| Joe Absher |
Yes it’s a position held by Jewish scholars let me look through some literature and get back to you. I think it’s called “the two atonement’s” |
| Billy Monroe Poff |
But they still believe the Gentiles can be saved through Christ? |
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| Joe Absher |
Billy Monroe Poff I believe so, “Jesus is for gentiles” I think. I could wrong but let me find the ” paper” I’m thinking of. I believe it’s “inaccurate” but before i get into trouble let me let me go over the material. God willing. |
| Gerardo de Dominicis |
A false doctrine to ease the Jewish-christian relationship. |
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| Roger Throckmorton |
Yes, but, I don’t understand it! I just don’t see it. |
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| Gerardo de Dominicis |
He says that Jews can be saved by observing the Torah without believing in Jesus, because God made an eternal covenant with them. This doctrine contradicts many bible verses but the book of Hebrews addresses this topic very clearly. |
| Jed Foster |
That’s a pretty grotesque theology. |
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| Joe Bender |
But Jesus t.d aught in the temple to the Jews not Gentiles. Where.do people.come up with these things |
| Troy Day |
I am very surprised that Hadee is teaching covenant theology which is NOT compatible with dispensationalism that he also teaches. Dual covenant may be something in the area of Tom Steele |
| Tom Steele |
Dual covenant theology, in a nutshell, is the idea that Jews are “allowed” to operate under the old covenant as a still legitimate covenant and do not need a path to salvation that goes through Jesus/Yeshua. So far as I know, Hagee has denied teaching this point of view, though it seems to me that something I read in a book of his a long time ago alluded to it. Maybe he used to teach it and has recanted. I really don’t know, I don’t actually follow him much these days. In a way, the concept does make some sense. The Israelites had a legitimate covenant with God prior to Yeshua coming as the Messiah. But it also has many, many flaws. I cannot endorse it any more than I can endorse “Replacement Theology”, which basically claims that the Church replaced Israel, Christians replaced the Jews as God’s covenant people, and the “new covenant” is completely separate from the “old covenant”. None of this is Scriptural either. The Bible plainly says that the new covenant is with the house of Israel and the house of Judah and the sign of the new covenant is that God will put the Torah in the mind and write it on the heart of the one entering into the covenant (as opposed to the Torah being written on tablets of stone). Thus, the human heart becomes an “Ark of the Covenant” housing the Torah and we are able to obey His Torah out of our undeniable love for the Father. Dual covenant theology may make a little bit of sense, but it presents a post-Messianic path to salvation without the Messiah, and this is a very dangerous position to put oneself in. Much like the hyper-grace antinomian nonsense of today is a dangerous place to put oneself in. The logical thing to do is to accept Yeshua as your Master and Messiah AND obey His Torah out of your love for Him, as you are “saved from sin” and sin is the transgression of the Torah (1 John 3:4). Any theological view that does not have one accepting Yeshua for salvation AND obeying the Bible, starting with Torah, is a dangerous path to walk. When people do that, if they are wrong, there is a place they will spend eternity, and it won’t be the Kingdom of Heaven. So do the smart thing, accept Yeshua AND obey Torah. If you truly love God, that shouldn’t be a hard thing to do. If you are truly in covenant, it’ll be very easy because He already put His Torah in your mind and wrote it on your heart (Jeremiah 31:32, Hebrews 8:10). |
| Joseph Kidwell |
Tom Steele, I have nothing to add. I agree 100%. |
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| Tom Steele |
Hmmmm… someone in this group agreeing with me, that’s a first, LOL. 🤣🤣🤣 |
| Joe Absher |
From “Are there two ways of Atonement” |
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| Joe Absher |
An answer from Dr Goldberg (Moody) to assertions from the Jewish scholar Rosenzweig “The Star of Redemption” that the Jewish people have no need to be converted or born again. As a people already in covenant |
| Troy Day |
How would the Jews be saved then? Billy Monroe Poff |
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| Billy Monroe Poff |
If I am understanding the dual covenant theology viewpoint, (which I don’t subscribe to), they believe that their salvation is found within the everlasting covenant that God made with Abraham… |
| Troy Day |
but does this involve faith in Jesus or just works? |
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| Billy Monroe Poff |
Since the Jews don’t believe that Jesus is the Messiah, I’m assuming it’s ALL about keeping the ‘law of Moses’, while having faith in God’s promises to Abraham. |
