theology August 26, 2018 Does anyone still believe in a pre tribulational rapture? Posted by in Facebook's Pentecostal Theology Group View the Original Post The discussion is the article! PentecostalTheology .com Previous articleConfessions of a Train Preacher: Utah West Next articleKenneth Copeland Word Of Faith Study Bible 133 Comments Reply August 26, 2018 Link Hudson I”m seeing a meme with a link to a page tha thas no article, btw. I don’t. People claim the rapture is pre-trib, but is there any way to get that idea from the Bible? They that are Christ’s are made alive at His coming, not seven years before it. In II Thessalonians 1, the church is here when Jesus comes back and executes judgment on them that believe not. Reply August 26, 2018 Varnel Watson you should read more careful the sign then http://probible.net/1-thessalonians-416/ 1Th. 4:15 Τοῦτο γὰρ ὑμῖν λέγομεν ἐν λόγῳ κυρίου, ὅτι ἡμεῖς οἱ ζῶντες οἱ περιλειπόμενοι εἰς τὴν παρουσίαν τοῦ κυρίου οὐ μὴ φθάσωμεν τοὺς κοιμηθέντας· 16 ὅτι αὐτὸς ὁ κύριος ἐν κελεύσματι, ἐν φωνῇ ἀρχαγγέλου καὶ ἐν σάλπιγγι θεοῦ, καταβήσεται ἀπ᾿ οὐρανοῦ καὶ οἱ νεκροὶ ἐν Χριστῷ ἀναστήσονται πρῶτον, 17 ἔπειτα ἡμεῖς οἱ ζῶντες οἱ περιλειπόμενοι ἅμα σὺν αὐτοῖς ἁρπαγησόμεθα ἐν νεφέλαις εἰς ἀπάντησιν τοῦ κυρίου εἰς ἀέρα· καὶ οὕτως πάντοτε σὺν κυρίῳ ἐσόμεθα Reply August 26, 2018 Louise Cummings Yes , for sure believe. Reply August 26, 2018 Jeff Latham Yes, I believe it Reply August 26, 2018 Varnel Watson 2 believe it – 3 with me Terry Wiles Ricky Grimsley He employs the term κελεύσματος, (shout,) and afterwards adds, the voice of the archangel, by way of exposition, intimating what is to be the nature of that arousing shout—that the archangel will discharge the office of a herald to summon the living and the dead to the tribunal of Christ. ~John Calvin Reply August 26, 2018 Ricky Grimsley Really you gonna quote Calvin. He had never heard of a pre-trib rapture Reply August 26, 2018 Varnel Watson actually he did – you should check it out Reply August 26, 2018 Jeanette Elizondo I Do !! Reply August 26, 2018 John That’s me. Reply August 26, 2018 Daniel J Hesse Why not? Reply August 26, 2018 Ricky Grimsley Troy please show me a quote where Calvin believe or heard of pretrib. Reply August 27, 2018 Varnel Watson Read about his connection with Joachim of Fiore https://books.google.com/books?id=npv9re_5RuwC&pg=PA257&lpg=PA257&dq=Joachim+of+Fiore+and+john+calvin&source=bl&ots=6HvpADvuOO&sig=UeMB-_mWWBLrKfuigdvcvhn48u0&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiFv-SK7ozdAhXqnuAKHTBlC5gQ6AEwAXoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=Joachim%20of%20Fiore%20and%20john%20calvin&f=false Reply August 27, 2018 Ricky Grimsley Man you are really seeing stuff that ain’t there Reply August 27, 2018 Varnel Watson Seriously? So you are reading it and STILL saying not there 🙂 #funn Reply August 26, 2018 Chuck Cleghorn Yes Reply August 27, 2018 Varnel Watson http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/pre-wrath-rapture-its-basically-just-another-fake-news-theology/ Reply August 27, 2018 Varnel Watson Rapture from the lat. rapirre is mentioned in 1 Thess. Lat. Rapire is the correct term for our English word rapture and fully embodies the Greek word harpazo used by Paul in the text http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/the-ancient-church…/ Reply August 27, 2018 Ricky Grimsley The early church fathers did not ever believe pre-trib. They all thought they were in the trib Reply August 27, 2018 Varnel Watson Obviously they did You just need to read more books and watch less Perry and you will learn soon Reply August 27, 2018 Varnel Watson Ricky Grimsley several strowman posts you’ve made this far – church fathers did or did not rapture – off topic, not the OP – Calvin was pre-trib – no one said that at all – he was a-mil @best – Calvin wrote about eschatology – not so except Institutes vol. 4 What was actually being said was a quote from Calvin showing he was very much aware of the 12-13 dispensational teachings by Fiore – again reading a few books may help in the future or may not Reply August 27, 2018 Ricky Grimsley Apparently you are the only one that has access to the documents that prove Calvin knew about a pre-trib doctrine Reply August 27, 2018 Varnel Watson I posted you the link above. Did you not read it? Joakim Fiere and his eschatology was a major influence on both Luther and Calvin as reformers Reply August 27, 2018 Louise Cummings I know you have already read the Scriptures I use. It says that 1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Reply