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Hebrews 2:10 (ASV):
For it became him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the author of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
What is the meaning of perfecting Jesus through sufferings?
Isn’t He already perfect?
Aren’t sufferings of the Christ for Salvation of the Sinners, not for perfection of the Christ?
Troy Day
oh John Mushenhouse Terry Wiles do NOT expect Glynn Brown to be explaining perfection to our @followers Liberal biden-niv-lovers like him are not even saved
Philip Williams
Jesus was incarnated as a baby. As the case with our born again nature, he matured into a perfect man through the things he suffered.
George Hartwell
In America religion and politics has become divise and ungodly. Trying to label others as saved or not is more likely something like what Jesus meant by picking a speck in another’s eye when one has not dealt with the log in one’s own.
Troy Day
well John Mushenhouse given Philip Williams and Glynn Brown would probably liberally agree on the author of Hebrews
Glynn Brown
Troy Day everyone except non thinking people like yourself knows that it wasn’t Paul,since he always signed everything that he wrote. Most likely Apollos or Barnabas.
Pentecostal Theology
Glynn Brown PROVE IT ! – you got NO case
John Mushenhouse
Pentecostal Theology He needs to study the vocabulary — Very similar to Paul’s .
Glynn Brown
John Mushenhouse that’s why it’s most likely Apollos or Barnabas .
You need to study how Paul always signed his letters.
2 Thessalonians 3:17
English Standard Version
I, Paul, write this greeting with my own hand. This is the sign of genuineness in every letter of mine; it is the way I write
Glynn Brown
Pentecostal Theology I already proved it. Paul always signed his letters. Stop relying on tradition and think for yourself.
Glynn Brown
Pentecostal Theology
2 Thessalonians 3:17
English Standard Version
I, Paul, write this greeting with my own hand. This is the sign of genuineness in every letter of mine; it is the way I write.
Are you calling Paul a liar? Are you claiming that scripture is wrong?
John Mushenhouse
Glynn Brown Please for one who refuses to mention where, if anywhere, they learned textual criticism, don’t tell others to study something. Your ignorance of the Bible are only exceeded by your ego and your lack of reality. Troy Day? How do they get in here?
John Mushenhouse
Glynn Brown which came first 2 Thess or Hebrews?
Glynn Brown
John Mushenhouse please tell me what university Erasmus attended for his textual criticism.
John Mushenhouse
Glynn Brown you are avoiding answering with a question. Logical fallacy. You are so basic with your reasoning as you think all others have not heard your view before. Now please answer as your silence and lack of theological depth has already witnessed to your education and skills. Erasmus didn’t use the net.
John Mushenhouse
Glynn Brown Erasmus learned the basis for his tC when he studied Latin and Greek while in seminary. You just don’t think things through as you are only a “surface scholar” Where did you learn Latin and Greek like Erasmus.?
Glynn Brown
John Mushenhouse I’ve already answered everything. Since you avoided my question,I’ll answer it. Erasmus was largely self taught. Greek and textual criticism were in its infancy stage in Europe at the time.
You act like you’ve never heard my views before. Why do you reject your education for the ignorant traditionalist views? You’ve wasted your time and your professors time. You remind me of Dr Hill who received his doctorate but retained his kjvo ideology.
Glynn Brown
John Mushenhouse I’m pretty sure that I’ve read most of the same books that you’ve read.
Tell me which Greek text you prefer?
The TR,NA28 UBS5,majority?
John Mushenhouse
Glynn Brown again you avoid answering a simple question. The text I prefer is one that somebody will actually read. I studied at three different schools of theological persuasion. I look at the various manuscripts and variances. Now STOP PLAYING GAMES AND SAY WHERE YOU WENT TO SCHOOL.
Glynn Brown
John Mushenhouse did I ever claim that I went to a university?
Which universities did Erasmus graduate from ?
You avoided another question. Which Greek text is that?
Which English translation do you prefer?
Glynn Brown
John Mushenhouse are you afraid or ashamed to state what you believe?
Are you a CT advocate? A majority text advocate? A TR advocate? A Byzantine priority advocate?
Stop hiding and state your views.
John Mushenhouse
Glynn Brown stop your games — you just repeat others comments and think it is original. You are a parrot and like a parrot you hear words but yu have no clue to their meaning. Now go and read the bible and seek truth instead of thinking you are some type of scholar and are so insecure you have to argue what you don’t even understand.
Glynn Brown
John Mushenhouse so you’re admitting that you have rejected everything that you learned in college. Stop acting like a self righteous Pharisee. You are not even honest enough to state what your views are.
Let me demonstrate for you. I’m a CT advocate,the UBS5 . I prefer the NIV (1985 edition) and the ESV. I reject TR/kjvo as a modern heresy. I also reject Byzantine priority and the majority text as pseudo textual criticism. I accept church tradition and patristic evidence as long as it coincides with the evidence
Stop being a coward and state your viewpoint.