| Randy H Johnson |
Our western civilization thought process is what keeps us from understanding this perspective (even though I don’t personally buy it). We think in terms of individuals being saved or lost. Eastern thought thinks collectively, of the people as a nation, rather than individuals (so for them, in a manner of speaking, there is no individual salvation apart from the larger community).Paul does say that at the return of Jesus, “all Israel will be saved”. He deals with the problem of unbelieving individuals by saying “For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.”The reason dual covenant theology is false is because eventually God is going to reveal Jesus to Israel and all Israel is going to believe in Jesus as the Messiah (I assume whether they are living or dead at the time). I compare this with Joseph revealing himself to his brothers when they came down to Egypt for food.Israel (as a nation) rejected Jesus as the Messiah and had him crucified, just like Joseph brothers sold Joseph to the Ishmaelites. They meant it for evil, but God turned it around for good. Just as Joseph saved Israel from famine in Egypt, Jesus will save Israel when He returns. This requires a level of thought and abstraction that we are not used to practicing in our Greek influenced western frame of thinking. |
| Troy Day |
Billy Monroe Poff did you ask this because Hagee prayed at the US embassy in Jerusalem |
| Billy Monroe Poff |
I wasnt able to watch the dedication of the new embassy. I came across this article about John Hagee speaking at the event and that’s where it came from… http://www.nowtheendbegins.com/false-teacher-john…/… |
| Troy Day |
https://www.cnn.com/…/pastor-robert-jeffress-john-hagee… |
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| Timothy K. Wiebe |
Abraham was saved under the old covenant, but there was NO new covenant at the time. |
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Philip Williams
One of John Hagee’s positions, depending on who he is talking to. Essentially it’s denial of Jesus as being necessary for Jewish salvation.
Varnel Watson
Philip Williams planing to touch this subject a bit more in the days to come Especially with his book on Jerusalem – says a lot Billy Monroe Poff asked this subject few months back then your question followed shortly and you repeated it 1-2 times under Hagees videos
Joe Absher responded Yes it’s a position held by Jewish scholars let me look through some literature and get back to you. I think it’s called “the two atonement’s”
and Gerardo de Dominicis promptly said A false doctrine to ease the Jewish-christian relationship.
I did not see a comment by Link Hudson – must have not visited Hagees church just yet but maybe soon
Billy Monroe Poff May have asked this because Hagee prayed at the US embassy in Jerusalem At least it was about that time
Philip Williams
Troy Day I talked Michael Brown about this when Hagee wrote ‘In Defense of Israel’ with the absurd claim that Jesus never claimed to be Israel’s Messiah. He went down to talk to Hagee and said Hagee denied what he had written. But I have the book. Hagee has never publicly corrected his claims in the book. That was just a way of having his cake and eating it to.
Hagee has denied the essential tenet of Christianity. All who accept him may as well accept the liberal Christians, have themselves denied Christ! Brothers and sisters, do you understand what you are doing by accepting John Hagee as a Christian? You are denying Christ.
Varnel Watson
Philip Williams I was thinking of his Jerusalem Countdown work Maybe we need to post some of it and crank it up for discussion – not sure where you see the Dual covenant though What exactly did he say about it?
Philip Williams
Troy Day he denies in his book that Jews need salvation from Jesus! He claims Jesus never intended or claimed to have been their Messiah! The Lord’s wrath is going to be exceedingly great upon Hagee and all who are involved with him.
Varnel Watson
yeah – seems like we are gonna need to pick up on this again Billy Monroe Poff pointed to this one back in the day but I guess we are not with the subject just yet ?
Billy Monroe Poff
I remember hearing something he said about the two covenants .. One with Israel and one with Christians… That was the first I had heard of that theology and that’s why I posted it. I don’t remember much about the post now…. My memory is slipping in my old age…lol
Varnel Watson
YAP I remember it – we need to pick it up soon
Varnel Watson
Kyle Williams Ray E Horton this was first brought into the group by Billy Monroe Poff “Dual-covenant or two-covenant theology is a school of thought in Christianity regarding the relevance of the Hebrew Bible, which Christians call the Old Testament.” (Sourced from wikipedia’s page on Dual-Covenant Theology)
I have noticed some what of a trend in most charismatic churches today and I see it spilling over into many of our Pentecostal churches today, this trend is a form of Dual-Covenant theology known as the Hebraic Roots or Hebrew Roots Movement (HRM.)