August 27, 2018 Ricky Grimsley I believe in the rapture. I know the Bible. Reply August 27, 2018 Ricky Grimsley The Bible does not teach pre-trib Reply August 27, 2018 Varnel Watson The Bible does teaches pre-trib Everything else is heresy Reply August 27, 2018 Derrick Stokes Rapture? yes. Pre-trib? No. Reply August 27, 2018 Varnel Watson hat other rapture is there? Reply August 27, 2018 Derrick Stokes Mid-trib. Post-trib. I lean more so towards the latter Reply August 27, 2018 Varnel Watson these are all do overs Ricky Grimsley Reply August 28, 2018 Scotty Searan Rapture yes but no secret rapture or pre-trib rapture I believe in a pre-wrath rapture. Reply August 28, 2018 Scotty Searan Troy Day If the pre-trib Rapture is scriptural then why didn’t Jesus speak more of it Jesus C hrist doesn’t mentioned that the saints will be gathered by the angels, till the sun is darkened, the moon turns to blood and stars fall from the which is the Day of the Lord prophesied by the prophet Joel. Apostle Paul mentioned in 2nd Thessalonians chapter 2 verse 2 about the day of Christ which is the day of the Lord that it will not happen until the man of sin, the Son of perdition be revealed And there come a great Falling Away amongst the Saints Apostle Paul also goes on to explain and details about a man of sin being one who sets himself on the throne of the temple of God and exalts himself above God Now that to me sounds like the Antichrist The Antichrist will not show its true colors until the middle of the tribulation. Then that’s when his true colors will be shown Now a few pre-trib people believe believe that it is the church that is holding back the revealing of the Antichrist also somebody that it is the holy ghost that is holding back be revealing of the Antichrist Now if it is the Holy Ghost holding back the Antichrist and the Holy Ghost be taken out of the way how will people get saved after the tribulation. Without the Holy Ghost the spirit of God the spirit of Jesus Christ drawing them If the church be gone at this time how are the people who did. Serve Jesus Christ up to this time going to be able to serve them now at this time Call it hair see if you must but the Rapture will not take place till nearing the end of the Great Tribulation. When the moon Turns to blood the Sun turn the darkness these events do not be dead tell Revelations chapter 6 with the Sun and the Moon Revelations chapter 7 is the parentheses chapter it explains what is going on in the heavens the angels are being sent to Earth to seal the hundred and forty four thousand people of Israel and then there’s a great multitude of people with robes on and where did they say they came out of they came out of Great Tribulation That’s just plain reading the scriptures and tie them together Reply August 28, 2018 Varnel Watson Jesus spoke enough of it what Jesus did NOT speak of was pre-wrath rapture #JustNotThere Reply August 28, 2018 Louise Cummings Well it will only be the Christians that hears His Voice that will wake up the dead Christians. But a Trumpet will sound. So you might not call it secret. I don’t know if the sinners will hear the Trumpet or not. But I really don’t believe they will. The Bible said He is coming like a thief in the night. In other words always be watching for Him. Then in Revelation over close to the last few chapters says. But the rest of the dead lived not until the thousand years were past. After the thousand years has passed. Then he will raise the sinners that wasn’t ready to go as a Christian. They will have to stand before the Great White Throne. To be judged for their sins. Then the devil and the sinners will be cast into the lake of fire, that never stops I don’t think I would be worrying over whether or not He will com at Pre Tribulations or Mid Tribulations or Post Tribulations. I would be worrying about if I believed that Jesus Christ Was The Son Of God. And He Died and Shed His Precious Blood , and took our sins and shame. And was Buried, and rose again the third Day. And we confess our sins to Him. He is faithful and Just to forgive to forgive us our sins. Romans 10:9. I believe is where that Scripture is found. I don’t know if you don’t understand that Pre Tribulations is wright. And you think Mid Tribulations is right. Whether that would keep you from going or not. If you are truly born again and become a new creature in Christ. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.i believe you would hear His Voice at Resurrection, and go in the Rapture. You just might get there sooner. The last part is my opinion. Reply August 28, 2018 Scotty Searan Louise Cummings my pastor and I disagree on the Rapture Many years ago when I was an adult Sunday School teacher and the Rapture was being taught I would get someone else to teach Sunday School I could not teach something I don’t believe. Reply August 28, 2018 Louise Cummings That was good in you. But if you pray. And ask God to lead you right. He said He would give us understanding. Reply August 28, 2018 Scotty Searan Louise Cummings The words you say are true. Paul did say that the coming of the Lord would be as a thief in the night for those that are in darkness He did say that the coming of Lord would not overtake the children of light as a thief. God has promise to deliver us from. God never promised us deliverance from tribulation or persecution. The first half if not more of the great tribulation will be persecution of the saints and the saints that came through great tribulation, not the Wrath of God are in heaven in Rev. Chapter 7. I do believe in a pre-millennial and a post millennial second coming of Christ I don’t believe the sinners will be raised from the dead till the post millennial rapture Reply August 28, 2018 Louise Cummings The Holy Ghost will with draw Him self. Or He is in Christians are gone. The Holy Ghost will go with the Church. But The Father , Son , and The Holy Ghost is Omnipresent, everywhere at the same time. I believe He will have to withdraw Himself long enough for the devil to do his with. If the Holy Ghost was their. He could restrain Satan to where he could do nothing. Yes there will be one hundred and fourth four sealed in the Tribulations. That won’t be hurt. It could be The Lord Raptured them away until this battle is fought. But People who thought they were Christians. Misses the Rapture. Will either have to take the Mark of the beast. Or if they don’t. They will be beheaded. If you take the mark. You are doomed forever. Some of those people might make it through. And of course all sinners. So if the behead you because you wouldn’t be alive to know if Jesus came in Mid Tribulations. Or not. They would be dead. Those that takes the mark has only a few years to live. Because is coming back at the end of the Tribulations. And those that takes the mark. Before the seven years is here. The Bible said the would be crying for Rich’s and Mountains to fall on them. They will pray to die and can’t die. You don’t want to miss the Rapture at any cost. God if any misses the Rapture. Please don’t take the mark of the beast. Before you are killed. You will have a chance to pray and ask God to forgive your sins. And at the end of the Tribulations. You will still go to be with the Lord. Reply August 28, 2018 Melvin Harter Who would not believe in a pre-Tribulation Rapture? Reply August 28, 2018 Varnel Watson Ricky Grimsley? Scotty Searan ? Reply August 28, 2018 Link Hudson Just about any Christian before 1800 and careful students of the word who rely on scripture and not what they hear from pulpits in certain types of churches. Reply August 30, 2018 Hannah Mcabe who would not? i’d imagine the people who don’t take a few verses of scripture and most of revelation out of context to suit their narrative .. we’re seeing a lot of trouble coming – buckle up! Reply August 30, 2018 Varnel Watson try again the Link The Ancient Church Fathers Believed in Pre-Trib Rapture http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/the-ancient-church-fathers-believed-in-pre-trib-rapture/ Reply August 30, 2018 Link Hudson Why do they take a quote from Ireneaus which seems to indicate he believes the church will go through the tribulation as evidence for pre-trib. There is no evidence in the quote from Cyprian that He believed in pre-trib. Jesus returning and rapturing us is a form of rescue for those who believe in a straightforward reading of Paul’s writing where we are raptured when Jesus comes back, too. Ephraim is the only one whose beliefs are consistent with pre-trib, and again I ask, what Biblical evidence is there that the rapture occurs 7 years before Jesus comes back, instead of when Jesus comes back, like the Bible teaches repeatedly? Reply August 28, 2018 Ron Raney If one does not believe in the pre tribulation rapture of the Church, they are getting weary in the faith, and may miss the glorious appearing of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and awake in the flames of an eternal Hell fire! Reply August 28, 2018 Varnel Watson they are getting left behind too 🙂 Reply