John Mushenhouse
Glynn Brown you are like the adolescent child with his insipid mantra “I know you are what am I ” Glynn you are boring.
Glynn Brown
John Mushenhouse it’s not a hard question.
Again,stop being a coward and state your viewpoint. You’re like a child who refuses to admit something.
John Mushenhouse
Here is the difference between attending class and reading a book. With a book you have all the info and can go back and slowly read it. That is nice, but attending in person you get interaction and socialization into the field. You can ask questions and g beyond the scope of the book. Could you imagine asking questions and having lunch with Bruce Metzer. What insights that you would get and well beyond a book. You never did tell me if you know Latin or Greek as Erasmus did. Knowing Greek is the foundation of textual criticism. That and having access to the manuscripts.
Glynn Brown
John Mushenhouse so you continue to avoid my questions.
I’ve never met a scholar who was afraid to state their views.
John Mushenhouse
Glynn Brown figure it out — I studied under Metzer lol
Glynn Brown
John Mushenhouse so did Erhman . Maurice Robinson also followed Metzger at one point.
John Mushenhouse
Glynn Brown tell the world something new.. Glynn go to Jesus for the attention you seek.
Glynn Brown
John Mushenhouse go pray for courage and wisdom.
John Mushenhouse
Glynn Brown I don’t wish to insult your maker, but you are not a very intelligent person. You lack any original thinking.
Glynn Brown
John Mushenhouse you show no critical thinking,or the ability to think for yourself. You’re an educated idiot . There’s nothing original in clinging ignorantly to tradition.
John Mushenhouse
Glynn Brown I just don’t read you ——– you come to show how clever you are and to fight — We are told in the scripture to have nothing to do with your sort.
Glynn Brown
John Mushenhouse I came here and voiced my opinions. But your cheerleader Troy immediately went on attack mode,making up lies that I’m a liberal and love the NLT. Then you act like a self righteous Pharisee ,like your word is final. You don’t represent the scholarly consensus. Most Bible scholars do not believe that Paul wrote the book of Hebrews, and most have serious doubts that the apostles wrote the Gospels. This isn’t liberal, it’s based on evidence. Metzger wasn’t a rigid fundamentalist like you. You don’t honor his memory.
Glynn Brown
John Mushenhouse you said that I need to study the vocabulary of Hebrews because it’s similar to Paul’s. But you failed to mention that there’s 150 vocabulary words used in Hebrews that aren’t used in the rest of the New Testament. And also the fact that Paul didn’t refer to Jesus as a high priest. It’s similar to Paul’s writings because it was written by one of his close companions.
For these reasons it took longer for the eastern and western churches to accept Hebrews into the canon. And even when it was accepted,it was largely understood that Hebrews was influenced by Paul,but not written by him. Unfortunately the kjv greatly influenced modern society by adding the title “The Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Hebrews”.
John Mushenhouse
Glynn Brown I refuse to read you until you take your sinful ego to the Lord.
Glynn Brown
John Mushenhouse you refuse to consider the evidence that is contrary to naive assumptions.
Metzger rejected the belief that 1 Peter and 2 Peter were written by the same author. Metzger also considered the creation account of Adam and Eve to be a myth. So you and your cheerleaders Troy and Pentecostal theologian can brand Metzger an unsaved liberal as you have me.
Glynn Brown
John Mushenhouse your ego is the one out of hand here. You have a superiority complex. With your three advanced degrees you should be writing academic books and working on translating committees, or a professor at Oxford or Cambridge.
Glynn Brown
John Mushenhouse Larry Hurtado was a well respected textual critic and biblical scholar,and a Pentecostal. He also admitted that there are credible reasons to doubt the traditional authorship of the gospels. So you and your two cheerleaders have to now brand him as an unsaved liberal as you have done to me.
You three are hypocrites and Pharisees.
Go look down your nose at someone else,because I won’t put up with it.
Glynn Brown
Troy Day for one who rejects clear evidence in favor of tradition,don’t tell anyone else to study anything.
It doesn’t look like you’ve ever read or studied the Bible. All you’ve shown is simplistic, and outdated arguments. You’re not a critical thinker.
Glynn Brown
Troy Day yes the basics,he never graduated from any university. He was too poor for a first class education. You need to read more about Erasmus. Have you forgotten how he back translated the last six verses of Revelation from Latin into Greek ? He made several mistakes and even made up a Greek word. And even though he was considered one of the best scholars of his time,he made sloppy mistakes,like omitting θC from Revelation 1:8 , and not editing and proofreading as much as he should have.
Pentecostal Theology
@followers Glynn Brown Neil Steven Lawrence Philip Williams Kyle Williams John Mushenhouse Paul the Apostle
The Epistle to the Hebrews of the Christian Bible is one of the New Testament books whose canonicity was disputed. Traditionally, Paul the Apostle was thought to be the author. However, since the third century this has been questioned, and the consensus among most modern scholars is that the author is unknown.