I am confused as to how and why this has become almost the norm in churches today especially good bible believing Pentecostal and Charismatic churches. I have seen it in many non Denomonational charismatic churches in my region and even sat in on some classes taught at a local Assembly of God.
There is A UPC Church down the road, in which the pastor, who often refers to himself as Rabbi, conducts Hebrew Roots classes and they as a church observe many of the Jewish feasts and festivals. Some even go as far as keeping the dietary codes laid out in Torah. They classify themselves as Torah observant. Is there any biblical support for such a doctrine? Some would say that Galatians 5:3 supports this. But that’s bad exegesis.
The Apostle Paul spends much time in writing to the Galatians explicitly on this subject, as I read it.
“STAND fast therefore with liberty where CHRIST hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised Christ shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to the whole law. CHRIST IS BECOME OF NO EFFECT UNTO YOU, WHOSPEVER YOU ARE JUSTIFIED BY THE LAW; ye are FALLEN FROM GRACE” Galatians 5:1-4 KJV
This seems to be an explicit warning against dual covenant theology, dosen’t it? http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/?s=dual
Ken Van Horn
All the covenants of God remain active and are eternal. There remains yet another covenant Christ will establish with Israel at His Second Coming (Jeremiah 31:32, 2 Sam 5:3).
Gentiles are not obligated to obey the Abrahamic Covenant or the Mosaic Covenant because we are not physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
A Jewish believer in Jesus remains obligated to obey the Mosaic Covenant (Acts 21:20ff), even though obeying the LAW cannot save him.
Jesus is is the WORD made flesh which means He is the LAW made flesh, the PROPHETS made flesh, and the WRITINGS made flesh. Want to know how Christ will judge you at the judgment seat? Look at the Law; it clearly lays out the principals of justice and the rewards and penalties for everything we do in the flesh, whether it is good or bad (2 Cor 5:10).
Varnel Watson
Ken Van Horn Billy Monroe Poff would ISRAEL be saved through JESUS or through Abrahamic Covenant ?
Varnel Watson
do we still find this heretical? RichardAnna Boyce Billy Monroe Poff
Billy Monroe Poff
Troy Day I believe it depends upon the level that one would be inclined to take it to. To have a good understanding the Hebrew roots of Christianity is a good thing. But to fall into the legalistic practices thereof could lead to being on shaky ground. But I would say that each one should purpose in their own heart that whatever they do, they do it unto the Lord thy God. For His glory alone.
Varnel Watson
Billy Monroe Poff well we’ve discussed before with Gary Micheal Epping and others BUT simply theologically separation of Israel from the NT church does not really fit. When you come to the point that one nation is saved under one covenant and the NT church under the blood covenant of Jesus THEN we end up with different divine entities offering salvation WHILE we know Jesus is the only mediator and sacrifice So just for that dualism is thrown out as heretical and I personally dont see a NT church going through the Tribulation surviving and getting saved during or after it By the time GOD send his wrath it is all a done deal for me
Doyle Rogers
You wrote ” theologically separation of Israel from the NT church does not really fit.’ According to the Scripture Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, (gentiles ) wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Rom 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I ( the gentile church )might be graffed in. ……………………………………….. We share the same roots,……… what separates us is the fruits of the branches that are grafted in . GRACE VERSES THE LEVITICAL LAW.. ………………..Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain ONE NEW MAN,, so making peace;
Eph 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
Eph 2:17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
Varnel Watson
Doyle Rogers what are you saying? Does ISRAEL need another Savor besides Jesus? Are they not saved by the BLOOD from His Sacrifice on Calvary? What are you saying?
Doyle Rogers
ISAIAH POTRAYED JESUS AS…….Isa 53:2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and AS A ROOT OUT OF A DRY GROUND. …………………. Heb 5:6 As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. ………………. NOT OF THE TRIBE OF LEVI BUT OF JUDAH . AN ETERNAL PRIESTHOOD THAT EVIDENTLY EXISTED BEFORE THE WORLDS WERE CREATED..
Varnel Watson
Doyle Rogers you just contradicted yourself with your own previous comment? what are you saying IS all ISRAEL going to be saved in ONE day without Jesus ?