August 28, 2018 Ricky Grimsley You are ridiculous Reply August 28, 2018 Louise Cummings Could be true. But if they are really forgiven and living for God. I don’t know really what would happen. Someone with more knowledge than me maybe would have the true answer. That’s the way I see it too Bro Melvin Harter. I would be afraid to take a chance. I really shouldn’t have written that part. But I really didn’t know if it would make a difference or not. It you was truly living like you believe He is coming at any moment. That’s how I believe. There has already been enough signed happened. To make me think He could come any moment. The Bible tells us to be watching, we don’t know the day or the hour. So be ready at all times. I would hate to be like the 10 virgins in Matthew 25: let my oil run out because they didn’t have enough oil. And their lamps went out. But when they cried out. Behold!!! The Bridegroom cometh. Five were ready because five had oil in their lamps and carried oil in another vessel. I shouldn’t have wrote that. But I didn’t know if it would make a difference or not. If they were really living for the Lord., if it would keep them from going or not, if the Trumpet sounded. But the Bible does say. He’s coming for those that are looking for Him. I’m look for Him at any Moment. I’ll write this to the ones I wrote that to. Just scratch that off your list. Because you to miss the Rapture. Unbelief will keep you from going. I sure don’t want you to miss the Rapture, because of something I said. But I really didn’t know if that would keep them out or not. But pleases don’t take that chance. Love all of you in the Lord. I don’t won’t to miss guide anyone in the Lord. Reply August 28, 2018 Ron Culbreth I am in the pretrib camp, however, I can find scripture to give credence to bother camps pre and post. As a professor once told me while in college, ” There’s nothing wrong with building the ship strong enough to be sustain in the storm whether it has to go through it or not”. Reply August 28, 2018 Louise Cummings And to me that would need to present ourselves , strong enough to put down any, and all strongholds Satan bring along. He will give us power to stand. And keep us shielded through the storm. Reply August 28, 2018 Michael Todd Combs I believe the rapture has been gradual and ongoing. Have you seen the number of missing persons out there? Reply August 28, 2018 Varnel Watson Ron Culbreth YES the ones left behind will Ricky Grimsley MAY have a chance too Michael Todd Combs missing you Reply August 28, 2018 Louise Cummings Well for me I believe that’s part of what’s going to be going on when When Jesus is about to come. Because He talks about how wicked things and people would be just before His Coming. Reply August 28, 2018 Varnel Watson Not sure if its as far as Terry Wiles called it heresy but it’s like that – one apple spoils the whole barrel It starts with wrong eschatology – when the expectation of the Lord’s return and pre-Trib rapture as the Bible teaches is replaced by post-trib or pre-wrath or some new modern teaching that the Early Church had not a clue of, then lots of other theology spoils and becomes rotten to like in the case of Ricky Grimsley and Scotty Searan who hold pre-wrath theory what ever in the world that means to start with with this in mind then one believes Jesus is not the eternal Son and the Father does NOT know all things both possible and impossible to be known, and the other supports socialism and does not believe the Holy Spirit is a person in the Godhead Trinity It is a mess… I mean come on: What happened to Come quickly, Lord Jesus? Reply August 28, 2018 Tom Williams https://www.facebook.com/100011111910075/posts/493651394348587/ Reply August 28, 2018 Ricky Grimsley Cmon. Paul and peter didn’t have that expectation. Peter knew he would grow old. Paul knew his end as well Reply August 28, 2018 Ricky Grimsley Read Matthew 24 for the love of god Reply August 28, 2018 Link Hudson In II Thessalonians 2, the rapture occurs after the dead in Christ rise first. According to I Corinthians 15, they that are Christ’s are made alive ‘at His coming.’ The pre-trib rapture theory has this happening 7 years before Jesus comes back. Or Jesus comes back twice, three comings instead of a second coming. What scripture can we base this on? It’s stuff preachers say, but where is the support in scripture? Those who argue for it resort to allegorical interpretations, like saying Jesus telling John to ‘Come up hither’ is an allegory for the rapture. Others try to turn the falling away into the rapture. In II Thessalonians 1, the church will be here on earth when Jesus comes back and executes judgment on them that do not believe the Gospel. Reply August 29, 2018 Scotty Searan I believe in a Pre-wrath Rapture taking place around the events that Jesus spoke in about in Matthew 24:29-31 and Revelations chapters 6, 7 and 8. What do you call your Rapture theory and i do agree with your theory that there is definitely is no Pre-tribulation Rapture Reply August 29, 2018 Varnel Watson rapture vs 2nd coming => 2 separate events Reply August 29, 2018 Scotty Searan I have read Scolfields version Dakes version, Jimmy Swaggarts version and Life in the Spirits version but i don’t agree with them I have studied the pre-tribulation theory and done research on it. Most credit J.M. Darby for making it popular in the 1800s though there was a couple of Puritan Ministers and some Jesuits that propagated it in the 1700s. I guess being a human a person would want to escape the persecution coming on the church that will happen in the tribulation before God’s Wrath is poured out I hope they are right but I don’t see it in the Bible without a lot of scripture being taken out of context or being made to say something that it didn’t say If pre-tribulation Rapture believers all right what have I got to lose I’m going to be ready anyway. But what if we who believe that the Rapture is going to occur later on then the pre-trib rapture what are the people going to think a preacher who taught the pre-trib Rapture Theory and it didn’t happen how will they respond. In my Life I have heard ministers set dates on when Jesus was coming back and some of them are popular and people respect their teaching despite they set the dates and It never did happen When you are setting a date you are prophesying and when you make a false prophecy and it doesn’t come to pass that makes you a false prophet and how come to these people still listen to these false prophets I do you believe and I premillennial second coming of Christ and I do believe m a post-millennial third coming of Christ because that is the way the Bible teaches Reply August 29, 2018 Varnel Watson https://beginningandend.com/what-did-ancient-church-fathers-believe-about-the-rapture/ Reply August 29, 2018 Link Hudson Scotty Searan Lots of good points. But I would not agree that interpreting the Bible badly and setting dates is prophesying necessarily. Predicting the future is a secular definition of prophesying. If someone says “Thus saith the Lord” and then falsely sets a date in the Lord’s name, that would be false prophecy. Reply August 29, 2018 Scotty Searan Troy Day Very interesting, though the debate is not about there being a Rapture. But the debate is when it will happen. Most of the early father did not teach a Pre-tribulation Rapture They mentioned Mid-Trib and what i call pre-wrath Darby is still the main one to teach pre tribulation Reply August 29, 2018 Varnel Watson Ricky Grimsley Scotty Searan who would you say are the 24 elders in Rev 4 and how did they get there? Link Hudson Reply August 29, 2018 Link Hudson The Bible does not identify them so I do not care to speculate. Is a reference to 24 elders supposed to somehow be evidence for a pretrib rapture when there are clearer, direct statements of scripture about it? Reply August 29, 2018 Scotty Searan Troy Day Could they be represented of the saints who was resurrected when Jesus was crucified? Matthew 27:52-53 52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. I agree with Link Hudson it is not clear and it is speculative to believe it represents the Rapture Though it is speculative that the saints could been raptured with Jesus Christ when He was caught up. The Bible did not say they died again. Reply August 29, 2018 Jeff Latham They weren’t resurrected when he was crucified, it was after his resurrection. Reply August 29, 2018 Varnel Watson 1 Thes clearly expains. What else? Reply August 29, 2018 Jerome Herrick Weymouth I became a pan-tribulationist…got tired of arguments with other believers…..nobody got it right it. That makes me a trinitarian, Arminian, continuist, and a pan- tribulationist. Reply August 29, 2018 Link Hudson Pan-tribulational: Across all tribulations. Sounds pretty rough. Reply August 29, 2018 Varnel Watson pan-tribulationists are like Pan-America. They are great at first but at the end they go bankrupt Reply August 29, 2018 Jerome Herrick Weymouth The motto with Pan-tribulationist is “With God it will pan out alright”. Reply August 29, 2018 Varnel