from God’s Word and His Holy Spirit that the pre-trib teaching that I believed was a lie. God told me in 2008 to get a computer , then I found facebook and started teaching a Post-trib / Pre-Wrath resurrection / rapture. After getting kicked out of many pre-trib , post-trib and pre-wrath groups , I started this group in 2014 , that welcomes all views . But shows the Truth , with God’s Word <3
Craig Theisen
2Th 2:1
¶
Now we beseech you, brethren, by “the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ”, and by “our gathering together unto him”,
2Th 2:2
That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that “the day of Christ” is at hand.
2Th 2:3
Let no man “deceive you” by any means: for “that day shall not come”, except there come a falling away first, and that “man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition”;
2Th 2:4
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that “he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God”.
Craig Theisen
We are resurrected / raptured after the man of sin on the day of the Lord <3
Craig Theisen
So what is the sign of “the day of the Lord” ?
Craig Theisen
Joel 2:31
The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
Craig Theisen
The “great” part is the resurrection / rapture , the “terrible” part is God’s Wrath :O
Richard Suarez
Maybe the Wrath is the good part. It will be good to see who is left after the wicked are destroyed. I hope I am one of them.
Gary Garland
I definitely do not believe in a pre-trib rapture. Matthew 24 plainly shows the sequence of how things happen, and the trumpet sound and the gathering together from all over the world/rapture is the last thing that happens.
Faith Lee
“Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves.
Therefore be wise as serpents and harmless as doves.
But beware of men, for they will deliver you up to councils and scourge you in their synagogues.
You will be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles.
But when they deliver you up, do not worry about how or what you should speak.
For it will be given to you in that hour what you should speak; for it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you.
“Now brother will deliver up brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death.
And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake.
But he who endures to the end will be saved. When they persecute you in this city, flee to another.
For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes. “Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven.
But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven.
“Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth.
I did not come to bring peace but a sword.
For I have come to ‘set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law’; and ‘a man’s enemies will be those of his own household.’ He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.
And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me.
He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it.
Matthew 10:16-23, 32-39 NKJV
Craig Theisen
If as 1 Thessalonians 4 says the dead in Christ “rise first” we wont be raptured until the “first resurrection” :
Craig Theisen
Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw “the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands”. And they lived and reigned with Christ for “a thousand years”. 5But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is “the first resurrection”. 6Blessed and holy is he who has part in “the first resurrection”. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be “priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years”.
Craig Theisen
This “first resurrection” is clearly after the tribulation 😉
Craig Theisen
Matthew 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake. 10And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13But “he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved”. 14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Craig Theisen
We see the gospel being preached to ALL the World , just before thr “first resurrection” :
Craig Theisen
Revelation 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having “the everlasting gospel” to preach unto them that dwell on “the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people”, 7Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
Craig Theisen
But “he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved”.
Bruce McKerras
Why do people believe in a rapture?
It is taken as read, that this means a rapture removal to heaven of all Christian people, either before the Seals, during the last 7 years, or at the Return.
Unfortunately for those who would like to be outta here before anything nasty happens, there is no scriptural support for such a belief. The same applies for the mid-trib theory. But at the Return of Jesus, there will be a great lifting up and gathering of all the ‘elect, or chosen’, as Matthew 24:31 puts it and as Paul details in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.
Those who adhere to the idea of a pre wrath rapture, often cite ‘we are not appointed to wrath’. Firstly, we are told many times, that we must face trials and tests in order to prove our faith. But the real truth of how the Lord will save His people from His wrath, is by His protection. I can post 25 + verses that prove this is what is promised, not removal. Just read Psalm 23 and Psalm 91, they give amazing assurance that the Lord will protect and keep safe all who hold fast to their faith in Him.
Then there is the real truth of what God plans for His people. The story goes back to Abraham, whom God chose to be the father of a people who would be His witnesses and become the light to the nations. The ancient Israelites failed in this task and God scattered them among the nations, but with the promise of their eventual gathering and redemption. We know for the N.T., that ‘not all of Israel are true descendants of Abraham’, it is therefore, true Christian believers ‘from every tribe, nation and language’, Revelation 7:9, that now comprise the Israel of God.
People who believe in a rapture to heaven have been fooled by false teaching, just as Jesus said: Matthew 24:11, would happen and Paul says in 2 Timothy 4:3-4, that people will listen to those bad teachers and be deceived by them.
Sadly, millions have been deluded into thinking that just belief in God is enough and they need do nothing else in order to be taken directly to heaven.
But when the fiery trial comes, as 1 Peter 4:12 tells us it will, those who expected to be gone, will be shocked and terrified as the worldwide disaster of that Day, Luke 21:35, 2 Peter 3:7, strikes down the ungodly, Hebrews 10:27, Romans 1:18, and all who fail to stand firm in their faith. Matthew 24:10
Many prophesies tell how the Lord will settle His people into all of the Holy Land, where they will at last be the people He always intended. These people will prepare the world for the Millennium Kingdom of Jesus. Isaiah 66:18-21, Ezekiel 34:11-31
Then, after all that is prophesied to happen in the last days has taken place, the Lord will Return and bring all His righteous people to Jerusalem, all those who refused the mark of the beast and those from their place of safety. Revelation 12:14 The martyred saints will be resurrected at this time, Revelation 20:4, but the rest of the dead await the Great White Throne judgement at the end of the Millennium.
Ab Salamatin
Satan’s great lie, he teaches”there is no rapture” that’s what satan wants to punish, destroy followers of Christ. Me as a Bible believer, I really believed what Jesus said, i will come again and you unto my self that where i am there yea may be also
Ab Salamatin
Received you unto myself,that where i am there yae may be also.
Ab Salamatin
Satan’s LIE is that he teaches that there is NO RAPTURE. The BIBLE teaches there is PAROUSIA meaning snatching, catching up.1-Thessalonian 4:14-17.
Markus Ramchiary
at the blinking of the eyes…
every eyes will see him..
lets draw picture with all the words and see. let’s not use precepts yet.
Linda Appleton Johnson
People need to pray for DISCERNMENT
Marcell Hawke
I used to be pretrib but now I’m MIDtrib! 🙂 Im of the belief that as soon as the church recognise the Antichrist, the rapture can happen at any moment AFTER that. 🙂
Tony Crews
I still believe that the Rapture puts the anti christ in place
Adrian Marine
The rapture is after the AC comes at an unknown hour in Revelation 14:14-16.
Wendo Kumalakani Maurice
You are all speaking about the same thing in different ways –