Doyle Rogers
YOU ASK ..what are you saying IS all ISRAEL going to be saved in ONE day without Jesus ?…… MY ANSWER……..ALL HUMANITY WAS PARTENTUALLY SAVED …IN ONE DAY (.THE DAY JESUS DIED UPON CALVARY’S CROSS..IF THEY WIII RECIEVE IT) BOTH JEW AND GENTILE … If you will read the book of Hebrews you will understand what I am posting…………….. What I am posting is there is a far greater Priest hood that exist in Which JESUS IS THE HIGH PRIEST. (that .continued with David (AND THE TRIBE OF JUDAH ) as prophet priest and king . It does not negate the Levitical Law but rather fulfills it. .
Varnel Watson
Doyle Rogers that is NOT what I asked you
Doyle Rogers
What more can I say . I said that all humanity both Jew and gentile have to depend upon the blood of Jesus for their salvation . The Messianic prophet Isaiah in the OLD TESTAMENT ( WRITTEN UNDER THE LAW ) made this very clear..
Varnel Watson
bro Billy Monroe Poff will you pls explain to our bro Doyle Rogers the danger of dual covenant teaching He seems to be talking about something else perhaps not grasping this one well Just clarifying the stance on this one
Anonymous
Duane L Burgess you did not know when you wrote
Replacement theology – denying God’s future plans for ethnic national Israel – is heresy.
BUT Billy Monroe Poff first brought the topic to this group talking to Joseph D. Absher some years ago. Today Thangsan Hisfootstep also stated for John Mushenhouse
I believe that we don’t need to replace OT covenant or OT chosen people because we have a better covenant made by the precious blood of Jesus Christ. OT chosen people is by Abraham, God’s servant, but NT chosen generation by Jesus Christ, the Son.
Anonymous
Troy Day The covenants are between Yahweh and Israel, not us.
The Gentiles share in the spiritual blessings by being wild branches grafted into the vine, Jesus Christ.
The Church began at Pentecost and is raptured prior to the Tribulation which is ethnic national Israel’s time of Jacob’s trouble.
God will purge and cleanse that people in great tribulation. Those who endure to the end will represent the “all Israel” that will be saved and enter the literal Millennial Kingdom on earth.
…who are Israelites,
to whom belongs the adoption as sons,
and the glory and the covenants
and the giving of the Law
and the temple service
and the promises…
Romans 9
Anonymous
Duane L Burgess IF you state between Yahweh and Israel, not us.
You are already speaking of ANOTHER covenant
Are you saying ISRAEL will be saved with ANOTHER way and not JESUS? Billy Monroe Poff Kyle Williams Link Hudson may differ on this one
Anonymous
Duel Covenant Theology undermines the gospel. The mosaic covenant is fulfilled.
Anonymous
Brett Dobbs WELL
its dual
Its covenant
And its theology
Anonymous
I do not see a definition of dual covenant theology.
Anonymous
Derek Godfrey WELL
its dual
Its covenant
And its theology
Anonymous
Troy Day that’s helpful. Not
Anonymous
Derek Godfrey sure thing Philip Williams may explain more
Anonymous
Derek Godfrey dual covenant holds that Jews don’t need Jesus to be saved.
Anonymous
Philip Williams ok. Then there is this growing belief that even the 10 Commandments were only for Israel.
Anonymous
Derek Godfrey there is NO such belief but do tell about the 10 Communists in Israel. Philip Williams just loves Communists
Anonymous
Troy Day there is a belief. I see it in other groups almost daily.
Anonymous
Derek Godfrey https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p53x_zK0he0
Anonymous
Derek Godfrey I believe they can be derived from the 2 great commandments.
Anonymous
John Hagee espoused dual covenant in his book ‘In Defense of Israel,’ then had to spin it back.
Anonymous
Philip Williams aren’t all dispensationalists practically Dual Covenantalists?
Anonymous
Manu George practically NOT of course Oscar Valdez knows better
Anonymous
Manu George sometimes they are and sometimes not. They don’t understand what they believe.
Anonymous
Philip Williams is pope-sent
Anonymous
Troy Day Jesuit or freemason?
Anonymous
Troy Day
Media: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=7227471020620546&set=p.7227471020620546&type=3
Anonymous
Philip Williams Porter is OK but seems Oscar Valdez has started splitting hairs with ISRAEL a bit
Anonymous
Dual Covenant was created by liberal theologians in the second third of the twentieth century.