Watson not if if you are not ready – didnt pan out too good for PanAm 🙂 no pAn intended Reply August 29, 2018 Jerome Herrick Weymouth Here is a story The Pastor of the Eternal Power of God church in Bell Gardens, Ca. Is a Mid- Tribulation preacher…One night some pre- tribber attended the service and heard the preacher preaching Mid-tribulation. They got upset and left out the service. And started praying for the church to close…And about a month later it did…These old Pentecostal ladies were patting themselves on their backs!!! But being young I went and looked this preacher up and to find out what happened? Well he said folks got tight with their monies and quit paying tithe. So he couldnt pay the rent. That’s why he moved the church into the garage. Right then and there I knew that God didnt close down that church cause the preacher was teaching Mid – Tribulation position. Reply August 29, 2018 Varnel Watson Good story Stay pre-trib rapture ready Reply August 30, 2018 Scotty Searan Jeff Latham thank uou Reply August 30, 2018 Varnel Watson so since they Could not be represented of the saints who was resurrected when Jesus was crucified who are the 24 elders already in heaven with John getting there ? Reply August 29, 2018 Varnel Watson Terry Wiles So what I am gathering per OP is that those who dont believe pre-Trib rapture 1. dont have clear understanding of the Trinity, the person of the Holy Spirit and the eternal sonship of Christ 2. believe (somewhat) in social drinking 3. promote unclear Pentecostal teachings and overall travel the wrong theological path Reply August 29, 2018 Terry Wiles Reply August 30, 2018 Mike Wrenn Can Jesus return at any moment? Or are there specific prophecies which must be fulfilled before He can literally set His feet upon the Mount of Olives and begin a literal reign over a literal kingdom here on earth? Are we as Christians suppose to be expecting to hear the trump at any moment, or expect to meet the Antichrist and suffer through his murderous kingdom? As a Christian, I’m expecting and looking for Jesus Christ as He has exhorted me to do, not the Antichrist. Reply August 31, 2018 Scotty Searan I hope you are right, because I do not want to be persecuted. But what if Pre-Trib Rapture is wrong? Reply August 31, 2018 Varnel Watson Pre-Trib Rapture is not wrong as to us having to be ready at any given moment for the Lords return. There are NO major prophecies to be fulfilled before the pre-Trib rapture Reply August 31, 2018 Varnel Watson Mike Wrenn Jesus can do whatever Jesus wanna do Reply August 31, 2018 Link Hudson Troy Day, how do you reconcile Paul’s statement that they that are His will be made alive at his coming with a pretrib rapture? How do you reconcile II Thessalonians 1, the church being here when Christ returns and executes judgment on them that believe not at His coming with pretrib? The man of sin is also destroyed at the brightness of His coming? Is there a compelling scripture for pretrib? Reply August 31, 2018 Varnel Watson Link Hudson I’ve already answered all this questions with the original Greek text. Pls review my answers and ask if you need more explanation None of these speak against pre-trib rapture Reply August 31, 2018 Thangsan Hisfootstep Personal reflection: For most Western countries mid-trip (to enter into little tribulation) might be the need but for some part of the world, where persecution, discrimination, and all those restrictions for being a Christian all their life long, pre-trip is the message that give them the most relief. Reply August 31, 2018 Link Hudson I heard Corrie Yen Boon said it made Christians unprepared to face sufferring. The truth of the gospel gives hope. Reply August 31, 2018 Varnel Watson Corrie Ten Boom – pls change devices you are killing it this AM Reply August 31, 2018 Varnel Watson Good point WHY would the persecuted church in China need MORE persecution and tribulation Link Hudson Ricky Grimsley Maybe JUST the US church would stay behind Terry Wiles Reply September 1, 2018 Link Hudson I heard a clip from a preacher who said no churches outside America believe in pretrib. That is probably an exaggeration, but there may be some truth to it. To be pretrib, you pretty much need someone to teach the idea. Multitude of people do not arrive at the idea independently from reading scripture alone. Reply September 1, 2018 Varnel Watson That preacher is dead wrong and will be left behind pre-trib was revealed by a divine Revelation Darby was British of course if that helps 🙂 Reply September 1, 2018 Link