Did Paul write Hebrews?
It is possible Paul wrote the book of Hebrews. There are a couple reasons why this might be the case.
First, in the earliest manuscript editions of the New Testament books, Hebrews is included after Romans among the books written by the apostle Paul. This was taken as evidence that Paul had written it, and some Eastern churches accepted Hebrews as canonical earlier than in the West.
Second, both Clement of Alexandria (c. AD 150 – 215) and Origen (AD 185 – 253) claimed a Pauline association for the book but recognized that Paul himself probably did not put pen to paper for this book, even though they did not know the author’s name.
Clement of Alexandria suggests that Paul wrote the book originally in Hebrew and that Luke translated it into Greek, though the Greek of Hebrews bears no resemblance to translation Greek (e.g., that of the Septuagint).
The King James Version assumes Pauline authorship
The nuanced position on the authorship question by the Alexandrian fathers was obscured by later church tradition that mistook Pauline association for Pauline authorship.
The enormously influential King James Bible took its cue from this tradition. In fact, in the KJV, you’ll find the title translated as it was found in some manuscripts: “The Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Hebrews.” The tradition of Pauline authorship continued.
Parallels between Hebrews and Paul’s writings
It’s certainly reasonable to conclude Paul wrote the book of Hebrews. Many of the thoughts of Hebrews are similar to those found in Paul’s writings: https://www.pentecostaltheology.com/who-is-the-author-of-hebrews/
Troy Day
As @highlight of the above to our @followers my friends John Mushenhouse Philip Williams may remember I knew Larry well from our work and he was gonna be (and till is) featured in my book-talk with Pentecostal theologians. I helped him recover his blog about the time I was helping William DeArteaga with about the same 🙂 What Glynn Brown is referring is basically 1 ETS article by Dr. Goswell featuring Larry AND perhaps his blog post(s) like this one https://larryhurtado.wordpress.com/2018/05/10/gospels-and-names/ BUT LARRY NEVER said what Glynn is conspiring as a hearsay and any of us that knew him would also know he agreed with me on the internal evidence There is NO actual Greek scholar looking into the actual Greek of Hebrews and not admitting this is NO DOUBT Paul speaking – you can do the Hebraic into Greek gymnastic and prove something else but as far as the text we have here with us 100% Paul wrote Hebrews #over
Hurtado draws attention to a feature of our four canonical gospels that he believes is too often overlooked: the fact that they originally were anonymous and even the titles they later acquired are not declarations of authorship but rather statements about whose point of view each gospel represented (e.g. The Gospel according to Matthew / Mark / Luke / John.) In particular, Hurtado refers readers to a 2008 article written by Armin D. Baum
Baum, A. D. (2008). The Anonymity of the New Testament History Books: A Stylistic Device in the Context of Greco-Roman and Ancient near Eastern Literature. Novum Testamentum, 50(2), 120–142.
I’ve addressed the question of gospel anonymity in other posts, too, such as An Explanation for the Gospels being Anonymous.
But in thinking back on the question after perusing Hurtado’s post a related gospel feature suddenly took on a new significance for me. There can be little doubt that many of the gospel stories are kinds of re-writes of narrative episodes in the “Old Testament”. (An adjective widely used to describe this type of adaptation is “midrashic” but I have since come across Roger Aus’s suggestion that a more appropriate term might be “etiological haggada“.)
For example, it seems fairly obvious that John the Baptist in the first two gospels is based on Elijah. It is in 1 and 2 Kings where we find the lone prophet in the wilderness wearing rough animal skin clothing. Jesus’ baptism in the Jordan followed by his forty day time of trial in the wilderness is evidently a reminder of the Exodus of Israel and their forty year wandering through the Sinai. The calling of the disciples in the Gospel of Mark reminds readers of Elijah’s calling of Elisha. And so on right through to the final six chapters in which Howard Clark Kee counted 160 allusions to Scripture (and Karel Hanhart knows he missed at least one). See the posts on Mark 13, Mark 11-12, Mark 14-16.
What does this have to do with the anonymity of the gospels?
Well such “midrashic” retellings of well-known Scriptural tales demonstrate that their authors had some sense of rewriting Scripture or crafting a new type of “Scriptural Narrative” on to old ones. I don’t mean they thought of themselves writing holy writ whose every jot and tittle was breathed by God. That is hardly likely given the way we see how they freely adapted and changed each other’s work.
But it does make some sort of sense that someone writing a renewed or revised adaptation of stories from the anonymous books of biblical history would, as per those original historical books, likewise allow their own compositions to go without authorial identification.
The authority of anonymity, as someone said. Harder to argue with a story that bypasses a fallible human intermediary.