Anonymous
In the book of Romans Paul was writing to Jewish and Gentile believers. In chapter 9 he speaks to issues related to God choosing Israel; then gentiles. And that the Jews should not boast or question God.
It’s not a passage to say that God has arbitrarily chosen all people through all time for either heaven or hell. It’s about the gospel going from Jews to gentiles. A common theme and tension in the New Testament that many- including Calvin, misunderstood.
I would challenge anyone – to first – read a good article on Biblical hermeneutics; or read a small book on it- then to read through Romans chapters 1-11 in one sitting as a body of thought – and set aside man made theological constructs which tell you what to believe.
You’ll be surprised what you’ll see when you do this with an objective approach.
Those who respond and say this is not a corporately written section of Scripture because “nations are made up of individuals” reveal their theological bias. Because in saying this- nothing could ever be written in a corporate sense; because the entire world is made up of individuals.
Anonymous
Troy Day well said.
Anonymous
https://www.pentecostaltheology.com/dictators-at-who-aim-to-begin-installing-a-one-world-government/
Anonymous
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p53x_zK0he0
Anonymous
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrqRoLxa178
Anonymous
what do you know about all this Ben Bottke ?
Anonymous
This is what John Hagee, the founder of Christians United for Israel (CUFI) had to say about how Jewish people are saved. He later tried to change his position, but it’s pretty obvious he had already spoken his mind.
“I believe that every Jewish person who lives in the light of the Torah, which is the word of God, has a relationship with God and will come to redemption,” and “I’m not trying to convert the Jewish people to the Christian faith.” The news article went on to report: “In fact, trying to convert Jews is a ‘waste of time,’ [Hagee] said. ‘The Jewish person who has his roots in Judaism is not going to convert to Christianity. There is no form of Christian evangelism that has failed so miserably as evangelizing the Jewish people. They [already] have a faith structure.’ Everyone else, whether Buddhist or Baha’i, needs to believe in Jesus, he says. But not Jews. Jews already have a covenant with God that has never been replaced by Christianity, he says”. (“San Antonio Fundamentalist Battles Anti-Semitism,” Houston Chronicle, April 30, 1988, section 6, page 1).
Anonymous
Dual covenant is false theology.
Anonymous
Duane L Burgess agree there are a lot of false theologies and theologians
Anonymous
Jeffrey Snyder so you agree with Derek Godfrey Philip Williams on this? https://www.pentecostaltheology.com/mike-bickle-of-ihop-just-endorsed-ted-cruz/
Anonymous
Oscar Valdez Dispensations in the Bible as we discussed months ago based on the following work by James Morris
Dispensationalism is simply the doctrine that God interacts with mankind in different ways at different times. Detractors of this doctrine see it as God “trying” different things. But that is not the doctrine at all. Rather than imagining that God is “trying” different things, Dispensationalists realize that God is running a series of tests. But these are not tests in the sense of finding out what will happen. Instead, this series of tests is designed to demonstrate what God already knew, that mankind will fail under any conceivable circumstance.
God’s first test of mankind was to leave him innocent, without any knowledge of good or evil. For “they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.” (Genesis 2:25) In this test, God gave mankind only one law. “Of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat.” (Genesis 2:17)
God warned them of the result of breaking this one law, that they would surely die. But they broke that one law, because they chose to believe Satan’s lie that God did not have their own best interests in mind. This brought about the first change in God’s dealings. “And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked.” (Genesis 3:7) Here is a distinct change, a condition that had not existed before. They were naked before, but so what? That was just what they looked like. But now they knew that they were naked.
This dispensation, though short, ended with mankind being sent out of the garden of Eden, where everything for which they could wish had been provided for them. But now they had to work for a living.
After expelling mankind from the garden, God left them more or less up to their own devices, with no guide (at least, with no guide that is recorded in the scriptures) except their consciences. And what was the result of this test? “And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.” (Genesis 6:5) “The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.” (Genesis 6:11) So God sent the great flood, destroying all of mankind except Noah and his family.
So even as the first dispensation had ended with “a flaming sword which turned every way,” (Genesis 3:24) keeping mankind out of the garden, this one ended with all of mankind except one family being put to death.