Hudson There probably are some British Plymouth brethren who hold to it. Do all the open vrethren hold to it or is itmore a closed brethren thing. I hear George Muller did not accept it vack in the day. Americans have exported the idea. so I think he was overstating hiscase. The fact that Christians in many of these countries have Bibles works against pretrib being as entrenched if they read them. Reply September 1, 2018 Varnel Watson I think america imported it via Larkin if you ask me Reply September 1, 2018 Link Hudson It is foolish if you think belief in pre-trib is a requirement for salvation. What about pretty much all the Christians before 1830? Reply September 1, 2018 Varnel Watson No one has ever claimed what you claimed to be foolish Most church fathers were pre-trib http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/the-ancient-church-fathers-believed-in-pre-trib-rapture/ Reply September 1, 2018 Terry Wiles I have found that the majority of Pentecostals in central and South America are pre-trib Reply September 1, 2018 Varnel Watson europe and asia too Link Hudson knows that well Reply September 1, 2018 Scotty Searan Troy Day Yes I believe in the Rapture But even the article author gets confused. He will say that a person believed in a Rapture but would not necessarily state when they believed the Rapture would be The article is about the Early fathers believed in Pre-Trib That would lead some to believe that all the Church Fathers believed in the Pre-Trib Rapture Iraneus and Cyprenian Reply September 1, 2018 Varnel Watson A lot of them did Their writings prove it Reply September 1, 2018 Scotty Searan Troy Day The Church Fathers he chose to quote . But it was amazing that Iraneus, one that had sat under Johns teaching had a Mid-Trib Rapture. Whats going to happen to those who did not believe in a Pre-Trib rapture that are dead, will they be left in the grave till post millennial rspture Reply September 1, 2018 Michael Todd Combs I don’t, not sure about anyone else. Reply September 1, 2018 Varnel Watson You and Ricky Grimsley may be left behind Reply September 1, 2018 Michael Todd Combs I am prepared for the worst, hoping for the best Reply September 1, 2018 Varnel Watson left behind may be no hope Reply September 1, 2018 Varnel Watson Terry Wiles we both know that Link Hudson is very well aware of the significant reach of the pre-Trib teaching internationally. Even the persecuted church in China has gotten enough persecution to have NO desire to go through any more Tribulation and be part of the pre-Trib rapture. What else is there to say? Reply September 1, 2018 Ricky Grimsley These discussions are fruitless. Pre-tribbers are willingly blind to the scriptures in this subject. You can’t really read 1 and 2 Thessalonians with an open mind and not see that Paul calls the rapture the day of the lord and then says the day of the lord can’t come till the antichrist is here. Reply September 1, 2018 Varnel Watson We’ve read 1+2 Thes many times in this group along with 1 Cor 15 only to come to the same conclusion – the Bible teaches pre-Trib rapture and that’s all there’s to it in Pentecostal eschatology There will be a special place in Nowhere, TX for all left-behind to spend time with Ricky Grimsley for the larger part of the Tribulation Reply September 1, 2018 Terry Wiles Troy Day Everyone that believes Christ could come today must be pre-trib unless they believe we are presently in the Day of Gods Wrath. If they reject pre-trib at this point then they must have more than a little bit of Romanism in them causing them to believe the church must do something to prepare the way of the Lord. Or maybe Satan has blinded their eyes that they might see. So be it according to their faith. Reply September 1, 2018 Link Hudson Why don’t you show some scripture to support pretrib insyead of accusing those who do not accept it of being blinded? That’s the problem with pretrib, lack if Biblical support for it and scripture against it? Why does Paul say those tgat are Christ’s are made alive at His coming and not 7 years before it? Why is the fhurch still here at the foming of Christ in II Thessalonians 1? Reply September 1, 2018 Terry Wiles Link Hudson. Because every attempt is rejected by you and others. When some are unwilling to accept that an Apostle (Paul) is capable of speaking about two separate events (our gathering to Him versus The DAY of the Lord) and then ignore 1 Thess 5:9 is someone who must be willingly blind. While we might be incapable of sharing two separate events in one