After the flood, God made a new law, something that had not existed before. He said, “Surely for your lifeblood I will demand a reckoning; from the hand of every beast I will require it, and from the hand of man. From the hand of every man’s brother I will require the life of man.
“Whoever sheds man’s blood,
By man his blood shall be shed;
For in the image of God He made man.” (Genesis 9:5-6)
This was again a change, something that had not existed before. And mankind went out, and began to establish kingdoms. And they began to rebel against God, building a tower to reach his heaven. (Of course, God knew, as we do today, that this would not work. But they did not know that.) Up to this time “the whole earth had one language, and one speech.” (Genesis 11:1) But “the LORD confused the language of all the earth; and from there the LORD scattered them abroad over the face of all the earth.” (Genesis 11:9)
So this dispensation, in which God first held man responsible to administer justice, ended with their single language confounded, so they were scattered abroad upon the face of the earth.
After this, God “said to Abram:
‘Get out of your country,
From your family
And from your father’s house,
To a land that I will show you.
I will make you a great nation; (Genesis 12:1-3)
This, again, was something new. Something that God had never done before. He took a single man and gave him a great promise. Later on, He expanded that promise, saying, “Lift your eyes now and look from the place where you are–northward, southward, eastward, and westward; for all the land which you see I give to you and your descendants forever. And I will make your descendants as the dust of the earth; so that if a man could number the dust of the earth, then your descendants also could be numbered.” (Genesis 13:14-16) Later, He clarified this, “saying: ‘To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the River Euphrates:’ ” (Genesis 15:18-21) And “He said to Abram: ‘Know certainly that your descendants will be strangers in a land that is not theirs, and will serve them, and they will afflict them four hundred years. And also the nation whom they serve I will judge; afterward they shall come out with great possessions.” (Genesis 15:13-14) Abraham’s descendants forgot the promises and descended into the hopelessness of slavery, so hopeless that when God sent “Moses and Aaron” to deliver them, they said to them, “Let the LORD look on you and judge, because you have made us abhorrent in the sight of Pharaoh and in the sight of his servants, to put a sword in their hand to kill us.” (Exodus 5:21)
So this dispensation ended with the promise forgotten, and even the hope of deliverance scorned.
But God indeed brought them out, and gave them a long and detailed law, with promises of blessing for those who kept it and curses for those who did not. This, again, was something God had never done before. It was new and different. But none of them kept this law. And they finally nailed the only one who ever kept it to a tree.
So this dispensation ended with the only truly righteous man who ever lived, hanging on a tree.
When Jesus died, God offered salvation to whoever would believe in Him. This was something God had never done before. Scripture calls this “the dispensation of the grace of God.” (Ephesians 3:2) But scripture also tells us how this dispensation will end, saying “evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived.” (2 Timothy 3:13) And Jesus himself asked the rhetorical question “when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth?” (Luke 18:8) The answer, from other scriptures, is plainly, no. For we are told, “Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.” (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4) And “The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” (2 Thessalonians 2:9-12)
So we are explicitly told that this dispensation will end with a punitive blindness imposed by God because men “did not love the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” (Ezekiel 43:18) https://www.amazon.com/Ancient-Dispensational-Truth-Refuting-Dispensationalism/dp/1945774290/
Anonymous
I further discussed this under this post month ago stating the following :
Link Hudson Oscar Valdez our dear brother James C. Morris has written a FINE book answering many of your questions – just a brief quote here J.D. King would want to consider as well
Two Comings and Two Gatherings to Two Places
Some have very incorrectly called the doctrine of the rapture a “theory.” It is not a theory, but an explicitly stated doctrine of scripture. For it is clearly stated in two scriptures.
The first place where we find it in the Bible is:
“Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed– in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: ‘Death is swallowed up in victory.’ ” (1 Corinthians 15:51-54)
And the second place is:
“But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.” (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18)
As a side note, we should mention here that the words “caught up” in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 are a translation of a form of the Greek word ἁρπἁζω, which is harapzo in our alphabet. The Latin translation of this Greek word, as given in the Vulgate text, is “rapiemur.” And the English word “rapture” is derived from this Latin word. So, even though the word “rapture” does not occur in any English translation of the Bible, yet it is indeed a scriptural term.
We need to notice that these two scriptures plainly state that there will be a time when the Lord will come and at that time the dead in Christ will rise first, and then we which are still alive will be “caught up” “together with them in the clouds,” to be with our Lord forever. But now we must ask, where will we be taken to be with Him? This is not left to our imagination. For Jesus said:
‘Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.” (John 14:1-3)
Here, our Lord plainly said where He was going. It was to “My Father’s house.” And He told us why He was going there. It was “to prepare a place for you.” So the place He was preparing for us was in “My Father’s house.” And He said “I will come again and receive you to Myself.” But why will he do this? “That where I am, there you may be also.” But where was He going? To “My father’s house.” So “My Father’s house” is the place where He will take us.
This is again plainly shown by the fact that in Matthew 25, in the parable of the wise and foolish virgins, “while” the foolish virgins “went to buy,” oil for their lamps, “the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding.” (Matthew 25:10) Where did the wise virgins go? They “went in with him to the wedding.” And where will “the wedding” take place? In Revelation 19:7-9, “the marriage of the Lamb” takes place in heaven, just before the Lord goes forth from heaven as the “KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS,” to punish the world for its wickedness in Revelation 19:11-21.
But there is another coming of Christ, with another gathering, described in other scriptures. We find this other coming clearly described as taking place after “the marriage of the Lamb” in Luke 12:35-37, where we read, “Let your waist be girded and your lamps burning; and you yourselves be like men who wait for their master, when he will return from the wedding, that when he comes and knocks they may open to him immediately. Blessed are those servants whom the master, when he comes, will find watching. Assuredly, I say to you that he will gird himself and have them sit down to eat, and will come and serve them.” As this scripture very clearly says that the coming described here will be “when” the “master” “will return from the wedding,” this clearly has to take place after “those who were ready went in with him to the wedding.”(Matthew 25:10) So ths is unquestionably a different coming. And this different coming involves a different gathering, which will be to a different place. We find this coming and gathering described in the last chapter of Isaiah, along with the location to which the people will be gathered.
“ ‘For behold, the LORD will come with fire
And with His chariots, like a whirlwind,
To render His anger with fury,
And His rebuke with flames of fire.
For by fire and by His sword
The LORD will judge all flesh;
And the slain of the LORD shall be many.
‘Those who sanctify themselves and purify themselves,
To go to the gardens
After an idol in the midst,
Eating swine’s flesh and the abomination and the mouse,
Shall be consumed together,’ says the LORD.
‘For I know their works and their thoughts. It shall be that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come and see My glory. I will set a sign among them; and those among them who escape I will send to the nations: to Tarshish and Pul and Lud, who draw the bow, and Tubal and Javan, to the coastlands afar off who have not heard My fame nor seen My glory. And they shall declare My glory among the Gentiles. Then they shall bring all your brethren for an offering to the LORD out of all nations, on horses and in chariots and in litters, on mules and on camels, to My holy mountain Jerusalem,” says the LORD, “as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD. And I will also take some of them for priests and Levites,’ says the LORD.” (Isaiah 66:15-21)
Here, there is no mention of anyone rising from the dead, or of anyone being “caught up.” Instead, there is mass killing, and people being gathered, not to “My Father’s house,” but “to my holy mountain Jerusalem.”
We see this again in the words of the prophet Jeremiah:
“ ‘Therefore behold, the days are coming,’ says the LORD, ‘that it shall no more be said, “The LORD lives who brought up the children of Israel from the land of Egypt,” but, “The LORD lives who brought up the children of Israel from the land of the north and from all the lands where He had driven them.” For I will bring them back into their land which I gave to their fathers.
‘Behold, I will send for many fishermen,’ says the LORD, ‘and they shall fish them; and afterward I will send for many hunters, and they shall hunt them from every mountain and every hill, and out of the holes of the rocks. For My eyes are on all their ways; they are not hidden from My face, nor is their iniquity hidden from My eyes.’ ” (Jeremiah 16:14-17)
https://www.pentecostaltheology.com/dr-troy-days-quote-irenaeus-on-the-pre-trib-rapture/
Anonymous
Troy Day Irenaeus believed that the Church is Israel. He was no PreTrib Dispy!
Anonymous
Philip Williams he was NOT dispy but he was pre-Trib The comment is about James C. Morris who wrote a great book years ago now copied by some authors Oscar Valdez decided to cite here lately You should read it It will help you fill up some of your church history 101 gaps