setting, I’m sure you will agree that the Apostle Paul is capable. Too reject that possibility must mean there is some type of blindness. We, Troy Day, are looking at the same scriptures as Link Hudson and Ricky Grimsley, yet we are called ignorant for seeing probabilities that you refuse to entertain. The only response left is there must be some blindness because I know you are not ignorant. Reply September 1, 2018 Ricky Grimsley Terry Wiles the point is that Paul is talking about two different things the coming and the gathering. However, they are both parts of the day of the lord and in fact back-to-back events. Also both events are described by the day of Christ or the day of the lord. Paul certainly teaches that the day of the lord is the rapture in 1 Thessalonians Reply September 1, 2018 Ricky Grimsley In 2 Thessalonians he explains how the antichrist will have to be here for the rapture to happen. Reply September 1, 2018 Varnel Watson 2 Thes dont say nothing to that extend Read the original ask questions I will be happy to show it again http://probible.net/category/53/ Reply September 1, 2018 Link Hudson Troy Day what part of the page do youconsider relevant? Reply September 1, 2018 Ricky Grimsley Yeah let’s just say “read the original Greek” every time and disregard every English translation ever. Translate Matthew 24 for me and tell me why the rapture is close to the end of that chapter? Reply September 1, 2018 Varnel Watson I believe I already did that (Mt 24) and you run away. Do you want me to dig it out again from the archives? I believe your exact words were: I dont read Greek, and you discarded the whole chapter and run away from the discussion. When I second my question you answered you are trying to cut off facebook and spend time with your family or something. #BeenThere Reply September 1, 2018 Terry Wiles Ricky Grimsley Yes. And the point is there is another gathering to Him of the Bride of Christ, Gentiles and Jews have been born again in this DAY of grace. We will not incur The WRATH OF GOD in that DAY OF THE LORD. Reply September 1, 2018 Varnel Watson Stay rapture ready my friend! Reply September 1, 2018 Ricky Grimsley I don’t believe we will see the wrath of the lord. That’s one of the points that the pretribbers can seem to get. The first part of revelation is the wrath of man, then there is the wrath of antichrist. Then the rapture happens and the wrath of God. Reply September 1, 2018 Varnel Watson You cant believe Trump and Day of Gods Wrath is both right now Reply September 1, 2018 Terry Wiles Blinded people can believe anything. Reply September 1, 2018 Varnel Watson Only the truly seeing will see Him in the pre-Trib rapture Reply September 1, 2018 Brian Roden By that are you implying that one must believe in a pre-trib rapture to be taken up in it? Reply September 1, 2018 Varnel Watson I am implying one must be always ready to go Reply September 1, 2018 Terry Wiles When we come back with Him every eye will see Him then. Reply September 1, 2018 Louise Cummings That’s right Bro Terry Wiles. Reply September 1, 2018 Varnel Watson just FYI Ricky Grimsley Link Hudson John Darby translated the whole Bible from original languages in English and then in French. He was that great of a scholar. During my translation years along literal translations like Young, Weust and others I followed Darby – Darby’s not literal translation was flawless and at times put Young to shame (not Weust though) So I dare say that Darby saw things about the rapture in the original text that are actually there in Mt. 24, Lk. 21, 1 Thes and 1 Cor 15 – I’ve shown in our Greek discussion how they support pre-Trib. This is not discussion of logic or argument but strictly BIBLE in the original tongues. God bless! Reply September 1, 2018 Ricky Grimsley No one has seen the original tongues and people smarter that is put English translations together. If you can’t trust what the English says then we are probably missing more than just eschatology. Also I don’t know any scholar that agrees with you. Reply September 1, 2018 Varnel Watson OK then lets all read KJV and talk about Trump Reply September 1, 2018 Varnel Watson oh I know I know 2 of the finest Church of God scholars out there Finis Dake, Perry Stone and so many others 🙂 Reply September 2, 2018 Ricky Grimsley Neither of them were scholars Reply September 2, 2018 Varnel Watson http://probible.net/category/53/ Leave a Reply Click here to cancel reply. Cancel replyComment Name Email Website This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.